How to communicate in a V? Lying?

[Pia]

Hello guys,

Most of my life I've been mono, but I've done poly as well in one previous relationship, and I like it more and more.

So 10 months ago I met this wonderful man (let's call him S) who has partner (let's call her A) in an open relationship. S and I fell in love. Hard. I've met A and she seems like a nice person, I can see we have some things in common.

So for the last two months, we have been in the process of figuring things out. S says he loves me, he really wants me in his life and he wants to be with me and A too, in a FMF V situation.

They had an open relationship before, but never a V, so he never had another partner before, they did have sex with other people. Though she never wanted to know about it, so S had to keep things to himself. But S always wanted to know about, so A was supposed to tell him when she was involved with others.

I am fine with the V model. Personally, I am monoamorous, so I think I can only be emotionally connected to S but having multiple sexual partners, that is what I want. I've never experienced loving two people at the same time (who knows, maybe one day I will), but I can totally understand that he does love 2 people at the same time and I'm sincerely happy for him. Also, I like open communication, so I like knowing when my partner dates other people.

So I've explained what S wants, I've explained what I want, and for me it's compatible. The issue here is I don't know what A wants. She seems to be having a real hard time accepting that her partner wants a V model, she seems to be having a hard time accepting me all together. We've all met a few times, and she had some rules, which I was more than happy to respect, like, she didn't want us being affectionate in front of her, which is fair enough. And I've tried to take things really slow so she can feel comfortable.

I've suggested a few times now for the three of us to sit down and talk together, she always declined. Finally, she accepted and yesterday we all talked. It went nothing like I hoped.

In the middle of this, out of the blue, A announces that she has another boyfriend. Shocking. It completely surprised me and S, of course. She said that she's had this secret boyfriend for 4 months now. When she said it, she looked at S in a way that made me feel that she wanted to get some kind of reaction out of him, it felt to me that she wanted to upset him. I was there quiet and it got very awkward. I asked them if they preferred for me to leave so they could talk it over. A said that she didn't want to talk anymore and she left.

Then S and I talked things over. I was trying to comfort him and to gauge the situation. He said that A had done this once before, that he discovered that she was hiding 2 parallel relationships, and it took a lot and a toll on him to overcome that, but that he manage to do it. I was kind of shocked now knowing this information. Didn't know what to think. Still don't.

On top of it all, S called me just now and told me he talked to A, and not only she was hiding this from him, but she is also lying to the new boyfriend, who has no idea she has a partner. And S also said A is a pathological liar. I'm so confused. So very, very confused.

I love this man. I want to be with him and I want him to be happy. But now entering in a V with A seems kind of crazy. Pathological liar? Hiding relationships, lying to the men that she is seeing? I am concerned and I don't really know what to do. For me, open communication is so essential in poly. I've said this to S many times. I don't think I can have that with A, I don't think S can have that with A, it doesn't seem like they have it so far.

Any thoughts on what to do? Can a V like this work? Is it even a V? And I also keep thinking about that poor guy that she's lying to. It makes me so uncomfortable all these lies. Have you ever been in a situation like this? When you wanted some type of communication for the relationship but somebody else didn't? I can understand if she wants to be in the dark, but lying is something else. S said that he doesn't trust A, and how am I gonna trust her? How does he stay in a relationship with someone he doesn't trust?

Please any comments, any at all, are more than welcome.

Thank you!

Pia

 

[GalaGirl]

I am sorry you struggle.

I love this man. I want to be with him and I want him to be happy. But now entering in a V with A seems kind of crazy. Pathological liar? Hiding relationships, lying to the men that she is seeing? I am concerned and I don't really know what to do. For me, open communication is so essential in poly. I've said this to S many times. I don't think I can have that with A, I don't think S can have that with A, it doesn't seem like they have it so far.

In your shoes? I would tell S that I was up for dating him in a V situation that had clear and open communication. But since he doesn't have that with A, and he's not giving it to ME, I am bowing out of this V. It does not meet my personal standard for how I want to be relating/dating.

I might like him whole lot. But I like me best. And I don't want to deal in a mess and put myself through hell. I'd call it bullet dodged.

