Religion, politics, sex .. and other taboo subjects

It is symbolic because it won't happen.

Whether it happens or not remains to be seen, but the effort is not merely symbolic, it is a real attempt to circumvent a Trump White House.

The founding father (Hamilton) and first U.S. Treasury secretary once said that the body exists to ensure that “the office of President will never fall to the lot of any man who is not in an eminent degree endowed with the requisite qualifications.” By Baca and Chiafalo’s reckoning, it exists to prevent a Trump presidency. “We’re trying to be that ‘break in case of emergency’ fire hose that’s gotten dusty over the last 200 years,” Chaifolo told me. “This is an emergency.”
 
Hope that didn't bore you too much. I find history fascinating.

No, it didn't bore me at all. And thanks for the information.

I'm also fascinated by history, though some parts are more interesting to me than others, of course.
 
I feel like the press trying to be "balanced" is part of the problem. Instead of shouting, "This man is nuts! Get him away from the White House!" they are trying to make this all seem somewhat normal. They have to lean so far to the right to remain unbiased, they end up normalizing insanity.
 
The Hamilton electors seem to be leaning towards Gov. John Kasich. He's still wayyyyy to far right for most Americans, but he's a step up.
 
My stepmom is a hardcore Iron Range unionist Democrat, & she's said that she would've voted for Kasich over Trump, & maybe even over Clinton. Kasich did seem like the only half-sane person onstage at the GOP debates.

Heck, give me a Sanders/Kasich ticket any day compared to the trainwreck we're about to see...
________________

As for the "crisis cult" thing, I once was majoring in the history of U.S. religions. There are some interesting immediate parallels between NeoCons, Scientologists, & Rajneeshpuram.

Due to a weird set of coincidences, I wound up watching the first segment of Leah Remini's Scientology & the Aftermath miniseries, & the "Adam Ruins Immigration" episode of Adam Ruins Everything. Then I saw some Fox News blurb crowing about how Trump "saving" those Carrier jobs was exactly the same as when Blessed Saint Ronnie destroyed PATCO. All the pieces fell into place, though I've only started jotting notes:

The most obvious parallelism is the elevation of a Guru-Messiah (Hubbard/Osho/Reagan). If dead, a casual observer would think (from the way the followers talk) he's maybe still alive; if alive, he's so fully sequestered that actual proof of life is questionable.

This Glorious Leader is safely walled off from the commoners by an Inner Circle. Actually, there's an inner Inner Circle, & vaicious rifts can appear when some insider discovers he's just a commoner in a nice suit. The Inner-Inner is led by someone widely known to be vicious & mean spirited, sometimes even attacking people violently (Miscavige/Sheela/Trump).

There's always a mouthpiece. The GOP now has Priebus -- same job, different office. Mike Rinder used to be a propaganda minister for Scientology. Sheela handled the task for Osho... badly. (Imagine having The Donald as your press secretary.)

In all three instances, there's a few nuggets of truth (maybe even nascent wisdom) scattered around, but these are pointed to (quickly & often) as PROOF that seemingly any random garbage the Thought Leaders spew is just as true. And, weirdly, the followers -- no matter how rational they otherwise seem -- accept that at face value.
________________

Let's say that some scandal forces Trump to resign. You don't want that. Having Pence as POTUS would make things worse: without The Donald's shenanigans, everybody'd feel relief, & anyone Leftward of Newt would let the GOP run wild because the party's then almost respectable-looking. In other words, the agenda stays the same but is marketed better.
________________

Not so long ago, someone hereabouts said something like we need to respect the opinions held by so many of our fellow citizens.

I disagree. I can see no good that might come from supporting the deluded in their delusion -- though I'm willing to consider a thoughtful rationale.

If you pat them on the head & patronize their "choices" & "opinions" (neither term being literally true), in their minds you are offering them unalloyed support. They will do more of the same, & the situation worsens, & you helped.

If you stand calm & remain unwilling to let the political landscape be easily dragged ever further Rightward... well, it won't make much immediate difference. It's like trying to stop a heavily loaded train that's picking up speed: getting to a stop from 20 mph will take a LOT of track, even if you were to lock up the brakes & possibly jump the tracks.

