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Roytoy

New member
Hello all.
This is my first post and really first time putting these thoughts into writing. I would just like to get some questions cleared up and maybe a little feedback. I have been married for the past 4 years and with the women for a total of 8. We fell in love and have been for the entirety of the relationship. Now I've always found it difficult to connect with and have an emotional relashinship with people. However with my wife I didn't even have to try. She's the socilite and I'm the shut in and we make it work. About two years ago her best friend at the time just up and stopped talking to her. There were tears and screaming and so many emotions coming from her it was the first time in the life we had built together that I could not make her completely happy. She prayed to God to send her a real friend and I shit you not less than 2 weeks later God delivered us Kayla. Now when I say she was sent by God I mean it. Because of her we met her aunt and uncle who blessed us with a wonderful house and life kinda fell into place. Now for the past year and a half we have been living in said house with Kayla. So it's me my wife and her best friend. Now here's where things start to get strange. And I say strange because it was strange to me at the time. Like I said earlier i am a shut in so I don't connect with people easily and for good reason. I've seen my fair share of drama and I avoid putting myself in these situations. Now from the time I've known Kayla she has had a boyfriend. I don't really get along with him but it's my wife's best friend so try to remain civil. Around this past Christmas they had a little split and close after that the idea of a threesome come about. Not by me. I am not that guy who throws that right out there. I've heard stories of friendships ending because of them so I just kept quite. By the way alcohol was involved. So for a couple weeks everytime we had a few drinks the girls would start taking about what they could do and wouldn't feel comfortable with. I just tried to keep my mouth shut as not to spoil the illusion. Well the three some didn't happen and Kayla and her man got back togther however she seems less into their relationship. So since Christmas I see less of her boyfriend which is nice but here is the part I need help with. My wife has always had a bit of a bisexual side. She will deny being in to girls but within the last month my wife and roomate have had what I call very close to sex. I have no problem with that. Now i know what some people would think why am I not trying to be a part of it. And this is why. Since Kayla broke up with her bf me and my wife have opened up immesly to her. We involve her in as much stuff as we can and I have started to connect with Kayla. Not in a way that's I want to be with her but in a way that I want all of us together. We all have so much fun with each other and there is quite a bit more going on that is to much to explain. My questions mainly are how do I not ruin what is going on here. There seems to be a natural flow to this that is pointing to a three some. How ever I know living together and them being best Dr finds can add a complication to it but they seem to be comfortable with going down on one another. Its just all so new and scary for me. I want to be able to talk to my wife about this but I don't want to come off as to shovy or pushy. Anyone out there ever go through a similar situation that they can relate to. I just want some advice on how to proceed.
 
Personally, I'm damn close to a relationship anarchist. Relationship anarchy is a form of polyamory where the "rules" on how we define our relationships are kind of out the window...a friend might be family, might be a lover, might not be...a friend relationship might be more meaningful than a romantic "relationship" and all relationships have potential and merit. We are free people who decide the course of our relating with each other.

In my life, I feel very loving towards friends, towards family, towards lovers. Just because love might have a different flavor doesn't mean that it is LESS than another kind. I've given myself permission to feel what I feel. I hold myself just shy of full relationship anarchy, because the way I structure my time, I make more of an effort to spend special time (the most precious of commodities) with those I am in intimate relationships with. And I have a bad habit of keeping mental score out of fear that I'm not doing enough for them. With friends, I don't worry so much about it and I tend to only see them in large group social settings. They don't get dedicated one-on-one time with me. But that's just me and my life, not relevant to yours.

I think that if you and your wife and your friend were to really get your head around FREEDOM and truly talk about what each of you is feeling, what might interest you in the future, and approach it in a relaxed, honest way, you could safely have intimacy with this woman without danger to other areas of your friendship. Or you might say, "I don't feel safe doing intimacy with you. I would prefer to continue to just be close friends. I have strong feelings towards you in that dynamic and I am enjoying them." Having feelings for someone does not mean you HAVE to escalate and DO SOMETHING about them. It is ok to just enjoy what you have, if that is what you're happy with.

But your wife is a free person, and your friend is a free person. And will it bother you if they enjoy intimacy? I don't get that feeling. But you aren't obligated to participate if you don't want to.

