The Conversation

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MrMatou

New member
Tonight I had THE CONVERSATION with my life partner. Is not going well, tears were shed, I tried to be prepared as best as possible, reading "Opening UP" by Tristan Taramino. Running scenarios in my head.

I am so scared I fucked up bad and I may lose her (my life partner). I guess I may have over estimated the strength of our relationship.

Right now she took her car and left for a drive to process. Oh god. Help me successful poly people.

Tom

59 WM in a 15 year domestic partnership.
 
Sorry forum folks. I need to calm down and give people some more information.

I have always wanted a poly relationship. Having close female friends has always been a huge joy in my life. And I had given up on the idea at my age of 59. But recently met a lady I really like and want to get to know better, so the desire for an open relationship is back.

Its the one area of my relationship with my life partner that is missing. I have had NSA hookups, but with a woman I can't just be a fuck buddy. I have to know and like her. Hence my need to have female friends.

The life partner doesn't see any benefit to her in an open relationship right now. I explained if I am happier I am a better partner to her. She is free to pursue her own relationships, but being mid fifties she doesn't believe anyone would find her desirable. She has always had self-esteem issues, a problem.

I believe we can come out of this with a stronger relationship, but right now things are pretty dicey.

Thanks for letting me vent on here. I have no one else to talk to.
Tom
 
You are doing the right thing in having the talk before dating anyone. You are being up front and honest. Have confidence that actions rooted in good character will yield the best outcome for this situation even if it isn't really clear right now what it might be.

Give her time and space to process this new offer. You may have been thinking it over for a while, but she's just now starting to mull it over.

She will tell you if she is up for it or not up for it. Then you move on to the next conversation, which ever one it is. Either how to move forward together with it, or how to disband peacefully so you can move forward with it on your own.

Take it slow, and treat each other honestly and respectfully.

Hang in there.

Galagirl
 
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It is hard when one is poly, and tries to Open up with a partner who has low self esteem. It might even be impossible. BTDT. My (ex) husband and I tried it after 20 years of marriage. He always knew I was poly (though we didn't have that term for my way of being until 1999). I tried to downplay it all those years, but finally he thought he was ready to try.

It didn't work. He was always jealous of any man I talked to. Low self esteem. It didn't get better when we tried poly. He fell in love with another woman and just transferred all his affections to her. He was still jealous of anyone I met, online or in person. We kept trying for another 8 years. I had him break off the sex with her, though I said they could remain friends. (We had a veto policy, I don't recommend that at all.) They stayed in love, and once he and I finally threw in the towel, they became a couple and she moved in with him shortly afterwards.

You're probably going to put your partner through hell, since she has low self esteem and feels undesirable. Oddly, I am sure she is very desirable. After separating from my ex in early 2009, I joined the dating site OK Cupid at age 54, and was deluged with messages from men of all ages. Fast forward 6 years, and I still get messages from about 4 new guys -- per day! Now, granted, most of them are jerks and just look at my pix before messaging, but still. I have had relationships with 2 men lasting 2 1/2 years. I have had a girlfriend (I am bi) for 7 1/2 years. I've had a few other relationships lasting 3-9 months. I am currently seeing a man who has been in my life 8 months.

Anyway, my self esteem is good and I do put myself out there. My experience is different than your gf's will be.

However, I do not feel you should live untrue to yourself just to protect her. That will be the elephant in the room, and if left un-dealt with, will poison everything. I am so much happier living poly, and my ex is still with the woman he met in 1999.
 
Magdlyn,

Thank you for your comments. Yes, you really hit the nail exactly. She has low self esteem. I have tried throughout our relationship to help her, but as you know it has to come from within.

I know there are lots of men out there who would find her attractive and want to date her. I would encourage it, within the confines of the boundaries we set. We'll see where this goes.

The last few days have been pretty bad, but things about our relationship are coming out. I think this is good, stuff I/we can work on together. But she has to be willing to be my partner in that work. We both can be lazy when it comes to working on emotional issues. More room for personal growth, right?

Thank you again. Every comment helps me know I am not alone on this journey.
 
MrMatou said:
Magdlyn,
I know there are lots of men out there who would find her attractive and want to date her. I would encourage it, within the confines of the boundaries we set. We'll see where this goes.
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I only have second hand experiences on that, but I think it's not uncommon in situations like yours that the partner who gets asked to open the relationship be the first one to experiment. It may require patience, but if you allow that first phase, it might make everyone more comfortable with the situation than if you told her 'I want to go poly and, hey, btw, I've already got a date lined up'. The end result could be the same, but you could spare a lot of bad feelings, and avoid damaging her self-esteem even further.

