Approaching commitments, and bringing a third into a family.

[dmkentt]

Hi everyone,

My primary partner and I are in our early 30s and have opened up our relationship for the past 4 of the 10 years we have been together. I have a child with her, and we don't bring other partners into the household as of this moment.

I hate to make this thread long, however offering you some background will help illustrate where we are in this journey.

We opened up our relationship for sex, and primarily for me. My partner has struggled with chronic vulva pain for years and it just gets worse with time. The physical afliction has manafested into a mental one, and she has wavering desire for sex. We have sex about once a month and it's amazing when we do.

For years we have made this work, and replaced intercourse with other intimate activities. She has been amazingly understanding about my higher sex drive, often giving me intimate attention at least once per day. I know it may sound like oral sex and hand jobs aren't the most intimate of activities but we have truley made them a very connected experience, and I love what we have. She gets really into it, and reassures me that she loves these activities, even though she doesn't desire the same thing from me, which makes me feel guilty and undesirable at times. But I try to never bring that up because she feels guilty about our sex life.

While I love my partner and love what we have, obviously we felt it would be benificial to open up our relationship. While it started as a strictly sex based arrangement we have evolved our philosophy over the years, our current perception grew out of the fact that I don't enjoy casual sex, and want to have an emotional connection with my partners.

My primary and I have settled on a freedom of independence arrangement, which means a I am free to define my relationships as long as my priority remains with my family. My partner wants limited details of my activities, and the amount of detail she wants waivers depending on who I am seeing. We don't discuss specifics about my sex life, we speak limitedly about my emotional attachments, and freely about our philosophy, and how we feel, what we are each dealing with emotionally, and how we feel this activity both enriches and complicates our lives. Within these boundaries, we have existed quite happily over the years.

A secondary partner recently came into my life. What started as a strictly casual relationship has turned into something​ more meaningful. I was under the impression that she was somewhat experienced at having multiple partners, but the reality is that this is all brand new for her. She is single, and had a one nighter with someone early in our relationship. She did not use protection and was very straight forward about it, which I respect, and frankly I understand, I have struggled with that too in the past. After my secondary tested clean a week later I continued to have unprotected sex with her knowing that I was still taking on a level of risk. Of course, I discussed this with my primary and she approved of the decision.

My secondary and I have grown closer and she recently told me she was in love with me, which lead to a conversation. She expressed to me that she is monogamous and doesn't mind that I am poly, though she doesn't feel the need to see other people while I am in her life.

I told her that I love her too, and explained what that word means to me. I communicated to her that my love is not based on her being faithful, and that I think it's healthiest if she stay open to meeting other romantic partners. She told me she would try to stay open to it, but tends to focus on one person at a time.. I suppose I can accept that, although I am not completely comfortable with it.

This is the first secondary relationship I have had with a monogamous person, and I need to confess, when she told me that I'm all she wanted, it made me feel really special. I know, I know; the unrealistic allure of monogamy does not escape me, it's just been so long since I have been subjected to it, the feeling took me off guard. It has put me in a uncomfortable headspace, I don't want her monogamy to be an expectation, but now I'm left worried that I'll be disappointed if she has other partners. That's so silly, I realize it now that I have written it.. She is admittedly bad at using condoms, and I think part of my anxiety comes from worrying that her risky behavior will affect our relationship. Unfortunately I didn't bring this up when I had the opportunity, how could I go about doing it now?

My secondary has a really high sex drive, she is always ready for me, dripping with desire whenever I show up. The way she makes me feel desired completely fullfils what my life is missing. I don't really have any desire to have sex with anyone other than my primary and secondary. I suppose as my life has become busier, the idea of having more defined boundaries and fewer partners sounds really convenient to me.

I would like to integrate these two relationships so that I can spend more time with my secondary and family at the same time. My secondary has expressed interest in meeting my child and primary, and my primary has expressed the same, though feels very guarded, particularly about our child.

