Hi! I'm relatively new to polyamory. I started dating someone a few months ago and while I wasn't looking for this, I'm trying to be open and allow myself to grow and learn about myself. It's been really hard, mostly because while he tells me that "being poly is all about communication," he really doesn't seem to communicate the most important things very well. I'm hoping I can learn from you who've tackled this already!
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Ravenscroft
Banned
You're not at all wrong. Apparently, "being poly" is all about SAYING "being poly is all about communication." 
Like, endlessly repeating "communicatuion is key!" is much easier than actually communicating.
You are of course welcome here. I hope you'll feel free to ask questions, & maybe even to look at your own feelings.
Don't worry about "being made poly" or anything like that. Being interested in someone who is (or claims to be) polyamorous does not make you polyamorous. You're not required to follow some sort of higher moral standard just because someone foists it upon you.
Did you know he was "poly" from the very beginning? or only after you'd found yourself becoming attracted?
What sort of communication do you wish you had from him?
Is there anything stopping you from dating others, if only to have male friends?
What about being open to someone else as well? who would be fine with you having another relationship, & might actually himself be properly polyamorous?
Like, endlessly repeating "communicatuion is key!" is much easier than actually communicating.You are of course welcome here. I hope you'll feel free to ask questions, & maybe even to look at your own feelings.
Don't worry about "being made poly" or anything like that. Being interested in someone who is (or claims to be) polyamorous does not make you polyamorous. You're not required to follow some sort of higher moral standard just because someone foists it upon you.
Did you know he was "poly" from the very beginning? or only after you'd found yourself becoming attracted?
What sort of communication do you wish you had from him?
Is there anything stopping you from dating others, if only to have male friends?
What about being open to someone else as well? who would be fine with you having another relationship, & might actually himself be properly polyamorous?
Hi rubyrae,
Welcome to our forum, I hope we are able to be of help. I can see why you're feeling frustrated with your dating partner, that would bother me too if he wouldn't communicate. Hang in there, and let us know of any questions you may have!
Regards,
Kevin T.
Welcome to our forum, I hope we are able to be of help. I can see why you're feeling frustrated with your dating partner, that would bother me too if he wouldn't communicate. Hang in there, and let us know of any questions you may have!
Regards,
Kevin T.
vinsanity0
Active member
What exactly are the most important things to you? Do YOU communicate that you are not satisfied with the level of communication?
I ask because there is no one set level of communication. There are privacy concerns with other partners. Some things are personal. It's not all cut and dried. Sometimes it takes a little time for two people to reach a level of communication suitable to them both. Every person is different.
For example, my long term partner had very little interest in hearing about anyone else, nor did she particularly care to share all the intimate details of her other partners. Another partner was interested in hearing every little detail I could provide.
Personally, I am comfortable with sharing info as I would with a close friend, while taking into consideration what people want shared.
I ask because there is no one set level of communication. There are privacy concerns with other partners. Some things are personal. It's not all cut and dried. Sometimes it takes a little time for two people to reach a level of communication suitable to them both. Every person is different.
For example, my long term partner had very little interest in hearing about anyone else, nor did she particularly care to share all the intimate details of her other partners. Another partner was interested in hearing every little detail I could provide.
Personally, I am comfortable with sharing info as I would with a close friend, while taking into consideration what people want shared.
Thanks - a long response!
Thanks for your responses. I wrote out a long detailed history, but then I realized it probably wasn't all necessary and actually was more about just me needing to be cathartic. Then, I actually ended up writing out a super long response anyway!
In general, the problem I see with our communication is that I think he is holding back information until his conscience gets the best of him and then he shares with me, which to me says that he's not totally okay with his actions, but wants me to be. Wouldn't he just tell me if he actually felt he was doing the right thing? I don't know if he's holding back because he's afraid of hurting my feelings or because he doesn't want to take my feelings into account at all, or is it because his other girlfriend is manipulating him?
Here are some specifics -
we've been dating 3 months. Right away we talked about how we both wanted kids. We're both around 40, and for me it's kind of do-or-don't crunch time - I think a major reason I've been willing to be less rigid about who I date. But I am NOT just looking for a baby-daddy. I will be really sad if it doesn't happen but I am not willing to have a kid with just anyone.
I didn't know he was poly until after we'd been dating for at least a month. His telling me about his alternative lifestyle seemed to come in waves - starting with his attraction to older women (his ex was older), then to bdsm, then group sex and swinging with certain couples, then another girlfriend he had met recently before me at Saguaro Man, a local burn. During the second month of our relationship, these details sort of emerged one by one over a couple of weeks. Since I really liked him by that point, and I'm fairly open and adventurous, and maybe because I didn't know to what extent these relationships meant to him (since he hadn't told me about them earlier on maybe?), I went along with it, in spite of having put on my online dating profile
where we met that polyamory was not something I was interested in. I asked him about this and I can't remember exactly what he said, but it was along the lines of wanting me to give him a chance and not wanting to scare me off right away. He thought that I wouldn't give him a chance if he put it on his profile - that to me felt very much like a lie of omission. For something that is more and more obviously very important to him, I think he should've been more up front about it.
Another example of what I perceive as a communication problem - over the course of our relationship, as various things have happened, I think I have made it clear that I need time to process new things. I'm not overly assertive about my reactions in part because I don't always recognize them right away and need time to put words to the feelings. He knows this as it has happened several times (it took me a day and a half to tell him how I felt about him having sex with his girlfriend in the same bed as us).
