The Best Life Yet

[Reverie]

This weekend has been interesting, another mixed bag. I'm typing this from a restaurant's bar, while waiting for a meal I'm treating myself to: vegetarian ravioli and a cheese plate. Rider is still at the festival.

So Friday evening, Rider picked me up, and my royalty check had arrived, and it was about double what I expected it to be, so I treated him to Mexican happy hour. Then we went home and packed for our weekend and lazed about a bit, waiting for traffic to die down so we could drive the hour-ish to our destination. the idea was that we'd meet his fan-club friends out at a bar when we got there. (The fan club band was headlining the festival the next day.)

We got about five minutes from the hotel, and Rider realized that—oh, snap!—he'd forgotten our tickets! He had to drive all the way back home! What a bummer! I was determined to not have both of us squander our time over his mistake, so I posted up in the hotel room with my laptop and a glass of wine to do some work. I got a fair bit done in the time he was gone, which was nice.

When he got back, we coordinated with the fan-club friends and met up at a dive bar. The minute I walked into that place, my mood shifted, like the black cloud of PMS decided to be my evening attire. Maaaaan, I felt like a grumpy-McGrumperson or something, but it was altogether too loud in there, the was music not to my taste, and so many of the patrons just seemed SO young and SO clueless. I was trying not be judgy, but I was totally being judgy anyway. But I smiled and nodded and tried not to let on.

I love Rider, and I do not begrudge him his extravert friendship-making times, but I was just super aware that I would have had a better time had I stayed in the hotel alone. Finally last call came. I was hungry, so I let myself be talked into a diner excursion with the crew. This proved to be a mistake. I ordered fish and chips, and the fish was panko-breaded instead of beer-battered, and just really heavily oily. Rider and I split it, and we both had terrible stomachaches afterward.

We called a Lyft, and our driver was . . . impaired . . . somehow. He didn't smell drunk. But he drove us miles out of our way, and the car kept wobbling, and at one point he almost drove us up onto the median. Thankfully, we at least survived that debacle.

We got back to the hotel room. I hadn't heard from Dustin all night—a rarity—and I was starting to become a little worried, but I was not really mentioning it to Rider. Rider and I agreed we were both too sick to our stomachs to feel sexy. We crawled into bed, vowing to do better tomorrow.. But just as I was reaching to turn out the light, my phone rang. Not the text sound, but an actual ring, Dustin's ring. (He's on my "can ring through silence" list just like Rider and Oona are.) Of course, I took it. And it turned out not to be anything wrong. Dustin was just drunk and his phone had been dead and he wanted to chat for a minute.

So, still in bed, as I was in a hotel room with not much of anywhere to retreat to, and I was too naked to step outside, I did a short, cursory conversation with him, with more attempts and exiting the conversation than were successful, due to his drunkenness. Once off the phone, exhausted, I said goodnight to Rider and snapped off the light. I'm pretty sure I was asleep before my head hit the pillow, backed up by later discovering that Dustin had sent me follow-up texts that I didn't see till waking hours later.

Rider and I woke up around noon. We'd spied a cider bar that boasted a weekend brunch on our way back to the hotel the previous night, so we wanted to go check it out. The food was fantastic, and we were having a really great time. Once we finished eating, Rider told me he'd been unhappy with my handling of Dustin's calling late-night. He said that even though I was on the phone for only a few minutes, and my conversation was light-hearted and cursory, and he could hear me trying to extricate myself, it spun him up hearing one side of it, and it had taken him like an hour to get to sleep.

That hadn't even occurred to me. I'd just thought that since I'd been worrying a bit and was too naked to go outside and was inches from sleep, I'd just make quick work of it and be done. He's requested that, in the future, if something similar happens, I excuse myself to the hotel room bathroom to talk. I can do that.

He also said that "while we're processing," he should let me know that he was chagrined when I'd mentioned in passing that Dustin had driven our car Monday night. Hm, OK. He said he'd appreciate it if I informed him in advance if that were going to happen. I can also do that. But it hadn't occurred to me that it'd be an issue. I'd been celebrating my birthday, and Dustin had stayed within legal alcohol limits to help me with that, and he'd suggested a place that was over an hour's drive away, and, since it was a surprise, had offered to drive so that I could relax. And since my car has a decent stereo and AC and his doesn't, it made sense to me to take mine. I'm never weird about other people driving my vehicle, as long as they are licensed and insured and not drunk. But now that I share a vehicle with Rider, I have to take his viewpoint on the subject into account. Today, I learned!

