Is it irresponsible to tell someone in a poly/mono relationship "it can work"?

[CTF]

While it goes without saying that everyone's experience may vary, looking at the odds is not only important, but vital. That doesn't mean that one couple's success or failure is indicative of how you, me or anyone else will turn out, but it's incredibly irresponsible not to give it careful consideration. Not all people who use heroin the first time will become an addict either - after all, everyone's genetic makeup is different too- does that mean that we're not "living" if we don't give it a shot?

Which brings me to another point... since when is taking the safe play "not living"? We don't all need high paced thrills in order to prove we're alive. Some might like skydiving, while others crave sitting on the lake with a fishing rod all weekend. Personally, I see having a stress free day much more pleasurable than something that gives me heart palpitations. But to each their own.

As for what defines a successful relationship? It's really not that complicated. When something lives up to the intended result, you have success. I'd argue that most marriages & long term relationships have the goal of staying together forever. Therefore, when one of them dissolves, the relationship fails. Even if it was good for a while, and even if both partners are happier splitting up, it's not a success. That being said, both partners do need to be happy together. I would also argue that couples who stay together, yet are miserable, are also unsuccessful.

And yes, there are generally other reasons besides the poly bomb that cause problems in marriages. But that doesn't mean that the poly aspect should be ignored as a reason itself. It's a much bigger factor than many on here are willing to admit. In my case, it's the only thing that couldn't be overcome.

 

[Spork]

I've never really liked the bar of "unless your relationship lasts in its initial config until somebody dies, you have failed." It has never felt comfortable to me. I feel like a truly successful relationship, is one that evolves into whatever it needs to be over time, to make the people in it happiest.

The best, most successful relationships in my thinking, have been the ones that evolved to friendships. And my poly quad are the most lovely, shining examples of that. But then, I did not value the possessive and clutching nature of my mono marriage when I was in it, and I went to poly from a breakup. I did not try to open a marriage that was founded on monogamy. That never would have worked, but our relationship was broken...adding more people would (and kind of did, as others moved in and out before we really severed all parts of our lives)...just make it worse.

I also cringe a bit when I see newcomers who are in mono marriages, with partners who just have no inkling or inclination of poly, and especially when they already have problems or cheating has been going on, and they want to "come out as poly" to the mono partner. Maybe that works sometimes, I mean...you know your partner, how well WILL they take it? But it seems likely to end in the original marriage crumbling, for most mono folks. I would tend to say to such people, "How badly do you want this?" and "Good luck."

One guy I knew who had been cheating on his longterm girlfriend, was so intrigued by my tales of polyamory, which I was deeply involved in at the time. He wanted to hear all about it, and he said repeatedly that he wished he could do something like that. But the thought of telling his girlfriend...? He just wasn't sure, and he didn't want to break her heart, though the fact was, she simply was not meeting his needs. Mostly he was her caregiver, she had severe depression and drug issues. He didn't want to hang her out to dry, but he needed, occasionally, something more than what she had to offer in the relationship. I felt for him. But the question I asked that REALLY seemed to bother him the most, was this (and the fact that it bothered him so, was rather telling, to me)... I asked, "So what if you discuss this with her, and she can live with it, but she wants to have other, presumably male, partners also? Can you live with that? What's fair is fair." He didn't like that one bit. Hell, one of his lovers that he was cheating on her with, was a poly gal in California, and when she got with a boyfriend and formed a relationship, even though she made sure it was ok for her to keep seeing this guy friend of mine, dude got all sorts of upset and jealous, though he acknowledged he didn't think he had any right to feel that way.

He wanted something like a harem, I guess. I dunno.

I don't think he ever did come clean to his girlfriend.

They might last until death do them part, maybe, and perhaps she will never know the truth. Is that relationship a "success?"

 

[CTF]

I've never really liked the bar of "unless your relationship lasts in its initial config until somebody dies, you have failed." It has never felt comfortable to me. I feel like a truly successful relationship, is one that evolves into whatever it needs to be over time, to make the people in it it the happiest

There's a difference between a relationship failing, and the people, themselves being failures. Take the business world for example. You could be the greatest CEO in the construction industry, but when put in charge of a hotel chain, it can fail miserably. That doesn't negate your ability to lead, you're just in an industry you know little to nothing about. Your past accomplishments still exist, but if the hotel chain goes under, it was still a failing endeavor. It doesn't matter how valiant the effort is, it's still a failure. Which doesn't automatically make it a bad thing mind you.