Every aspect of a relationship, in my opinion, should optimally be looked at and negotiated separately. Living together. Reproduction. Commitment. Sex. Cuddle-buddies. Friendship. Chosen family. Every piece. And you can, if you are self aware and honest with others, have whatever combination feels right with no obligation to put up the rest.

Listen to your gut. If your gut says "wait" or "don't"...then you don't have to proceed. But it might be good to talk to your wife, and/or your friend. Something like, "I have noticed that you seem to be very close and very happy with <person> and I want you to know that it warms my heart and brings me joy to see you having such a good connection." And she might then choose to talk about what she's feeling and where she sees things perhaps going.

I also have friends, a few of whom (and one in particular) I flirt heavily with and the topic of us having sex has come up multiple times. I'm...interested...but not really sure I want to. My gut tells me that I enjoy being his friend, and friends with two of the three women in his poly network, and I don't want to disrupt that. I worry that what I am presently enjoying so much could change. I don't want it to change. Fortunately, odds of us finding opportunity given our circumstances aren't very high, so I don't have to confront the final question of "would you or wouldn't you?" with any seriousness. You on the other hand have a situation brimming with opportunity, so you do have some choices to make.

I personally don't see anything wrong with expressing your thoughts, even your uncertainty, especially to your wife, and maybe also to the friend.
 
Wow thank you so much. Btw I really dig the spork. Neither but both lol. A lot of what you said makes sense. Really all want you said makes sense. I guess fear is the only thing holding me back. The fear of rejection mainly. I don't want to mention this to them and it just not be the right time for it. The uncertainty is what is really killing me. Its not like there are scheduled times to have talks like these. However recently we just had one of those times where we were drinking and they started getting crazy and one thing led to another. The next morning my wife was upset when i told her what happened. After talking it out though she was just more upset that she couldn't remember not necessarily what she did. And then once she talked with Kayla they both felt immensly better. And I just want to be clear to this day there has been no physical episodes between kayla and myself out of respect for my wife. Having said that I'm not really trying to gear this thing whatever it may be towards a physical bond. I just see how happy we are all together when we are together and I don't want that to go away. It's not like we are unhappy apart. I don't know it's just really confusing for me because I'm usually very self aware. Usually I know what I want and I go after it. But this just isn't about me. I would very much enjoy your opinion and some more advice of you don't mind. Please feel free to ask questions. 😄
 
Hi Roytoy,

Can I ask, how does Kayla's boyfriend figure into all this? Does she have his consent? Does he know she's starting to get involved with your wife? Is he okay with that? As long as Kayla is still seeing him, his opinion still matters. Even if you find him to be a disagreeable person. That part is between him and Kayla.

Sorry to be a wet blanket.
Kevin T.
 
So here's the thing with that. She has not told him because he has told her in the past that he doesn't find it attractive that she likes girls. And don't get me wrong she is into guys she just likes to have fun. And I agree he still matters in all this I just think she's comfortable with him and doest want to lose him cuz he's "a nice guy". I use the air quotes because in the past she's been with some assholes and he doesn't get physically abusive. I'm my opinion they are both kind of using each other. I think it's more of a convience thing for them. But like you said it's between them and who am I to tell her she has to involve him. I don't even know what's the hell I'm doing at this point so I don't think it would be right for me to tell her what to do.

Me and my wife talked it over a little bit and at some point we are all going to speak with each other to find out where we all feel about each other.
 
So she's already cheating on her boyfriend by having sex with your partner, he's already uncomfortable with her sexuality, you and he already don't see eye to eye even when things are just platonic between you and her, this has been going on for a while but you still don't know how she feels about you, and neither you nor your partner have the courage to even ask her what she wants long-term with either of you. And you want to go there why? I ask, because this sounds like a car crash waiting to happen.