I've never done this, and don't know how to approach it. I don't know how to approach the idea of asking for commitments from my secondary, it feels wrong to ask anything of her. One of the commitments I would like to approach with my secondary is the use of common sense safe sex practices if she has other partners.. Is that overstepping though? I don't want to inhibit her, but I desire more security in our relationship.

I need to know how to navigate my primary and secondary meeting and getting to know each other. I feel like I'm having all of these feelings creep up on my at once, asking for commitments from my secondary AND introducing her to my family. It is starting to feel overwhelming to me, and I don't want to make her feel pressured.

I know I wrote a lot, thank you so much for reading. Just getting this all out has already helped me organize my thoughts...

 

[Tinwen]

Hi, just a few notes.

She is admittedly bad at using condoms, and I think part of my anxiety comes from worrying that her risky behavior will affect our relationship. Unfortunately I didn't bring this up when I had the opportunity, how could I go about doing it now?

There is imho absolutelly nothing wrong with asking for a safer sex arrangement. 'Look, as I am responsable for both my and me wife's health, I am concerned about you fluid-bonding with other people (unless they are tested, clean and exclusive with you). Would you be willing to let use condoms with others for now, and let me know if you intend to drop it?' It is a request, right? She can say no. If she does - you can go back to condoms with her now. I don't think you need a special opportunity.

My primary and I have settled on a freedom of independence arrangement, which means a I am free to define my relationships as long as my priority remains with my family.
....
I would like to integrate these two relationships so that I can spend more time with my secondary and family at the same time.

Do you realize how this two statements contradict themselves? I'm not saying you're a bad person for wanting to ... perhaps make your secondary a co-primary ... I just want to say that while you're feelings are perfectly natural, this course of thought and action is taking you further and further from your original promis. Your wife certainly will have reasons to feel betrayed, if you don't keep her in the loop at the very least.

Poly-mono relationships are hard. I'm not suggesting solutions here.

My secondary has expressed interest in meeting my child and primary, and my primary has expressed the same, though feels very guarded, particularly about our child.
...
I need to know how to navigate my primary and secondary meeting and getting to know each other. I feel like I'm having all of these feelings creep up on my at once, asking for commitments from my secondary AND introducing her to my family. It is starting to feel overwhelming to me, and I don't want to make her feel pressured.

Take it one step at a time. Treat asking for a safer-sex arrangement (which is relaitively easy) as just that, and separate it from discussing further future commitments (which are complicated to discuss) like exclusivity or forming a unit with your family.

Arrange a meeting for your two partners. Leave your child out of it for a moment. Let them develop a friendship or not - metamours don't have to like each other, it's just a personality thing.

By the way, how long have you been together with your secondary? Treat 'introducing your other partner to your child' as you would treat 'introducing your partner to your child' if you were a single parent - that probably means letting the relationship stabilize before you let them form a strong emotional bond.

Proceed mindfully, with an extra portion of both self-respect and respect to your partners. IMHO

 

[icesong]

Do you realize how this two statements contradict themselves? I'm not saying you're a bad person for wanting to ... perhaps make your secondary a co-primary ... I just want to say that while you're feelings are perfectly natural, this course of thought and action is taking you further and further from your original promis. Your wife certainly will have reasons to feel betrayed, if you don't keep her in the loop for the very least.

<snip>

By the way, how long have you been together with your secondary? Treat 'introducing your other partner to your child' as you would treat 'introducing your partner to your child' if you were a single parent - that probably means letting the relationship stabilize before you let them form a strong emotional bond.

I actually disagree with the idea that family being primary AND letting your other partner spend time with your wife and *eventually* your child are contradictory ideas, although I don't entirely believe in hierarchy so I may not entirely understand those who do. I also don't read "integrate the relationships" as "make my girlfriend co-primary, though.

I'll use my life as an example. In many ways, the ability to spend time with both my partners at once makes it *easier* to prioritize my family, because I'm not torn in two directions at once - there's no conflict between being there for my son and spending time with my lover. And as long as AnotherArtist treats me well and I'm happy, TheKnight is happy that AA is in my life and they honestly like each other as people as far as I can tell.

