The Best Life Yet

[Spork]

Yeah I guess my observation was that there has been too much reactive behavior in your patterns since I've been reading your blog, and I see that you're trying to get away from that, but it's hard to walk your talk when you are in a situation that could be influencing your emerging policies. It's like a country saying they only ever want peace, but then revising their whole foreign policy BECAUSE there are tensions with a neighbor. It is one thing to want to consider reshaping your relationship philosophies when nothing is changing and nothing is afoot. It's another to be doing so when you're swimming in NRE-soup, or close to it.

And I think you know that.

The reactivity isn't just you, either. Like you respond to what is happening and the feelings that are going on in connection with that...and then Rider has to try and respond to what is going on with you. The main problem that I think stands to creates stress is in his response to you...because your process isn't something he's got a lot of control over, right? So I think in this case, your plan to take your time is a very good one. Let stuff stabilize as much as possible before you have big talks about poly evolution, if you can.

(I think we're kinda thinking similar things, but from different perspectives and in different words, if that makes sense.)

My scenario test wasn't so much a "what if this happens" like I think it could be reality, in which case "that would suck" is the appropriate answer, it was more along the lines of "take this experiment and try to, in your imagination, move the variables and controls around, and see if the result is the same--or not." In trying to make sure that your thoughts are truly personal growth and not just reaction to things that are going on right now, and as such, subject to change if the situation were to change.

Otherwise though I am really happy for you because it sounds like you have great, fun people in your life, and your cat is frickin adorable.

 

[Reverie]

. . . it's hard to walk your talk when you are in a situation that could be influencing your emerging policies. It's like a country saying they only ever want peace, but then revising their whole foreign policy BECAUSE there are tensions with a neighbor.

I actually do not understand this example. Do you mean the revision is toward peace or toward war?

It's another to be doing so when you're swimming in NRE-soup, or close to it.

NRE soup is about the size of it, lol.

I'm currently waiting for Dustin to pick me up from work. He'll be here quite soon!

And Rider got a spur-of-the-moment date with one of the OKC people he's been talking to—his first actual meeting in some time. I'm excited for him. I hope it goes well.

 

[Spork]

YAY RIDER! I hope his date goes well!

I meant with my analogy, if you imagine a country that has been politically peaceful and uninvolved as a matter of course forever, if nothing is happening in current events except internal change (new leader or something) then changing foreign policy means one thing (growth/internal social change.) If they have a neighbor picking fights, then suddenly changing the rules to fit the situation and allow them to go to war, is another (reaction.)

Perhaps contemplate the difference between growth, and reaction. One is lasting and meaningful, the other is temporary and changeable. I would not make rules based on reaction if possible. The best way I can think of to make sure that you aren't simply reacting, is to take your time and don't make any big decisions when under the influence of big feelings (positive or negative!)

 

[Reverie]

YAY RIDER! I hope his date goes well!

I meant with my analogy, if you imagine a country that has been politically peaceful and uninvolved as a matter of course forever, if nothing is happening in current events except internal change (new leader or something) then changing foreign policy means one thing (growth/internal social change.) If they have a neighbor picking fights, then suddenly changing the rules to fit the situation and allow them to go to war, is another (reaction.)

Perhaps contemplate the difference between growth, and reaction. One is lasting and meaningful, the other is temporary and changeable. I would not make rules based on reaction if possible. The best way I can think of to make sure that you aren't simply reacting, is to take your time and don't make any big decisions when under the influence of big feelings (positive or negative!)

Thanks for taking the time to clarify. I do see your point. I guess I'm just like . . . it's so easy to want to jump at the opportunity to finally get things back to what we were aiming for at the beginning, now that it finally feels possible after turning it over in my head and trying for six months. I hate to think that maybe it's not actually possible after all—that I'm fooling myself or something. I don't feel like I am. But I'm definitely not in any rush for Dustin's sake. Probably the only thing on the "difference between FWB and Relationships" list that I think he'd probably want soonish is the label, and I'm comfortable telling him that we should wait on that, armed with Oona's lovely advice for how to discuss it. All the rest of the stuff on that list, even if the label were eventually acquired, is probably a ways out anyhow, if it ever were to happen at all.

So, last night's date . . .

Dustin picked me up from work, and I gave him the bracelet I made him. I was shocked and amazed to see that it perfectly matched the shirt he was wearing! The stripes of his shirt had alternating colors that were the same as the bracelet cord and beads.

He took me to a part of the city rather near his place that’s really come up in recent years—lots of cool little bars and restaurants and stuff. We went to a gastropub for happy hour and each had a couple of drinks and split an avocado toast. When reaching for the toast with my right hand, I said that we should have sat on the other side since I'm left-handed.

"So am I!" he said. "So we would have been screwed either way!" I didn't realize he was also left-handed since he plays his guitar rightie. Just another odd thing we have in common.

We were so happy to see each other that we couldn't keep our eyes or hands off of each other. He told me all about his trip and how he was constantly rushing from place to place and there was so much driving. I told him I'd been following the adventures pretty closely on his bestie's social media, and he cuddled me tightly and called me "his little stalker," haha. It's so true.

After the gastropub, he wanted to take me to a famous historic hotel nearby, which has a fancy bar with fancy drinks. We walked over there, holding hands, and he detoured for a moment to an alley to show me a mural. It included a depiction of a younger version of him! Selling fruit at the farmer's market like he'd told me he'd done, with long blonde hair. It was cool to see a concrete relic of the stories he'd told.