There are definitely some areas where I'm more hippie-sharey and laid back than Rider is. I cannot count the number of friends' cars I've driven, and vice versa, over the years.

But we worked through the processing and had a good time. And then he went off to meet his friends at the same bar, while I bowed out and went back to the hotel room to do more work. I chatted for a while with Dustin's bestie, who had been posting cute pics of him online. And I had this sudden idea of how neat it might be to become an herbalist. (More on that later, maybe in a separate post.)

Then Rider came back to the hotel room and took showers and had fun sexytimes. I had Rider kneel above me while I sucked and jerked him into my mouth. Looking at him towering above me was so hot. I have trouble these days with him inside of me since he's so big, but handling something so big and straight and pink and well-formed is definitely still sometimes a turn-on in its own regard.

After a brief cuddle, we were ready to go to the festival. IT WAS AMAZING! We saw Rider's favorite band, and two other bands that I love-love-love. We laughed, we cried, we danced our asses off. It was such a happy bonding experience with Rider.

After that, we were hungry and went to a different diner. The food there sucked, too. Oh, well. I guess this is just not a diner town.

And then the fan-club friends were trying to get us to come out again, but Rider was bushed and I was feeling anti-social, so we fell asleep relatively early to old Star Trek episodes.

I woke up for some reason in the middle of the night, like 4am. I saw some missed texts from Dustin and replied. I did a bunch of research into the herbalism thing and had some misgivings about being able to do that without accidentally bullshitting people. I fell back asleep and had weird zombiepocalypse-type nightmares.

Eventually, at noon, I awakened again. Rider told me that I'd been talking in my sleep again. He went and got breakfast, while I opted to get some shit done. Well, I tried.

I'd brought a couple of projects with me to try to DIY them. I was going to replace my iPhone's battery and my bike's busted tire. Well. I accidentally broke the phone battery AND MY FUCKING PHONE CAUGHT ON FIRE!!! In the hotel room bathroom. In a giant fireball. I tried to blow it out but it kept getting bigger so I knocked it into the sink and turned the tap on and it finally went out.

And then I had to clean up a big, scorchy mess in the bathroom, including soot flakes everywhere. Yeah, I'm a winner! Thankfully, there was nothing permanently damaged. Except, of course, my poor, dead phone. I did manage to extract the SIM card, seeming relatively unscathed, so hopefully I should be able to pretty easily make the new one I ordered seem like the old one.

The bike tire replacement went a lot better. Rider left to go join his friends at the festival. He'd told me he'd meet me at the back of the crowd during a particular performer, but when I got there, he wasn't there.

It was getting cold. The bar stands were out of wine, and I didn't feel like drinking beer or liquor. I was getting grumpy again. Finally the set ended, and I saw Rider leaving. He was apologetic about not being where he said he'd be, but I was just soooooo exhausted from literally having started a fire and then being without my phone that his deviating from our (compensating for my not having a working phone) plan was too much for me. I was nice to him, but I was done with being at the fest. There was only one more performer he wanted to see—two sets later—and I didn't really care about them.

So I found myself a fancy spot and am treating myself. For the first time in a long time, a little solo date with wine and cheese and ravioli. I deserve it. In a moment, I will go take the train to catch Dustin's regular Sunday-night honky-tonk set. I hope Rider has a good rest of his night, and I'm really, really glad we had some more-or-less uninterrupted hangout/bonding time this weekend, despite processing, fires, nightmares, and tummy troubles. I think we both needed it.

 

[Reverie]

The Vegas thing is extra scary to me, having just come from a music festival and with Dustin's band having shouted that particular festival out (without news reaching us yet) from the stage last night. I was all prepared to type up a post about my night and about an interesting gender/relationship article I'd read, but after reading the news and chatting with Rider, Dustin, and Oona about it all morning, I don't have the focus for it.

Here's the article, so I don't forget. I'll talk about my reflections on it later. Maybe tomorrow.

 

[Reverie]

No real time to post much. The short version is that Sunday night honky-tonk with Dustin was great. Monday night I split time between the boys, doing happy hour with Dustin and the rest of the evening with Rider, and that was pretty good too, though Rider and I got into some heavy-but-necessary conversations. Tuesday night with Rider was laid back and pretty good, though we spend too much of it doing vacation-planning stuff for our trip back east next month. Again, necessary shit.

