DeepBlue on her path...

DeepBlue, I am a terminology junkie. I believe that word choice and phrasing say a lot about our underlying motivations and shape how we are able to think about a situation.

I can understand where retyping "the other man" got quickly wearying. ;)

For comparison, in the two posts you quoted at the beginning, you use "love" (aside from referring to your daughter) 19 times; in the first cited passage, seven of those instances are some version of "falling in love" (plus three more "in love"s).
I have been falling in love with several guys over the past ten years.
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There is huge difference between falling in love and being in love. Quite often, the "falling" isn't reciprocated, or the object is entirely unaware of it, so there's really no "in" there. Moreover, it's not "love," but crush and fantasy.

Given opportunity, proper circumstances, and luck, those feelings might provide a healthy setting in which love can form, but the obsessive giddiness is not itself "love."

From what you said, it's clear that you have never had opportunity to be in love, that is, to love, deeply and fully, with more than one person at a time.

I have a few friends who seemingly cannot be happy without more than one steady lover, and I mean full-on "Serious Relationship" stuff, not merely FWBs. With two steady partners, they are stable and devoted, and not interested in further explorations.

I think you're much the same, and that you'd thrive having two husbands. Getting to that point is the mass of the problem.

Hmm... In your 10+ years together, have you never talked to your husband about the disaster(s) that preceded him? :confused: I'm guessing not, as you make him sound totally baffled and blindsided by this "sudden change" in you. But if you never talked about that part of yourself, how much trust do you actually have in him? He'd be justified in feeling doubly hurt.
 
I am not a native speaker of English. I would phrase things about love a bit differently in my own language. We have a third category of "love", to make it more complex. ;)

When I write about falling in love, I indeed mean having a crush on someone. But I guess, I am a bit different than, for example, my friends and partners. That crush thing will fade away, and I have learned that for most people, it will stay away, maybe transform into love. For me, it fades... and then it comes back. Not with all people I ever had a crush on, but with some. And it doesn't depend in whether a relationship formed or not. It is just like that.

Currently, I have this butterfly feeling in my stomach when I think of my husband, when I see him. And I also have it with Salt. And sure, it will pass. And then... it will be back, probably at the most unexpected moment. I actually do think that I love (not only the giddy crazy butterfly thing) my husband.

I also love my girlfriend/bff. I've never mentioned her here before. The relationship with her is probably the most stable I ever had in my life. My husband never had an issue with her until recently. Now he suddenly needs to label it. Now it must be a no-sex thing, where previously that was up to her and me. Ah, life is getting complicated. She and I, we used to live together before I met my husband, and still during the first years with my husband.

I also think that I love Salt. We may never have had much time together, but the intensity during the times that we spent together... it gave rise to very deep feelings.

I did talk to my husband about how I love, that I will probably always love more than one person in a romantic way, when we first met. But I actually believed back then that I would never like to act on those feelings, again. So he believed me, too, relied on it.

And yes, I did not discuss the details of my past with him. Neither did he... I have only vague ideas about his relationships before we met.

My husband is not a very emotional guy. He has trouble expressing his own emotions, and difficulties reading mine, even if I state them in words. This gives rise to lots of conflicts, because I am a rather passionate person. Anyway, it seemed impossible to discuss the emotions involved in my past relationship with him. And it is still very hard. We always quickly get to a point where he says he doesn't get it. I am trying.
 
Salt's wife is bugging Salt about coming out about loving me in front of his parents. I can see why she is doing it. Her in-laws have never been particularly nice to her. For some reason, they don't seem to like her. They have given her a hard time before. And they are very conservative when it comes to marriage. (I know them. It is true.)

Salt's kids are old enough to talk. Salt and his wife and her boyfriend live together. The boyfriend is an important person for their kids. Salt's parents never visit Salt and his wife, so from that side, there is no threat of being discovered. His wife's mother figured it out, instantly, because she does visit. She simply ran into the boyfriend one day.) But the kids talk in front of their grandparents. And the boyfriend's name has been out a long time ago. The au-pair lie that Salt set up rather spontaneously back then will not work anymore, because too much time has passed. So the next time kids let his name out at their grandparents' place, there will be questions.

Salt's wife would much prefer to make it look like Salt started a new relationship first. Like, he did it, so she has every right to do it, too. That seems to be her rationale, at least.

