Adventures of Amarna

DOUBLE BUMMER!!!

While I, on another [reply] window, was typing out my penultimate, [not entirely] frivolous comment, you were typing and posting your much more serious one. Then, while I was preparing a reply to that, a clumsy thumb erased the whole of what I'd typed. And now I see that you have logged off before reading the last express note. and who knows when you'll log in here again?

Start again. Behave yourself, Thumb!
Last night he got home from his date and after cuddling for a bit he wanted to know if I was planning on sleeping with New Guy on Friday when we go out, and said that he didn't think it would be a good idea before I could even answer him.
I only have 2 problems with this: the slight niggle caused by "after cuddling for a bit" (as if he were maybe trying to get you in the right mood); and "before I could even answer him". Even after finishing reading the paragraph (your reaction to that), my reaction was to reply:
"Communicate, communicate, communicate! One of the fundamentals of successful poly. Be open, be honest. Including expressing doubts, fears, and wishes. If he felt that you should go slower, he should be honest with you about that. That is not to say that he should impose that on you, but that you should talk about it. You were also right to reply that that [his suggesting his rules and his timetable] doesn't appeal to you, that you don't do that with him."

Be always aware that both of you are new to this and that care needs to be taken in picking your way forwards. Different strokes for different folks (2nd time I've written that today on this forum).

But then it gets worse.
Then this morning I wasn't feeling well so went to the bathroom and when I came back Mechanic was on my phone, looking through my messages.
And WORSE.
What's further is he lied to me about it and said that he was just checking the weather on it because his phone wasn't working right.
And WORSE!
He's always doing things like that, if its something he thinks will upset me he'll just lie rather than be honest. [...] In the past he's kept lying about it to the point where it's felt like gaslighting to a degree. I'll know what I saw and know that what he's giving me is an entirely irrational/unlikely explanation but he'll keep insisting until I begin to doubt myself or turn my hurt feelings around until I feel even worse for feeling bad/upset/betrayed because it hurts him.
But there are some good bits:
I tell him everything that would be important to him
I did some research on gaslighting this morning
A friend of mine was married to a pastor (ecclesiastical, not bucolic). She started suspecting that he was having an affair with X and asked him about it (several times) to his face. He denied it, told her that she was crazy, "seeing ghosts", etc. At the same time, he was throwing in her face the "fact" that he had more reason to be jealous of her that she of him, because of her [platonic] friendship with me. (Although I fancied her and - it later transpired - she me, nothing ever happened between us in that way, because she would never accept a poly relationship. Too prone to jealousy and attached to standard ideals of fidelity. [I'm very faithful... but can be so to several people, including several lovers.]) He was having an affair (with X - I've never been certain whether X's husband knew about it or found out about it later... silly me, he must have done: read on). She left him. (Actually, since they have 3 daughters, HE moved out of their church-owned house [also resigned as pastor and became - wait for it - a therapist] and she stayed there with the daughters until she found another place [several months later]. A curious situation to say the least, since she was an agnostic and the new pastor had to find somewhere else to live.) Her nerves were totally shot through months of being gaslighted and she spent months if not years in therapy... found a new man, bought a house together with him... and it happened all over again. Affair, denial, therapy. (i sometimes wonder if she'd have been better off with me. :eek::rolleyes::p)

Tell Mechanic that what he did is right out of order (you've done that). Tell him that you'd like to trust him, but that he has proven to you that you can't. And that until he proves that you can, you'll be changing the password (PIN, whatever) on your phone and locking it against him whenever it's not clutched in your grubby little hand. Harsh words, but he's got to get his shit together.

This lying has happened before and you have children. He should not let them grow up believing that dishonesty between partners is OK.

This took more than 6 minutes to type out. Sorry!

Can I give you a hug?
 
Because things are still so new I'm always willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and am trying to be especially patient while he gets used to things. I'm not planning for anything more to happen on Friday other than the coffee and walk that we've planned, I want to take relationship stuff slow myself and have told Mechanic this several times, it feels like he just doesn't hear me when I talk about that. I remind myself that I was researching and learning about polyamory long before I brought it up to him and feel much more at ease with pursuing poly relationships so I try to be sensitive to him.