When we got into the hotel, I was totally wowed by how beautiful it was inside. Dustin ordered himself a gin martini and me a sidecar. We sipped them awhile, cuddling close, and then he suggested we sneak up to the second level. There were beautifully appointed meeting/luncheon rooms up there, each with its own interesting decor and streetview. We lingered looking at the art in each one. Then we found a tiny (almost closet-sized) room with a little empty bar that appeared to be dungeon themed, though it did have a window visible through the bars. We hadn't seen anyone else up on that floor at all, so we took advantage of the solitude to make out furiously. Ugh, I am so attracted to him.

Eventually, tipsy from the cocktails and the NRE, we headed back downstairs. I stopped to use the restroom and he said he'd go pay the tab. But when I met him on the stairs again, he was holding a beautiful cocktail that we'd both admired when our bar neighbor had received one. It was made with this crazy cucumber-aloe liqueur and it was both stunning and delicious. He said he'd gotten it for us to share, so we could spend some time at the upstairs bar too.

We headed up to the upstairs bar, to a room off the side that was much more casual than the downstairs area (but still fancy). It had plush couches, so we grabbed a couch corner next to the window and kinda cuddled and kissed a bit as the sun set. We hung out for a while after finishing the drink so he could regain sobriety enough to drive to dinner. We talked about all kinds of stuff and I just love his mind and his quirky mannerisms.

He has such cool perspectives on life, having traveled and lived and read so much. And he likes to bury his face in my neck and meow. I also meow more than most humans, so I find this familiar and endearing. And he makes the best faces—so expressive. (NRE soup, indeed!)

Dinner was at a Thai place I've driven by a bunch but had never been to. It was delicious! We split a couple dishes and there were leftovers. We also had an interesting conversation in which he told me that his friends had been trying to talk him out of seeing me, citing that I'm married and what was he thinking, and he'd just told them that he wanted to continue and see where things go because he likes me a lot and hasn't really felt this way about anyone. So I guess my brain-monsters were half-right about that part after all. I'm very glad he didn't allow himself to be swayed by their skepticism and concern!

We also discussed when a good time would be for him and Rider to get to know each other a little better. I asked him what he would be most comfortable with, leading with an option that Rider had tossed out: what if we all met up for happy hour and then I could go home with him after? He said he'd prefer for the first hangout to be "less formal" and suggested that Rider and I come to his Sunday show about half an hour before they start. That way we could all hang for a little bit and then Rider and I could catch a bit of the performance before heading home for bedtime. That was actually the thing that *I* had first suggested to Rider, too, but Rider had said that he would prefer something that provided a little more get-to-know-him space.

I thought about it for a second and just told Dustin that that should work. In my opinion, for a very first hangout, and with someone who is completely new to ethical non-monogamy, something low-pressure and casual is fine to start, as well as being kind. If they get along, we can schedule something more intimate—perhaps a jam session—down the line. When I told Rider later, he said it was not ideal but workable. I know this entire way of being is new and seems weird and kinda scary to Dustin, so I really think it's best to move at his pace with the escalating-the-weirdness stuff. I want him to know that he gets to have his own connection with me and I'm not going to constantly force them to hang out if they don't want to. It's like me and Hannah—I liked her fine but she was not someone I'd be friends with on my own, so we didn't hang out much. I really prefer that Rider and Dustin mutually choose their own level of friendship. Kitchen-table is nice, but I definitely see lately that getting there is only possible if it isn't forced. I *think* these two could be buddies, but that's up to both of them.

I insisted on paying for the Thai, since Dustin had insisted on paying for everything else (and I know those cocktails were pricey). After dinner, we went back to Dustin's place. His brother also had a girl over, so we sat around for a while chatting with both of them. It felt nice and domestic, haha. Finally we went to Dustin's room and we had utterly fantastic sex. I discovered the trick to getting Dustin off while using a condom and it is . . . ANAL! LOL! Anal is something I do enjoy, but I can do it with almost no one. It's 100% dependent on size, and Dustin is only the third guy I have been able to make it work with. I tried a couple times with The Ex and there was just no humanly possible way. And the situation in that regard with Rider is even more improbable so I haven't even tried (which Rider is fine with; he says as long as I do it to him, he doesn't have a need to do it to me)! I was sooooo super happy I was finally able to get him off and that we were both able to collapse in a post-orgasmic heap (after washing up a bit).

(continued . . . )

 

[Reverie]

( . . . continued from previous)

As we lay around, we talked more and more. He said he could see doing anything with me—up to and including marriage if that were ever possible, and he's never, ever wanted that with anyone before—but that he knows this is super early, so he's perfectly happy to not plan anything past our trip next weekend. I reminded him that I'm already married to Rider, and that I'm not leaving Rider, and Dustin said he knows. I guess maybe he was thinking back to our conversation about how some poly people marry more than one person, just not legally? I'm not really sure, and I didn't want to go down that rabbit hole of a conversation by even discussing the matter any further.

It's really sweet that he feels so strongly about me that it's stronger than he's ever felt for anyone, but I've known him only a month, and I'm not even available for committed boyfriend/girlfriend things at this point, so that is jumping so far over the gun that the gun is no longer visible in hindsight, lol. NRE makes people think crazy things, I guess. I do always try to be a tempering force when he goes off the rails like that. I also know that this is one conversation that is not making it into Rider's ears anytime soon. He struggles enough with the whole Dustin thing without being given an opportunity to worry about THAT.