Last night with Dustin was 99.9% great except for the part where I took my purse with me to the restaurant bathroom instead of asking him to watch it like I often do, and he assumed I was sneaking off to text Rider and got jealous. Actually I was checking my work email because I was waiting for something. Either way, what I do alone in the bathroom is my own damned business.

Plus, I'm just a bit frustrated that I had the same conversation last week with Rider and now here I am getting it from the other side, too. Each of these boys is so concerned that my attention is getting diverted away from them when I am with them, and the vast majority of the time it is not. For each of them, there seems to be an elephant in the room that they only get 50% of my time and attention, and it sits there at the forefront of their minds, ready to gobble up any tiny evidence that it's shifting in the other one's favor.

I don't know what to do about it, other than just keep the balance balanced as much as I can, be honest, and genuinely be focused on each when I am with them.

 

[Reverie]

Another thing that has been rattling around in my brain from last night:

There was a moment, in passing, while cuddled up in bed, when Dustin said something along the lines of (and I wish I could remember whether this was the exact wording or not): "Before I met you, I hated women."

And I balked. "Hated women? But you're so sweet! I never pegged you as a misogynist!"

And he said, "I'm not a misogynist. I mean, maybe hate is the wrong word. But I didn't like hanging out with them anymore. They were all too predictable. Too much of the same. I was bored with them. But you're not like that at all."

And it seemed to me that "hate" was an awfully strong word to thoughtlessly choose as a stand-in for "boredom."

And anyway, what was this business about women all being the same? I know he believes (has told me as much, point-blank) that men and women can never really be "just friends" with no desire on either side (which I called bullshit on), so does that mean he's just never been close enough to a woman as friends to see the incredible difference and nuance? It seems odd.

I know he loves his mother to pieces (calling her "the sweetest woman he's ever met"). He once said about his sister, "I love her, but she's kind of a bitch—but only because I taught her to be tough and stand up for herself."

But at the same time, I have seen him go out of his way to be kind and sweet and thoughtful to women he didn't have to be. Like, he has this female friend (despite his proclamations to the contrary) whose birthday party he stopped off at the other day and, knowing she doesn't drink, he researched a bakery that had macaroons, which he knows she likes, and went there to get her some to bring to the party.

I've seen him help old ladies, and he seems to have genial connections to a whole bunch of chicks in the periphery of our mutual friends' circle—everyone says he's "sweet" and seems interested in still being his friend and hanging out with him. He seems always to offer help willingly and generously and with no expectation of anything in return.

It's pretty strange, to be honest. Because I really have never met someone so thoughtful and attentive and gentlemanly to me. But he does occasionally do things (such as the above statement) that irks the feminist in me, like not taking my word (as a woman) for what point in a woman's cycle she is fertile, or writing women's moods off as "PMS related" (honestly, in my case, it's often true, so it's hard to bark back hard at that).

It's hard for me to square how those can be two facets of the same person: treating actual women like gold, but having somewhat backwards viewpoints on "women" in general. I guess I just have to wait and see how much it will chafe in the long run, and how much he can learn. Maybe no one has ever cared before or tried to teach him...

 

[Spork]

I've run up against some pretty kooky ideas in people's heads when it comes to gendered generalizations. It ain't just men, it ain't just women, it ain't just about either. People are straight silly sometimes.

I've had to learn and use thought exercises many times in my life. It's common enough to feel grumpy about something "men" do because ~A~ particular man did a thing that rubbed me wrong. I used to simply "flip the coin" and contemplate some equivalent concept that applies to women I know, now I not only do that, but I then also think of the men I've known and all the times that whatever thing did not apply...and it always brings me back to that fact that we're all only human, but we're all so different, and generalizations are kind of pointless.

But in discussions about whether men and women can be friends...

I've known men who considered themselves feminists, yet believed that a man and a woman cannot be platonic friends IF there is even a smidge of attraction on either side. Like they could acknowledge that perhaps if they're both unappealing to one another, it might work. But most of the time, not so much, because somebody is harboring some ulterior motive. They don't understand why a.) a woman such as myself would find this offensive, nor b.) the reasons I find it also limiting and stupid.