 

[AutumnLeaves]

This is just my personal suspicion, but I suspect that the people who are comparing coming out as poly to a mono partner with plane crashes, etc, don't have much personal experience with having a closeted identity. The choices of "do you do heroin" or "do you fly in a plane" are not really analogous. It's "do you come out of the closet to your family, knowing that it might irreparably damage your relationship with them." Even if you recognize that there's a 90% chance that your conservative christian parents will disown you, do you tell them about a vital part of yourself that you did not choose. That's a closer analogy.

Realizing that I was bisexual was a huge process. It took almost a decade (and then another decade to realize that I'm demi). I couldn't have told my parents that I was bisexual at age 12 even if I wanted to... because back then, I just thought I was gay, and I ALSO there was something very wrong with me. I wasn't about to tell that to my family. People who strongly identify as polyamorous might not realize that they are polyamorous when they start a relationship with a monogamous person. And they might want to change and literally hate the part of themselves that is polyamorous. They might try for years to deny that part of themselves.

But they can't change it any more than I can change that I'm attracted to women.

The choice is to tell the partner or not. Not to fly in a plane or bet money or whatever other choice you make about what to do with your physical body or your money. It's an identity. If you really want to stick with the plane analogy, the person didn't choose to get on the plane, can't choose to get off the plan, and don't get to decide whether it's going to crash or not. The person is the plane. They can only decide whether to tell the passengers what's going on with their engines.

 

[Spork]

There's a difference between a relationship failing, and the people, themselves being failures. Take the business world for example. You could be the greatest CEO in the construction industry, but when put in charge of a hotel chain, it can fail miserably. That doesn't negate your ability to lead, you're just in an industry you know little to nothing about. Your past accomplishments still exist, but if the hotel chain goes under, it was still a failing endeavor. It doesn't matter how valiant the effort is, it's still a failure. Which doesn't automatically make it a bad thing mind you.

This is one of those points of thought where I "agree to disagree" with most people that I know. I don't think of a romantic relationship evolved into friendship, as having failed in ANY WAY AT ALL.

But then, I pretty much never set the goal of "relationship until death." There are people who can't see any alternative to being with their One Special Person forever. I have never felt that way.

I feel EXTREMELY invested in Zen. I would happily be with him for the rest of his days, and if I happened to die first, I'd feel terrible for putting him through the hardship of living through losing me. That's just how I am, and I'm in a relationship with a much older guy, I've been used to that kind of dynamic. It's not what most people do, but it's what I do.

I expect to have a span of years after he is gone. I've always expected to be alone in my very old age.

And I have not ever really believed in the "happily ever after" relationship model, but then I never actually saw anyone doing that, while I was growing up. The older couples who were together until one of them died, hated each other by the end, they just didn't know what else to do with themselves. They weren't together out of love and joy, but rather habit and duty and need. That didn't look like what I want for myself.

I'm not saying that you're wrong. Only that I disagree with you and most people, in my own particular worldview. It's one of those things.

 

[CTF]

This is just my personal suspicion, but I suspect that the people who are comparing coming out as poly to a mono partner with plane crashes, etc, don't have much personal experience with having a closeted identity. The choices of "do you do heroin" or "do you fly in a plane" are not really analogous. It's "do you come out of the closet to your family, knowing that it might irreparably damage your relationship with them." Even if you recognize that there's a 90% chance that your conservative christian parents will disown you, do you tell them about a vital part of yourself that you did not choose. That's a closer analogy.

Realizing that I was bisexual was a huge process. It took almost a decade (and then another decade to realize that I'm demi). I couldn't have told my parents that I was bisexual at age 12 even if I wanted to... because back then, I just thought I was gay, and I ALSO there was something very wrong with me. I wasn't about to tell that to my family. People who strongly identify as polyamorous might not realize that they are polyamorous when they start a relationship with a monogamous person. And they might want to change and literally hate the part of themselves that is polyamorous. They might try for years to deny that part of themselves.

But they can't change it any more than I can change that I'm attracted to women.