Then it was bedtime for me, and he was still exhausted from his trip, so we turned out the lights exactly on time for me to get a full night's sleep. He apologized in advance for if he snores, but I told him that never bothers me. I didn't mention that Rider is King Snore and I never have trouble with his racket. I slept really well next to Dustin, all cuddled up and tangled in each other. I woke just enough throughout the night to periodically snuggle closer and savor him. I also dreamed about him literally all night.

In the morning, we quickly realized that it was going to take less time to get me back to work than we'd originally thought, so we lazed around awhile after the alarm went off, kissing and fooling around a bit. I did NOT want to exit that bed, but he finally offered to make me some iced coffee, which I did want. He freaking spoils me and treats me like a princess! The only other person who has ever done that in my life is Rider. Getting it from both sides is downright decadent!

As he drove me back to work, he suddenly remembered that he had bought sunflower seeds for me as a surprise but had forgotten them at the house! Another thing that only Rider does for me! So freaking sweet. He dropped me off and we kissed goodbye and as I got out of the car, I was already missing him.

Once I was settled into work, I hit Rider up on IM to hear the story of how his date had gone—which was really well! He said he was instantly attracted to her and they had a great time and they had texted in the morning about how they would both like to do it again. They'd parted with only a friendly hug, but I have a feeling that more is on the way. Rider's the kind of person whose innate goodness just grows on people and fosters attraction eventually, so even if she wasn't hot for him right off the bat (and I have no way of even guessing that), she probably will be after a couple more meetings.

I feel true compersion for the first time since . . . jeez . . . I guess I feel it for Rider when he gets to see Allie, but that's different since we were kind of a FWB-triad for a while. I would say since maybe the early days of Claire before she started making Rider's life with me very difficult. So basically since poly-beginnings. I was beginning to think I was no longer capable of it, but apparently I totally am! I am completely empathetically excited for Rider that he's met someone he thinks he could be into.

It's actually pretty amazing because before he found her, he'd said to me once when we were talking about Dustin, "I just wish I had a prospect of my own. Maybe a gothy, freckled redhead who likes foot rubs and cool music." And Rider said the foot rubs topic did not come up but that she checked all the other boxes as well as being a longtime poly and almost as tall as he is. Everything about her sounds like Rider catnip to me! So I'm super happy for him. When he reminded me that he'd said that and it had (mostly so far) come true, I said, "What am I always saying I want? Hmm...Someone I'm actually fucking attracted to who isn't wishy-washy about wanting to be with me!"

"Nailed it!" said Rider.

I've planned my next date with Dustin for Monday, since that's the only day he wasn't gigging that would allow us to see each other before another week had elapsed. It's super convenient how close to my work he lives—less than 3 miles. And plus I get to see him briefly for the Sunday thing.

So. Things are afoot. Exciting things. Fun things. Fucking weird things sometimes? But lots and lots of things. Let's see how well this ship floats when we add one more to the mix!

P.S. Oona and Toby are "taking some time" but are tentatively trying to work things out again. The saga continues.

 

[icesong]

Men who bring you coffee in bed are the most amazing creatures. (I have two of them too, it's blissful af).

 

[Mya]

Yaaay! This all sounds so wonderful, I'm very happy for you!

 

[Spork]

How wonderful all of this sounds!

I would maybe remind Dustin that you can revel in all the happiness of one another...and feeling big feels does not mean you have to DO SOMETHING about it (like labels, marriage, escalation, etc.) He does not need to grab and claim, in order to keep you around and share happy stuff together. A lot of that is social programming, I think, that if you are so into somebody you've got to nail it down before it gets away or someone else claims your person. None of that is applicable here. In a way it could be difficult to tell the socially programmed nattering little aunties in our heads to go fuck themselves, but in all reality I think if we can accept these things, it's so FREEING.

Like ya'll can just keep on being wonderful and happy for so long as it continues to be wonderful and happy for everybody.

As for labels and ceremonies, that stuff should move at the rate of the slowest person to adjust in the situation, and not one bit faster.

(I'm quietly hoping you get to a delightful kitchen table thing eventually that delights everyone for years to come, though.)

 

[Reverie]

Men who bring you coffee in bed are the most amazing creatures. (I have two of them too, it's blissful af).

That's excellent! Sweet, sweet men. I re-read what I wrote and realized I had phrased it ambiguously. Rider and Dustin are not the only to have brought me coffee, but so far the only ones to overall treat me like a princess.

 

[Reverie]

Like ya'll can just keep on being wonderful and happy for so long as it continues to be wonderful and happy for everybody.

This is basically how I'm thinking about it. I don't have any expectations about where it needs to go—none at all. I somewhat suspect that if we can get past this initial hurdle of it all being a weird idea for Dustin, then it might stabilize into a serious long-term thing, but still a thing with an expiration date.

I think, based on some things Dustin has said in passing about what he sees his future looking like, that he eventually wants to find someone to have kids with. I don't think he's planning to be ready for it anytime soon because he's still living the rock-n-roll life. But he talks about stuff like grandkids, etc., and he ADORES babies and children, just totally lighting up when he sees kids playing. So my best guess is that at some point in the whenever future, no matter how well things have gone between him and me, we'll wind it down and come to a natural end in a way that will allow him to search for that. I really don't see that being an issue super soon, though. As much as he loves kids, he loves guitars and drugs more. But who knows! All of this is just 100% speculative. Literally anything could happen.