This week we were both traveling - me for work and him for fun (with his girlfriend, to Burning Man). Last weekend, I was already feeling vulnerable and afraid about him going away for two weeks with someone else, and some things happened with his plans for preparation and we had a sort of argument about his other girlfriend taking up a lot of his time right before they were going to be away together. I felt neglected and told him so, and we ended up spending the bulk of the weekend together (I was grateful). Then, a day before I was supposed to leave, and when I was in the middle of very stressful work, he asked if he could come over. Silly me, I was excited to see him because I thought that he was feeling anxious about leaving me and not getting to see me for 2 weeks (like I was feeling about him). But he actually wanted to tell me that he was planning to have sex without condoms with his girlfriend (we have been fluid bonded for about 6 weeks and he made it clear that he was not fluid bonded with anyone else. We had tests etc.). In fact, his other girlfriend had given him an ultimatum that he would not be invited to sleep with her if he was planning to use condoms. He then wanted to give me all the reasons why it was the right decision - he trusts her, she doesn't have penetrative sex with her husband, she gets chaffing from condoms, etc. He is very focused on the "safety" aspect of it, but for me it signals something more intimate, and I had a problem with his willingness to let her decide for him (he made it seem that way anyway. Like it was out of his hands. But honestly I wonder if that was a way of deferring responsibility for something that he actually really wanted to do. I don't know if I trust him to tell me the real reason.)
He was obviously feeling anxious about telling me - and he said that he was even thinking that he wouldn't go. But this is Burning Man, and he had been very excited about going for a long time. His other girlfriend is the manager of a big camp and he is staying in her posh camper, out of the sand and wind, and he likes being her stud and will certainly shine as a stud while there. He kept telling me how grateful he was that I was supportive about him going, though that felt very manipulative - like telling someone you're really happy they're so happy for you when actually they're crying. I felt like he put me in a bad position to insist that he DID go, and that's what I said, and I meant it.
My immediate initial response was that I would not have unprotected sex with him if he had unprotected sex with someone else. But then he said that he wished I would just listen to him and not say anything. He just wanted to talk at me. (But in the past, when something has bothered me, he has gotten upset that I didn't immediately tell him what I was feeling.)
I can't stress enough how stressful the two days before my trip were. I had shirked all of my work duties in order to maximize our time together, and then was scrambling to finish everything, but instead we spent hours discussing him having unprotected sex with DR. He told me he had been thinking about it for a long time, and that his therapist had told him not to tell me, but that he was feeling guilty because "that's not what polyamory is all about."
So, although I do think we have different expectations for our relationship, and I am still working very much from a monogamous view, my main problem is that I don't know how to begin to trust him when he doesn't tell me these very important things about himself. And I don't know what he means when he says I can trust him (trust him to do what?). It also feels like this other woman is able to give him ultimatums and dictate when we are together, which he happily acquiesces to, but he insists that WE not have rules, he doesn't like hierarchies, he doesn't want ME to have any sort of veto power. (But then he still says he see me as being more important or having a deeper relationship, because he sees us as having a future and wants us to have kids.) That seems paradoxical to me. I understand Burning Man is an exceptional experience, and partly I feel neglected and left out, and taken for granted. In other situations, I have felt like he expected me to wait for him at home, not ask about his plans, not make any demands, while he has to show the utmost respect for the other people he is having sex with. (Specifically, he texts other people while we're hanging out, but when I asked him if he would check in with me cause it felt like he went into a black hole on the nights he slept with others, he said he thought that it was rude to text when he's with someone.)
He says that he wants us to be able to talk about things, but then it FEELS more like him telling me what he's going to do and expecting me to have a certain kind of reaction or no reaction at all. He wants me to feel compersion, but I don't believe that I can force myself to feel that. I believe that it takes time and that trust has to be built. And he apparently doesn't trust me either, or he would have told me earlier.
Writing that made me realize that maybe this is just an exercise in our building trust in each other, and it could be a really positive thing. But I'm afraid that he will get the message that I am easily placated and that he can really just do anything - that his actions don't have consequences for me, whether real like STIs, or abstract like hurting my feelings. I'm afraid of being taken for granted, and I'm afraid of wasting time trying to be flexible only to end up broken hearted anyway. (The fact that I'm almost 40 and want to have kids should be an obvious factor in my fear - I spent a lot of my past afraid to settle, and now I'm tired and afraid of being alone. I have been trying to work on that for the past couple of years but I haven't gotten to the place where I feel comfortable making decisions when relationships get hard.)
And while I really care about him, and we have a lot of shared values and shared life goals, I am conflicted about how much time to devote to developing our relationship when what I perceive as our main issue doesn't seem to be getting easier. Does it get easier? Is it too early in our relationship to know? What if I'm just mono? It's so early still, but it feels long enough for me to say I'd rather refrain from unprotected sex with someone else in order to protect something I see as having potential to fulfill one of my life goals; and it hurts me that he doesn't feel that way.
Thanks for your responses. I wrote out a long detailed history, but then I realized it probably wasn't all necessary and actually was more about just me needing to be cathartic. Then, I actually ended up writing out a super long response anyway!
In general, the problem I see with our communication is that I think he is holding back information until his conscience gets the best of him and then he shares with me, which to me says that he's not totally okay with his actions, but wants me to be. Wouldn't he just tell me if he actually felt he was doing the right thing? I don't know if he's holding back because he's afraid of hurting my feelings or because he doesn't want to take my feelings into account at all, or is it because his other girlfriend is manipulating him?
Here are some specifics -
we've been dating 3 months. Right away we talked about how we both wanted kids. We're both around 40, and for me it's kind of do-or-don't crunch time - I think a major reason I've been willing to be less rigid about who I date. But I am NOT just looking for a baby-daddy. I will be really sad if it doesn't happen but I am not willing to have a kid with just anyone.
I didn't know he was poly until after we'd been dating for at least a month. His telling me about his alternative lifestyle seemed to come in waves - starting with his attraction to older women (his ex was older), then to bdsm, then group sex and swinging with certain couples, then another girlfriend he had met recently before me at Saguaro Man, a local burn. During the second month of our relationship, these details sort of emerged one by one over a couple of weeks. Since I really liked him by that point, and I'm fairly open and adventurous, and maybe because I didn't know to what extent these relationships meant to him (since he hadn't told me about them earlier on maybe?), I went along with it, in spite of having put on my online dating profile
where we met that polyamory was not something I was interested in. I asked him about this and I can't remember exactly what he said, but it was along the lines of wanting me to give him a chance and not wanting to scare me off right away. He thought that I wouldn't give him a chance if he put it on his profile - that to me felt very much like a lie of omission. For something that is more and more obviously very important to him, I think he should've been more up front about it.