Clearly this is more difficult with a mono partner, though.

I do 100% agree with waiting until your relationship is stable before letting your child meet your partner though - I think AA and I had been together 6 months or a year or something before him spending time with MiniMe was really on the table. Which is fortunate, because they HAVE bonded, at this point...

 

[PinkPig]

I agree with much of what Tinwen said. On the safer sex practices, your primary should be part of the loop since your sexual health directly impacts her regardless of how infrequently you have PIV sex. STIs are transmittable through oral sex, too. Figuring out what each person's individual boundaries are and how best to accommodate those is just part of good non-monogamy practice, imo. If you're fluid bonded with both, then it's a reasonable request to know when your secondary is intimate with someone new and whether protection was used.

As for the meeting with your partners, I wouldn't introduce your child to your partner until after your primary has met her...and until the relationship is established. That gives you time to address any issues between the partners before your child is involved (my experience is that children are much more perceptive than we give them credit for...even small children will pick up on anxious cues from a parent.)

 

[Tinwen]

I actually disagree with the idea that family being primary AND letting your other partner spend time with your wife and *eventually* your child are contradictory ideas, although I don't entirely believe in hierarchy so I may not entirely understand those who do. I also don't read "integrate the relationships" as "make my girlfriend co-primary, though.

Yes, you're right, letting them spend some time together is not contradictory, but I did read "integrate" and "bringing a third" as a desire to step outside of hierarchy. I realize my perception is colored by my current experience, and I don't want to go into the details now - suffice to say that hierarchy is not sustainable in our case. I wanted to turn dmkentt's attention towards this possible clash of interests (framed as an inner conflict, rather than a conflict between the two ladies) before he dives deeper in.

 

[dmkentt]

I think icesong honed in on what I'm feeling though I am not hip to all language and ideas associated with this online culture. Admittedly, I've not fully thought through what this could look like in the long term.

What I know right now is that it kills me to be away from my kid, I feel I'm missing out on parenthood when i am away, and now that I spend up to 3 nights a week with my secondary, I have realised that I simply can't be away from my family that often. That is why I am seeking some overlap, I do not know what exactly that can look like. I have discussed it with my primary and she is not sure either, but wants to meet her.

My secondary and I have been having sex for 3mos, but our friendship goes back several years. She was not aware of my lifestyle until we started having sex. Technically she has met my primary and kid before, but in group context, I think it was at a BBQ or something. So they are aware of each other but have not met since I started seeing my secondary, in a way it will be like meeting for the first time.

Should I play any part in them meeting? Should I be present at all? It seems a like it could be hard to get a meaningful conversation conversation going between two people that are meeting for the first time. Does anyone have any personal stories of how this milestone went for you and your partners?

 

[Spork]

I completely understand the whole need to bundle, so you don't feel like you're compromising your need to be with your family or their need to be with you.

It's hard to find balance in this. It is good to let everyone know that it's a goal for you to find this balance and that you believe it's needful, in order for all of these relationships and bonds to be sustainable.

Which brings me to communication. You're asking if you should be present or what. I would sit down with the primary, and ask her to close her eyes and imagine, something nice like an outdoor restaurant or coffee place patio, it's a good place to be. Imagine just her and your girlfriend there, happy, laughing, talking, enjoying drinks or whatever. Then imagine that scene with you there, too. Ask her which feels like a more comfortable energy. Try this with both of them. Have that conversation.

You are asking strangers on the internet, what would be more comfortable, for people we have never met. Ask them instead.

 

[PinkPig]

I met a few of my ex-partner Blue's other partners when we were dating. Plus spoke to a couple LDRS via phone or text. I never met or spoke to two. For me, it was much easier to have some sort of contact with my metas. It demystified them. Plus, I just prefer kitchen table style poly (which sounds more like what you're wanting.) We usually met somewhere public and neutral, but semi-private. One, I met at Blue's house. I hit it off with that one and she eventually became my gf...but that first meeting was hard. It felt more emotionally charged at his place. Blue was present for all the first meetings.