I find it offensive, because it seems they are saying that "if I wanted friends, I'd hang out with guys, I only talk to women because I want sex" thing...and that implies that women have nothing going on in our heads that is even worthwhile. We're inconvenient custodians for a collection of fun holes at best. They would prefer we were mindless dolls that never said "no" and disregard our personalities utterly. A man who thinks this, is no feminist.

(Incidentally, the man who said he was a feminist yet thought something along these lines...he wanted to be the one exception, but say that "men" think this way. That is also BS, because it's an attempt at competition along the "nice guys vs. jerks" lines, and no...dude...you are not special like you think you are, nor are all the other guys all jerks. Get over yourself.)

So then we move on to why I find the "can't be friends if there is attraction" situation to be BS. It's the difference between thoughts, feelings, actions, words. So I believe we cannot be held accountable for our feelings any more than we can be held accountable for the dreams we have when we sleep. Feelings...just happen. Thoughts, to some degree, and with effort, you can work to control. It is more difficult though, and 100% control should not be expected. A person can PARTIALLY be expected to account for their thoughts. However, some thoughts will always be none of anybody's business. Words...and actions...though...we are ALWAYS accountable for. Always. So if a man looks at me, and feels attraction, and thinks thoughts of sex, but doesn't say anything inappropriate or do anything inappropriate, but behaves to me in a respectful way for the duration of our association, I see ZERO reason why we cannot be friends. Even very good friends. Unless he struggles to manage his feelings and thoughts and they cause him distress, in which case he is under no obligation to continue in a friendship with me that hurts him. But that's HIS call to make. It is presumptuous and dumb for a woman to go around avoiding friendship with men out of assumptions of what they are thinking and feeling. No one should live like that.

I know plenty of men who appreciate a woman's personality and enjoy her company enough, that it is worth it to them to be friends with her, even if no sex, love, or romance is ever possible or ever will be. And even if, in some tiny corner of his lizard brain, he thinks naughty thoughts about her when he's alone with himself, or if he dreams a little dream now and then, that maybe one day he'll have a chance...so long as he can manage those impulses and not get bent if it never happens, and be respectful...I see no problem there. None.

Personally, (and you know how I like older men) I have had fantasies about male teachers in high school and college...which I always knew would NEVER be viable, and so I never gave even the slightest hint that they were there. I did not flirt, or hope, or really think I could ever pursue anything with those men. But I was thinking it. Saying that men and women can't be friends under the above described circumstances, is like saying I should have dropped those classes and avoided those men, because the thoughts I had should have dictated the interaction and a platonic and professional teacher/student relationship was somehow tainted or impossible because of what was in my head. That. Is. Absurd.

Sorry for going all novel-post in your blog...I just have lots of ruminations on this topic. Been over it a gajillion times.

 

[Tinwen]

And as we got in the car, he paused, and then he said, "Well, not long ago, I was thinking of taking a break. But obviously after this week, I've totally changed my mind and it's the furthest thing from my mind."

And my blood ran cold. I've heard that saying before, but I don't think I knew exactly what it meant. It felt like my heart was frozen and shooting frost into my veins, crackling down through all the capillaries.

He saw the look on my face, and he said, "I told you that. Don't you remember?" And I didn't. But I might have been drunk or something.

He said, "When I'm with you, it's the best thing in the world. But when we're not together, I wonder WTF I am even doing and why am I putting myself through this" (OK, I did remember that part) "and I was thinking of just taking a break. To see what it feels like. But don't worry, baby, I'm not anymore."

And I guess I had heard him but maybe not all of it or not realized he was serious or blocked it out or something? But it just sounded like the worst idea to me.

I just opened your blog after a long time, and there was this old post. Wtf. I'd love to talk to your partner and hear what he has to say. The bolded part is something I've experienced so many times and still struggle with. I haven't seen it mirrored much here on the forum.

I'm not sure what I want with this comment, just in case you have a thought on it.

 

[opalescent]

It's pretty strange, to be honest. Because I really have never met someone so thoughtful and attentive and gentlemanly to me. But he does occasionally do things (such as the above statement) that irks the feminist in me, like not taking my word (as a woman) for what point in a woman's cycle she is fertile, or writing women's moods off as "PMS related" (honestly, in my case, it's often true, so it's hard to bark back hard at that).