Another example of what I perceive as a communication problem - over the course of our relationship, as various things have happened, I think I have made it clear that I need time to process new things. I'm not overly assertive about my reactions in part because I don't always recognize them right away and need time to put words to the feelings. He knows this as it has happened several times (it took me a day and a half to tell him how I felt about him having sex with his girlfriend in the same bed as us).
This week we were both traveling - me for work and him for fun (with his girlfriend, to Burning Man). Last weekend, I was already feeling vulnerable and afraid about him going away for two weeks with someone else, and some things happened with his plans for preparation and we had a sort of argument about his other girlfriend taking up a lot of his time right before they were going to be away together. I felt neglected and told him so, and we ended up spending the bulk of the weekend together (I was grateful). Then, a day before I was supposed to leave, and when I was in the middle of very stressful work, he asked if he could come over. Silly me, I was excited to see him because I thought that he was feeling anxious about leaving me and not getting to see me for 2 weeks (like I was feeling about him). But he actually wanted to tell me that he was planning to have sex without condoms with his girlfriend (we have been fluid bonded for about 6 weeks and he made it clear that he was not fluid bonded with anyone else. We had tests etc.). In fact, his other girlfriend had given him an ultimatum that he would not be invited to sleep with her if he was planning to use condoms. He then wanted to give me all the reasons why it was the right decision - he trusts her, she doesn't have penetrative sex with her husband, she gets chaffing from condoms, etc. He is very focused on the "safety" aspect of it, but for me it signals something more intimate, and I had a problem with his willingness to let her decide for him (he made it seem that way anyway. Like it was out of his hands. But honestly I wonder if that was a way of deferring responsibility for something that he actually really wanted to do. I don't know if I trust him to tell me the real reason.)
He was obviously feeling anxious about telling me - and he said that he was even thinking that he wouldn't go. But this is Burning Man, and he had been very excited about going for a long time. His other girlfriend is the manager of a big camp and he is staying in her posh camper, out of the sand and wind, and he likes being her stud and will certainly shine as a stud while there. He kept telling me how grateful he was that I was supportive about him going, though that felt very manipulative - like telling someone you're really happy they're so happy for you when actually they're crying. I felt like he put me in a bad position to insist that he DID go, and that's what I said, and I meant it.
My immediate initial response was that I would not have unprotected sex with him if he had unprotected sex with someone else. But then he said that he wished I would just listen to him and not say anything. He just wanted to talk at me. (But in the past, when something has bothered me, he has gotten upset that I didn't immediately tell him what I was feeling.)
I can't stress enough how stressful the two days before my trip were. I had shirked all of my work duties in order to maximize our time together, and then was scrambling to finish everything, but instead we spent hours discussing him having unprotected sex with DR. He told me he had been thinking about it for a long time, and that his therapist had told him not to tell me, but that he was feeling guilty because "that's not what polyamory is all about."
So, although I do think we have different expectations for our relationship, and I am still working very much from a monogamous view, my main problem is that I don't know how to begin to trust him when he doesn't tell me these very important things about himself. And I don't know what he means when he says I can trust him (trust him to do what?). It also feels like this other woman is able to give him ultimatums and dictate when we are together, which he happily acquiesces to, but he insists that WE not have rules, he doesn't like hierarchies, he doesn't want ME to have any sort of veto power. (But then he still says he see me as being more important or having a deeper relationship, because he sees us as having a future and wants us to have kids.) That seems paradoxical to me. I understand Burning Man is an exceptional experience, and partly I feel neglected and left out, and taken for granted. In other situations, I have felt like he expected me to wait for him at home, not ask about his plans, not make any demands, while he has to show the utmost respect for the other people he is having sex with. (Specifically, he texts other people while we're hanging out, but when I asked him if he would check in with me cause it felt like he went into a black hole on the nights he slept with others, he said he thought that it was rude to text when he's with someone.)
He says that he wants us to be able to talk about things, but then it FEELS more like him telling me what he's going to do and expecting me to have a certain kind of reaction or no reaction at all. He wants me to feel compersion, but I don't believe that I can force myself to feel that. I believe that it takes time and that trust has to be built. And he apparently doesn't trust me either, or he would have told me earlier.
Writing that made me realize that maybe this is just an exercise in our building trust in each other, and it could be a really positive thing. But I'm afraid that he will get the message that I am easily placated and that he can really just do anything - that his actions don't have consequences for me, whether real like STIs, or abstract like hurting my feelings. I'm afraid of being taken for granted, and I'm afraid of wasting time trying to be flexible only to end up broken hearted anyway. (The fact that I'm almost 40 and want to have kids should be an obvious factor in my fear - I spent a lot of my past afraid to settle, and now I'm tired and afraid of being alone. I have been trying to work on that for the past couple of years but I haven't gotten to the place where I feel comfortable making decisions when relationships get hard.)
And while I really care about him, and we have a lot of shared values and shared life goals, I am conflicted about how much time to devote to developing our relationship when what I perceive as our main issue doesn't seem to be getting easier. Does it get easier? Is it too early in our relationship to know? What if I'm just mono? It's so early still, but it feels long enough for me to say I'd rather refrain from unprotected sex with someone else in order to protect something I see as having potential to fulfill one of my life goals; and it hurts me that he doesn't feel that way.
powerpuffgrl1969
Active member
I would think that your desire to have kids would put you OFF this guy being the potential father. If he is having unprotected sex with other people, then how can you be expected to have unprotected sex with HIM? If you DON'T have unprotected sex with him, you can't get pregnant.