My marriage is much more likely to end than to open, but over the years when we've had discussions about fidelity and jealousy, I mentionned a few times that I would think it would help if my wife experimented outside the marriage. And I didn't tell her that just so I could get a free pass in exchange. I really thought that you can appreciate your relationship better if you can have fun moments outside of it, but that make you realize you care about your primary.
 
I have a slightly different perspective than has been expressed here. I'll share it just in case it is useful to you. If not, please do ignore.

So - you express a desire for close friendships with women and state that in order to have them, you need an open relationship. I'm guessing that you don't mean friendship only, that what you want is a sexual relationship too? If not, ignore the next paragraph.

Here's the thing, if this is something you've wanted forever but been unable to have because of being monogamous, have you developed good friendship skills during those years? Do you have close platonic friends? Is your wife used to you going out and spending time with close friends, discussing your emotions with them, sharing woes and triumphs? Are you used to it? Can you manage to be close to others while still making time and energy for your wife? Or is that as yet untested?

Leaving that aside, I think that it is important to be aware what is being asked when a relationship is opened. You ask your wife to step into a life where she will have to confront fears, develop new skills and find new friends if she wants to have anybody to talk to about her problems. It is very likely that most of the people in her life right now will tell her to leave you if she tries to talk to them about struggles with jealousy or anxiety due to your new friendship. Does she have time, energy, desire for this newness in her life? Does she want to put herself through this? At the end of the day, what does she get out of it if she does? Your willingness for her to outside relationships of her own? Does she even want them?

Leaving that aside too. Yes, it would be good if you having other partners would make you happier and a better partner to her. But, do you have any evidence that would be the case? Would you still be happy and a better partner if your new friend became upset and demanded more of your time, wanted to spend holidays with you, was struggling with a desire to talk about her new friend without people being horrible to her for seeing a married man. If you found yourself pulled between two women, who were both upset to be sharing a man, or if your new friend went off after a while and found herself a monogamous partner, would you be filled with joy and a better partner then? Or would you expect your wife to comfort you, be okay with you feeling upset if things didn't go well?

Do you have the time and energy to educate yourself and learn the skills to do poly well? There are people here who are amazing at it - they work very hard at being that way. They make time for their work and put effort into it. Are you in a position to do that? Do you have past experiences that would make you think you will put the effort in? What have you worked at in your life and kept going with even when it was hard, upsetting and you wanted to quit? You are of an age that your past experiences should be a good indicator of how this is likely to go.

IP
 
IP,
Thank you very much for your perspective. Very valuable questions I need to ask myself. Lot's more to think about.

I haven't had a lot of close friendships, that is missing in my life and that is one reason I want this for my happiness. Even though I am bisexual I don't particularly care to have close male friends. And certainly not for a MM sexual relationship.

I also need some sexual variety and I want both close friendships with women AND the sexual component if it goes that way.

Thank you again for commenting and offering your thoughts. I love this forum and the caring and helpful people who take the time to help out others.
 
MrMatou said:
I love this forum and the caring and helpful people who take the time to help out others.
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I feel exactly the same way. This is a great forum, welcoming of diversity, the members are generally thoughtful, articulate and able to deal with differing viewpoints. I love it.

That's why I stay. I landed here after I started seeing a man who spoke enthusiastically about open relationships and polyamory. He was single when we got together and wanted any relationship he was in to be open or poly.

I thought it sounded like a great idea, possibly just what I was looking for.

However, after reading here and discussing with friends who'd been in poly relationships, I came to the conclusion that the day to day work of being in more than one relationship or of juggling dating casually with keeping a relationship going or the work of dealing with the ups and downs in my partner's love life wasn't for me.

I have a busy, full life. Lots of close friends, hobbies and interests, lots of interesting paid and unpaid work. I don't want to make the kind of changes that being poly would likely bring. I don't have the time or the inclination.

So, as much as I feel theoretically capable of loving more than one person, of enjoying going on dates, of liking more sexual variety, I'm not up for the additional work and time doing so would demand.

My partner and I remained together and are living monogamously. When we discussed it and I talked about some of the things I'd been reading and about some of my concerns about how poly would fit into the lives we lead and the way each of us prefers to relate to our friends, his view shifted a little too.

He'd rather be in a poly relationship all things being equal but if I'm not up for it, he'd prefer to be mono with me. He has my absolute blessing to change his mind at any point but for me, that would mean ending our romantic/sexual relationship and going back to being friends.

(We both have the right to change our minds about this but for the moment, it seems unlikely that would happen).

Still - I love this forum so I stay even if poly is no part of my life.

