A sticky issue of threesomes and consent

[vinsanity0]

Thank you for your response, vinsanity.

As discussed elsewhere in this thread, I was not even aware of the terms/concepts of "subdrop", "subspace" or "sleep crash" until now, nor did I consider I may need "aftercare" in the hours or days post-threesome.

I don't know why, except that being inexperienced, it just didn't occur to me - and I doubt whether it did to the others either, although subsequent events proved that we had all gravely underestimated the impact this would have on my emotions and psyche.

We'd also *thought* we were prepared in other ways for this scene, but our preparations proved to be woefully incomplete (talking about, yet not setting a safeword, for example) and forgetting our agreement not to enter into such a thing in an impaired state.

Well I wasn't going to continue that discussion, but since you brought it up...

While something akin to subspace can occur with something like a threesome, I agree with FallenAngelina that your reaction was due to past sexual trauma.

I think practitioners of BDSM are more acutely aware of consent and gauging their partner's reactions than the average vanilla person. We also expect more frank and candid conversation about likes, dislike, triggers, etc. That makes for a more enjoyable (and safe) experience for everyone. Vanilla people tend to wing it.

While I understand that what is normal for me is not normal for everyone, I was kind of surprised that your partners didn't notice your discomfort and act accordingly. Perhaps that can be attributed to the drugs and alcohol.

I am unclear as to whether or not you talked with them about your past. I think it's important to open up about that sort of thing in order to avoid any unnecessary unpleasantness.

Almost all the threesomes I've been in happened organically. If you are going to make it an event then I agree better planning is required. It sounds like the two of them planned it without your knowledge that it was going to happen then. In a sense, you were coerced, but you also didn't speak up. You need to work on speaking up for yourself.

Personally, I believe some sort of aftercare is needed after any sexual encounter, not just BDSM. Again, I'm surprised nobody thought to ask you how you were doing, especially after you pushed away.

Sorry if all this seems a little bit jumbled.

 

[lunabunny]

While something akin to subspace can occur with something like a threesome, I agree with FallenAngelina that your reaction was due to past sexual trauma.

I also agree with this, and suspected it before even if I couldn't see it as clearly as I do now.

While I understand that what is normal for me is not normal for everyone, I was kind of surprised that your partners didn't notice your discomfort and act accordingly. Perhaps that can be attributed to the drugs and alcohol.

Though not quite as "vanilla" as we may appear (we're pretty experimental sexually, but I realise this is all relative), my partners were both threesome virgins, if not new to non-monogamy itself.

In fact, of the three of us, only I had had partaken in a threesome before, and that was decades ago, came about organically, and ended in even worse disaster.

I am unclear as to whether or not you talked with them about your past. I think it's important to open up about that sort of thing in order to avoid any unnecessary unpleasantness.

My two partners are really the only people I've ever taken into my confidence about the abuse I experienced. I've gone into more detail with my female partner than my male partner, though in fact he has a more comparable past. So, yes, they were both aware beforehand.

It sounds like the two of them planned it without your knowledge that it was going to happen then. In a sense, you were coerced, but you also didn't speak up. You need to work on speaking up for yourself.

We definitely planned it ahead of time, and had spoken at length about it in the months leading up to the vacation (LDR all round), However you're right that nobody addressed the issue directly on the day/evening itself, or in the couple of weeks leading up to it, probably because at this point I was on the road with J (then later B)... before we three all finally caught up in the same location.

So it's not as if I suspect they deliberately sought to ambush me, but rather, circumstances and inexperience combined so that nobody felt comfortable making the first move to bring up the subject in person earlier in the day, while we all still had our wits about us.

Personally, I believe some sort of aftercare is needed after any sexual encounter, not just BDSM. Again, I'm surprised nobody thought to ask you how you were doing, especially after you pushed away.