It's hard for me to square how those can be two facets of the same person: treating actual women like gold, but having somewhat backwards viewpoints on "women" in general. I guess I just have to wait and see how much it will chafe in the long run, and how much he can learn. Maybe no one has ever cared before or tried to teach him...

I've met a few men who treat women well in their lives but 1) don't really think women are people, at least not in the same way that they think of men as people or 2) put women on pedestals which still leads them to not really thinking of them as actual people. Some people think putting others on a pedestal is a sign of respect or love. It's not. It's objectification in a very non-consensual manner. Whoever is on the pedestal does not get to be a full human being with a range of emotions, thoughts and experiences. (And women put people on pedestals too. But men are encouraged and lauded for putting specifically women on pedestals in ways that women generally are not.)

Someone who experiences women as more of collections of roles and responses to him will get bored by the women slotted into those roles behaving as he expects them to, as they are taught to (and sometimes punished if they don't). Often they don't even see the depersonalization they are doing, that they are not seeing women as actual people.

Perhaps this does not apply to Dustin. One hopes so. But it's something I've encountered a fair bit. Or if it is accurate for him, perhaps he can learn otherwise.

 

[Reverie]

But in discussions about whether men and women can be friends...

I've known men who considered themselves feminists, yet believed that a man and a woman cannot be platonic friends IF there is even a smidge of attraction on either side. Like they could acknowledge that perhaps if they're both unappealing to one another, it might work. But most of the time, not so much, because somebody is harboring some ulterior motive. ...

... So if a man looks at me, and feels attraction, and thinks thoughts of sex, but doesn't say anything inappropriate or do anything inappropriate, but behaves to me in a respectful way for the duration of our association, I see ZERO reason why we cannot be friends. Even very good friends. Unless he struggles to manage his feelings and thoughts and they cause him distress, in which case he is under no obligation to continue in a friendship with me that hurts him. But that's HIS call to make.

...And even if, in some tiny corner of his lizard brain, he thinks naughty thoughts about her when he's alone with himself, or if he dreams a little dream now and then, that maybe one day he'll have a chance...so long as he can manage those impulses and not get bent if it never happens, and be respectful...I see no problem there. None.

I think, actually, that his concept of it is more like this, based on what he'd said at the time:

There are no male/female friendships where there is no attraction on either side. To pursue a friendship, at least one of the people is attracted to the other one, and would have sex with them if given a free-and-clear opportunity.

He said that he has female friends who he is not attracted to, but he's pretty sure they like him. And he's been friends with girls he's been attracted to, but they don't see him in that way—in those cases, he's been holding out that tiny little hope. He said that in cases where there is zero attraction between two straight people of opposite genders, neither of them bothers to ever make time for a friendship. It's always one is attracted and the other isn't. (Or maybe they are both attracted but honor-bound to other commitments.) He sees a connection that contains an unrequited attraction as something not quite equal to friendship, but it's still a way that two people can enjoy each other's company for various reasons.

With the macaroon girl, he's told me specifically that he doesn't find her attractive but thinks she's nice and a really good musician, and he enjoys her company for those reasons. I guess that, under his paradigm, means that he thinks she probably is attracted to him, and that's why she will be his friend? She's "settling" for friendship? I don't know—maybe he has reason to believe that. I've never met her.

I don't happen to agree with him on this topic, despite oodles of evidence from my own life in his favor. I'm pretty sure ALL my platonic male friends, even (and maybe especially) my closest ones, would have sex with me given a free-and-clear opportunity. I think most of the close ones have expressed as much at some point in our friendship. But under my definition of friendship, it's still a true friendship, even with an element of them being attracted to me.

I have, at various times in my life, actually lost what I thought were good male friends because they'd been holding on some hope of a chance and bailed when they finally realized it would never happen. It's lame. THOSE PEOPLE were never actually my friends. But the ones who stick around? I think they are.

I, myself, have conducted friendships with guys who I would have liked to have had a relationship with, but for some reason, it would never have worked out out. Or we actually did try and it didn't. I'm still friends with most of the people I've dated on this blog, for example, and am still attracted to them and want them in my lives, though I can't have sex with them anymore. I believe those are also true friendships. Otherwise we wouldn't bother.