HOWEVER, stopping is NOT going to get ANY easier if you take a "let's wait & see what happens first" attitude so the train can get up to 60 mph.

Putting a truck across the tracks won't stop the train; neither will a dozen. But maybe a hundred will get the attention of someone, if only by damaging a few wheels.

Given the degree of control the Right now has, I'd estimate that what they can do in the next two years will take at least six to undo.

And if GOP control of Congress & the states isn't broken in 2018, the four Trump years will take at least a decade to turn around & another five years to fix. We could get back to about where we are right this moment by, oh, 2035. Maybe.
 
Last edited:
@FallenAngelina I've been following the Hamilton Electors facebook page. It's run by a pair of Republican electors. They're a bit of a mess though. They haven't officially named a Republican replacement (and time's a-wasting.) They asked early on that people not "harass" other electors by contacting them--I did so anyway. Also, now they're asking for money.

Though Kasich has been brought up a lot, I'm guessing he hasn't agreed to be "nominated." Whatever they're doing, if anything, they seem to be doing behind closed doors. Seems foolish to me that they would rather everyone change their votes to some as of yet unnamed republican when HRC already has a huge number of electoral votes, but I guess the justification is that republicans would never, ever change their votes to evil Hillary Clinton :mad:

http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2016/12/its_not_too_late_for_electoral.html
 
And if GOP control of Congress & the states isn't broken in 2018, the four Trump years will take at least a decade to turn around & another five years to fix. We could get back to about where we are right this moment by, oh, 2035. Maybe.

Some things can be fixed when broken. Others, not so much. In my opinion, we're in the midst of a global existential crisis with anthropogenic climate disruption. There are going to be dire consequences with the level of atmospheric CO2 and methane even if we somehow miraculously stopped emitting these pollutions entirely and immediately. But if we keep emitting these pollutants there is an even stronger probability that we'll push the planet into an unstoppable death spiral which could result in the extinction of most species on this planet, including our own. This may sound like hyperbole, but it's not -- unfortunately.

We also have other (and often deeply related) environmental and ecological crises going on which can't wait for us to get through another presidency before addressing seriously.

Because our political system is now so totally and utterly broken and corrupt,
our only hope of anything good happening will probably now have to be as a result of massive and constant non-violent direct action ... which would result in stopping all "progress" of the sort which will surely end in catastrophic ruin for life on Earth.

Many of us have given up on "changing the system from within" and "getting out the vote" style approaches.

In other news, now's a good time to invest in those privately owned prisons. They will fill up with non-violent direct action people, of course. I hear their stocks are shooting up dramatically even now.
 
Many Americans know little about the diverse methods, techniques and strategies of non-violent direct action. This is largely because the mainstream (corporate) media has no interest in Americans knowing such things. Such knowledge would be a threat to their empire of domination, abuse and destruction.

Here's a documentary which shows some of those methods.:
Blockadia Rising: Voices of the Tar Sands Blockade
https://vimeo.com/59452444

Sometimes non-violent direct action results in political or court decisions which otherwise would never have occurred, such as in the case of the Keystone XL pipeline project. But we should not think of such direct action as always leading to (or directed at) -- or "being about" -- political or court decisions. They can also be about directly stopping -- halting -- destructive industrial activity, for example.

As we should all know, our governments are committed to economic expansion at any and all costs. They are fine with turning Earth into a dead zone as a cost of "doing business". (And they want you to be fine with that, too.) They serve big business -- e.g., oil and coal companies --, not "the people". In fact, "the people" are a terrible nuisance to them. So we should NOT ask their permission or assistance in stopping the further destruction of Earth.

______________

There are two basic kinds of non-violent direct action. One is obstructive direct action, and is illustrated by the activities in the above-linked documentary film about the Keystone XL pipeline blocades. In obstructive non-violent direct action, folks use non-violent means to prevent harm to people and/or planet (animals, ecosystems, etc.). The other basic form of non-violent direct action could be called "affirmative direct action". It is "affirmative" rather than oppositional in intent.

One could say that obstructive direct action is the "no" while affirmative direct action is the "yes" of those engaged in these practices. One can physically block and obstruct a pipeline project, as seen in the above documentary film. And one can also directly support, encourage and enact alternatives to an oil-dependent way of life as an affirmative direct action.