Seems pretty straightforward to me. Don't waste any more of your time.
Seems pretty straightforward to me. Don't waste any more of your time.
breathemusic
Active member
So he wants you to listen to him, but he doesn't want to listen to you and what's important to you? Nope. Double standard.
If you have a boundary that you're not willing to have unprotected sex with someone unless they're only having protected sex with other people, then it sounds like when he comes back and confirms that he DID have unprotected sex with his other partner, then you just need to stick to your boundary and say "ok, I guess it's condoms from here on out for you and I." And if he bitches, then you can tell him that you told him where your boundaries stood and he made a choice. Now you're making yours.
It's not his job to convince you of why your boundaries are wrong. They're your boundaries.
This whole thing also now makes me question... would he tell you that he was having unprotected sex if he thought that it would make you change being fluid bonded with him? I just get an UGH feeling about that entire post you wrote.
If you have a boundary that you're not willing to have unprotected sex with someone unless they're only having protected sex with other people, then it sounds like when he comes back and confirms that he DID have unprotected sex with his other partner, then you just need to stick to your boundary and say "ok, I guess it's condoms from here on out for you and I." And if he bitches, then you can tell him that you told him where your boundaries stood and he made a choice. Now you're making yours.
It's not his job to convince you of why your boundaries are wrong. They're your boundaries.
This whole thing also now makes me question... would he tell you that he was having unprotected sex if he thought that it would make you change being fluid bonded with him? I just get an UGH feeling about that entire post you wrote.
vinsanity0
Active member
Is anybody else creeped out that this guy's therapist told him not to tell her about having unprotected sex with someone else (assuming he's not lying about that)?
Quite frankly, I'm having a hard time seeing how you can trust him at all. Probably not what you want to hear. First, he took way too long to tell you about his "polyness". Basically he waited until you were hooked, and after reading you weren't interested in that. So, yes, he did lie.
Then he actually struggled with bringing up the subject of having unprotected sex with other partners, waiting to use up the time you two should have been spending together before he left on a heavy discussion.
Yet he wants to communicate, until you aren't going for what he's selling. Then you should just listen. Keeping things from you because you might not like it...or, as you call it, not wanting to hurt you. Well, if it's going to hurt you then you need to know about it so you can make decisions. Communication isn't about withholding important information. That is manipulation.
Are you even sure he was serious about eventually wanting children? Or did he just say yes to hook you a little more?
Sorry this all sounds so negative. you really haven't given me any positive to work with. I would at least question his sincerity in everything. And hey, nothing is stopping you from dating other people. Who knows, you may find someone more suitable.
Quite frankly, I'm having a hard time seeing how you can trust him at all. Probably not what you want to hear. First, he took way too long to tell you about his "polyness". Basically he waited until you were hooked, and after reading you weren't interested in that. So, yes, he did lie.
Then he actually struggled with bringing up the subject of having unprotected sex with other partners, waiting to use up the time you two should have been spending together before he left on a heavy discussion.
Yet he wants to communicate, until you aren't going for what he's selling. Then you should just listen. Keeping things from you because you might not like it...or, as you call it, not wanting to hurt you. Well, if it's going to hurt you then you need to know about it so you can make decisions. Communication isn't about withholding important information. That is manipulation.
Are you even sure he was serious about eventually wanting children? Or did he just say yes to hook you a little more?
Sorry this all sounds so negative. you really haven't given me any positive to work with. I would at least question his sincerity in everything. And hey, nothing is stopping you from dating other people. Who knows, you may find someone more suitable.
Marcus
Well-known member
Ye old Bait and Switch.
There are two big problems with this association. One of them is the fact that this guy clearly finds honesty to be a punch line, and the other is that you are going along with it.
There is some work to be done here, not with this busted up relationship (that just needs to be tossed in the trash), but with your self-value. I suggest taking a look at getting some therapy to go over where you are emotionally, how you cope with life, and why you approach relationships the way you do.
I sincerely wish you the best.
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Too much drama for me. I'd walk away.
You can find weirdos in mono dating. It isn't like poly dating is "weirdo proof." You can find them there too. Have you considered that?
Why be your own con man and talk yourself into things you do not want?
Quit him and this situation. From the starting gate this is not a match.
Then there's this laundry list of other things that are also not a match. Could have skipped it all from the beginning and saved yourself the trouble.
He was not up front/honest with you from the beginning. More like testing to see what he can get out of you. He read your profile and pursued anyway. And when you learned about it? You didn't drop him. Instead you bent the boundary/let it go. So he learned that you say things you do not mean, or say things you can be talked out of.
There is a personality that sees boundaries as "challenges" to break down. Sounds like he's playing head games with you and breaking down the rest of your lines in the sand one at a time. You go along with it. And later go "Wait a minute...this feels bad." Then feel uncertain because what he SAYS and what he DOES do not match. He says all these pretty loving things. But how he behaves is less than loving/respectful.
Ok. You see when you are being manipulated. Why continue with a manipulator?
Your body belongs to you. If you want to use protection because he's going bareback with someone else? That's your body and your choice. Why's he trying to snow you so he can go bareback whenever he wants with whoever?
Talking AT you is not talking WITH you. I note how he shut you up.
You know that's a total lie right? No therapist would tell him to keep secrets about sex health hygiene from his sex partners. What crap therapist would that be? And you noticed how he always has to be the "hero" in his soap opera right? This time he was being the "poly champion" against the "mean ol' therapist."
When really... if his therapist is crap? He could FIRE that therapist and seek a new one. You already noted elsewhere that he doesn't like taking personal responsibility.
Sounds like he wants the world revolves around him. You seem to see it clearly enough. He's the "star" of the show. Screw everyone else.
How about you decide NOT to trust him? Because you observe him behaving all hinky and he doesn't treat you well. Some people simple are not trustworthy.