Whether her and her boyfriend are using each other or not, whether they have a relationship of convenience or not, whether you think he's a bit of a douche or not, whether you think two girls going down on each other doesn't count as sex or not, this is not a polyamorous set up. That would require the full knowledge and consent of everybody, and I don't see that happening here. Multi-person relationships requires a lot of trust to work. I wouldn't be keen to emotionally invest in someone who is cheating behind their partner's back, as no matter what the 'reason' is (too cowardly to instigate a break up, has no impulse control, thinks that just because she's not in love with him she doesn't have to be a responsible partner, gets a kick out of having secrets, whatever) that's just not the kind of person I'd want to date. I also wouldn't be happy if my partner was complicit in a cheating situation, as I would hope that they would have better judgement and be more compassionate than that. Multi-person relationships also require everyone to have good quality compatible communication styles. It sounds like you, along with both of the women involved here, could do with work in this area too.

I would recommend that both you and your partner step back from this woman, and let her figure out if she wants to remain with her boyfriend or not. If she does, but still wants something with either of you, then make sure he's onboard with the plan. This has so much potential for drama if he's not. If she wants to ditch him, and then date one or both of you, then figure out all together what the best way to proceed is. If polyamory/an open relationship appeals to you and your partner in general, then now is a good time to talk to each other about that without thinking specifically about this woman and how to tailor it all around that. There's every chance that she's not into you, or not into you in the same way she's into your partner, so is your partner going to be okay if you want an additional relationship of your own without her? You can start figuring out how you both feel about that now. There's a ton of information on this site, and others, and in books like 'Opening Up' or 'More Than Two'. I suggest you all start doing some research so you can stop yourselves sleepwalking into a Shakespearean tragedy.
 
Thank you so much for being so real. I appreciate it. And I agree with almost everything you said. And that's why i got on this site to get information and to ask questions. Truthfully I don't know what kind of relationship this is. Right now in know for a fact that my wife wants to be with me and I with her. Like I said earlier i was feeling new emotions and it scared me
I don't generally let people in and this situation is exactly why. I don't want to be the reason a friendship is ended however like you said I think we need to step back and find out what everyone wants. I'll let you guys know as soon as I do
 
Roy, I agree with the others that
  • Informing yourself about different possible non-monogamous relationship models might do you all good (I mean... there's a lot to learn... http://www.obsidianfields.com/lj/nonmonogamy2.5.1.gif)
  • There is communication missing critically - you will have to clarify what everybody wants
  • Cheating is cheating and is not cool.
I wanted to add, that I am actually not clear from your original post what it is you want. If it's not clear to me, maybe it's not clear to yourself, and then it won't be clear to the girls if you speak to them. My reading?
- you seem to want to preserve the friendship you all have
- you seem to want a threesome
- you seem ok with the girls making out occasionally
- you seem to want her bf out of the picture ... but I must say that is not in your power at all :(

So the questions:
- are you ok with cheating?
- are you ok with the girls having a sexual relationship even without you?
- are you ok with them possibly having a romantic relationship too?
- are you interested romantically yourself?
- case this particular girl is out of the picture, would you like to open your relationship with your wife? (probably can't solve that now, but you probably will arrive at that discussion...)
 
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I do want to preserve the friendship
I do want a three some but not if it's going to cause any problems. Not a high priority
I am ok with the girl's making out occasionally
I do want him out of the picture but not so I can vulture his leftovers. I want her to be happy and be with someone that's going to take care of her. I don't mean me and my wifeI just someone out there.

I am not ok with cheating
If it makes them happy to have a sexual relationship without me that's fine.
If we set boundries and I felt like an equal as far as my wifes love goes then I would be fine with them pursuing a romantic relationship
I don't know what these feelings I have mean. I'm unsure if they are the romantic kind or something else. Its very difficult cuz like I said I don't usually give a shit about other people.
If my wife and I found another girl and bonded with her I don't see why I wouldn't be ok with it.
 
Roytoy said:
I do want to preserve the friendship
I do want a three some but not if it's going to cause any problems. Not a high priority
I am ok with the girl's making out occasionally
I do want him out of the picture but not so I can vulture his leftovers. I want her to be happy and be with someone that's going to take care of her. I don't mean me and my wifeI just someone out there.