Examples of affirmative direct actions are, e.g., the creation of an ecovillage, the creation of a community garden, bicycling to work or taking public transportation.... Some of these are highly visible as "actions" while others are much less so. Some look like social change engagement while others look like simply living one's life.

But we can be sure of one thing. If the obstructive direct actions work against the fossil fuel industry, we're going to be needing a LOT more affirmative actions so we can meet our basic human needs without depending on fossil fuels to do that.
 
@FallenAngelina I've been following the Hamilton Electors facebook page. It's run by a pair of Republican electors. They're a bit of a mess though. They haven't officially named a Republican replacement (and time's a-wasting.) They asked early on that people not "harass" other electors by contacting them--I did so anyway. Also, now they're asking for money.

Though Kasich has been brought up a lot, I'm guessing he hasn't agreed to be "nominated." Whatever they're doing, if anything, they seem to be doing behind closed doors. Seems foolish to me that they would rather everyone change their votes to some as of yet unnamed republican when HRC already has a huge number of electoral votes, but I guess the justification is that republicans would never, ever change their votes to evil Hillary Clinton :mad:

http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2016/12/its_not_too_late_for_electoral.html

WHAT???

Electors are asking for money? As in..."we will vote for someone who isn't Trump, so you should give us money", asking for...

what what what WHAT??

I'm sorry but how is it not massively and profoundly illegal for there to be any money changing hands involving an elector where there is even the remotest appearance of bribery or influence? And if it's not massively and profoundly illegal, where is the GoFundMe for people to raise several billion dollars so that we can properly bribe ALL of the electors to not vote for Trump?

I'm sorry, I'm just a bit uh...floored right now...it sounds like a scam, are you sure the Facebook page has anything to do with any actual electors?

You know it would actually be a really damn good scam to tell people that you're an elector (when you're not) and solicit bribes to not vote for Trump. Or to vote for him. Or whatever. Fuck it, at this point, we're all screwed anyways, *throws up hands* let's roll the circus music and bring out the carnies and do this properly...
 
The Hamilton Electors is some sort of an organization, which -- like organizations generally -- has some expenses to cover (exactly what, I don't know. Presumably they are seeking to influence the members of the Electoral College, and "influence" isn't necessarily bribery).

They want money to operate as an organization. Perhaps they should be much more clear on how they intent to use that money.

https://hamiltonelectors.nationbuilder.com/donate
 
The Hamilton Electors is some sort of an organization... Perhaps they should be much more clear on how they intent to use that money.
The Hamilton Electors are electors. They are going to be voting against their state and some states fine electors that do this, so the funds are to offset the fines. There are also lawsuits in the works challenging the fining of electors as unconstitutional, so the money is also a legal defense fund and for court fees. It does not go to the electors themselves.


@FallenAngelina I've been following the Hamilton Electors facebook page. It's run by a pair of Republican electors.
The Hamilton Electors are (as of now) seven Democrats. They need 37 Republican electors to turn in order to "deny (Trump) the presidency and send the final decision to the House of Representatives." This is why the Hamilton Electors are not going to be casting their votes for Clinton. The object is to build a coalition between Democrat and Republican electors and in order to do so, an alternate Republican must be chosen (since no Republicans would back Clinton.) Electors do not vote publicly, so we actually won't know how many electors joined this effort until the votes are read in a joint session of Congress on Jan. 6, 2017.


.it sounds like a scam, are you sure the Facebook page has anything to do with any actual electors?
There's quite a bit about the Hamilton Electors in the news if you're interested to learn about who these people are. This is from their "About" on their Facebook page:
"#HamiltonElectors are patriots participating in the electoral process who believe that Presidential Electors are responsible for safeguarding our nation’s future and ensuring that the next President is the best person for the job. As Electors, we honor Alexander Hamilton’s vision that the Electoral College should act as a Constitutional failsafe against those lacking requisite qualifications, ability, and virtue from becoming President. Guided by the Framers’ original intent, we’re compelled this year to do our job as Electors, to put party aside, and to put America first. So we hope that Electors from both red and blue states will answer the Founding Fathers’ call, deliberate, and unite behind an responsible Republican Candidate: the Hamilton Candidate. Americans of all political persuasions are invited to join us and show their support online, in their communities, and at their statehouse on December 19 when the Electoral College officially meets."