I think it is ridiculous, because Salt and I are not even physically seeing each other, at the moment. And even though we all believe this to be a long-term relationship, it is rather new right now. I wouldn't really have a problem with meeting Salt's parents again. I like them and I am pretty sure I can handle their... contempt, if they see me as the cause of Salt's marriage "falling apart" (which is not really happening, but they will certainly see it like that anyway). But I am not even meeting Salt, right now. I think it would be plain weird.

Salt wants to protect his wife. He loves her. He hates that his parents look down on her (in general) and he hates the thought of this becoming even worse (which is likely going to happen if she is identified as the "marriage wrecker" by them). He is considering her request. He checked with me whether I was ok with it.

I am ok with it. I will most certainly meet his parents again, anyway. And I can handle it. But I find it weird. Nobody will protect me from them, or from my mother-in-law and her family, when they figure out my relationship with Salt (and they will). I will definitely be frowned upon at one or more awkward Xmas dinners with them. My husband and I will make neighborhood gossip for months. (Thank god we don't live there. Let them be entertained.)

Not to talk about my own parents. Haha. That's going to be even more fantastic.

Their problem is not only a conservative mind, but their need to mingle, to be a part of things, to play a role. They won't know whose side to pick, and they will feel like they have to pick a side; and then they will blame me for feeling like they have to pick a side while there is really no need to pick sides. I can see exactly how that's going to play out. It will probably happen, and I will have to go through it on my own. And I can. I am not sure why Salt's wife cannot do it. But that's up to her, I guess.

At this point in time, I cannot imagine how that conversation between Salt and his parents is supposed to happen. It all doesn't really add up to make a good cover story to protect Salt's wife. The timing doesn't add up. They would have to create more lies to make it work. And I will not lie for them if ever asked about something by Salt's parents. I told him that.

Meanwhile, my husband and I are still bargaining the prenup/postnup/whatever. We had a serious fight about one thing, but we have moved past that now. Financially, we are now in agreement.

Next topic is our kid. Not much agreement there. He wants to keep her. If he wants to keep her, I cannot move away, because I cannot leave my kid. I won't. If I cannot move away, I will not find a new job. If I cannot find a new job, I will have to continue working for my husband. And he says, currently, that he is not sure whether that can happen. So that is giving me a hard time.

He agreed to see a marriage counselor with me. That's a positive development. But I am having a hard time finding one. We don't want to see a church-affiliated counselor because we are not members of any church. There are two counselors who work as therapists. Both have been seen by two people who live in a triad (the only local poly relationship that I am aware of); and they stopped seeing both because "you need to decide whom you want to be with: her or her!" does not really help if you want to be with two people. I don't think it is worth seeing either of these. That leaves exactly one local counselor. He is new. I have heard nothing about him yet. We will give it a try with him, I guess.
 
I have few true statements in the quiz... three... very low score.

At first, my husband and I would never fight. We both see no point in fighting about things that many other couples fight about. A flipped toilet seat? Whatever. Cleaning the kitchen? Whatever. He wants his female friend to stay over for a week while I am somewhere else? Whatever. I want to go to cinema, he wants to see a soccer game? Whatever, we both do our own things.

But there is a point where it flips. And if it flips, it goes really, really bad. There are few things that matter to both of us and where we are not in agreement, but with those things, it seems almost impossible to come to an agreement. Those are points where compromise is impossible, points where only one of us can "win", and the other one will "lose." And then we fight. Mostly I "lose," and I hold grudges.

It didn't happen very often before our daughter was born. We had maybe two of those fights, before. And we did recover from them (i.e., there is no grudge anymore). Since our daughter was born, there have been a lot more conflicts. I was not willing to give in on several things. I thought my needs were often completely ignored. It is accumulating. I feel increasingly unhappy. We fight a lot now. They are not five-minute fights. They stretch over weeks and months if the conflict remains open. I am not sure how we will ever recover from this. Maybe we won't.

We will try marriage counseling to find a different way to actually resolve our conflicts. Because what we do now is more like "he wins, I lose," or the opposite (but rarely the opposite). I am not so much interested in healing from previous conflicts. I am much more interested in avoiding the situation that I will hold a long-term grudge against my husband in the future.

Salt and I had a fight, only once. It was the one that led to him breaking contact with me for several years. He promised to never do that again. We will see.
 