But, friendships that include attraction aside, I believe I have seen instances of true two-way platonic friendship in other people. Just as one example, Jerry has a chick friend who is his very best friend, and for a long time (Rider tells me), everyone thought they should or would eventually date, but they just never did. I don't think he's secretly in love with her—but they do love each other a lot. And now she's married to someone else and has a really cool kid, and he's like the kid's uncle.

Maybe Dustin has never seen any of these exceptions like I have, and that's why he so ardently believes this. What do you guys think?

 

[Reverie]

He said, "When I'm with you, it's the best thing in the world. But when we're not together, I wonder WTF I am even doing and why am I putting myself through this"

I just opened your blog after a long time, and there was this old post. Wtf. I'd love to talk to your partner and hear what he has to say. The bolded part is something I've experienced so many times and still struggle with. I haven't seen it mirrored much here on the forum.

I'm not sure what I want with this comment, just in case you have a thought on it.

Yeah, I guess because this forum is a poly forum, that particular sentiment might not be echoed here much. To be completely frank, I think it is because he (while he might be capable of sexual non-exclusivity and has cheated in the past) is fundamentally romantically monogamous and would prefer monogamy with me, if given the chance to have it. (This is also the reason you won't get to talk to him—because he'd scoff at the idea of participating in a poly forum.)

He deals, because the good times are so very good, but he's not always happy about it. And, y'know, I do the best I can for him. I give him all that I am capable of giving without dicking Rider over. But I know that, from his perspective, it is still not enough.

He asked me once not long ago whether, if things ended with Rider for some unrelated reason, I would consider going monogamous with him.

I was hesitant to reply at all, mostly because I tried doing that once before (going mono with a guy after trying a poly thing) and it had gone poorly for me. But at the same time, I had been feeling pretty effing mono myself not that long ago—almost like it's something I'm becoming more suited for as I age, as long as a partner could handle my predictable drop-off in libido.

But then I realized that, if things ever got to that point with Rider for some reason, and Dustin and I were still together, that would mean that Dustin had a) proven himself a suitable enough companion for me that I kept him around that long—any red flags resolved, and b) been willing to keep me around and do things my way for long enough that I would sort of owe him at least an attempt to do things his way.

So I told him that, yes, if for some reason my marriage were to end*, I would consider closing down for him**. If having that measure of hope is enough to sustain him, I will give it to him.

He has been very good about possessing that information and not trying to use it to drive me and Rider apart, which is, of course, a possible concern in that situation. He never has a single bad thing to say about Rider, and he never tries to get me to complain or say anything bad. He's been 100% sweet and friendly and cordial to Rider when they have been in the same place at the same time. I don't think he wants to be friends—he has enough of those—but he's at least friendLY.

Most of the time, he seems pretty content just to be with me and see where things go, without pushing for a particular destination. But I do know that he has very dark moments. He's expressed to me a variety of dichotomous feelings:

He's wasting his time with me when he could be building something with someone more available.
vs.
He's never felt so connected to anyone before, and there's no guarantee he'd actually ever find it again—after all, it took him till he was 40 to even meet me.

Poly seems impossible and like a bullshit strategy to him—it means that the most anyone is ever getting his half of what is possible.
vs.
Well, he's never been faithful before, and it has destroyed previous relationships, so maybe it'll start to make sense to him if he gets the itch.

He feels utterly alone and terrible—jealous, nauseated, and sometimes on the verge of panic attacks—when he knows I'm with Rider.
vs.
He feels how real the love I have for him is, when we're actually together, and it's the best thing he's ever felt.

It's too painful and he can't take it and he'll have to abruptly pull the plug at some point, going off to lick his wounds and leave me to my (nonsensical-to-him) life.
vs.
It's worth the wait to see if things come to some kind of natural ending—either between him and me, or between me and Rider—and just see what happens and where things go.

So, though you can't talk to him directly, those are my best attempts at summarizing the things that he's told me he's felt. I'm sure there have been more, but those are the recurring ones that have come up often enough that I can remember them.

*So, up until I started having my weird (presumably biological-clock-related) doubts a couple months ago that I made the right decision about not having kids, I would have said I cannot foresee any reason that this would happen. But Rider is staunchly, staunchly anti-kid. He hates them, hates being around them, would never date (much less be married to) someone who had small kids, and he has zero idea why anyone else would feel otherwise. He has made it clear to me, in no uncertain terms, that if the day comes when I really decide that's something I need to do (or I'll regret it forever and grow resentful), he'll have to bow out of our relationship, on good terms, and just be my best friend while I go try to make that happen. He even said maybe we could eventually be together again one day, if I end up not finding the person I do that with, or after they're grown. He just wants nothing at all to do with the process or the offspring. For the moment, I'm just soul-searching and hoping that the urge passes.