Three minute video explaining the intent of the Hamilton Electors.
 
Last edited:
First Republican elector comes forward today in the New York Times.

"I am a Republican presidential elector, one of the 538 people asked to choose officially the president of the United States...Presidential electors have the legal right and a constitutional duty to vote their conscience. I believe electors should unify behind a Republican alternative, an honorable and qualified man or woman such as Gov. John Kasich of Ohio...."
(more on the linked page)
 
First Republican elector comes forward today in the New York Times.

"I am a Republican presidential elector, one of the 538 people asked to choose officially the president of the United States...Presidential electors have the legal right and a constitutional duty to vote their conscience. I believe electors should unify behind a Republican alternative, an honorable and qualified man or woman such as Gov. John Kasich of Ohio...."
(more on the linked page)



Let's hope this gains a lot of momentum fast.


___________________________________________


Unrelatedly -- but related to earlier comments from me --, here's a good source of sources for info on non-violent direct action.:

http://mettacenter.org/nonviolent-direct-action/
 
An electoral college intervention. Too good to be true ...
 
Right.

I didn't ask if the Hamilton electors were legit. I asked if we are sure that the Facebook page with a link to some sort of funding thing is legit. What is to stop ME from RIGHT NOW setting up a fake page on Facebook saying "I'm a Hamilton elector, click here to pay my fines."

??

I always get a little side-eye going on when money comes into it.

I have a hard time believing that it is legally ok for someone to say, "I am an elector, and my vote isn't set in stone" and for there to be a means for people to give them money, and where exactly is the protection against bribing electors?

It is not legal, I'm sure, for someone to stand outside of a polling place and offer regular voters $10 cash to cast a vote one way or another.

It could not, in a world of any sort of sanity whatsoever, be legal for electors, of which there be only the 538, with such a higher concentration of power, to be raising money "for legal fines and legal fees" with no checks or oversight, how in the actual sam hill can anyone know for a FACT who is getting money that is raised...? I would think that even the appearance of POSSIBLE influence would be enough to invalidate someone's position as an elector. I just can't wrap my head around this.

And I'm seeing, "hey no big deal it's for the lawyers and fines." HOW DO WE KNOW, EXACTLY? Into whose hands is the money going?

I don't need someone to explain the damn concept of the damn Hamilton electors to me, I get it. I need to understand how this whole money thing is remotely ok. How ironclad is this fundraising effort against claims of malfeasance? And what happens if somebody (coughTrumpcough) says that they took bribes? Could their votes be invalidated somehow?
 
Holy smokes. Wow.

So I read that Baca, the guy who has started the nonprofit political org, filed the docs to raise money, says that well he didn't want to do it this way, but people were trying to throw money at him through the website...

OF COURSE THEY WERE.

Um, I have had the thought myself, "What would I pay to have this outcome somehow be different and Trump not be our next Prez...?" Of COURSE people were offering money. And now, apparently, they are going to take it.

I'm sorry but this still freaks me out. You know what it feels like?? A member of a jury, for a trial of a famous person that everyone thinks is guilty, "fundraising" during the trial because he had to buy a suit to wear to court or something. Just...I don't care if the reasons are legit, and if it's our only hope for a not Trump presidency...this has alarm bells and red flags going off in my mind.

What happens if they raise more than they need for "legal fees and fines?"

EDIT: The only thing I can find is that it is a federal and state felony, in general, to harass, threaten, bribe, or coerce anyone to register to vote, or for actually voting, or to receive a bribe of this sort. Punishable by a $10K fine and jailtime. I would not take the chance. Ultimately, people are prepared to pony up money BECAUSE the Hamilton electors are prepared to vote a certain way. If their actions actually have any effect, people could be scrutinized and possibly prosecuted. It's risky.
 
Last edited:
Worst case scenario: Trump sues to get those electors votes thrown out. Most likely scenario: Not enough votes for secret republican. It goes to House. House votes Trump. Best case scenario: Asteroid hits Earth and we all die.
 
Back
Top