I am not ok with cheating
If it makes them happy to have a sexual relationship without me that's fine.
If we set boundries and I felt like an equal as far as my wifes love goes then I would be fine with them pursuing a romantic relationship
I don't know what these feelings I have mean. I'm unsure if they are the romantic kind or something else. Its very difficult cuz like I said I don't usually give a shit about other people.
If my wife and I found another girl and bonded with her I don't see why I wouldn't be ok with it.
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Oh dude, please don't ever refer to a human being as a vulture's leftovers in any way ever again. Ew! lol

Sorry...your choice of words man...that was rough!

You would like for this woman to have higher standards than "he doesn't hit me so he's a good dude"...especially since you see her as a great person that you really enjoy having in your "family" circle. You talk about not letting people in and not liking people much. Let me clue you in on a lil somethin' somethin'. You don't like this woman because she is just that splendid a person, although she might be pretty awesome in a lot of ways and I'm not invalidating your liking of her. But mostly I think circumstance brought her into your fold and created opportunity, and that's the main factor.

There are plenty of lasses out there who don't make poor life choices (bad partners were her choice, she is not an object to be picked up off the sidewalk) and who don't do cheating behaviors. A smaller number, but still some, are poly and could fit a similar role. But life has put THIS woman in proximity to you.

I am guessing that you are not very secure (afraid of being rejected speaks to that) and that insecurity and sometime shaky self esteem is what has led you to think that most people "out there" aren't worth your time. This is why you didn't consider poly until someone fell conveniently into your realm. I am only guessing. But I honestly think that's what's behind your desire to have a threesome with her, too. I think that you're a little bit confused or insecure with regard to your wife engaging in intimacy without getting involved in it yourself, or that you should try to somehow insert yourself (no pun intended) into the situation so you don't get any left out or "not enough" feelings. This guesswork is me asking you to examine your motivations a little.

Because it feels, to me, like a threesome isn't much of a priority and your urge to get involved is more of an urge to be a part of whatever else is possibly going on in your wife's sex life. Not so much this miraculous and special bond with this woman, even though it feels and seems that way.

I'd like to know why you feel that wife and Kayla being intimate is a natural flow towards a threesome? Has Kayla come onto you, said or done anything to indicate she thinks of you that way? Or just your wife? Is she using you and the wife as just a social support network and personal validation because she's dating a jerk and has a history of dating jerks? That's totally a thing, yanno...women with bad relationships often lean on others for support. And the alcohol is also of concern. I think that relationships should be based on respectful negotiations and communication, not "we got drunk and escalated things." But I'm no fan of the "liquid courage." If I wouldn't do something sober, I don't want to do it at all.

Again, I come back to a question of...what's wrong with just you continuing to see this woman as a family-friend kind of person, if you're comfortable there? That is not a lesser thing. And can you let your wife do what she's going to without trying to legislate her feelings to soothe your insecurities? Are you strong enough for that?

Good luck! Hope it all works out! :)
 
Roytoy said:
.....recently we just had one of those times where we were drinking and they started getting crazy and one thing led to another. The next morning my wife was upset when i told her what happened. After talking it out though she was just more upset that she couldn't remember not necessarily what she did.
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Just to highlight this: Your wife drinking to the level of not being able to remember what she did is called blacking out and should be taken seriously.
 
So first off i will apologize for the vulture comment. I was just trying to get across that I'm not trying to get her to dump her man to be with us. Everyone seems to think that I'm gearing this thing towards being with two women. I'm not. I just recognize there friendship and all of our connection that's all.

I can not argue with the circumstance part it does seem rather convenient . however we have lived with her for almost 2 years and i have only ever viewed her as my wife's bff . it's only recently that i started seeing her as my friend as well. And i yes I do not let people in easily but it is not because I hate all people. Its just that when I have let people in to my fold they end up hurting me and my wife somehow. Even the friends I have now, at some point I was really close to them all but eventually they showed me that they only care when it bennifits them. I'm the kind of person that if I care for you I CARE. To the point that it hurts. 2 years ago I cut off my best freind of almost ten years due to the fact I couldn't sit by while she kept putting herself into these situations where she was being hurt.