That said. We have talked a bit more today while Mechanic was on his break at at work and he is still insisting that he was not reading messages. That he knows that he has broken my trust with past actions,that I have no reason to trust him and he knows that there is nothing he can do to build that trust back up, sounded like he was crying and I started to get that feeling that I was being heartless and unnecessarily accusatory. But they were there, open and obviously scrolled through. I've just dropped it for now, let him know my feelings on the subject and yes, will be changing the pin on my phone. I already had to change the password on my computer for similar reasons a few weeks ago and probably should have on my phone as well but kind of wanted to leave that door open to trust him to be honest. It's my own fault though, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me kind of thing.


Hugs are always welcome. :)
 
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. . . he is still insisting that he was not reading messages. That he knows that he has broken my trust with past actions,that I have no reason to trust him and he knows that there is nothing he can do to build that trust back up, sounded like he was crying and I started to get that feeling that I was being heartless and unnecessarily accusatory.
More gaslighting.

You were not heartless and accusatory; you were stating facts (found him looking at your phone while you were out of the room [he could've asked to check weather while you were there], and your messages were open) and defending your boundaries. You and the people you text with have a right to privacy. Don't let him get out of owning up to this and let him know you will not be gaslighted any more.

Hugs are always welcome. :)
(((((HUGS)))))
 
That he knows that he has broken my trust with past actions,that I have no reason to trust him and he knows that there is nothing he can do to build that trust back up, sounded like he was crying and I started to get that feeling that I was being heartless and unnecessarily accusatory.
Sounds like possible emotional manipulation on his part. If he's got a history of lying (and admits it), why should you feel "heartless and unnecessarily accusatory" when trying to deal with that problem honestly? I'm not a big fan of paying professionals for advice unless strictly necessary. But - given the ongoing problem, the fact that others' privacy is also being invaded, and his denial of the current instance - maybe you should both see a [poly-friendly] marriage counsellor.
But they were there, open and obviously scrolled through.
Then TELL him that. Tell him that you've got the evidence and he can't wriggle out of it. (Unless one of the children was at the phone just before, or you'd been looking at texts and then suffering memory loss [gaslighting on my part]... But doesn't your phone [only] show the last activity [and it wasn't the weather]?) He needs to knows that most lies get found out.

Have you ever read "Games People Play" by Eric Berne? I read it years ago, and can't remember if this game was included, but I can imagine a game called "Little boy wants to be spanked". It might be a covered (in the book) by one called "Cops and robbers" (or maybe "Police and thieves"?) [The "Robber" subconsciously WANTS to be caught. His "game script" remains unsatisfied if he isn't.] Might Mechanic be playing this?
I've just dropped it for now, let him know my feelings on the subject.
Gonna have to be dealt with sometime... somehow.
Hugs are always welcome. :)
Here's another one then.
 
They are 9 and (almost) 4.
My friend writes "corrupted" (feminist, role-reversal, etc.) versions of classic fairy tales that your 9-year-old might like. (If she is a he, then he might reject "fairy tales" out of hand... unless you've brought him up right. :rolleyes:) Click on the poem title (4th of my signature lines) and you'll be transported by the marvel of modern technology to his web-site. (Though that page is for older readers, there's a link to the homepage right at the bottom.)

For your (almost) 4-year-old, he's got a lovely book for 3-to-6es, but what you can see of that on his web-site has been sabotaged (by him, for copyright-protection reasons). It can be bought, but at 10€ (13€ in hardback) + 12€ for P&P to the USA, it's a bit steep. I'll ask him if I may send you the link to a secret web-page (for use of agents and publishers), if you'll promise not to disclose it to anybody. (Can he trust Mechanic? I'll have to ask him.)
 
More gaslighting.

You were not heartless and accusatory; you were stating facts (found him looking at your phone while you were out of the room [he could've asked to check weather while you were there], and your messages were open) and defending your boundaries. You and the people you text with have a right to privacy. Don't let him get out of owning up to this and let him know you will not be gaslighted any more.


(((((HUGS)))))


Thank you for the validation. It's exhausting second guessing myself constantly and I'm tired of it bleeding through into other relationships that would otherwise be healthy. You're absolutely right that I shouldn't put up with it.
 