S said that he doesn't trust A, and how am I gonna trust her? How does he stay in a relationship with someone he doesn't trust?

That's the thing.

• He's the one picking out to be with untrustworthy partner A.
• He said that A had done this once before, that he discovered that she was hiding 2 parallel relationships, and it took a lot and a toll on him to overcome that, but that he manage to do it. You were kind of shocked now knowing this information. (Why learning it just now? Why'd he leave this out before? How's this open communication? How's that build trust between you and S?)
• He's the one who did not tell you he dates a pathological liar until after TEN MONTHS had gone by. (Why learning it just now? Why'd he leave this out before? How's this open communication? How's that build trust between you and S?)

You (pick/do not pick) him out to date when he behaves like this. I would say... don't pick him.

This is not one of those "win - lose" choices. This is one of those "this stinks and that stinks, so which stinks LEAST?" choices.

It stinks to end it with him because you liked him. But to me that stinks LESS than choosing to keep hanging around in a V with A in the mix and with S leaving things out so long.

I don't need or want extended drama. This amount of drama is bad enough.

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Pia,

If you decide to keep dating S (in a V shape), I suggest sealing yourself off from A so that only S deals with A. Tell S you don't want to hear about A. And you don't want to be around her in person. All you need to know about her is safer sex information, is S using a condom with A and is A using a condom with others.

Of course, you don't have to keep dating S. That's something to think about.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[anamikanon]

So I've explained what S wants, I've explained what I want, and for me it's compatible. The issue here is I don't know what A wants. She seems to be having a real hard time accepting that her partner wants a V model, she seems to be having a hard time accepting me all together. We've all met a few times, and she had some rules, which I was more than happy to respect, like, she didn't want us being affectionate in front of her, which is fair enough. And I've tried to take things really slow so she can feel comfortable.

This is not your responsibility. S needs to be a better hinge. Also she doesn't have to accept that her partner wants a V whether she likes it or not.

I've suggested a few times now for the three of us to sit down and talk together, she always declined. Finally, she accepted and yesterday we all talked. It went nothing like I hoped.

This probably went badly because it wasn't your place to figure out her relationship with S to begin with and she already wasn't interested in accepting you. She declined repeatedly, then when you persisted, accepted and torpedoed it.

In the middle of this, out of the blue, A announces that she has another boyfriend. Shocking. It completely surprised me and S, of course. She said that she's had this secret boyfriend for 4 months now. When she said it, she looked at S in a way that made me feel that she wanted to get some kind of reaction out of him, it felt to me that she wanted to upset him. I was there quiet and it got very awkward. I asked them if they preferred for me to leave so they could talk it over. A said that she didn't want to talk anymore and she left.

This is where it gets interesting. Her manner of dealing with her issues with you and likely her sloppy hinge partner. Basically she tried to turn the tables on him hoping to hurt him the way she feels hurt. Likely didn't work. Because this sounds like a drama couple more than resolving couple.

Then S and I talked things over. I was trying to comfort him and to gauge the situation. He said that A had done this once before, that he discovered that she was hiding 2 parallel relationships, and it took a lot and a toll on him to overcome that, but that he manage to do it. I was kind of shocked now knowing this information. Didn't know what to think. Still don't.

Instance 1 of S telling you something that shows her in bad light in the wake of a situation you initiated to basically spoon feed his job to him, which A torpedoed and probably made him feel like he lost face (as A intended - she knows him).

On top of it all, S called me just now and told me he talked to A, and not only she was hiding this from him, but she is also lying to the new boyfriend, who has no idea she has a partner. And S also said A is a pathological liar. I'm so confused. So very, very confused.

Just in case you didn't get the message that she was the villain. Instance 2

BTW, so far, none of this is actually your business.

Also this appears to be a couple in a mutually satisfying relationship of duplicity and scoring points off each other and playing the martyr and so on.

I love this man. I want to be with him and I want him to be happy.

You've already been with him happily for 10 months. Only he can make himself happy. You can't do that (and I don't think he is inclined, going by your post. He seems to thrive on "poor me"). You seem to have enjoyed him for 10 months and are fine with him even now and very keen on tangling with A even when she isn't interested. I think you are gravitating to all the high drama and will probably do just fine.