So far? He CAN do whatever. There's no real consequence. You fuss a little, and do nothing. Which teaches him that you will make some noise, but still go along with whatever.
I'm not trying to be mean to you. I'm telling you this doesn't look so good to a stranger on the outside. Are you able to see that it doesn't look good from the inside?
You seem to see clear enough that this guy is bad news. So rather than bend yourself into pretzels trying to trust someone you do not actually find trustworthy? Say thank you, but it isn't working out and bow out. Part ways. Block him on your phone and things.
He can move on to someone else. You don't have to be in his soap opera.
If you decide you want to do poly eventually? You can do it with people other than him.
If this is all an exercise in trust? Maybe it's that you need to learn to trust your OWN SELF to keep you safe from harm. Rather than second guess yourself or talk yourself into yucky things.
When the inner smoke alarm starts ringing? You LISTEN and try to put out the fire if small. If too much and not able to do that? You get out of the house to save yourself. You do not get a hammer to smack the smoke alarm to make it stop beeping and risk dying in a fire.
Get out of the house. Quit him and this situation. He doesn't help you put out fires. He goes around lighting them.
You could have a child on your own -- maybe you could consider what that might look like.
Confidence is grown by DOING. Like a muscle you exercise. It doesn't arrive from the sky. If you want to be more confident in making hard decisions? You start doing them even if uncomfortable. So that over time? You are more comfortable just doing it and getting it done.
Relationships aren't supposed to be super hard. People either get along or they do not. They know how to work things out or not.
A fear of being alone or feeling tired of being alone? Neither one means you choose to hang around with a weirdo sounding person. It's better to be (healthy and on your own) than (sign up for the "companionship" of mind games with a weirdo.) Or at least I think so.
Maybe that is something to work on by yourself. Articulating (what you want in a partner) and (what you do NOT want.) What your personal standards actually ARE. So you can trust yourself to vet your potential dates against that personal standard. They either make the bar or not. You don't have to feel about about breaking up with people who are not compatible.
And if you are clearer about your personal standards? You can skip the messy people and "set up odds for success" more by shopping in the right store from the beginning. If someone doesn't meet your personal standard already when it is at the profile sharing level? You let them go and keep on looking. Save yourself the trouble later.
And so you do NOT get talked into stuff you don't really want by other people or by you being your own con man. Any time you have doubts? You can pull the list out and look at it and measure.
I think in this case? You felt lonely. So you answered to a lower value. (Being not alone) rather than answer to a higher value (not settling for just anyone who comes along, even weirdos.)
Understandable. Things happen. We are all human.
But you don't have to stay there. Dust yourself off, and move on to something better than this. That's what I would do in your shoes.
HTH!
Galagirl
You can find weirdos in mono dating. It isn't like poly dating is "weirdo proof." You can find them there too. Have you considered that?
Why be your own con man and talk yourself into things you do not want?
Quit him and this situation. From the starting gate this is not a match.
Then there's this laundry list of other things that are also not a match. Could have skipped it all from the beginning and saved yourself the trouble.
He was not up front/honest with you from the beginning. More like testing to see what he can get out of you. He read your profile and pursued anyway. And when you learned about it? You didn't drop him. Instead you bent the boundary/let it go. So he learned that you say things you do not mean, or say things you can be talked out of.
There is a personality that sees boundaries as "challenges" to break down. Sounds like he's playing head games with you and breaking down the rest of your lines in the sand one at a time. You go along with it. And later go "Wait a minute...this feels bad." Then feel uncertain because what he SAYS and what he DOES do not match. He says all these pretty loving things. But how he behaves is less than loving/respectful.
Ok. You see when you are being manipulated. Why continue with a manipulator?
Your body belongs to you. If you want to use protection because he's going bareback with someone else? That's your body and your choice. Why's he trying to snow you so he can go bareback whenever he wants with whoever?
Talking AT you is not talking WITH you. I note how he shut you up.
You know that's a total lie right? No therapist would tell him to keep secrets about sex health hygiene from his sex partners. What crap therapist would that be? And you noticed how he always has to be the "hero" in his soap opera right? This time he was being the "poly champion" against the "mean ol' therapist."
When really... if his therapist is crap? He could FIRE that therapist and seek a new one. You already noted elsewhere that he doesn't like taking personal responsibility.
Sounds like he wants the world revolves around him. You seem to see it clearly enough. He's the "star" of the show. Screw everyone else.
How about you decide NOT to trust him? Because you observe him behaving all hinky and he doesn't treat you well. Some people simple are not trustworthy.
So far? He CAN do whatever. There's no real consequence. You fuss a little, and do nothing. Which teaches him that you will make some noise, but still go along with whatever.
I'm not trying to be mean to you. I'm telling you this doesn't look so good to a stranger on the outside. Are you able to see that it doesn't look good from the inside?
You seem to see clear enough that this guy is bad news. So rather than bend yourself into pretzels trying to trust someone you do not actually find trustworthy? Say thank you, but it isn't working out and bow out. Part ways. Block him on your phone and things.
He can move on to someone else. You don't have to be in his soap opera.
If you decide you want to do poly eventually? You can do it with people other than him.
- People who are up front and honest and do not lie.
- People who do NOT make you afraid.
- People who do NOT start your inner alarm bells ringing.
If this is all an exercise in trust? Maybe it's that you need to learn to trust your OWN SELF to keep you safe from harm. Rather than second guess yourself or talk yourself into yucky things.
When the inner smoke alarm starts ringing? You LISTEN and try to put out the fire if small. If too much and not able to do that? You get out of the house to save yourself. You do not get a hammer to smack the smoke alarm to make it stop beeping and risk dying in a fire.
Get out of the house. Quit him and this situation. He doesn't help you put out fires. He goes around lighting them.
You could have a child on your own -- maybe you could consider what that might look like.
Confidence is grown by DOING. Like a muscle you exercise. It doesn't arrive from the sky. If you want to be more confident in making hard decisions? You start doing them even if uncomfortable. So that over time? You are more comfortable just doing it and getting it done.