(I'm quietly hoping you get to a delightful kitchen table thing eventually that delights everyone for years to come, though.)

The strange part is . . . I'm really having a hard time picturing the kitchen-table thing so far with this set of players, and I think I have mentioned it here before, but some of the discomfort is actually on my end. Like, I believe the boys could be friends, and obviously that would be ideal, but I have the hardest time picturing WTF I would do with myself if I were hanging out with both of them in the same room for extended periods of time.

It was easy with Sam because Rider and Sam had been friends for so long that I could just lay across both of them on the couch. And it was easy with Rider and Jake because Rider and Jake liked each other enough to actually kiss each other. And it was easy with Rider and Moss because Rider accepts Moss (who is my ex-husband) as my "other husband" and also my energy with Moss is so mellowed by the passage of time that it was never overbearing.

But Dustin.

When I am with Dustin, I want to be totally and completely wrapped around him the entire time, and I know he feels the same way. And the time we are both available is so limited by our opposite schedules. And I know I can't, at this juncture in time, be totally wrapped around Dustin in Rider's presence. I know that Rider would feel weird if we were all hanging out and I were completely magnetized to Dustin the whole time.

Therefore adding Rider to the mix during time I get to see Dustin would rather . . . thwart . . . my natural inclinations. I'd love for those guys to get along at parties, and maybe Rider and I could come see Dustin play every so often, but I just do not find the idea of hanging out with the two of them in a small-group setting to be as enticing as I have similar situations in the past. I think the only way it could work somewhat comfortably is if Rider had a date with him as well, and we agreed in advance that we were the other person's date and not each other's.

I feel like I almost would rather keep my Dustin time for Dustin, and my Rider time for Rider, at least at first. Maybe after some of the NRE dust settles I will feel differently. It's so weird, though. Before I never really understood the appeal of some degree of separateness (other than sexytimes, of course). And now I do.

 

[Spork]

I think that NRE is part of that, I mean you're still in that phase of learning all of the cool things you have in common and stuff.

Wouldn't it be crazy cool if one day Dustin could find a poly wife? Like you could go on being what you are, and he finds another woman who likes you and you like her and she wants to have his babies but you're still in the picture too? I dunno, it's probably a hippie commune like poly pipe dream or something. I just wish everybody could get what they want and multiply the happiness without shutting anyone else out, if that makes sense?

But not everybody always likes everybody and the odds when you start tacking in more humans always get slimmer that it's all going to be groovy.

Here is hoping at least that whenever the "end" comes around, it's more of an evolution to friendship and no hard feelings for anyone.

 

[Reverie]

I think that NRE is part of that, I mean you're still in that phase of learning all of the cool things you have in common and stuff.

Wouldn't it be crazy cool if one day Dustin could find a poly wife? Like you could go on being what you are, and he finds another woman who likes you and you like her and she wants to have his babies but you're still in the picture too? I dunno, it's probably a hippie commune like poly pipe dream or something. I just wish everybody could get what they want and multiply the happiness without shutting anyone else out, if that makes sense?

But not everybody always likes everybody and the odds when you start tacking in more humans always get slimmer that it's all going to be groovy.

Here is hoping at least that whenever the "end" comes around, it's more of an evolution to friendship and no hard feelings for anyone.

Oh, man, that would be like the ideal cloud-castle improbable dream world. And I'm definitely all about transitioning to friendship. I have remained in friends status with pretty much everyone I've dated, a couple notable exceptions aside. Dustin is so nice that I can't see him being one of the bitter ones, and I am definitely not, either.

I think that if I'm being honest with myself, I'm already in love with Dustin. You ever catch yourself talking out loud when you don't realize you're doing it? It just happened to me. I just looked at a picture of him and my mouth said "I love him" without permission from my brain. I think that I probably have since Perfect Day and have just been hesitant to name the beast too early in the game.

The level of NRE I'm dealing with is far, far past just lust. It's also far past what I've experienced with anyone except Rider. It's like, I am basically a squishy ball of love naturally, but with a lot of people, their stone guard-wall is so up that the ball of love just bounces off, but Dustin is also a squishy ball of love, so the two squishy balls have just squished together to make a bigger squishy ball of love.

The fact that it's built on both intense personality connection as well as physical chemistry; and the fact that we both like so many of the same things; and the fact that we both go so far out of our way to make sure we get to spend time together, and miss each other terribly when we're apart . . . I just feel that feeling that can really only be accurately described as being in love. I love him.

I don't feel driven to any particular action or change as a result of recognizing and naming the feelings, but the feelings are definitely there and getting stronger. I know he feels it too. He's told me almost every time we've been together that it was basically love at first sight for him. I don't really believe in love at first sight. I believe in LUST at first sight, and then love can come swiftly on its heels sometimes. Certainly the fact that *I* chased *him* down at the end of the night after chatting a few times—I just knew I would regret it if I never saw him again—speaks to the level of our connection. Maybe it wasn't instant on my end, but it was close.