Sounds like possible emotional manipulation on his part. If he's got a history of lying (and admits it), why should you feel "heartless and unnecessarily accusatory" when trying to deal with that problem honestly? I'm not a big fan of paying professionals for advice unless strictly necessary. But - given the ongoing problem, the fact that others' privacy is also being invaded, and his denial of the current instance - maybe you should both see a [poly-friendly] marriage counsellor.Then TELL him that. Tell him that you've got the evidence and he can't wriggle out of it. (Unless one of the children was at the phone just before, or you'd been looking at texts and then suffering memory loss [gaslighting on my part]... But doesn't your phone [only] show the last activity [and it wasn't the weather]?) He needs to knows that most lies get found out.

Have you ever read "Games People Play" by Eric Berne? I read it years ago, and can't remember if this game was included, but I can imagine a game called "Little boy wants to be spanked". It might be a covered (in the book) by one called "Cops and robbers" (or maybe "Police and thieves"?) [The "Robber" subconsciously WANTS to be caught. His "game script" remains unsatisfied if he isn't.] Might Mechanic be playing this?Gonna have to be dealt with sometime... somehow.Here's another one then.

I hadn't heard of that book before, no. So he wants to be caught? To what end? I'm a bit baffled thinking about that, I guess I just don't understand.


Thank you, I've considered going to counseling on my own. I've asked him to start therapy in the past and he says he's talking with an online therapist but I'm not sure if I should believe that, knowing how personal things like that can be I don't feel right asking to see transcripts or anything either. The only time I've gotten him to speak to someone with me was with our minister at the UU Church we attend and the minister has made it clear that while he's happy to speak with us and other couples about negotiating a marriage in the confines of the UU Principles, he's not a marriage counselor and should not take on that role, which I understand and agree with.

No way it was the children, this was at 5:30 in the morning and they were still deep asleep at that point. I did tell him that it was all left open and he still denied it. You're absolutely right that this has to be dealt with, I was just tired of fighting with him over it at the time and didn't want to continue the same circular conversation of here's the evidence and him telling me I'm completely wrong and it's evidence of nothing.
 
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My friend writes "corrupted" (feminist, role-reversal, etc.) versions of classic fairy tales that your 9-year-old might like. (If she is a he, then he might reject "fairy tales" out of hand... unless you've brought him up right. :rolleyes:) Click on the poem title (4th of my signature lines) and you'll be transported by the marvel of modern technology to his web-site. (Though that page is for older readers, there's a link to the homepage right at the bottom.)

For your (almost) 4-year-old, he's got a lovely book for 3-to-6es, but what you can see of that on his web-site has been sabotaged (by him, for copyright-protection reasons). It can be bought, but at 10€ (13€ in hardback) + 12€ for P&P to the USA, it's a bit steep. I'll ask him if I may send you the link to a secret web-page (for use of agents and publishers), if you'll promise not to disclose it to anybody. (Can he trust Mechanic? I'll have to ask him.)

Both of my kids are girls. :)

My 9 year old actually loves fairy tales and fantasy books. This definitely sounds like something she'd be interested in. I did some poking around on the website just now and will do some more shortly. I'm sure she'll love those stories from what I've read so far!

Of course I would respect his wish not to disclose any links to anyone. :) Mechanic is largely concerned with my relationship things with his snooping it seems, lol.
 
... I did tell him that it was all left open and he still denied it. You're absolutely right that this has to be dealt with, I was just tired of fighting with him over it at the time and didn't want to continue the same circular conversation of here's the evidence and him telling me I'm completely wrong and it's evidence of nothing.

Amarna,

This pattern you are seeing - of lying, gaslighting you and basically doing all he can to fog your mind is extremely unlikely to change. What you are getting now is what you will get in the future. It's not going to get better. It's going to get much worse. This is not the bumpy emotional issues any couple has. This is not the rough waters of trying a new relationship style. This is the leading edge of abuse.

I've spoken to people who have been gaslighted, emotionally manipulated and abused and people who've been physically abused. The people who were emotionally abused wish their partner had just hit them. The people who were physically abused sometimes found the emotional abuse more damaging in the long run. I don't mean to minimize the horrible damage physical abuse does but it is pretty consistent that people who have been abused often find the emotional abuse to be the worst part of their experience, the thing they have to do the most work to recover from. Some never do, entirely.