I'm sure I must've been sending mixed messages, because I felt too awkward/guilty/reluctant to "ruin" this long-awaited experience for either of THEM, hence kept up a charade of encouragement, even as I pushed them away from ME personally and directed their attentions toward each other.

I am also extremely shy and socially phobic (possibly on the autism spectrum, as my son is) so it's very hard for me to act in a way that reflects my inner feelings if I feel super stressed out and under pressure.

 

[Marcus]

I explained to B that because of my social anxiety and past issues with abuse, as well as the fact that I'd be the "new girl" (they used to be casual sex partners), I MAY find it hard to ask for what I need, or to call a halt to the activity if I felt really anxious or ganged-up on/left out in the moment. B said she understood and agreed that we would "check in with each other" every step of the way during proceedings.

I would have taken this as you excusing yourself from any responsibility to communicate whether or not you were actually enjoying what was going on or wanted it to stop.

There is exactly no chance I would get involved in any situation even remotely sexual with someone who said this. Not in any circumstance, or for any amount of money. That's just BEGGING for trouble that I don't need.

Your lovers were stupid enough to get involved anyway, and low and behold... a drama bomb.

...and has definitely put the kybosh on any plans we had to live together as a group for the time being.

Well of course it has. I would say that is the best thing to come out of this.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi lunabunny,

I can only imagine how difficult that threesome must have been to go through ... From your description, it sounded pretty bad. It's hard to imagine how a second try could ever be a good idea in the future, but I suppose anything's possible. Certainly you know a lot more now about what not to do. What mistakes not to make. But as it stands, I'd say that you must avoid any more threesomes in the future.

I think it's good that you posted what happened, to the best of your recollection. Posting it is a (first? and necessary) step in the direction of healing. Like you are not carrying the burden alone, you know that other people are sympathetic and supportive toward you about it. And, because you gave your pain (more of) a voice. I hope you'll continue to turn to this forum for various forms of help, although you're also wise to seek out a professional therapist.

I am rooting for you as you try to prepare yourself for this trip B and J are going on. Don't be hard on yourself if you do break down during their trip. It's great if you don't break down, but just know that you are carrying many burdens right now. The burdens can't be unloaded all at once.

With sympathy and regards,
Kevin T.

 

[Shaya]

...suggested the "three strikes or I'm out" ... I believe that is definitely the way to go.

I'm personally against a 3 strikes and I'm out rule. It makes no logical sense and the only people whom this message would resonate with are those who know the rules of baseball or who grew up in such a culture. Honestly, why 3? Why not 4?

Sometimes there are external factors to consider that influenced the situation in a manner that was unpredictable. There's got to be some flexibility for most issues, I think. Some hard and fast rules with one strike, others with 4 strikes (or more likely, a flexible number). Settling on a 3-strike rule as the default for most issues is just due to baseball.

 

[GalaGirl]

It can be 4. It could be 10. It can be whatever number you want it to be that you find reasonable for the circumstaces.

The point is that people have a limit of tolerance for upheaval/stress stuff. While people deserve second chances? It cannot be 30 million second chances on the same problem.

Say I'm having problems in my marriage. I might be willing to give something a year, maybe even 5 years to work out. Try counseling and other things. If progress is being made? I'm willing to keep trying. Some things just take a while to resolve.

But I'm not going spend 50 years banging head on wall going nowhere with no change and no progress. There's a point where I have to say "You know what? I don't want to put my energy into this for decades getting no where."

Galagirl

 

[lunabunny]

I would have taken this as you excusing yourself from any responsibility to communicate whether or not you were actually enjoying what was going on or wanted it to stop.

There is exactly no chance I would get involved in any situation even remotely sexual with someone who said this. Not in any circumstance, or for any amount of money. That's just BEGGING for trouble that I don't need.

Your lovers were stupid enough to get involved anyway, and low and behold... a drama bomb.

Thanks for sharing your perspective, Marcus. It sounds a tad harsh, put like that, although I do understand why you would have that opinion about our (admittedly flawed) decision-making process.