I just want him so much, not just in the sexual sense, but in the sense of wanting to deep-dive into his soul and inspect every corner of who he is. It's been a long time since I've met someone I've found so incredibly interesting. He knows and has done so much cool shit and has seen so many cool places and has so many unique opinions and perspectives and is just so completely and unapologetically him. It makes me want to gobble him up like binge-reading a good book with a thousand pages, even if it means losing sleep.

In other poly news, Rider just made a date for Saturday afternoon with a second girl, and he is working on planning a second date with the first girl. The second girl lives a couple hours away and is in town only infrequently, so she'd be more of a sporadic thing if it works out. Two dates in one week! Chick magnet! Rider is already talking about hoping that he can have his THIRD date with the first chick while I am away with Dustin, so maybe sexytimes can ensue. I'm totally fine with that.

I am harboring not-super-secret-but-unspoken hopes that being able to have a girl over while I'm out of town, if it happens, would help him to relax about the idea of Dustin maybe coming over while Rider's out of town over Labor Day weekend. Not that I even know Dustin's schedule that far in advance yet. But I really love the idea of having him over to my place and cooking him dinner at some point, and currently I am not allowed to have other boys in the bed, and I cannot imagine being in a private space with Dustin and not wanting to get in bed with him.

And I just found out that Ayuki wants to come over and hang with me and Rider Sunday afternoon, then come to see Dustin with us. That should make the situation even better, because of Ayuki and Dustin being friends with a lot of history. There won't be so much scrutiny on Dustin, and Rider will get to see how Dustin interacts with friends. So freaking much is happening right now!

 

[Reverie]

Strange processing tonight.

I came across this cool article/trailer of the poly-centered biopic about the creator of Wonder Woman and posted it to Facebook, where Rider "loved" and shared it. He and I were talking about how cool it sounded, and I said, "How amazing would it be to go see that on a double date with other partners?"

My train of thought was something like, "Oh, I would love to see that with Rider . . . hmm, maybe it would also be a good thing to see with Dustin so he could see poly in a non-weird context . . . well, Rider is always wanting more mixing; maybe I could take them both and Rider could bring one of his new dates as well, if something is going well by the time the film comes out!" And then I got all happy and giddy thinking about it.

Daydreaming aloud like this is historically something Rider and I have done a ton of out loud together. But he got really upset this time, which I found completely unexpected. I was confused because if I'm talking about doing something with Dustin, sometimes Rider gets FOMO, but in this case, I was talking about being inclusive (which he usually likes), but that still wasn't good enough—he wanted it all to himself. He told me he felt like he was an afterthought, which was totally not how it went down in my mind. He was the first thought. This isn't the first time over the past couple of days since my last hangout with Dustin where I've stepped on accidental landmines that I had no idea were there because it's stuff that Rider has definitely been fine with in the past with my other partners. So I was just really confused and concerned.

It turned into this whole processing thing where we ended up talking about how Rider might not be happy getting to hang for only half an hour for our Sunday meetup and might not be comfortable till they get an additional hangout. I'd known it wasn't his preference for time and venue, but I figured it was still at least workable. After all, they don't need to be best buds—just a drink or two and a handshake to start seems like plenty to me, like how I got a cup of coffee with Hannah.

Especially with Rider being the one more experienced with non-monogamy and Dustin being the newbie, it seems like we should be trying to go at Dustin's speed with this stuff and hand-hold him a bit, not just kind of toss him into the deep end by forcing multiple multi-partner hangouts.

I asked Rider what he hoped to gain from an additional hangout that he couldn't get in half an hour on Sunday, and his answers were pretty vague. He said he wants to make sure he is "real" to Dustin and that Dustin is "real" to him. Well, half an hour surely confirms human existence. So what else is the issue?

He said he worries about his "situation becoming destabilized" and I asked him what an example would be of that destabilization. He had a hard time coming up with an example, but finally landed on saying that if Dustin turns out to be a bad guy, it'll affect me which will affect him. And I told him he has to be able to trust me that—even if I'm wrong about Dustin and he treats me terribly and I get heartbroken—the goings-on on that arm of the V will not have much, if any, effect on Rider himself. I might mope for a bit, but it doesn't change my situation with Rider. And he thought about it and concurred.

And then he said he wants to see that Dustin "knows that our marriage is important and respects that" and I asked Rider how, exactly, he could see proof of that, no matter the length of the hangout. Especially if Rider doesn't intend on grilling Dustin, like Rider said that he doesn't. And he said it would be a vibe or energy thing.

And I asked Rider what if, after Dustin has done all the things he is supposed to in order to be with me—testing, condoms, agreeing to a meetup—a yet additional meetup might be a hurdle too far at this point, and Rider answered that with something completely illogical: "Well if he's not OK with you being married, it's not going to work anyway." I had to pause for a moment to gather my thoughts because I really had no idea how Rider was conflating "possibly unwilling to make yet more time to hang out with someone he's not yet buddies with at this early juncture" with "not OK with me being married."

I think that Rider wanting a sit-down with Dustin is totally fine and natural, but I don't know why 30 minutes isn't enough. Sure, I was thinking they could maybe hang out sometime down the line when it makes sense, but I definitely didn't think there would need to be a "second round of interview" at the early stages. I don't want being with me to be full of stipulations and weirdness for Dustin. I think requiring a second meetup is kind of an unreasonable request, and I worry that I'm going to end up in the position of having to make Rider unhappy by blocking this request that I view to be unreasonable, because I really don't feel right about bringing it to Dustin when he's been so good and done everything I've asked of him so far. I want to make trying ethical non-monogamy as EASY for him as possible, not even harder so that it drives him away (from me and from the idea, even).