There is nothing you personally can do to fix this. This behavior is all on him. He is the only one who can change. And people who do this very rarely change. It's possible but extremely rare. Often it's because they do not realize they are being abusive. People who behave abusively don't think of themselves as abusers. However that does not reduce the damage done to you in any way.

The only thing you can do is save yourself. And save your children from learning that this is how relationships are. Again, this is not going to get better. You are in a relationship where your reality, your sanity, is always going to be questioned, to be undermined. This relationship will rip huge holes in you.

Please, I beg you. Break up with Mechanic. I know that's not easy at all. You have children (it's unclear to me if Mechanic is the father) and you are financially dependent. I really wish you had not left your job (the one doing the abusing often maneuvers so that the partner is dependent on them).
 
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Amarna,

This pattern you are seeing - of lying, gaslighting you and basically doing all he can to fog your mind is extremely unlikely to change. What you are getting now is what you will get in the future. It's not going to get better. It' going to get much worse. This is not the bumpy emotional issues any couple has. This is not the rough waters of trying a new relationship style. This is the leading edge of abuse.

I've spoken to people who have been gaslighted, emotionally manipulated and abused and people who've been physically abused. The people who were emotionally abused wish their partner had just hit them. The people who were physically abused sometimes found the emotional abuse more damaging in the long run. I don't mean to minimize the horrible damage physical abuse does but it is pretty consistent that people who have been abused often find the emotional abuse to be the worst part of their experience, the thing they have to do the most work to recover from. Some never do, entirely.

There is nothing you personally can do to fix this. This behavior is all on him. He is the only one who can change. And people who do this very rarely change. It's possible but extremely rare. Often it's because they do not realize they are being abusive. Abusers don't think of themselves as abusers. However that does not reduce the damage done to you in any way.

The only thing you can do is save yourself. And save your children from learning that this is how relationships are. Again, this is not going to get better. You are in a relationship where your reality, your sanity, is always going to be questioned, to be undermined. This relationship will rip huge holes in you.

Please, I beg you. Break up with Mechanic. I know that's not easy at all. You have children (it's unclear to me if Mechanic is the father) and you are financially dependent. I really wish you had not left your job (abuser often maneuver so that the partner is dependent on them).


Thank you opalescent. Mechanic is the father of both of my daughters, yes. I will be honest and say that I have feared for awhile that it may come to me having to leave him but always think that this time will be different, this will be the time he gets his act together.

I think I am (finally) beginning to understand that there's nothing I can do to fix things between us, that it's not something that's my responsibility. I feel rather embarrassed that it's taken me 10 years to figure it out. I want to write more in response to you...you've given me a lot to think about and digest....I just can't think of words right now so I'm sure I"ll be back to comment further.
 
ARGHHHH! Half an hour's typing wiped out!
I hadn't heard of that book before, no. So he wants to be caught? To what end? I'm a bit baffled thinking about that, I guess I just don't understand.
This is the half hour that got wiped out. So quick recap: Click on the link in my post to reach the wikipedia article about the book. The important things to remember are

a) that we're talking about dysfunctional games. They do not make sense (when observed in real life) to a healthy person. (But Berne - in an easy-to-read eye-opener of a book - makes sense of them for you.) Your [nearest] city library should have a copy of the book. It's well worth reading. It's worth buying.

b) that it takes AT LEAST 2 people to play. (Some games need more players.) YOU are playing some game with Mechanic. As a responsible adult, it's up to you to refuse to play. To refuse to be the enabler to his dysfunctional behaviour. The book gives advice on how to do this with each game "script".

c) that I'm just guessing at a possible game ("Cops and Robbers") that he might be playing. The book might help you find a more likely one. But a clue: Why didn't he close the messages page as soon as he heard your footsteps returning? If there is a game called "Mommy, please spank me", it might come closer.

I've asked him to start therapy in the past and he says he's talking with an online therapist but I'm not sure if I should believe that, knowing how personal things like that can be I don't feel right asking to see transcripts or anything either.