DeepBlue said:
Those are points where compromise is impossible, points where only one of us can "win" and the other one will "lose." And then, we fight. Mostly, I "lose," and I hold grudges.
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That's bad, I'm sorry. :( Would you like to write out some of the things explicitly? Maybe people on this forum will have some unconventional ideas. Of course, you might learn that it's better to separate then hold grudges, but personally I'm not a big fan of breakups.
 
Sure, I can give an example.

Our last major fight was on how to handle the situation of two relatives visiting us.

First of all, I like visitors in our home, and my does husband, too. We often host strangers (couchsurfing, hospitality club; also often more than two at a time). We like spending time with people, cooking with them, getting to know them, maybe explore new leisure activities with them.

Second, I don't particularly like having visitors in our home when I am stressed. If I am under a lot of stress, I feel like I need some private time during the day, where I don't have to take care of other people (except for my husband and my kid). These days, I am extremely stressed. We don't have daycare for our kid, and we are both working full time, also extra hours, because we have deadlines to keep. It is a disaster for me. I don't know when to sleep. I work nine or ten hours a day and then I take care of our kid for another 8 hours, and of course, she does not sleep through the night. I am very stressed. My husband is stressed, too, but he does not compensate stress with private time.

Both relatives had offered to visit us and take care of our kid during their visit. Awesome offers! Life savers, kind of. It happens that one of them is his relative, one of them is my relative, and the offers came in around the same time, but to each of us, individually. I did not know his relative had made the offer, and he did not know my relative had made their offer. Then we started talking about it.

It turned out that they had offered to visit at the same point in time. I felt really uncomfortable about that. The idea of having them stay in our place, both at the same time, while I was under a lot of pressure at work, was just plain bad for me. So I said: "It would be ideal if we could make it happen that they don't visit at the same point in time. It would also have the up-side that we'd have someone taking care of our kid for a longer stretch of time."

My relative was not flexible about the timing. She wanted to come while her husband was on military duty during a particular week. His relative was in principle very flexible. She is currently unemployed. So I suggested that we ask his relative to reschedule. When he refused, I suggested to ask my relative not to come.

My husband insisted they visit at the same point in time. He said I shouldn't make such a fuss about it. It would all work out fine.

I said: "No, it will not be fine for me. Please, I don't want to have so many people in our home at once, not with the stuff at work. My relative is going to bring her kids. There are not enough sleeping surfaces." He said: "I can sleep on the floor, it will be fine." I said: "No, I really don't want this to happen. It is too much stress for me. Too many people. You know that I am under a lot of pressure at work, right now, I want to be able to close a door to a room and have my own private time in the evening, not talk to anyone, not cook for a family of 8, in the evenings, please! I also don't think they will get along with each other very well."

And he said: "We will talk about it tomorrow."

And I said: "We can talk about it tomorrow, but I will not change my point of view. I really don't want this to happen. I would prefer to move to a hotel with our kid if you really make me do this."

He said: "Okay, then you move to a hotel with our kid." I got really upset then. I had said that to make him see how bad I felt about it, not because I want to move out of my home. I said, "This is my home, too! How can you seriously consider doing something that makes me feel like I have to move out?" And it went on... and on... for days, because neither of us would settle.

In the end, when I talked to his relative, it turned out that she could really easily reschedule. She was very understanding. So it ended well. But it did not end well, because my husband would have accepted that I said, "No, I really don't want this!"

There are grudges that go away with time. With years. It gets problematic when they accumulate. Right now, they are accumulating too fast. It has to change. If it does not change, I will need to get out of this relationship, it it won't have anything to do with mono or poly.
 
Why on earth was your husband not willing to reschedule his relative? That seems like a totally obvious thing to do.
 
I really have no idea. I talked to my therapist about it. (I actually usually don't see her anymore. She once helped me deal with a big loss.) She says it was probably a power struggle.

A close friend of mine thinks he is just insanely stubborn.
 
There must be issues underneath. You don't get into fighting for days over something easy to solve when both want to get along well.

I will address only your side of the equation, because you are the one we're talking to.
DeepBlue said:
And he said: "We will talk about it tomorrow."

And I said: "We can talk about it tomorrow, but I will not change my point of view. I really don't want this to happen. I would prefer to move to a hotel with our kid if you really make me do this."