It seems to me that we, as the more experienced people, should be setting the hurdles pretty low for this incoming person. I don't think he should have to go above and beyond to prove that he "respects my marriage" by submitting himself to more and more hurdles if Rider still feels uncomfortable. I don't want to whip Dustin into submission to Rider's desires as a penalty for wanting to be with me.

Thinking about it made me start to cry a little, and I finally had to ask that we stop talking about stuff—super rare for me—because we started to go in circles and Rider just kept saying that he wouldn't know how he felt till after Sunday. So I told him let's ignore the what-ifs (what if 30 minutes isn't enough for Rider to become comfortable) and just try to be optimistic till Sunday that it would go smoothly and be enough. And let's not talk about it much in the meantime.

Because we were getting to a point where I was trying to explain my viewpoint that the hurdles might be unreasonably high for newbies, and Rider said, "I'm not trying to make this difficult for you on purpose or intentionally block anything," when I had not at all suggested or accused him of such, and, in my experience, when conversation devolves into being defensive of things that weren't even being accused, then there is no good left to come of it.

So I don't know. We've left things peaceful but a little strained and definitely unresolved. I want to do this ethically, and I don't think that continuing to raise the bar on Dustin every time he completes something I've asked of him is very ethical. This is all already out of his comfort zone, and he's not going to get MORE comfortable with it if I keep pushing the line of "what makes things OK" farther and farther out.

Why on earth would someone want to be with me—already having to share me and not used to that—if it comes loaded with extra "chores"? Ideally, if I am going to eventually pursue a relationship with him, I'd like it to be a relationship of similar quality to what he'd get if he were dating a single person. I don't want him to feel like he's under Rider's thumb. I will keep going to bat for this because it is important to me, but I can already tell it will get exhausting fast if it continues in this vein.

Hinging is hard, y'all. I hope we soon arrive at some point of "live and let live" where it's enough for Rider to know that I'm happy and to take my word that I'm being treated right, where he's open to being friends with Dustin but not assuming ill intent if it doesn't happen right away. I definitely don't want to get on the "mistreating the outside partner because 'respect the marriage'" train—I've read enough to know that that is just bad juju. Maybe I need to make Rider do some reading, too.

 

[PinkPig]

You know, Reverie, Rider is experienced at poly....but it seems like he's historically been the one in your relationship who has been dating more...while your dating was mostly with mutual friends or people who were in your life pre-Rider. Those people probably feel a lot less threatening to him than new men he doesn't really know, kwim? Maybe he should review some of the worksheets on deconstructing jealousy? Get to the core of the issue. JMHO

 

[Reverie]

You know, Reverie, Rider is experienced at poly....but it seems like he's historically been the one in your relationship who has been dating more...while your dating was mostly with mutual friends or people who were in your life pre-Rider. Those people probably feel a lot less threatening to him than new men he doesn't really know, kwim? Maybe he should review some of the worksheets on deconstructing jealousy? Get to the core of the issue. JMHO

Do you have a source for the worksheets? What I did do so far is pull out my copy of More Than Two (which he promised me in 2015 that he'd read but AFAIK has not yet), leave a kind note on it (he's still asleep and I'm about to run errands for the better part of the morning), and bookmark these sections:

- The "Relationship Bill of Rights": because I feel like there are a few points that he's a little fuzzy on
- The "Nurturing Your Relationships" chapter: because it has good sections on fear of loss and the inevitability of change that have been helpful to me time and again
- The "Taming the Green-Eyed Monster" chapter: self-explanatory
- The chapter on hierarchy: because I've tried to explain to him before the difference between prescriptive and descriptive hierarchies, and he never seems to fully grok it, plus this chapter has great questions at the end
- The section on game changers: because my connection with Dustin has given me some kind of key to quite literally change my mind—for the better, I believe—and even if the connection turns out to be short, I think the change will be enduring

So we'll see! Time to head out on my errands! Having a dinner party tonight for Rider's fan club friends and Cherry!

 

[InfinitePossibility]

Sounds like the reading would be really helpful for Rider. I hope that it is.

It also sounds as though this is something that isn't entirely a poly problem. I hear married couples wrestle with this sort of thing over a variety of topics. Female friends making comments about not being allowed to meet male friends or co-workers for coffee or drinks alone. The women in the writing group I was part of talking about how one or other member had had to stop going because their husband didn't like way that writing was changing them. Women finding that their relationships break down because they are studying for a degree and have changed as they go through the process of learning and meeting new people. The women who've been told by their husband that they may not share their life with another dog. The men who talk about needing to get a pass from their wife to spend time with their friends. The men who've given up sports they love because their wife wants them to go shopping on Saturdays instead. The keen motor bike riders who've given up their hobby because of a spouse who worries it is too dangerous.

It seems to me that it is very common for married folks to feel that it is legitimate for them to make it harder for their spouse to do or experience something new. The story of a man who needs to meet his wife's new friends to make sure they are worthy and that they know he exists is a pretty common one in mono relationships too.

The draw to do it is strong, I think. Somebody or something that comes along and becomes important will change the person who it or they are important to. That change will impact on existing relationships - and it is natural for partners to worry that one day it will spell the end of their union.