But now entering in a V with A seems kind of crazy. Pathological liar? Hiding relationships, lying to the men that she is seeing? I am concerned and I don't really know what to do.

You should be more worried about what S does, given that you're in a relationship with him and not A. What is he going to say about you to someone else if you upstage him? [Note: the issue here between the couple seems to be upstaging - going by your post]

For me, open communication is so essential in poly. I've said this to S many times. I don't think I can have that with A, I don't think S can have that with A, it doesn't seem like they have it so far.

I don't understand your fixation with A. As the other side of the V, you aren't in a relationship with her, she doesn't appear to want anything to do with you, so obviously you can't have communication with her - but why is this a problem for you?

Any thoughts on what to do? Can a V like this work?

It is already working for the last 10 months. Will it work like a mature relationship with people respecting boundaries and compersion and what not? Unlikely, but I don't think anyone is actually seeking all that here. You and S are content with what you have. S is with A in spite of the apparent sins he's now telling you about in her past as well. You are getting to make gracious overtures going out of your way to some poor woman who doesn't "get it", A is getting the spotlight she needs for dramatic moments. Where is the problem?

Is it even a V? And I also keep thinking about that poor guy that she's lying to. It makes me so uncomfortable all these lies.

Don't tell me you want to meet him and save him from his relationship with someone else too!

Have you ever been in a situation like this?

No, but I've seen a couple like this. It is like a road accident. You can't bear to watch and you can't stop gawking. It is a blissfully co-dependent dysfunctional relationship of perpetual power games and potshots and manipulations that meets everyone's needs, so it is in a bizarre way functional. Also known as soap opera.

When you wanted some type of communication for the relationship but somebody else didn't? I can understand if she wants to be in the dark, but lying is something else.

Frankly, I have never felt an urge to force someone to talk to me whether they wanted to or not so that I could tell them how I knew more about their life and relationship with someone else than they did. BTW, where did she lie? You think she doesn't really have a lover?

S said that he doesn't trust A, and how am I gonna trust her? How does he stay in a relationship with someone he doesn't trust?

You aren't required to trust A. You are required to trust S - which apparently you do, while he is "on your side" [telling you how A is really worse than she seems, etc]. Unclear whether you will find it charming if he tells A things about you - he is her partner.

 

[Marcus]

In the middle of this, out of the blue, A announces that she has another boyfriend. Shocking. It completely surprised me and S, of course. She said that she's had this secret boyfriend for 4 months now. When she said it, she looked at S in a way that made me feel that she wanted to get some kind of reaction out of him, it felt to me that she wanted to upset him. I was there quiet and it got very awkward. I asked them if they preferred for me to leave so they could talk it over. A said that she didn't want to talk anymore and she left.

That's a nice tall frosty glass of NOPE for me.

What you're dealing with is having a partner that has a toxic partner. There isn't anything you can do but keep yourself safe, make smart decisions, and understand that you can't fix what is going on between A and S. They have their own... dynamic... let them work it out (just don't get yourself in the middle of it).

Any thoughts on what to do? Can a V like this work? Is it even a V?

You're already in a V, in that S is the 'hinge' of the configuration, dating you (one leg of the V) and A (the other leg of the V). I would not worry about which configuration you are in or not, that's not going to be a helpful thing to focus on.

The configuration is determined by the relationships you are in, not the other way around.

 

[Amac]

Being a hinge myself, I can say it's a tricky part of the shape to be. My recommendation is that if you want a relationship with S, do as Kevin suggested and keep your relations with A to a minimum. Right now, A is his problem - lying and hiding are never good. If you love him and care for him, you can help him through that as a friend or something more. But you don't need to interact with her.

I might say you should hold off the pursuit of the relationship until they get their shit together, but that's up to you and how well you know him.

 

[Pia]

Hey Kevin. I agree with you that is better to keep my distance from A. I think not hearing and not having to deal with her altogether will make my life easier. And hopefully my relationship with S better.

And yes, safe sex!

Hi Pia,

If you decide to keep dating S (in a V shape), I suggest sealing yourself off from A so that only S deals with A. Tell S you don't want to hear about A. And you don't want to be around her in person. All you need to know about her is safer sex information, is S using a condom with A and is A using a condom with others.