Relationships aren't supposed to be super hard. People either get along or they do not. They know how to work things out or not.
A fear of being alone or feeling tired of being alone? Neither one means you choose to hang around with a weirdo sounding person. It's better to be (healthy and on your own) than (sign up for the "companionship" of mind games with a weirdo.) Or at least I think so.
Maybe that is something to work on by yourself. Articulating (what you want in a partner) and (what you do NOT want.) What your personal standards actually ARE. So you can trust yourself to vet your potential dates against that personal standard. They either make the bar or not. You don't have to feel about about breaking up with people who are not compatible.
And if you are clearer about your personal standards? You can skip the messy people and "set up odds for success" more by shopping in the right store from the beginning. If someone doesn't meet your personal standard already when it is at the profile sharing level? You let them go and keep on looking. Save yourself the trouble later.
And so you do NOT get talked into stuff you don't really want by other people or by you being your own con man. Any time you have doubts? You can pull the list out and look at it and measure.
I think in this case? You felt lonely. So you answered to a lower value. (Being not alone) rather than answer to a higher value (not settling for just anyone who comes along, even weirdos.)
Understandable. Things happen. We are all human.
But you don't have to stay there. Dust yourself off, and move on to something better than this. That's what I would do in your shoes.
HTH!
Galagirl
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Validated, but sad
You know that feeling when a bunch of people tell you you're right for feeling icky about something your bf does but then you kinda just want to defend him? Yeah, that's what I'm feeling now, probably because while you've all read about the icky stuff, there's also been some really good stuff too. I am trying not to dwell on it too much this week while he's gone (he gets back Tuesday), but I have gone ahead and restarted my online dating profiles. I think the least I can do is consider dating others and see where it goes.
I have to tell you though that it has gotten even more complicated, or maybe you will think more obvious about how manipulative he can be. Before he went out of phone service he told me that he had left me something on my back porch. It was a promise ring and a set of pens, hastily put into a bag with crinkled tissue paper. I'm not going to quote the full note that was inside, but the highlights are "thank you for trusting in me," "your trust isn't misplaced," "think of me when you see these things," and "you make me so happy." During our conversation that night about DR and no condoms, he seemed stuck on the idea that all I needed was a symbol of his commitment to me (and yes, I understand unprotected sex could be seen as "only" symbolic if you have full trust in the safety of it. But of course there's more than just unprotected sex happening here). He asked me if there was any other way that he could show his commitment and I guess now I know he was hinting that he would give me a ring.
But of course the ring is fraught with problems. It feels like a last ditch attempt to placate me. It feels like an immature way to try to save a relationship instead of taking my feelings into consideration. It feels like throwing a teeny hunk of metal at a fire to try to put it out.
He wants me to continuously think about him while he's off having the time of his life, including unprotected sex with his other girlfriend? That's sort of cruel.
I want to understand his motivation - probably he thinks that this is a good way to show me that he's "coming home" to me, or that he's PLANNING to commit after the Burn, but instead it feels ridiculous, like the "Best Friend Forever" necklaces I had in middle school. I remember two of my friends exchanging those necklaces (after I had already done so with one of them) and it was so hurtful. But that was 7th grade! What is he "promising" me with this ring? Again, trust in him to do what?
I'm not doing a very good job of defending him, am I?
I can't wait for him to get home so we can resolve it, however that may be. Is there really no chance that he could be sincere, and just struggling to do it right? Is it possible for us to go back to the beginning, sort of, just take a step back (including the fluid bonding, especially)? I feel like I want to understand how important Burning Man was to him - something that he was planning before we got serious.
You know that feeling when a bunch of people tell you you're right for feeling icky about something your bf does but then you kinda just want to defend him? Yeah, that's what I'm feeling now, probably because while you've all read about the icky stuff, there's also been some really good stuff too. I am trying not to dwell on it too much this week while he's gone (he gets back Tuesday), but I have gone ahead and restarted my online dating profiles. I think the least I can do is consider dating others and see where it goes.
I have to tell you though that it has gotten even more complicated, or maybe you will think more obvious about how manipulative he can be. Before he went out of phone service he told me that he had left me something on my back porch. It was a promise ring and a set of pens, hastily put into a bag with crinkled tissue paper. I'm not going to quote the full note that was inside, but the highlights are "thank you for trusting in me," "your trust isn't misplaced," "think of me when you see these things," and "you make me so happy." During our conversation that night about DR and no condoms, he seemed stuck on the idea that all I needed was a symbol of his commitment to me (and yes, I understand unprotected sex could be seen as "only" symbolic if you have full trust in the safety of it. But of course there's more than just unprotected sex happening here). He asked me if there was any other way that he could show his commitment and I guess now I know he was hinting that he would give me a ring.
But of course the ring is fraught with problems. It feels like a last ditch attempt to placate me. It feels like an immature way to try to save a relationship instead of taking my feelings into consideration. It feels like throwing a teeny hunk of metal at a fire to try to put it out.
He wants me to continuously think about him while he's off having the time of his life, including unprotected sex with his other girlfriend? That's sort of cruel.
I want to understand his motivation - probably he thinks that this is a good way to show me that he's "coming home" to me, or that he's PLANNING to commit after the Burn, but instead it feels ridiculous, like the "Best Friend Forever" necklaces I had in middle school. I remember two of my friends exchanging those necklaces (after I had already done so with one of them) and it was so hurtful. But that was 7th grade! What is he "promising" me with this ring? Again, trust in him to do what?
I'm not doing a very good job of defending him, am I?
I can't wait for him to get home so we can resolve it, however that may be. Is there really no chance that he could be sincere, and just struggling to do it right? Is it possible for us to go back to the beginning, sort of, just take a step back (including the fluid bonding, especially)? I feel like I want to understand how important Burning Man was to him - something that he was planning before we got serious.