In my experience, meeting somewhere neutral, quiet, and semi-public was easiest. Tables with chairs are usually easier than booths because then you don't have to worry about who sits with who in the booth. Also, it was easier for me to have open ended meetings, as far as time was concerned...that way the meeting could last as long or short as we all liked. I'd also suggest avoiding areas where you're likely to run into people you know, just because it gives them space and time to process without disruption. As for the meeting, follow their cues. If they want some space, give them privacy. Let them take the lead on how long the meeting lasts, whether they wish to exchange contact information, or plan another meeting. I also thought it was helpful to have some alone time with Blue sometime after the meeting to process it. Obviously, since there are two partners involved, how that time was arranged just depended on our schedules...but Blue did try to have some alone time with each of us.

Of course that assumes they wish to have you present. Spork's idea to ask each what they prefer, is probably the best!

I've never been in the position of the hinge for a first meet-up but I believe if you do a search, you'll find a few posts regarding metas meeting.

Good luck. I hope it works out well for all of you

 

[kdt26417]

Hi dmkentt,

I am thinking of a three-person meetup with you, primary, and secondary. Then, partway through the conversation, you would excuse yourself and leave at least for awhile so that primary and secondary can interact one-on-one. Of course, I am just speculating, I could be wrong.

Tell secondary you want to bring her closer to your family unit, and find out how she feels about that. Then perhaps in a separate conversation discuss with her safer sex practices. You can't guarantee she will be agreeable to your propositions, all you can do is ask her.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[anamikanon]

I'd like to begin with appreciation for your primary partner. Very drama free and graceful in a situation that has some inherent stresses for her.

A secondary partner recently came into my life. What started as a strictly casual relationship has turned into something more meaningful.

How recent is recent? Some of your post sounds like NRE. In my eyes, it is generally a caution to postpone anything irreversible and just enjoy the intoxicating energy for now.

She is single, and had a one nighter with someone early in our relationship. She did not use protection and was very straight forward about it, which I respect, and frankly I understand, I have struggled with that too in the past. After my secondary tested clean a week later I continued to have unprotected sex with her knowing that I was still taking on a level of risk. Of course, I discussed this with my primary and she approved of the decision.

I am getting itchy just thinking about all the unprotected sex and being ok with unprotected sex going on. While it probably doesn't sound like a big deal right now, it is something potentially "irreversible" - I would highly recommend waiting at least past NRE before dropping the condoms (including with your primary)

She expressed to me that she is monogamous and doesn't mind that I am poly, though she doesn't feel the need to see other people while I am in her life.

Didn't you just now say she had unprotected sex with someone else early on in your relationship (when NRE, and thus obsession with you would logically be at their peak)? That doesn't *sound* monogamous. Maybe a discussion on what is meant by monogamy may be useful.

I couldn't care less about monogamy but... You like the sound of it, but don't seem to have made it a condition, so her not being monogamous would not seem an issue - except - for the several times mentioned problem with missing condoms. If there is a gap between definitions of monogamy between the two of you, you (and thus your primary) could inadvertently end up at more risk.

I need to confess, when she told me that I'm all she wanted, it made me feel really special. I know, I know; the unrealistic allure of monogamy does not escape me, it's just been so long since I have been subjected to it, the feeling took me off guard. It has put me in a uncomfortable headspace, I don't want her monogamy to be an expectation, but now I'm left worried that I'll be disappointed if she has other partners. That's so silly, I realize it now that I have written it..

hahahaha. I know this so totally. My partner is on a monogamy trip since last year. Even if you so much as whisper of him being interested in another woman, he reacts like you suggested a bank robbery a week is good exercise. On one hand it is a sort of high. This full blown declaration that I am the one he loves and all he needs.... On the other, I can't help but wonder what if it will mean if he has other partners after saying this Though I guess my massive ego won't even notice the dent.