You're absolutely right that this has to be dealt with, I was just tired of fighting with him over it at the time and didn't want to continue the same circular conversation of here's the evidence and him telling me I'm completely wrong and it's evidence of nothing.
Sorry,but this might be another game: "Look, I'm trying to get cured!" I haven't got the book at hand, so I'm only guessing at possible names for the games he's playing.

opalescent thinks that there's little-to-no hope for him. That you should cut your losses and run. She might well be right. You're going to have to decide on that one. Tough decision. But please don't base it on "the marriage vow is sacred". You want to know what's sacred? YOU are sacred. YOUR DAUGHTERS are sacred. Whatever decision you make, do it for yourself, for them... and for Mechanic*, not for some piece of paper or words spoken in a church.

* It might conceivably be the worst thing for him to continue together. But ,to be blunt, if I were in your shoes, I'd put my daughters' best interests before his. (The pastor still sees his daughters. But it was better for all concerned for them to stop living with a liar and a cheat, who preferred to send his wife into depression and therapy than to own up to infidelity. OR to put a stop to it.)

Now I need a hug!
 
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Here's your hug MrFarFromRight. :) *hug*

Thank you very much for all the advice. I'm definitely going to see if my library has that book, failing that it looks like I can just order a copy on Amazon for a couple bucks used so will be checking it out.

Mechanic and I ended up really having it out last night. And I did get him to admit to his lies and see (I think) finally what he's been doing in our relationship. I'm not going to back down this time, I've resolved to hold him accountable for his actions and not just forgive and forget like I've done in the past.

I'm not moving out right away, though do know that may need to happen eventually and will do so if need be. With no financial means really and the debt from the house that would be split it doesn't make sense to (and I don't see how it could be good) move out with my daughters and live...where?...a shelter?...with friends (maybe) if there are any willing to take that on? My family all live 5 hours away in another state so that's not an option. I told him though that our romantic relationship at this point is over, I just cannot be involved intimately with him at this point in my life. I've taken the guest bedroom and have decided that for now, the best relationship that we can hope to cultivate is one of friendship, and even that is going to take quite a bit of work. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done to give him one last (platonic) hug last night and then head into my separate bedroom. But even though I'm running on just two hours of sleep now I do still feel mostly confident about this, there's always that little doubt though that I'm in the wrong here.

He says that he wants to work on things, to prove himself to me and to regain my trust. He does seem sincere, but then, he always does so it's hard to judge. I just feel kind of numb about the whole thing right now and am going to take it day by day.
 
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Oh, and I'm not a "the marriage vow is sacred" type of person really. We got married largely because I was pregnant with our first daughter and needed health insurance which I could get through his job at the time if we were married. I did love him at that point so that did play into it too don't get me wrong.

Looking at things now though I don't see myself getting married again to anyone if this all goes south eventually. That piece of paper is just not that important to me.
 
HUG!!!​
I'm sorry: this web-site will not permit a bigger one. (I tried cheating, typing in 9 where the script said 7, but it doesn't work. :eek:)

Not the same problems being dealt with, but on my friend's web-site, start off (YOU) with the story: Ella Of The Cinders. It might help to use this story to explain your new arrangement vis-a-vis Mechanic to your 9-year-old. (Could you give her and her sister pseudonyms on this thread? "9-year-old" and "4-year-old" sound so impersonal.) Did you get my PM?
 
I'm very impressed that you were able to see the pattern you have lived with in your relationship for years and take a stand for what you need and want from life.

As a word of advice, from someone who made a similar stand a few months ago and is working on rebuilding her relationship with her husband into something that actually works, make sure you are prepared to have this conversation several times. It is possible that my husband is just really willfully ignorant but I don't think he really heard me that I was tired of being treated as third best and that I was done expecting anything from him until I had a bad day, told my sister that I was done expecting anything from him and that he was basically living with his girlfriend. My sister told my mom that we were separated and my mom told his parents. I don't think he really understood how deeply I felt that our relationship was fundamentally changed and who knows where it will end up until that whole misunderstanding of my point happened with our families.

I can see Mechanic making a few minor outward changes and expecting you to back down, especially since it seems like that's been a pattern before. I just wanted to make sure you realize that you may be having this conversation more than once and in many different ways before he really sees that you are serious (mostly this warning is here because I wish I had known I'd be having this conversation more than once as I dealt with trying to find emotional balance at the same time. It was, and still is, hard some days and often feels like I'm breaking my own heart).