The choice is to tell the partner or not. Not to fly in a plane or bet money or whatever other choice you make about what to do with your physical body or your money. It's an identity. If you really want to stick with the plane analogy, the person didn't choose to get on the plane, can't choose to get off the plan, and don't get to decide whether it's going to crash or not. The person is the plane. They can only decide whether to tell the passengers what's going on with their engines.

It's not that I don't get where you're going with that, but those analogies dealt more with the odds of a negative impact as a result in coming out. In some cases, yes, there is no choice when someone is gay, or bi, and coming out to parents & other family can sometimes lead to being disowned. I am fully behind that individual who makes such a choice, and find it sad that anyone would disown their own child. It's still a risk that they have to take, and blaming conservative Christian parents is not going to change that. That being said, if my mother found out that I'm an Atheist, it would destroy her, so I don't tell her. In fact, there are very few people who know. But I'm comfortable enough about my own lack of beliefs, that I don't need other people to know, and I don't feel like I'm living a lie at all.

As for poly, I'm really not convinced that it's genetic, or beyond one's control. I see it as more of a preference, not unlike people who are more attracted to blondes, or Asians, or green eyes, and so on. Now, I'm not claiming to be an authority, so I could be wrong... in either case, so what!? Since when is being poly, or gay, or bi, or whatever else a disability?

What is clear, is that entering into a relationship is a choice, and each partner has the right to leave for any reason. And when one partner crosses a boundary, than he/she isn't a victim when the relationship fails.

 

[JaneQSmythe]

I think that people tend to agree with something emotionally, then hunt around for logical reasons that prop up that belief. I once read of an experiment that put two cooked chickens in front of two groups of people. One chicken was scrawny whilst the other fat. I forget the exact things the people were told, but the specifics don't matter for this retelling. The first group was told that the fat one was given medications and injections and remained illness-free whilst the scrawny one was all natural. The second group were told the opposite - said that the fat one was all natural whilst the scrawny one was given medications and injections and remained illness-free. Everyone went to eat the fat chicken but their reasons were different. The first group said that a healthy chicken was more important than a natural chicken, whilst the second group said the opposite. The authors of the experiment concluded that we make emotional decisions (choosing to avoid the scrawny chicken) then strive to make logical reasons to justify our claim.

Shaya - swiping this for my Notebook blog to share with MrS - fits in GREAT with another conversation we were having about logic and bias. Thank you

 

[Marcus]

Situational

And yes, there are generally other reasons besides the poly bomb that cause problems in marriages. But that doesn't mean that the poly aspect should be ignored as a reason itself. It's a much bigger factor than many on here are willing to admit.

Sure, it's a reason that a given relationship will have to change or end, like all of the other big changes in a relationship can force it to change or end. It would be dependent up on the relationship itself though, right? Some relationships will adjust to a change like poly and won't be able to adjust to a change like one partner not being able to find work... it's dependent upon how their relationship is made up.

In my case, it's the only thing that couldn't be overcome.

Relationships that are resistant to change do not respond well to change. Relationships that meet change head on and don't run from it, but find it to be a reason to grow, respond much better to change. This is also allowing that everything about the relationship *other* than the change is all milk and honey.

There is also a lot to be said about the environment the relationship is in when they encounter a specific change/challenge. In Dallas, for example, a couple who might be able to roll with a change like polyamory could make it, but they are fighting against a veritable avalanche of social pressure to NOT continue on. Here in Portland, being polyamorous is fairly common (by comparison), so the social pressures of adjusting to this change would be quite different. Social pressure can have heavy impact on how people lead their lives and make their decisions, regardless of whether or not they realize it.

I'm just illustrating, as others have already, that the difference between a couple adjusting and continuing on in a healthy way to change is going to look different depending on the details of their particular situation.

 

[OnceAndFuture]

I guess I can't have more migraines for however long this thread is getting responses, otherwise I'm going to be about ten pages behind. There's so many good posts and points here that I can't address them all at once; I'm going to have to do one at a time.

Objection #1: "The success of a relationship isn't defined by how long it lasts."

Honestly I don't have any argument with this. Sometimes relationships have to end for the better of everyone involved. It would have been a failure, for example, if my ex-wife and I were still together now. More seriously, if someone's in an abusive relationship, the most positive conclusion is to get out of that relationship. And I think people just come to realize that their relationship just isn't working. There might always be a juncture where someone walks away.