What can I say expect that we three are/were inexperienced when it comes to both polyamory and group sex situations, however we all love each other deeply, have learned from this experience, and wish to continue working on our relationship/s.

To clarify, I "warned" my gf that there was an outside chance this MIGHT be my reaction, considering past abuses and difficulty dealing with uneven power dynamics in intimate scenarios... as well as my social anxiety, and the fact that (at the time of discussion) I'd not yet met my lovers in person.

It was said in the context of opening up about experiences from my past that I'd never shared with anyone, and although I thought they understood and realised the risks going in, I now know we were all woefully naïve/too optimistic. It won't happen again.

Hi lunabunny,

I can only imagine how difficult that threesome must have been to go through ... It's hard to imagine how a second try could ever be a good idea in the future, but I suppose anything's possible. Certainly you know a lot more now about what not to do. What mistakes not to make. But as it stands, I'd say that you must avoid any more threesomes in the future.

Thanks for your understanding. Yes, it was extremely difficult to go through it and the aftermath. But I, and we all, are in a better place of recent weeks, after much heartfelt discussion... and no, we won't be attempting anything similar in the near future, if at all.

I think it's good that you posted what happened, to the best of your recollection. Posting it is a (first? and necessary) step in the direction of healing. Like you are not carrying the burden alone, you know that other people are sympathetic and supportive toward you about it. And, because you gave your pain (more of) a voice. I hope you'll continue to turn to this forum for various forms of help, although you're also wise to seek out a professional therapist.

Don't be hard on yourself if you do break down during their trip. It's great if you don't break down, but just know that you are carrying many burdens right now. The burdens can't be unloaded all at once.

With sympathy and regards,
Kevin T.

Yes, I do believe that one of my major reasons for posting about it was really just to debrief and unburden myself. Outside of my partners, I have no one to talk to about these issues. I/we are not involved in any poly community, and are not "out" to family or friends.

Thank you for listening with an open mind, and for offering compassionate and practical advice.

I'm personally against a 3 strikes and I'm out rule. It makes no logical sense and the only people whom this message would resonate with are those who know the rules of baseball or who grew up in such a culture. Honestly, why 3? Why not 4?

Oh, I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, Shaya. I wasn't suggesting I take/use the "three strikes and you're out" rule literally. Somebody (GalaGirl?) mentioned a timeframe and/or a limit on the number of times I allow certain unacceptable breaches or behaviours to "pass" or go on, and still stay in the relationship (the exact number or conditions being at my discretion.) In other words, I could give an undesirable situation another year to improve... or six months... or another two/three/five chances or warnings... then I'm out of there.

It can be 4. It could be 10. It can be whatever number you want it to be that you find reasonable for the circumstaces.

The point is that people have a limit of tolerance for upheaval/stress stuff. While people deserve second chances? It cannot be 30 million second chances on the same problem.

Say I'm having problems in my marriage. I might be willing to give something a year, maybe even 5 years to work out. Try counseling and other things. If progress is being made? I'm willing to keep trying. Some things just take a while to resolve.

Galagirl

Exactly. I understood your point, and this is where I'm at at the moment. This relationship is new-ish, and we DO all truly care for each other. However there are many logistical issues as well as some communication issues and differences of opinion on issues of touch, intimacy and boundaries that we're in the process of working through. I just don't want to give up TOO easily when I've made a lot of sacrifices (we all have, and are planning to) to build a life with each other.

 

[FallenAngelina]

What can I say expect that we three are/were inexperienced when it comes to both polyamory and group sex situations, however we all love each other deeply, have learned from this experience, and wish to continue working on our relationship/s.....I just don't want to give up TOO easily when I've made a lot of sacrifices (we all have, and are planning to) to build a life with each other.