One more thing
In response to Galagirl's suggestion to articulate what I want and don't want (sorry, quotes not working on my phone), I wanted to say that I'm reluctant to do that because of how limiting it can be. Even on this forum, I've read people's posts saying not to try to predetermine what your relationships will look like. I take that to heart very seriously, not just in relationships but in real life. I feel more inclined to try things that I can't guess the ending to. I'm not sure why. Maybe it's because of the way I was brought up (super fundamentalist Christian) and I want to rebel against the idea that there is only one way to do things. That said, I know my boundaries are unclear, even to myself, and that could mean I'll continue to be hurt over and over again.
In response to Galagirl's suggestion to articulate what I want and don't want (sorry, quotes not working on my phone), I wanted to say that I'm reluctant to do that because of how limiting it can be. Even on this forum, I've read people's posts saying not to try to predetermine what your relationships will look like. I take that to heart very seriously, not just in relationships but in real life. I feel more inclined to try things that I can't guess the ending to. I'm not sure why. Maybe it's because of the way I was brought up (super fundamentalist Christian) and I want to rebel against the idea that there is only one way to do things. That said, I know my boundaries are unclear, even to myself, and that could mean I'll continue to be hurt over and over again.
I'm sorry. I can imagine it feels good to be validated like... "Good. I am not crazy for thinking this smells off."
And at the same time be like "Crap! This really stinks!" because it is a huge disappointment to see this BF without the rosy-glasses any more.
I think having mixed feelings right now is understandable. *hug*
Sounds like you see clear enough to me. He threw you some "roses" to make sure you were still on the string before he took off. And it seems like "fake roses" to you -- not sincere. What IS he promising you really? I don't see it.
You could say "No thanks" to any rings. If you choose to keep on dating him? Tell him you expect condoms on with YOU. Do whatever burning man things with his other GF and whatever sex practices they do together.
But with YOU? It is like THIS. Because you make the decisions about how you share your body. If he wants to show commitment to you? He can respect your safer sex practices and use birth control/barrier methods and whatever else you use. If he cannot do that? Stop sharing sex with him.
Because it IS your body. You can decide to use protection how YOU want. Throwing you presents doesn't mean he gets to go bareback with you and whoever else all willy nilly. If the other lady agrees and is cool with that -- that's her look out.
You don't have to be. Your health is your job. You can have your OWN preferences and they do not have to be like hers.
I can make a list for what traits I want in a partner (honest, trustworthy, doesn't lie, holds down a job, responsible, etc) and what I don't want (alcoholic, druggies, deadbeat dad, cannot hold down a job, moochy person, etc.)
And I'm still not predetermining what the relationship will look like.
We could end up only friends, FWB, BF/GF, something more committed, etc. It could be an Open V, a Closed V, a quad... whatever it is.
I am willing to let that unfold how it will.
I am NOT willing to take up with wonky or obviously incompatible people though. Why waste my time? Or open myself to avoidable hearth ache?
To me? There is freedom FROM things and freedom TO do things.
I do not see me having personal standards for who I will and will not hang around with as "limiting." I see it as freeing me FROM having to deal with too many wackies.
I am still free TO let my relationships unfold as they will.
Galagirl
And at the same time be like "Crap! This really stinks!" because it is a huge disappointment to see this BF without the rosy-glasses any more.
I think having mixed feelings right now is understandable. *hug*
Sounds like you see clear enough to me. He threw you some "roses" to make sure you were still on the string before he took off. And it seems like "fake roses" to you -- not sincere. What IS he promising you really? I don't see it.
You could say "No thanks" to any rings. If you choose to keep on dating him? Tell him you expect condoms on with YOU. Do whatever burning man things with his other GF and whatever sex practices they do together.
But with YOU? It is like THIS. Because you make the decisions about how you share your body. If he wants to show commitment to you? He can respect your safer sex practices and use birth control/barrier methods and whatever else you use. If he cannot do that? Stop sharing sex with him.
Because it IS your body. You can decide to use protection how YOU want. Throwing you presents doesn't mean he gets to go bareback with you and whoever else all willy nilly. If the other lady agrees and is cool with that -- that's her look out.
You don't have to be. Your health is your job. You can have your OWN preferences and they do not have to be like hers.
I can make a list for what traits I want in a partner (honest, trustworthy, doesn't lie, holds down a job, responsible, etc) and what I don't want (alcoholic, druggies, deadbeat dad, cannot hold down a job, moochy person, etc.)
And I'm still not predetermining what the relationship will look like.
We could end up only friends, FWB, BF/GF, something more committed, etc. It could be an Open V, a Closed V, a quad... whatever it is.
I am willing to let that unfold how it will.
I am NOT willing to take up with wonky or obviously incompatible people though. Why waste my time? Or open myself to avoidable hearth ache?
To me? There is freedom FROM things and freedom TO do things.
I do not see me having personal standards for who I will and will not hang around with as "limiting." I see it as freeing me FROM having to deal with too many wackies.
I am still free TO let my relationships unfold as they will.
Galagirl
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Relationship requirements
Okay, yesterday I saw a poly-friendly therapist and she advised the same, Galagirl. So last night I spent hours drafting a list of relationship requirements. I'm feeling pretty good about them - they are mostly about openness and honesty, and a couple about fluid bonding and timing. My current plan is to tell him I have some feedback for him, ask when he wants to hear it, and then allow him the opportunity to decide whether my requirements are acceptable or not, and to see if they fit in with his requirements. Then, if he says he accepts them, I will try to see if he is able to actually fulfill them.
I wish that I had time to see my counselor again before he gets back, so she could read them, but I guess I will just have to have faith in myself that they are reasonable, and face the consequence of him not accepting them. I would post them here but the document is so long and I guess I don't want any of you trying to weigh in either. They are MY requirements, and if they're unreasonable I guess I have to live with that. I tried to think of the requirements he has that I am aware of, and I honestly think that I can live by them.