He said: "Okay, then you move to a hotel with our kid."
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It seems here's were things got really absurd. You could have taken his request to give the heated discussion a break, and see if heads are calmer the next day. Instead, you suggested he's making you do this, and used a false thread to move out. I think you can see now, after writing it out, that you could skip it and stick to real boundaries/consequences. After all, you don't need his approval to disinvite your relative.

Of course, these possibilities suck, because what you really want is respect and understanding from him. You are very right that fighting for your space like this is exhausting and impossible.

So my questions are--
Why did his well of goodwill dry up?
Is there some imbalance in the relationship?
Can you help it in any way?
Are you both so exhausted with the kid that your conflict-resolution skills are gone?

It seems like he's got the bulk of the work to do here. But you know, it's hardly ever 100%.
 
and it went on... and on... for days, actually, because neither of us would settle.
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Days over something so simple to solve? :confused:

I get that you were asking him for help in solving a stressful problem, but if he's just being no use and doing circle conversations, you could accept sooner that he's no help at all, and stop having that conversation, not keep it going for days, building grudges. Just move on and solve your stress yourself.

You could have called his relative sooner to see if they could reschedule. There. You solved your own stress.

Or followed through and gone to the hotel if you can afford it. Take a mini break, enjoy room service, swim in the hotel pool, and not deal with visiting relatives. Solve your stress that way.

And he said: "We will talk about it tomorrow."

And I said: "We can talk about it tomorrow, but I will not change my point of view. I really don't want this to happen. I would prefer to move to a hotel with our kid if you really make me do this."
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Why not take the argument break? You seem to keep it going. If you still will feel the same tomorrow, then feel the same tomorrow, but with a break.

I don't know why you suggested going to a hotel if that was not something you were actually willing to do. You could offer things you are willing to do. Not make suggestions that don't work for you. That's not good problem solving.

If I said that, and I had the money, I would have gone to the hotel. Let the visiting relatives watch the kid, since that is what they are coming for. Take some time off work. Enjoy the mini break and de-stress.

In the end, when I talked to his relative, it turned out that she could really easily reschedule. She was very understanding. So it ended well. But it did not end well because my husband would have accepted that I said, "No, I really don't want this!"
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That's the bigger problem. He doesn't listen to what you want. But it isn't a problem to try to solve when all stressed out. You could put your own oxygen mask on first, get some rest and reduce your stress first.

There are grudges that go away with time. With years. It gets problematic when they accumulate. Right now, they are accumulating too fast. It has to change. If it does not change, I will need to get out of this relationship, and it won't have anything to do with mono or poly.
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Yup. It has to do with the lack of consideration and respect, and him wanting to be always be right, rather than be in right relationship with you.

If he approaches conflicts as something he has to win, no matter what? It's not you two working together to solve problems. He's making it be him vs you. And that doesn't feel good. :(

If he often behaves this way, digging in his heels, wanting to "win" the argument, and you often have to be solving things yourself? You often feel unsupported? You have no partner or real help? You might decide it is easier to really be on your own, and not deal with circular arguments like this anymore, because they're a drain and a drag.

He might win the argument, but he might lose his partner.

If it's that he doesn't want to be partners anymore, how about just having that conversation up front, rather than all these draining side trips? :confused:

I see where you were getting "louder and louder," trying to be heard, ending up with suggesting the hotel thing, because you really didn't want to be there with so many people. It was a suggestion to make a point, not to really do. That makes me wonder if this is a case of him getting "louder and louder" with the chronic arguments because he doesn't really want to be doing poly. Is that what all this is really about?

Galagirl
 
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Hi Deepblue,

Sorry to hear about the poor score. Looks like both yours and my relationship could do with improvement in some areas.

I was wondering if you'd consider asking a mod to create a new thread for the issues you've raised. In particular, I was wondering if you would ask them to take posts 13 onwards or 15 onwards and separate it into a different thread. I feel you could use the help in tackling this issue of communication with your husband but I don't want the thread I started to involve pages of advice for one person. I feel you'd get better advice with a different title to the thread.

Thanks,
Shaya.

P.S hit the exclamation mark in the top right corner of the post to do that.
 
Yes, sorry Shaya, I thought about this, yesterday, already. I have contacted an admin to do this, now. Didn't intend to hijack your thread like this!
 
No apology needed DeepBlue. :) You have enough going on in your life to have to worry about stuff like this. I just wanted the thread to remain useful for newcomers in the future. Thanks for your input.
 