Of course, you don't have to keep dating S. That's something to think about.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[Pia]

Hey anamikanon, thanks for your insights. I think I might have confused you because I didn't explain things clearly. What I meant by this V model, is that S said he wants me and A to be friends, that's the kind of V he was hoping for, and perhaps I used the wrong words (I'm kinda new to this) but that's what he wanted and that's why I was offering for us to talk. But I get it that I should've got the hint that she's not interested and stop insisting. I also agree that S should've been a better hinge.

And now I don't feel like I can be friends with her, I will still be "friendly" of course, but keep my distance. Also what really worries me about S is that he digs this kind of drama and way of relating, which I really don't. I really just don't want anything to do with her, but S was insisting for us to be friends, so I thought I'd give it a shot. But that's it, don't wanna get in anybody's business, to be clear. From now on I'll worry just about me and S (which is all I did for the first 8 months BTW, just this past 2 months that S was insisting for me and A to be friends I got more involved, but yeah I shouldn't have.)

Have no idea what upstaging is. I will Google it. Thanks.

Don't tell me you want to meet him and save him from his relationship with someone else too!

Um... no. Why would I wanna do that? Just said it was surprising. I'm not getting involved.

BTW, where did she lie? You think she doesn't really have a lover?

She lied because she was supposed to tell A when she was dating someone. She didn't.

You aren't required to trust A. You are required to trust S - which apparently you do, while he is "on your side" [telling you how A is really worse than she seems, etc]. Unclear whether you will find it charming if he tells A things about you - he is her partner.

Yes, I don't like it at all that he talks to me about her in that way. Makes me feel very uncomfortable. I will ask him to stop that, as Kevin said, I want information regarding A to be kept to the bare minimum. And also I don't want him discussing me with A or anyone else. Just have to make it clear that friendship is impossible.

 

[Pia]

Hey GalaGirl

I am sorry you struggle.
I might like him whole lot. But I like me best. And I don't want to deal in a mess and put myself through hell.

I love that =)

I agree that I have to think about the communication issues here. Yes, S should've mentioned a lot of things before. And it rises up some flags for me about what I think communication should be like within a couple.

This is not one of those "win - lose" choices. This is one of those "this stinks and that stinks, so which stinks LEAST?" choices.

It stinks to end it with him because you liked him. But to me that stinks LESS than choosing to keep hanging around in a V with A in the mix and with S leaving things out so long.

I don't need or want extended drama. This amount of drama is bad enough.
Galagirl

I agree with everything you said. It does stink both ways. I don't want the extended drama, but I do want him. It just stinks. I'm right now inclined to keep trying things with S, but, of course, I can't pretend that I don't know all the potential for drama that's there. Stinks =(

 

[Pia]

Hey Marcus

I agree that I don't have to get in the middle of anything, nor do I want to. I will be happier and more relieved with barely no A in my life. Will just work on me and S.

You're already in a V, in that S is the 'hinge' of the configuration, dating you (one leg of the V) and A (the other leg of the V). I would not worry about which configuration you are in or not, that's not going to be a helpful thing to focus on.

The configuration is determined by the relationships you are in, not the other way around.

Thanks, I am relatively new to all the possible configurations and things. Bu yes, I will stop worrying about A, focus on me and S and that's it. Whatever that's called.

=)

 

[Pia]

Hey Amac. Thanks for your advice.

Since you are a hinge, may I ask... do you have any tips for how to be a good hinge? Anything you have learned from experience? Any attitude you think helps most?

Thanks!

Being a hinge myself, I can say it's a tricky part of the shape to be. My recommendation is that if you want a relationship with S, do as Kevin suggested and keep your relations with A to a minimum. Right now, A is his problem - lying and hiding are never good. If you love him and care for him, you can help him through that as a friend or something more. But you don't need to interact with her.

I might say you should hold off the pursuit of the relationship until they get their shit together, but that's up to you and how well you know him.

 

[GalaGirl]

Also what really worries me about S is that he digs this kind of drama and way of relating, which I really don't.