Perhaps what I mean instead of "poly/mono relationships are not likely to be successful" is actually "poly/mono relationships are not likely to be viable." I think it could be argued that for some people, living an inauthentic life is not worth any relationship, and for those people stepping away from a poly/mono relationship would be a success. But for those people who don't think that way--and for people like myself who are simply unsure what living an authentic life means for them--I think they'd want to be aware that it's going to be extremely difficult for them if they believe that they can live a poly existence with a mono partner. That, much as they might want it to be otherwise, they're probably going to be faced with the choice of "hide my inclination towards polyamory" or "face not only losing my current mono partner, but also restrict myself to being with only poly-friendly partners in the future, and there aren't a lot of those to go around." (I'm afraid we don't all live in Portland.) I agree that's a bit of a downer, but, unfortunately, it's the reality I've seen in meetup groups, online, and pretty much everywhere in between.

Geez, I realize I'm sounding even more doctrinaire now. Will try harder next post.

 

[Aery]

Hah! Just emphasize fact that needs getting met on the broader level. Because when felt loved/loving, considered/considerate, and safe... never, could relax and be comfortable/// Somebody always seems to have another point about my horribleness! New Poly ain't the new Poly either!

 

[Aery]

Said before and got reprimanded/// This forum is not final word! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgSPaXgAdzE

 

[Ravenscroft]

I'm gonna go back to the root post & title of the thread.

1. FWIW, to me as well, the title did immediately bring up the thought of general odds of success.
2. It's not irresponsible to say it might work
3. It's probably irresponsible to NOT say such.
4. It's certainly irresponsible to say it WILL work.
5. I do not agree that any particular person HAS to be nonmonogamous, but that's just IMNSHO.
6. And if such persons exist, then they ought to undertake their individual responsibility -- their responsibility as individuals -- & understand that this fundamentally changes the basis upon which they undertook a monogamous relationship.
7. Sure, they might be able to "eat their cake & have it too," but the contract is now voided & dearly needs to be replaced with a new agreement, which will require discussion & negotiation before the "I do" part comes up. If not, then the partnership is over, period, & the responsible thing is to recognize & admit this.
8. That remains true even if (as is sometimes claimed) each member of a couple magically decided to "try poly" at the same moment. Again, without a new contract, odds of failure (whether big explosion or long mudslide) greatly increase.

 

[CTF]

Sure, it's a reason that a given relationship will have to change or end, like all of the other big changes in a relationship can force it to change or end. It would be dependent up on the relationship itself though, right? Some relationships will adjust to a change like poly and won't be able to adjust to a change like one partner not being able to find work... it's dependent upon how their relationship is made up.

Right, but it's all in the eye of the beholder. Inversely, some relationships can adjust to a partner not finding a job, but may not be able to adjust to poly. Everyone has their own view on what they're willing to tolerate, and where their line in the sand is. It's also much more than just dealing with change. Feeling as though your partner respects you is arguably at the root of why these changes can cause a relationship to fail. Did he/she not find a job because of the state of the job market, or because they'd rather spend the day on the couch & have no interest in working? Did the poly partner drop the bomb, hoping open the relationship with a reasonable expectation that the mono partner would consent, or was it in spite of repeated statements of being against the idea? (Assuming the poly partner is willing to stay closed in such a case)

Relationships that are resistant to change do not respond well to change. Relationships that meet change head on and don't run from it, but find it to be a reason to grow, respond much better to change. This is also allowing that everything about the relationship *other* than the change is all milk and honey.

There is also a lot to be said about the environment the relationship is in when they encounter a specific change/challenge. In Dallas, for example, a couple who might be able to roll with a change like polyamory could make it, but they are fighting against a veritable avalanche of social pressure to NOT continue on. Here in Portland, being polyamorous is fairly common (by comparison), so the social pressures of adjusting to this change would be quite different. Social pressure can have heavy impact on how people lead their lives and make their decisions, regardless of whether or not they realize it.

I'm just illustrating, as others have already, that the difference between a couple adjusting and continuing on in a healthy way to change is going to look different depending on the details of their particular situation.

Of course every situation is different. And some couples are much better at dealing with adversity. Some people see change as exciting & opportunities for growth, and some see change as doing more harm than good. It just depends on what the change is.