She is admittedly bad at using condoms, and I think part of my anxiety comes from worrying that her risky behavior will affect our relationship. Unfortunately I didn't bring this up when I had the opportunity, how could I go about doing it now?

How you do it is less important than doing it. Find a graceful way to bring it up. If not, just bring it up. "Now that we seem to be serious, I need to discuss..." Whatever the situation is, make it the occasion needing the talk. Simple. You really need a tripartite condom treaty. And it needs to be adhered to.

My secondary has a really high sex drive, she is always ready for me, dripping with desire whenever I show up. The way she makes me feel desired completely fullfils what my life is missing. I don't really have any desire to have sex with anyone other than my primary and secondary. I suppose as my life has become busier, the idea of having more defined boundaries and fewer partners sounds really convenient to me.

That is more than I needed to know about you and your secondary, but I get it. NRE.

I would like to integrate these two relationships so that I can spend more time with my secondary and family at the same time. My secondary has expressed interest in meeting my child and primary, and my primary has expressed the same, though feels very guarded, particularly about our child.

Don't do anything irreversible during NRE. Enjoy the NRE. The perma-horny sex doesn't last forever. Once that high has waned, you'll be able to handle boring things like bringing together partners, etc in a more responsible manner. Take your cues from your primary. Has your primary "expressed the same" or guardedly agreed on being asked? If agreed on being asked, don't even think about doing it till she brings it up OR you're beyond the NRE phase. If she brought it up herself, still wait for the guarded to go away OR NRE to be done.

Look at it from your primary's PoV. First she coped with an unfortunate discomfort that limited her enjoyment of sex. She still tried to give you sexual pleasure with enthusiasm and generosity. But your needs weren't met, so you opened up your relationship. But you couldn't do casual sex, then you found someone special, then that someone special isn't using condoms, now you want to be one big family, then she is supposed to meet the other woman, she's not sure how to handle it with the child ... Every progression in your sexual opening up has been initiated to meet your needs and she seems to have adapted gracefully. Your primary and secondary meeting is not a need. It can wait for your primary to initiate when she is comfortable if need be.

In her place, I would be wondering what influences I invited into my child's life when I agreed to an open relationship to meet husband's sexual needs. Note, what she's got out of it is concern about how to handle it with the child. In addition to any other issues she may have in adjusting to your relationship.

I've never done this, and don't know how to approach it. I don't know how to approach the idea of asking for commitments from my secondary, it feels wrong to ask anything of her. One of the commitments I would like to approach with my secondary is the use of common sense safe sex practices if she has other partners.. Is that overstepping though? I don't want to inhibit her, but I desire more security in our relationship.

Nothing unreasonable or overstepping about it. I would highly recommend that this be absolutely non-negotiable. For that matter, until you feel that she can be trusted with condom safety, you should be using condoms with both your wife and her. You cannot control what she does with other partners, but you can definitely roll on a condom yourself and guarantee responsible behavior that protects yourself and your wife till you can be certain.

I need to know how to navigate my primary and secondary meeting and getting to know each other. I feel like I'm having all of these feelings creep up on my at once, asking for commitments from my secondary AND introducing her to my family. It is starting to feel overwhelming to me, and I don't want to make her feel pressured.

I did not quite get the deadline for introducing your secondary to your family. You are feeling pressured, you have a crucial conversation with her that you don't know how to handle, your primary is not yet fully comfortable with the idea. So why do it now?

In my view, figure out the condom scene first and wait for your primary to invite your secondary - or initiate the subject of her visit in a manner interested in meeting her. Then initiate a discussion with your primary on how the child is to be informed or protected or otherwise and support her. Only then make plans for the actual meeting. A neutral location where the three adults can meet without the child sounds good. That way anyone needing to walk out can do so if things don't work, Plus, the location not being home will be psychologically useful for both women, likely. Since home is where you have sex with your wife.