IP
 
InfinitePossibility said:
However, after reading here and discussing with friends who'd been in poly relationships, I came to the conclusion that the day to day work of being in more than one relationship or of juggling dating casually with keeping a relationship going or the work of dealing with the ups and downs in my partner's love life wasn't for me.
IP
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Thanks for commenting on my thread Infinite. Last night we had a calm, discussion and she said "I know you are not monogamous and having friends makes you happy" this was said with a kinda sad resignation. So I guess we may be moving closer, but it still doesn't feel good to me. I think there will be lots more discussion, setting boundaries, rules etc. So the process continues. I need to find a way to give her what she needs. She wants us to go back to when we first started out, the NRE, my focus on her. I can try, but sustain that for the next 20 years? I guess some extraordinary people can pull it off.

I really hear you about the work and time involved in poly. I have concerns I can muster the energy and find the time. We'll see.

Thanks again Infinite
 
she said "I know you are not monogamous and having friends makes you happy" this was said with a kinda sad resignation. So I guess we may be moving closer, but it still doesn't feel good to me.
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Guard against her wanting to go ahead with Open resigned or against her own will just to remain in your orbit. If this isn't joyful for her? And she doesn't want to Open for HER? Don't Open. Separate.

I've seen some people do that -- compromise their own selves because they are not willing to see that parting ways and being friends is cleaner and less likely to build resentments over time. All they see in the moment is "No! I don't want to lose them! I'll do anything to not lose them!" and they don't stop to think about what is healthy and what is not healthy.

I encourage you both to keep talking honestly and go slow in whatever it is you decide. Make sure it is the healthiest thing in the circumstances.

Galagirl
 
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MrMatou, I have two questions.
Why do you (two) keep talking about friends? Do you mean like fwb, or is even having a close friend a problem in your relationship?
What's your wife's standpoint, is she at least curious about being intimate with others?

MrMatou said:
I need to find a way to give her what she needs. She wants us to go back to when we first started out, the NRE, my focus on her. I can try, but sustain that for the next 20 years? I guess some extraordinary people can pull it off.
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I second Galagirl, but also I'd look into this. Does she want the let's spend together all of our time of NRE, or is it about the energy? If it's more of the later one, more of romance, admiration, love, attraction, energy boost for both... you could find ways how to renew that in your relationship.
This is generally possible through new and exciting experiences.

Now, don't get too hopeful, but if your wife is at least a little curious about sexwork, maybe it could even be some erotic workshop, kink event,... which may be a way to both come closer together and make new connections with people.
 
GalaGirl said:
Guard against her wanting to go ahead with Open resigned or against her own will just to remain in your orbit. If this isn't joyful for her? And she doesn't want to Open for HER? Don't Open. Separate.

Galagirl
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I totally agree GalaGirl. Separation is not an option. So one of us has to compromise. We need lots more discussion on how this can be a good thing for her too. I know this will not work if she is just giving in and gritting her teeth. I hope someday compersion will come into play for her (and maybe me). Time will tell. Thanks again for your comments.
 
Tinwen said:
MrMatou, I have two questions.
Why do you (two) keep talking about friends? Do you mean like fwb, or is even having a close friend a problem in your relationship?
What's your wife's standpoint, is she at least curious about being intimate with others?
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Thanks for your comments Tinwen. I am talking about FWB, because if I get close to a female friend, and there is a sexual attraction, I want to enjoy it with her. For that reason I have kept female acquaintances at a distance to avoid the temptation to become closer.

My life partner (not wife BTW :) ) feels she is not attractive (self esteem issues again). We need to delve into this further. I am 59 and she is 56, so body image issues are a factor. I want to renew our relationship and find some of the energy we used to have. Who knows, I may lose my interest in outside relationships. But I have always believed others can enrich our lives by sharing ourselves with them.
Thanks so much for your comments. Everyone is giving me good advice/questions/food for thought.
 
MrMatou said:
I explained if I am happier I am a better partner to her.
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And you are incapable of being happier unless you have other sexual relationships?

Does this work if your wife says, "I can only be a better partner to you if I am happier and I need X to be happy." Where is the moral and philosophical line here? What if she 'needs' a mansion to be happy, and therefore to be a better partner to you? What if she says she 'needs' a steady supply of alcohol or drugs to be happy, and therefore to be a better partner to you?

Isn't she really saying then, that she has decided she is not going to be happy unless she gets what she wants? And she is not going to be a better partner to you unless she gets what she wants?

What if she announces to you that the only way she will be happy, and therefore a better partner to you is if you agree to something that actively hurts you? Let's say you have a medical condition that requires a dry, hot climate, and she announces she will only be a better partner to you if she gets what she wants--a cold, damp climate that will aggravate your medical condition?