You're doing great, really. You're self aware, generous, open minded and learning. The more you know yourself, understand yourself and have clear values and boundaries, the less you need to even count "strikes" or monitor other people's missteps in your relationships. When you keep your eye on yourself, what's comfortable and desirable for you, based on your own history and your own growth, you don't need to live with a score card of partners' "violations." People who are with partners who repeatedly violate boundaries are people who don't know or enforce their own boundaries, so it's not about choosing "good" partners, it's about becoming a good partner - and in addition to knowing yourself that means, as Marcus points out, not getting near situations with others who don't know their own boundaries and issues.

You're exploring all of this and you're doing well. The only way to know your edges is to come up against them from time to time and the good thing about getting older is that you gather up a lot of experience upon which to build confidence about your own boundaries and your own preferences. It sounds like you three are supportive, giving, self-aware and committed to learning together and that's about the best definition of a good situation as I know.

 

[Ravenscroft]

Honestly, why 3? Why not 4?

People who take the "three strikes" thing literally are kinda spooky.

How do you feel about second chances? If I give someone another second chance, is that a third chance, or a fourth?

Seriously, when enough is enough, negotiation is over -- the options then are ultimatum, or separation.

I prefer the version from "The Katzenjammer Kids": enough is too much. When I'm in some sort of emotionally loaded disagreement, & it reaches some unpassable knot, my emotions mute down & my logical (problem-solving) side moves up. At that point, walking away (momentarily or permanently) has become a viable option. And it often occurs to me that the argument has gone past the point where I maybe should have quit: "enough" has indeed become "too much."

If someone gets up in my face & screams at me about something I didn't do, I might decide that I'm really NOT interested in giving a a second opportunity for lunacy, & avoid contact with them afterward, weepy apologies be damned.

Conversely, I knew a woman who returned to the guy who'd beaten her twice, because -- maybe you've guessed what's coming -- she felt "he still deserves one more chance."

("To do WHAT??" I shouted. "Kill you? Cripple you? Disfigure you for life??")

 

[lunabunny]

You're doing great, really. You're self aware, generous, open minded and learning. The more you know yourself, understand yourself and have clear values and boundaries, the less you need to even count "strikes" or monitor other people's missteps in your relationships. When you keep your eye on yourself, what's comfortable and desirable for you, based on your own history and your own growth, you don't need to live with a score card of partners' "violations." People who are with partners who repeatedly violate boundaries are people who don't know or enforce their own boundaries, so it's not about choosing "good" partners, it's about becoming a good partner - and in addition to knowing yourself that means, as Marcus points out, not getting near situations with others who don't know their own boundaries and issues.

Thank you for your words of encouragement, Angelina. I really needed them this week, as I will be facing a couple of difficult situations this weekend/early next week. Today I had to firmly re-state - not so much my boundaries - but my needs, to one of my partners. The conversation was not exactly an ultimatum, but was very serious and was received well, thank goodness.

People who take the "three strikes" thing literally are kinda spooky.

Seriously, when enough is enough, negotiation is over -- the options then are ultimatum, or separation.

Conversely, I knew a woman who returned to the guy who'd beaten her twice, because -- maybe you've guessed what's coming -- she felt "he still deserves one more chance."

("To do WHAT??" I shouted. "Kill you? Cripple you? Disfigure you for life??")

I've never been one for allowing others to walk all over me and have maintained my boundaries, "dignity" and self-love within my relationships pretty well - up till a year ago, when becoming (accidentally) poly clouded my judgement on several issues.

(As I explained in my Introductory post, Ravenscroft, becoming polyamorous was, for me, the result of some convoluted relationship contortions and not a deliberate lifestyle choice.

But I digress...

What I was going to say was that, in part, I learned to vigilantly police breaches to my own boundaries when I was in a relationship that turned violent during my youth (18-22 ish).

I stayed two years longer than I should have in a relationship spanning just under four years, because these incidents were not a regular occurrence, so each time I forgave him for them - however I did learn a few crucial lessons, the main one being that such incidents are UNforgiveable.