DeepBlue said:
My husband insisted they should visit at the same point in time, I shouldn't make such a fuss about it, it would all work out fine.

I said: "No, it will not be fine for me. Please, I don't want to have so many people in our home at once, not with the stuff at work. My relative is going to bring her kids. There are not enough sleeping surfaces." He said: "I can sleep on the floor, it will be fine." I said: "No, I really don't want this to happen. It is too much stress for me. Too many people. You know that I am under a lot of pressure at work, right now, I want to be able to close a door to a room and have my own private time in the evening, not talk to anyone, not cook for a family of 8, in the evenings, please! I also don't think that they will get along with each other very well."

And he said: "We will talk about it tomorrow."

And I said: "We can talk about it tomorrow, but I will not change my point of view. I really don't want this to happen. I would prefer to move to a hotel with our kid if you really make me do this."

He said: "Ok, then you move to a hotel with our kid." - And I got really upset, then. I had said that to make him see how bad I felt about it, not because I want to move out of my home. I said "This is my home, too! How can you seriously consider to do something that makes me feel like I got to move out!" ... and it went on and on... for days, actually, because neither of us would settle.

In the end, when I talked to his relative, it turned out that she could really easily reschedule. She was very understanding. So it ended well. But it did not end well because my husband would have accepted that I said "no, I really don't want this!"

There are grudges that go away with time. With years. It gets problematic when they accumulate. Right now, they are accumulating too fast. It has to change .
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I think you're looking at this from the marriage that was. Not from two people in the process of disbanding. Your husband might be thinking there's a bit of irony with "too much intrusion" that's causing you "stress".

Also, as an exiting partner, he might not be interested in bending too much to help with your stress level. "Fine, move to a hotel."

And it might have something to do with your decision to be poly.

Sorry, I didn't read past post 18. Move this with it.
 
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dingedheart said:
I think you're looking at this from the marriage that was, not from two people in the process of disbanding. Your husband might be thinking there's a bit of irony with "too much intrusion" that's causing you "stress."

Also, as an exiting partner, he might not be interested in bending too much to help with your stress level. "Fine, move to a hotel."

And it might have something to do with your decision to be poly.

Sorry, didn't read past post 18. Move this with it.
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Fascinating how betrayal tends to harden the heart.
 
dingedheart said:
I think you're looking at this from the marriage that was. Not from two people in the process of disbanding.

Also as an exiting partner he might not be interested in bending too much to help with your stress level.
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Still, it's an interesting and valid point. From DeepBlue's writing here on this thread, I didn't realize they had already agreed on divorce (it has been stated elsewhere - did you, or not?) If you're already in the divorcing process, then yes, partners will probably be less accommodating.
 
This entire thread strikes me as a bunch of blame-the-victim nonsense: Is polyamory tearing your relationship apart and ruining your life? It's your own fault because you don't handle arguments well!

Devastated by a betrayal? Maybe you should think about what you contributed to the situation! Maybe you brought it on yourself!

As I say, nonsense.

Thing is, it's not about one argument or one betrayal. It's the slow erosion from the constant drip of hard choices and bad compromises that become inevitable when trying to maintain more than one serious commitment outside the bounds of any established institutions.
 
FallenAngelina said:
As we have discussed previously, it's foolhardy and self-defeating to discount everything about both partners that led up to the "betrayal."
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Be that as it may, it's equally foolhardy, as well as dismissive, to try & divert the attention away from poly as playing any role, let alone the vital one it often does. Sure, when couples erode, there are usually several things that contribute. But all too often, I see people try to exonerate poly completely by blaming those other problems as the "real" factors. When the truth is, that, in many relationships (I'd even say most), where couples disband, or stay together as merely a shell with little to no emotion or passion, poly is the key factor. I see a lot of folks say things like, "Your marriage problems go way beyond polyamory," which isn't at all true. Just because poly isn't the only problem, it's still by far the biggest.

As far as betrayal, I'm speaking specifically to the poly bomb. When partner "A" agrees to monogamy, and even lives for years as though he/she is perfectly happy with it, partner "B" trusts that, and sees that as who they are. Then, years later, they pull a 180, and suddenly are blown away believing that they never knew the real them, or that they no longer have the same respect for their partnership as they once did. I'm not saying that new self discovery/identity makes them a bad person in the abstract, but it's still a betrayal.
 
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