**Given asterisk one, if THAT were the reason my marriage ends, obviously my closing down for Dustin would also be conditional upon whether I thought at that time that he would be a suitable partner for that purpose. Otherwise I'd just be further hampering that goal.

 

[Reverie]

I've met a few men who treat women well in their lives but 1) don't really think women are people, at least not in the same way that they think of men as people

I definitely don't think this is true of him in regards to me, as my humanity seems to be part of what he likes the most about me. I'm not sure about other women though. Definitely he has a history of, in his wild band touring days, viewing women as objects and something to "score." He seems to be over that part of it, at least.

or 2) put women on pedestals which still leads them to not really thinking of them as actual people. Some people think putting others on a pedestal is a sign of respect or love. It's not. It's objectification in a very non-consensual manner. Whoever is on the pedestal does not get to be a full human being with a range of emotions, thoughts and experiences.

I also think this bold part is not true, because he is often the one reminding me that it's OK to be angry sometimes—anger is not an emotion I am very well in touch with, but I'm learning. Often I shift what should be anger over to sadness, or tamp it down to annoyance, rather than fully feeling it.

Someone who experiences women as more of collections of roles and responses to him will get bored by the women slotted into those roles behaving as he expects them to, as they are taught to (and sometimes punished if they don't). Often they don't even see the depersonalization they are doing, that they are not seeing women as actual people.

Perhaps this does not apply to Dustin. One hopes so. But it's something I've encountered a fair bit. Or if it is accurate for him, perhaps he can learn otherwise.

I hope not. But since I'm not sure I've seen for myself what you mean, I don't know how I'd tell? Are there particular things to look out for, and particular strategies for how to handle them if I do see them? Maybe some kind of book I can read?

 

[Spork]

I think, actually, that his concept of it is more like this, based on what he'd said at the time:

There are no male/female friendships where there is no attraction on either side. To pursue a friendship, at least one of the people is attracted to the other one, and would have sex with them if given a free-and-clear opportunity.

He said that he has female friends who he is not attracted to, but he's pretty sure they like him. And he's been friends with girls he's been attracted to, but they don't see him in that way—in those cases, he's been holding out that tiny little hope. He said that in cases where there is zero attraction between two straight people of opposite genders, neither of them bothers to ever make time for a friendship. It's always one is attracted and the other isn't. (Or maybe they are both attracted but honor-bound to other commitments.) He sees a connection that contains an unrequited attraction as something not quite equal to friendship, but it's still a way that two people can enjoy each other's company for various reasons.

With the macaroon girl, he's told me specifically that he doesn't find her attractive but thinks she's nice and a really good musician, and he enjoys her company for those reasons. I guess that, under his paradigm, means that he thinks she probably is attracted to him, and that's why she will be his friend? She's "settling" for friendship? I don't know—maybe he has reason to believe that. I've never met her.

I don't happen to agree with him on this topic, despite oodles of evidence from my own life in his favor. I'm pretty sure ALL my platonic male friends, even (and maybe especially) my closest ones, would have sex with me given a free-and-clear opportunity. I think most of the close ones have expressed as much at some point in our friendship. But under my definition of friendship, it's still a true friendship, even with an element of them being attracted to me.

I have, at various times in my life, actually lost what I thought were good male friends because they'd been holding on some hope of a chance and bailed when they finally realized it would never happen. It's lame. THOSE PEOPLE were never actually my friends. But the ones who stick around? I think they are.

I, myself, have conducted friendships with guys who I would have liked to have had a relationship with, but for some reason, it would never have worked out out. Or we actually did try and it didn't. I'm still friends with most of the people I've dated on this blog, for example, and am still attracted to them and want them in my lives, though I can't have sex with them anymore. I believe those are also true friendships. Otherwise we wouldn't bother.

But, friendships that include attraction aside, I believe I have seen instances of true two-way platonic friendship in other people. Just as one example, Jerry has a chick friend who is his very best friend, and for a long time (Rider tells me), everyone thought they should or would eventually date, but they just never did. I don't think he's secretly in love with her—but they do love each other a lot. And now she's married to someone else and has a really cool kid, and he's like the kid's uncle.