I'm a little confused on your point where life has put her in close proximity. Can you Please clarify that? There are lasses out there and like I said above earlier I would not be opposed to making a new friend with my wife but it has to take time. I couldn't be with someone I don't know. And as far as cheating people's go, I think we all screw up sometimes. I have never physically cheated on my wife but there was a low point in our lives where I was talking to old gf and my wife found out. We worked it out and she still loves me however the seeds of doubt have been planted and I think that's why I'm scared to bring any of this up to my wife. I'm afraid she will think I do not love her anymore and I just want another women involved which is not the case.

I will defiantly do some self exploring and try to find my true motivation. But like I said earlier the three some thing isn't a huge desire of mine. I feel like it would be weird if I as a man didn't desire it a little. And as far as intimacy goes I have never been as intimate with somebody as I am with my wife. I don't know that I ever will. I think that is something only people who have been together so long and have been though as much as we have can share.

I 100 percent agree with the alcohol thing. We need to dial that back and talk to each other. And it's not like the fact that she leans on us for support has not crossed my mind. Like I said my old best friend did that shit all the time. The difference is me and my wife also lean on her for support . I would say in any one area it's just nice to have a friend there that knows what you're going though and can be there. Like i have mentioned we keep a close circle. As far as out bond I would call it miraculous. The bond her and my wife have is and I will never say it's not

Your last question really hit me. I don't know if I am strong enough. That's what's throwing me off. I've always known myself fairly well. Hell I pride my self on it sometimes. I would totally be ok with her remaining a family friend but she is family. More family than any of my family or my wife's and that's no lie.

Lastly thank you so much spork. You have given me a lot to ponder and made me feel not so alone in this. If you have anymore great advice I wouldn't be against a private convo.
 
FallenAngelina said:
Just to highlight this: Your wife drinking to the level of not being able to remember what she did is called blacking out and should be taken seriously.
Click to expand...

Trust me I know. At the time she did not seem like it. I swear on my future kids. It really scared me cuz she seemed in complete control. We agreed that it will not happen again. Thank you for your concern
 
Well, you are thinking these things through and I really think that is the healthy and good place to be.

I'm glad that my messages are not landing too harshly. I'm not so much making assumptions about you, as tossing guesses for you to think about, you can let them roll around your skull a couple of times and see if they stick, or if they just don't apply at all.

So the close proximity thing, I just meant that she was your wife's friend, there was the housing thing...you did not have to go out and seek her out to date, either on a dating site or in a bar, or a social group...you put no effort into what is now building, it was not INTENTIONAL. It just grew out of association. So if you had more contact with a bigger pool of humans, who knows? Opportunity is a big part of any growing sexual/romantic connection.

I am always looking for patterns. Patterns in human interaction in particular that have cause unhappiness in the past, do not indicate that "people" bring this or that trouble to your door step...the common denominator is you. And your wife, I suppose, if we are talking mutual friends. Who initiated most of the friendships that later became a problem? Were there any common threads? Anything that can be done differently?

I know that many introverts would disagree with me, but I don't think that social isolation is really healthy...and I know for a fact, from what you've said, that your wife needs social energy to thrive. So it is important to examine what kind of persons you are pulling from the wide world into your own sphere and why. You talk about watching your friend harm herself. It can be argued that the friend you have now has put herself in some harm here and there. Is there some aspect to you/wife where you suppress your own value and draw those who have serious problems, or is it the age demographic you're dealing with, or are you looking unconsciously to rescue someone? I know one person who draws troubled people because he has low self esteem to the point where he feels he has to offer someone something, if they need help with life (a home, a partner) he can offer that. But finding someone who has their act together and no drama, well, he has nothing to offer that person. He doesn't believe he does, anyhow, and unless he does a lot of self work he won't. OK so you are nothing like him really, but I'm saying that even deeply buried doubts about our own self worth can wind up being self sabotaging and drawing people and hanging onto people who wind up being harmful in the long run.

I hope that is NOT the case with this present gal.

But given your lukewarm enthusiasm (seemingly) for the threesome thing...

Either
a.) You feel that you SHOULD want it, because of what society would expect of you, being male and all.
b.) You have that inner fear about your wife getting all into another person and you not being part of it, and losing part of her in the process.
c.) You aren't actually lukewarm at all, you just tell us and yourself that you are, because the last thing you want to do is come off as enthusiastic or (heaven forbid) pushy. Which could also point at the "do I dare want something when I might get rejected?" And if she rejects you...then things get awkward, not only might you lose a friend, but more significantly your wife might lose a friend...and holy hell let's remember what happened the last time she lost a friend, right?