There is only one that I do not know how to approach. He says he does not want to be hierarchical, and I understand this in the sense that I don't believe one person's feelings necessarily should be the default deciding factor. However, how does this non-hierarchy work when there are children involved? If I became pregnant, for example, my needs and the child's needs would be intricately intertwined. Is it wrong to think that the child's needs should come before another partner's?
Those of you who are non-hierarchical, do you have children? Are you living in triads or quads where everyone is dedicated to raising the children? If that is the case, it is significantly different from my situation, because even though he says he doesn't want hierarchy, he isn't anywhere close to having balanced relationships with his other partners. It seems much more like he wants to be paired with me, but he doesn't want me to weigh in on his "adventure sex" or friends with benefits. He doesn't want to "ask permission," which is presenting itself as him not even telling me.
I am so anxious for him to come home and for this to be resolved. I have two dates lined up for this week - one with someone already in a relationship and another with a single monogamous. I have made plans for a weekend he said he "might" want me to accompany him. I feel like I have taken steps to distance myself from him, but I am afraid that I won't be able to maintain it when he gets here. I am half expecting him to have completely forgotten me when he gets back. I am wondering, too, if he did actually end up using condoms. I'm surprised by how significant this has been for me. I think if he hadn't left me the ring, I wouldn't feel so invalidated.
I was thinking, too, of having him read this thread so that he can see that there are others supporting my feelings. Is that a bad idea? Thanks all.
Ruby
Okay, yesterday I saw a poly-friendly therapist and she advised the same, Galagirl. So last night I spent hours drafting a list of relationship requirements. I'm feeling pretty good about them - they are mostly about openness and honesty, and a couple about fluid bonding and timing. My current plan is to tell him I have some feedback for him, ask when he wants to hear it, and then allow him the opportunity to decide whether my requirements are acceptable or not, and to see if they fit in with his requirements. Then, if he says he accepts them, I will try to see if he is able to actually fulfill them.
I wish that I had time to see my counselor again before he gets back, so she could read them, but I guess I will just have to have faith in myself that they are reasonable, and face the consequence of him not accepting them. I would post them here but the document is so long and I guess I don't want any of you trying to weigh in either. They are MY requirements, and if they're unreasonable I guess I have to live with that. I tried to think of the requirements he has that I am aware of, and I honestly think that I can live by them.
There is only one that I do not know how to approach. He says he does not want to be hierarchical, and I understand this in the sense that I don't believe one person's feelings necessarily should be the default deciding factor. However, how does this non-hierarchy work when there are children involved? If I became pregnant, for example, my needs and the child's needs would be intricately intertwined. Is it wrong to think that the child's needs should come before another partner's?
Those of you who are non-hierarchical, do you have children? Are you living in triads or quads where everyone is dedicated to raising the children? If that is the case, it is significantly different from my situation, because even though he says he doesn't want hierarchy, he isn't anywhere close to having balanced relationships with his other partners. It seems much more like he wants to be paired with me, but he doesn't want me to weigh in on his "adventure sex" or friends with benefits. He doesn't want to "ask permission," which is presenting itself as him not even telling me.
I am so anxious for him to come home and for this to be resolved. I have two dates lined up for this week - one with someone already in a relationship and another with a single monogamous. I have made plans for a weekend he said he "might" want me to accompany him. I feel like I have taken steps to distance myself from him, but I am afraid that I won't be able to maintain it when he gets here. I am half expecting him to have completely forgotten me when he gets back. I am wondering, too, if he did actually end up using condoms. I'm surprised by how significant this has been for me. I think if he hadn't left me the ring, I wouldn't feel so invalidated.
I was thinking, too, of having him read this thread so that he can see that there are others supporting my feelings. Is that a bad idea? Thanks all.
Ruby
Ravenscroft
Banned
I'm with Galagirl: leaving out fine details, mine wouldn't be very long --
- no destructive craziness
- no lying
- repeated "forgetting" is lying
- repeated "accidents" is lying
- one set of rules, equally applied
Cart before horse (like, a couple of furlongs). You focus on "hierarchy" yet you rather clearly say "he's obviously incapable of giving me the confidence I need when
rolleyes we have children together." If you feel the need to keep him in line, then you might simply threaten his life; beating him bloody a couple of times, then buying a handgun, would be a great way to sell this.
Aside from that, I'd say that either he voluntarily gets his shit together, OR you accept that he is NOT going to get his shit together, & move along, rather than willingly set yourself up for further cheap melodrama.And tell your therapist that you would like to ensure that there's not some deep-seated self-destructive tendency in you that will lead to to find more "partners" like him & leap right into trying to FIX them, rather than learning to look for healthy relationships from the outset.
To me that isn't "heirarchy" or "no heirarchy" in the polyshipping.
That is
- "I want to do whatever I want when I want, without you saying boo."
- "I don't want to have to consider how my actions could affect you."
- If I see my behavior might ding you? I don't want to exercise self control and modify my behavior so it doesn't ding you.
- "Because I want to do whatever I want, without you saying boo."
Lather, rinse, repeat.
And if you try to point that out, he might try to dissemble so the spotlight is off him and his behaviors. And on you because you are being X.
"Too sensitive, too unreasonable, too rigid" or whatever flavor of the day he picks.
I don't have a lot of boundaries, but one of them is "I don't deal in slippery fish/avoid-y dance people."
Who want to play flipperoo and get the spotlight off themselves so they cannot be pinned down and held accountable. Allergic to taking personal responsibility for their actions.
Like a kid with a hand in the cookie jar. Kid pretends his hand isn't in there. I'm supposed to pretend I don't see him doing it? What kind of business is that?
If this is what you want? Even if he's back in town? You could tell him you cannot see him until X. YOU give yourself the chance to see your counselor first before seeing him. His being in or out of town should not matter.
Because YOU make your calendar be what it is.
Galagirl
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