How would this feel to have her tell you she will only be happy, and only be a better partner if you agree to something that hurts you? Would you see her, in that situation as being a good partner to you?

My advice is do some reading on Viktor Frankl. And keep in mind the words the famous quote: Most people are about as happy as they make up their minds to be.

Then consider whether you really 'need' more sexual relationships to be happy, and whether you will choose to be a good partner to her if you don't get these outside sexual relationships. We always have a choice.
 
MrMatou said:
For that reason I have kept female acquaintances at a distance to avoid the temptation to become closer.
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Something in your words here make me feel a sense of sadness.

The understanding I take from your words (and previous posts) is that you don't seek close friendships with men (either platonic or sexual) and that while you would like close friendships with women, you don't allow them to become that way because you wish to avoid being in the situation where you would like a relationship to become sexual but can't because you are monogamous.

This reads to me like a recipe for feelings of isolation and probably dissatisfaction with the one close relationship you allow yourself.

Perhaps you are far more sexually attractive to others than I am and so haven't experienced this. But - to me, there are far more barriers to becoming sexual with somebody else than simply me being in a monogamous relationship.

The other person maybe in a monogamous relationship themselves (that's been the case with several people that I would otherwise have had a sexual relationship with) or maybe the other person isn't attracted to you (that's happened to me lots) or maybe your lifestyles are so different that finding time to get together for sex would be tricky (again, common experience I think) or maybe you and the person you like are seeking different things (you seek a FWB, they seek a husband) or maybe some other thing that makes somebody a potentially good friend but not somebody to have sex with.

To hold myself apart from people because of situations like that would, I think, have made me quite lonely. Instead I find friends and connections where I can - and for the ones where I would like for those to become sexual but for various reasons, that isn't appropriate, I deal with those feelings. Usually I find that the sexual attraction lessens in time if not acted on and what can remain is a wonderful friendship.

(I find most of my friends attractive to varying degrees. Some I would have sex with if circumstances were to change and others I wouldn't even if it was possible but I do look at those people and think how attractive they are often)
 
WhatHappened said:
And you are incapable of being happier unless you have other sexual relationships?
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WhatHappened, I understand why that sentence about "being a better partner" doesn't land well with you (I too think it's a little off), but it may well be opening up would be by far the best way to solve his own problems.
It doesn't sound to me like MrMatou is being inconsiderate with his wife. It sounds like he's +- effectively trying to problem solve.

InfinitePossibility said:
Something in your words here make me feel a sense of sadness.

The understanding I take from your words (and previous posts) is that you don't seek close friendships with men (either platonic or sexual) and that while you would like close friendships with women, you don't allow them to become that way because you wish to avoid being in the situation where you would like a relationship to become sexual but can't because you are monogamous.
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This, exactly.

I think it would be very beneficial if there was a way to solve the loneliness as an alone standing issue. I don't know if the sexual attraction still would be so overwhelming then. But even if, there would be less pressure. That's why I suggest to "open up" to new experiences (first). But I am very aware that I can't possibly relate accurately to the experience of someone double my age.

I takes months at least though to improve one's social network, and years until some of those connections become really solid.
 
If you already have a lot of female friends whom you are close to, your relationship already has an experience of you being involved with other women, even though it may be platonic. So, you already have an idea of how your wife will take it. Sex is a big thing, yes, but it isn't a character transplant.

If she's been fine with you having close women friends, she's unlikely to see a big threat in you wanting more regardless of whether she finds other partners, particularly since you've shared it with her before initiating anything. If you have a good marriage and trust, I wouldn't be surprised if she returned with more questions and willing to discuss. Particularly if she has male friends she is close to as well. Whether she wants to do anything about it or not, she may understand. I would say you need to be sensitive to her and make sure she is secure about what you feel for her and not merely accepting it in order to not lose you.

If she has not reacted well to you having women friends to begin with, it gets tricky. Also pretty distressful for her. And I imagine it isn't as simple as her finding other partners if she so wishes. Biology does strange things to women, both physically and emotionally as they grow older and sex may not be such an agenda item for her. It goes beyond body image. It is also about nurturing a space more than establishing one. She may not like the idea of getting into a new sexual relationship at all just to have a companion, given that men her age and waning to get into a polyamorous relationship would likely have no problems wanting sex. There may be a perception of her having to come to terms with sex to find companionship in the new equation you want to bring in. This may seem like a big betrayal in the dusk of life when she counted on sharing her life with you and she may not understand that that wouldn't change for you. If you really value your relationship, you may have to end up backing off from the idea, at least for a while till she feels secure about it, if so, and making sure she knows nothing happened and nothing will, if it distresses her.
 
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