To me, the thing to do is to understand that might be the case, to let the feelings be there and do nothing about them. I am sometimes concerned if my partner tells me he is meeting a new and exciting woman for coffee that he'll meet somebody much more compatible and decide to go off and make a life with her - so I do something absorbing. I enjoy my free time. I tell him to have an amazing time. And I remind myself that if he does find somebody who he feels a really strong pull to and wants to be with them rather than me, that it's good for him. He'd be happier. I'd get over the loss.

I don't tell him that I need to meet the new woman when he does or that he can only see her for an hour or so to start with or that I need her to do x, y or z so that I can be sure she knows I exist and am important. I don't need a random stranger to me to know I exist or to feel that I am important. I don't need it if it is a first meeting and I don't need it if it grows into something more where my partner speaks to me often of his attraction to his new friend and tells me that he is meeting her often for drinks after work. Sometimes I meet his new friends and we become friends. Sometimes I don't - these days I often don't because I have new and exciting stuff in my life that keeps me closer to home on the nights my partner tends to meet up with people.

I know you guys can work this out because you do so well at talking to each other and figuring stuff out.

IP.

 

[Tinwen]

I think that Rider wanting a sit-down with Dustin is totally fine and natural, but I don't know why 30 minutes isn't enough. Sure, I was thinking they could maybe hang out sometime down the line when it makes sense, but I definitely didn't think there would need to be a "second round of interview" at the early stages. I don't want being with me to be full of stipulations and weirdness for Dustin. I think requiring a second meetup is kind of an unreasonable request, and I worry that I'm going to end up in the position of having to make Rider unhappy by blocking this request that I view to be unreasonable, because I really don't feel right about bringing it to Dustin when he's been so good and done everything I've asked of him so far. I want to make trying ethical non-monogamy as EASY for him as possible, not even harder so that it drives him away (from me and from the idea, even).

I am more introverted, so I can totally see how 30 min would not be enough - half an hour is hardly enough time for me to get over the weirdness that I'm meeting someone new. Besides, I hate having my meetings limited like that.
Maybe Rider is insecure, but as an upside, maybe he is really hoping to be buddies, and does want a chance to go beyond first impression - which perhaps means a few more drinks
If I was uncomfortable I would not "block the request", but I would ask Rider to bring it up himself. After all, what's wrong with saying, when you have to go after 30 minutes, "You know, I'd rather we had more time so that I can really get to know you, would you meet me/us for...?"

 

[AutumnLeaves]

I normally don't try to give advice on blogs, but I have some thoughts and you seem responsive to feedback here... so I guess just let me know if I'm overstepping.

You seem to be protecting a lot of "should"s on Rider right now without giving a full benefit of the doubt to what he's actually saying. Sure, he's the more experienced polyamorist. But he's telling you what he needs. You can't make him be in a place he's not by wishing that he was there. And while there is work in there for him to do, he's not going to get that work done overnight. Certainly not before he needs to meet Dustin.

And I understand that Dustin isn't familiar with poly, and you don't normally connect this hard, and you really don't want to scare him away. But approaching things from a protective, scarcity space runs the risk of alienating your current relationship for the new one. Easing Dustin into poly absolutely makes sense, but that doesn't mean doing just what he wants to do because anything else makes him uncomfortable. He isn't the last guy, he's not necessarily going to cut and run just because things get hard. And if he is? He's not a good fit. If he's going to be in a relationship with you, that means that he IS going to have to deal with some poly discomforts.

I'm not here telling you that you're doing it wrong <3 These are just some thoughts I've had while reading your saga lately. I don't know the full situation. I can't, you know? So they're just some things to think about.

As far as hinge hell goes... the longer they can't, don't, or won't talk to each other directly, the longer you're going to be in hinge hell, trying to triangulate their needs and wants and hang-ups. It's not a fun place. You have my total empathy.

 

[Reverie]

Thanks for all the thoughts and inputs, you guys. It means a lot that y'all care enough to weigh in.

So. Last night went better than I ever could have even dreamed! I am so freaking proud of those boys that my heart could explode!

The night started off with Ayuki coming over. I made dinner for her and Rider, and we sat around chatting and having a glass of wine. Then Rider had to go back to the practice space because he realized he'd left his mic stands there, so Ayuki and I had some time to chat one on one. We are really becoming good friends quickly.

When Rider got back, Ayuki read us some of her poetry, and Rider and I showed her a couple of our songs. Ayuki had previously told me she, like me, writes songs that are just lyrics and melody and needs someone to put music to them. Rider is really good at that, so while I was in the shower, they worked on one of her songs together.

As the time wore on, I was getting really nervous about the boy meetup, but I powered through. Eventually, it was time to go, and we hopped in a Lyft.

When we first arrived at the bar, Dustin wasn't there yet, but he soon arrived. He went in for a hug with Rider right away, and some of my tension started to ease. Then Dustin had to go around setting up gear and chatting various people up, and I started to get nervous again. What if they never got their chance to properly talk?

But then Ayuki and I went outside for a bit so she could smoke, and when we got back, Rider came up to me immediately and said, "I just wanted to let you know that everything is fine and that guy is totally cool." Apparently, Dustin had waited for Ayuki and me to walk away, then had approached Rider and just hung out shooting the shit with him the entire time we were outside. Rider actually apologized to me for not trusting my judgment of Dustin's character without seeing it for himself. And then he said he's really happy for me.