From now on I'll worry just about me and S (which is all I did for the first 8 months BTW, just this past 2 months that S was insisting for me and A to be friends I got more involved, but yeah I shouldn't have.)

Was that why S insisting you and A be buddies? Because he wanted the drama?

Is that also why he was holding back info -- about him dating a pathological lair? Or about A having secret partners before?

So he can have ammo for later to cause drama with you and watch your stunned reaction? If so...sounds kinda mean.

Galagirl

 

[anamikanon]

Hey anamikanon, thanks for your insights. I think I might have confused you because I didn't explain things clearly. What I meant by this V model, is that S said he wants me and A to be friends, that's the kind of V he was hoping for, and perhaps I used the wrong words (I'm kinda new to this) but that's what he wanted and that's why I was offering for us to talk. But I get it that I should've got the hint that she's not interested and stop insisting. I also agree that S should've been a better hinge.

Whether you talk to A, are best buddies or complete strangers is irrelevant to the "V" as long as you and A aren't in a relationship as well. This part about S wanting you to meet A is fascinating. And apparently where the drama begins.

And now I don't feel like I can be friends with her, I will still be "friendly" of course, but keep my distance. Also what really worries me about S is that he digs this kind of drama and way of relating, which I really don't.

If you don't dig drama, RUNNNN. Notice this situation. Everyone is in their position in the order of things. Everyone having a problem. No one looking to change anything or fix, etc. Actions of both S and A guaranteed to create more drama (putting the two of you together, announcing own boyfriend at meeting supposed for you two to meet, etc) No one looking to exit. If you don't like drama, you should:

1. Consider that perhaps you do without realising it.
2. start looking at what you can change to stop the drama. Setting clear boundaries and ignoring "not your business" will be a life skill here.

I really just don't want anything to do with her, but S was insisting for us to be friends, so I thought I'd give it a shot. But that's it, don't wanna get in anybody's business, to be clear. From now on I'll worry just about me and S (which is all I did for the first 8 months BTW, just this past 2 months that S was insisting for me and A to be friends I got more involved, but yeah I shouldn't have.)

Live and learn, I guess.

Have no idea what upstaging is. I will Google it. Thanks.

Upstaging is basically stealing the focus of attention from someone else. So S gets into a relationshiip with you, which A doesn't like but is forced to come to terms with. A resists, doesn't work. A is hostile to you, doesn't work. Manages to do the mic drop with news of her surprise relationship when she is supposed to meet S's relationship. Then S tries to show A down to cheat his way back into limelight as the "poor me" much suffering chap. See how the focus shifts in who is getting talked about, getting attention in the situation?

Um... no. Why would I wanna do that? Just said it was surprising. I'm not getting involved.

I didn't know S put you up to meeting A. I thought you were in the "let's all be chummy" mood with a good dash of "messiah of the poly-confused" given your enthusiasm to talk to a clearly averse A.

She lied because she was supposed to tell A when she was dating someone. She didn't.

That wasn't a lie to you. That was a lie to her partner who took on another partner without her consent. What would you owe someone who did that to you? It is a dynamic between them, again. With you, you actually mention exactly three communications by A - all brutally honest - she didn't like your relationship, she didn't want to talk to you, she had a secret boyfriend.

Yes, I don't like it at all that he talks to me about her in that way. Makes me feel very uncomfortable. I will ask him to stop that, as Kevin said, I want information regarding A to be kept to the bare minimum. And also I don't want him discussing me with A or anyone else. Just have to make it clear that friendship is impossible.

This is a huge warning sign, that this guy is willing to get his limelight by showing other people dark. Add that to being a sloppy hinge, pushing you to woo a partner who was averse to his relationship with you rather than managing it himself.... what you have is an irresponsible partner wanting you to do his work for him, while he enjoys two relationships.

At some point I really want to mention somewhere that I don't agree that us being poly gives us the right to "inflict our poly" on others. If his partner A is not consenting to your relationship, you already are on a less than wonderful foundation. There is no rule that says that if your partner is poly, you must accept their relationships. There is no rule that says you have to be friends with his reluctant partner because he is poly. That said, given that she (or you) hasn't ditched him and is handling it with compliance, drama and complaints instead, not my business what anyone should do either.

S needs to grow the fuck up.