So.

I'd say that if a.) is the case then fuck that, you don't have to do a damn thing because society says a man ought. You do you. If you want to enjoy a family friendship thing, then DO THAT. If b.) is the case, you are in danger of pursuing this friend for all the wrong reasons and it's likely to end with both women resenting the hell out of you. Chill out and let wife do what she's gonna. Even if she blazes with emotion for a bit, she will settle in time. The question to ask isn't "Is the other relationship a threat?" the question to ask is, "the relationship that I have with wife...is it good? Are WE good?" Because if you and she are GOOD, then no one and nothing can replace you.

And finally c. You want this, but you're scared. You're not as cool and calm as you want everybody to think. Best advice on this is, be present, be a happy presence, enjoy the company, let wife and friend do whatever and don't wig out about anything. But do not pursue the friend. Take it easy and let her give you clear signals if she wants more.

a.) enjoy life.
b.) enjoy life.
c.) enjoy life.

because no matter what, it's too goddamn short to do anything else.

You can start up a PM convo if ya like, but I'm about to leave my desk and computer behind for the day...I'll see it tomorrow. :)
 
Roytoy said:
Its just that when I have let people in to my fold they end up hurting me and my wife somehow. Even the friends I have now, at some point I was really close to them all but eventually they showed me that they only care when it bennifits them. I'm the kind of person that if I care for you I CARE. To the point that it hurts. 2 years ago I cut off my best freind of almost ten years due to the fact I couldn't sit by while she kept putting herself into these situations where she was being hurt.
Click to expand...

I mean this in the most caring way possible, okay? I tend to be a bit blunt, but please bear with me.

You may want to talk to a therapist about the level of general distrust you have going on. When I see things like "everyone only cares when it benefits them", "when I let people into my life, they only hurt me" etc, it sends up red flags about underlying issues. Whether it has to do with entitlement, self esteem issues, etc, or not, it's not something that should be left to fester. No one should have to go abou thte world, suspicious of people's motives.

On the other hand... "everyone only cares when it benefits them" is actually a factual statement. About everybody, including you. Please do not stay in relationships that are not benefiting you! Please do not expect other people to stay in relationships that are not benefiting them. That is the point of relationships: to make your life better. "Selfless love" is a deeply harmful trope, especially when applied to romantic entanglements.

Roytoy said:
I feel like it would be weird if I as a man didn't desire it a little.
Click to expand...

Pshaw, that's nothing but a societal convention. Plenty of people have no desire for threesomes, man, woman or otherwise. If you want something, you want something because you want it: not because you have an X and a Y chromosome. The Y chromosome is tiny and has little input beyond the testes and ear hair, anyways.

Roytoy said:
I 100 percent agree with the alcohol thing
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I'm glad you do, because there is also the important issue of consent. Be extremely careful. Your wife had every right to be upset: by any reasonable standards she would not have been able to give informed consent under the circumstances you describe. Also be aware of your lady friends' drinking: if she is drinking, do not escalate. Period, dot. Consent- moral and legal- gets murky as soon as alcohol or other drug use is involved. Where I live, your wife would have every right to charge her friend with rape, and you with accessory. I'm not saying she would, but please please please PLEASE ensure that full and informed consent is given before anything happens! I cannot stress that enough.
 
Roytoy said:
And as far as cheating people's go, I think we all screw up sometimes. I have never physically cheated on my wife but there was a low point in our lives where I was talking to old gf and my wife found out. We worked it out and she still loves me however the seeds of doubt have been planted and I think that's why I'm scared to bring any of this up to my wife. I'm afraid she will think I do not love her anymore and I just want another women involved which is not the case.
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I have a feeling you've missed the point when people brought up cheating.

You've said you're not okay with it, and are talking here about not cheating on your wife - but do you not recognize the fact that if Kayla and your wife hook up without the knowledge and consent of Kayla's boyfriend that they are cheating? Kayla would be a cheater, and your wife an active participant who encourages that. If you're not okay with cheating, how are you okay with that?
 
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