I was completely gobsmacked.

I did not expect Dustin to step up and make that kind of effort. And I did not expect such a strong positive response from Rider. Literally all my stress melted away, and I just had a fantastic rest of the evening, dancing with Ayuki while Dustin's band played and Rider looked on in admiration of Dustin's fantastic guitar skills. After the set, Rider was just like, "Holy shit, that guy can play!"

We stayed out far later than I had intended, just having way too good of a time. After the show, we all went out back, and Rider and Dustin were talking while Ayuki and I talked. So Rider got his wish about having more than 30 minutes. After a while, it was late and really past time to go home. I had a long goodbye with Dustin, and there were hugs all around.

Ayuki hopped in a Lyft home, but she gave me a nice kiss goodbye. I am not really sure what's happening with her—I'm definitely attracted to her, but a) she's going through an asexual phase right now, so that's not even on the table, and b) if I had to choose one role for her in my life right now, I'd choose friend over partner. I'm just enjoying whatever it is for whatever it is.

When we got home, Rider said to me, "I totally get it now. I can absolutely see why you are so crazy about that guy. It's not the easiest thing to see you so lit up for someone else, but I'm not upset at all anymore—total compersion. He's awesome." And I just died of glowy happiness.

Rider and I had good-but-sleepy sex. I woke up to a text from Dustin thanking us for coming out and saying I drive him crazy in a good way.

So. That all happened. I think we're over a major hump, and hopefully we're done with processing stuff for at least a minute, and life can get back to normal. I just cannot believe how smoothly that all went. I have the best boys in the world! I am so proud of Dustin for stepping up like that, and I am so proud of Rider for being so brave—for both of them being so brave, really.

Dustin even offered his guitar and place on stage to Rider at one point, in case Rider wanted to play! (Rider declined, but the offer was super sweet and super unnecessary.)

With that big news out of the way, here's what the rest of the weekend was like:

Saturday I spent all day prepping for the fan club dinner party, including running a ton of errands. While I prepped, Rider had a date with the second girl. They went to our favorite retro bar for like three hours. He had a good time and said that he wasn't as attracted to this girl as the last one, but the conversation was better. He said he could maybe see an attraction growing, or maybe they'd end up just friends. It was funny that, at one point, I was walking through IKEA and suddenly remembered: oh, Rider's on a date right now! I chuckled to myself at how it was such a non-issue for me anymore that I'd actually forgotten it was happening. This is a far cry from how keyed up I'd feel in the past when he was out with someone new.

The party went really well! The food turned out absolutely delicious. I made seared sea scallops on grit cakes with a Chardonnay beurre blanc; mushrooms stuffed with habanero jack, shallots, and spinach; baked mac and cheese with Parmigiano Reggiano, saffron, and white truffle oil; and banana flan. Cherry got along really well with Rider's fan club friends. Oona and Toby even stopped by for a cocktail after their nearby date. And Cherry and I had some of the best kisses I've had from her while we were waiting for her Lyft. I'm starting to turn the corner with her from "friendly making out" to "actually turned on"—a good sign! I rather like how slow we're taking it.

Yesterday morning, I had brunch with Oona. It was nice to have some girl time with her, no partners around. We lingered over coffee and then I went back to her place and we split a beer while continuing to chat. I told her about all the Rider/Dustin goings on, and she told me about how she and Toby are working stuff out and she's hopeful. We also played with her ridiculously adorable tiny dog.

Yesterday afternoon, we had rehearsal and tried to make a rough recording of some of our songs, but there were technical difficulties (which Rider has since resolved). We're getting pretty good, if I do say so myself. Perry told me that his former bandmate told him after our last show that we're "the best band [Perry] has ever been in."

And that brings us current to the beginning of my post.

I'm seeing Dustin after work tonight and doing an overnight again. I cannot wait to be close to him. The little bit of him I got last night was just an appetizer and left me very hungry for more.

Rider is trying to set up a second date with the first girl for tonight. If they make it to a third date, I'll give her a name here. Rider and I are both sleep-deprived and dragging today, but IMO it was well worth it to have finally demystified Dustin to Rider. A few hours of missed sleep last night is, I believe, acceptable in the name of the ounce of prevention that will prevent many more nights of missed sleep due to processing that would have continued to occur if it hadn't happened.

Tired but happy. Maybe Dustin and I can take a nap later.

 

[Reverie]

My brain is nearly useless for anything but remembering last night and squeeing, so I started this post to jot down little things that I forgot to put in the original, to be edited each time I recall something new.

- The part where Rider said he thinks Dustin is "really pretty" and "photos do not do him justice" and "he looks kind of like a young Gary Oldman."

- Dustin and I exchanging "I love you" when we parted ways.

- How Rider said that having Ayuki there was helpful to him because she seemed to sense when he needed a hug and was hugging and cuddling him.

- How Rider said he purposely left some space at times so that I could be affectionate with Dustin without worrying about Rider.

- Ugh, watching people play music is so sexy...

- Oh, there was the part where Dustin raised his glass to cheers all of us and purposely clinked Rider first. So considerate. I was joking to Rider today that, so, muscle relaxers are a thing that exists, and I think that Dustin is a "spirit relaxer"—so good at finding exactly the right thing to do or say to defuse tension. Rider agreed and said that he definitely felt that same thing last night.