<hugs> I hope everything goes as smoothly as possible.
 
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HUG!!!​
I'm sorry: this web-site will not permit a bigger one. (I tried cheating, typing in 9 where the script said 7, but it doesn't work. :eek:)

Not the same problems being dealt with, but on my friend's web-site, start off (YOU) with the story: Ella Of The Cinders. It might help to use this story to explain your new arrangement vis-a-vis Mechanic to your 9-year-old. (Could you give her and her sister pseudonyms on this thread? "9-year-old" and "4-year-old" sound so impersonal.) Did you get my PM?

Thank you again, I responded to your PM but think it might be taking awhile to go through maybe?

I will read that story thank you and share it with my older daughter. Pseudonyms are a good idea. We'll call my older daughter...JediGirl (loves Star Wars so why not) and my 4 year old....Dragon (frequently pretends to be a dragon and even calls me Mommy Dragon on occasion, lol).
 
I'm very impressed that you were able to see the pattern you have lived with in your relationship for years and take a stand for what you need and want from life.

As a word of advice, from someone who made a similar stand a few months ago and is working on rebuilding her relationship with her husband into something that actually works, make sure you are prepared to have this conversation several times. It is possible that my husband is just really willfully ignorant but I don't think he really heard me that I was tired of being treated as third best and that I was done expecting anything from him until I had a bad day, told my sister that I was done expecting anything from him and that he was basically living with his girlfriend. My sister told my mom that we were separated and my mom told his parents. I don't think he really understood how deeply I felt that our relationship was fundamentally changed and who knows where it will end up until that whole misunderstanding of my point happened with our families.

I can see Mechanic making a few minor outward changes and expecting you to back down, especially since it seems like that's been a pattern before. I just wanted to make sure you realize that you may be having this conversation more than once and in many different ways before he really sees that you are serious (mostly this warning is here because I wish I had known I'd be having this conversation more than once as I dealt with trying to find emotional balance at the same time. It was, and still is, hard some days and often feels like I'm breaking my own heart).

<hugs> I hope everything goes as smoothly as possible.

Yes, I can see that exact pattern happening if I'm not careful. I expect that I'll have to have this conversation several times over, did even several times last night after he made promises and expected me to back down and forgive right away (admittedly because that's what happened in the past, that's my own doing unfortunately). Thank you for sharing your perspective and experience.
 
Mechanic and I ended up really having it out last night. And I did get him to admit to his lies and see (I think) finally what he's been doing in our relationship. I'm not going to back down this time, I've resolved to hold him accountable for his actions and not just forgive and forget like I've done in the past.

I'm not moving out right away, though do know that may need to happen eventually and will do so if need be. With no financial means really and the debt from the house that would be split it doesn't make sense to (and I don't see how it could be good) move out with my daughters and live...where?...a shelter?...with friends (maybe) if there are any willing to take that on? My family all live 5 hours away in another state so that's not an option. I told him though that our romantic relationship at this point is over, I just cannot be involved intimately with him at this point in my life. I've taken the guest bedroom and have decided that for now, the best relationship that we can hope to cultivate is one of friendship, and even that is going to take quite a bit of work. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done to give him one last (platonic) hug last night and then head into my separate bedroom. But even though I'm running on just two hours of sleep now I do still feel mostly confident about this, there's always that little doubt though that I'm in the wrong here.

He says that he wants to work on things, to prove himself to me and to regain my trust. He does seem sincere, but then, he always does so it's hard to judge. I just feel kind of numb about the whole thing right now and am going to take it day by day.

Good for you Amarna. While I am skeptical you can continue living with him long term, I understand the financial and living circumstances you are dealing with. You have to do what you can. I really hope this friends only relationship works out. And you deserve immense credit for taking action in a really hard situation.

Please read this book as soon as you can: https://www.amazon.com/Gift-Fear-Gavin-Becker/dp/0440226198 It is available in many libraries. I also suggest reading this in times/places where he cannot see what you are reading. I hope, hope, hope he does not escalate but that is a common pattern when a relationship that has abusive elements ends or changes, especially when it is not the person doing the abusing idea. The book is more about stalking but has some great information on paying attention to one's deepest instincts.

All the best.
 
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