Maybe Dustin has never seen any of these exceptions like I have, and that's why he so ardently believes this. What do you guys think?

I think that people do all kinds of things for all kinds of reasons, and unfortunately we are wired to look for "rules" to make sense of a world that isn't always predictable. Might as well turn to astrology for your answers, it's accurate about as often.

I've known sexy gay and lesbian people who were great dear friends despite no interest in having sex. I know a gay man and a lesbian who are in a sort of D/s play partner relationship that is strictly non-sexual. I know that true friendship is possible whether attraction is present or not, because of or despite it, and it depends so much more on the compatibilities of the minds than the plumbing.

But I'll say another thing too... I think it's part of the mindset that is more comfortable with such things as polyamory, this "why do we HAVE to behave by rules? Why can't we make our own?" thing. And then there are droves of individuals who feel threatened by a lack of understood social rules that they can assume are at least mostly true. Poly folks (and others) are over here like, "If I don't like that script, I'm gonna tear it up and write another one" and normal people (for lack of a better word, muggles) are over there like "you're delusional, this is how reality is."

Honestly? I think in the long run, it's going to be hard for you to deal with the vestigial cobwebs of all this in Dustin's head. He might have bucked the rules for fun now and then in life, but mostly he expects others to adhere to them. He expects other people to be predictable, and for things to fit into behavioral patterns he was socialized to believe in. Even when he was doing something that was "against the rules" he probably thought he could accurately predict what every other involved person's response to it would be. It's the basic difference between seeing typical social/sexual behavior in our culture as "the way some people choose to live" or "the way it is."

He may wind up being too much a "the way it is" guy for you...unless he can wrap his head around it all being a matter of choice and free will, and have real, true, honest respect for yours. I think he wants to. But I think he struggles with it.

Just my impression though.

 

[Confused]

I don’t quite understand. If one member of a friendship would be friends with someone without being attracted to them what difference would it make if the other person were attracted to them or not? That’s already an example of someone showing up for friendship without ulterior motive. Why can’t both people be doing that?

 

[Reverie]

I don’t quite understand. If one member of a friendship would be friends with someone without being attracted to them what difference would it make if the other person were attracted to them or not? That’s already an example of someone showing up for friendship without ulterior motive. Why can’t both people be doing that?

Yeah, I don't get it either.

 

[Reverie]

Poly folks (and others) are over here like, "If I don't like that script, I'm gonna tear it up and write another one" and normal people (for lack of a better word, muggles) are over there like "you're delusional, this is how reality is."

Honestly? I think in the long run, it's going to be hard for you to deal with the vestigial cobwebs of all this in Dustin's head. He might have bucked the rules for fun now and then in life, but mostly he expects others to adhere to them. He expects other people to be predictable, and for things to fit into behavioral patterns he was socialized to believe in. Even when he was doing something that was "against the rules" he probably thought he could accurately predict what every other involved person's response to it would be. It's the basic difference between seeing typical social/sexual behavior in our culture as "the way some people choose to live" or "the way it is."

He may wind up being too much a "the way it is" guy for you...unless he can wrap his head around it all being a matter of choice and free will, and have real, true, honest respect for yours. I think he wants to. But I think he struggles with it.

Just my impression though.

I think that you're more or less right about him being a "the way it is" guy. He has (what I think to be) some very strange ideas about the underlying nature of socio-political things. His brother's girlfriend told me over the weekend that he's a nihilist, and I can see that. He doesn't really believe anything is right or wrong, but he does have a very matter-of-fact acceptance of how things are, with no real desire to change anything outside of himself.

This tends to be directly at odds with my "the way things are is of great detriment to everyone except rich, straight, white, cis men, and so they MUST be changed for the good of society." Conveniently, he is everything but rich out of that description. And yet, he tells me he supports and respects my opinion and anything I want to do with it.

But he is super into the idea of changing and improving himself, and learning new things. So I'm hopeful that with enough exposure to me and my ideas, he might come around on his own. I guess we'll see.

There are three areas that I have spotted trouble with him, floating among a wide and open sea of otherwise perfection:

1) He gets combative when he drinks too much.

2) He can't wrap his head around poly.

3) He has these odd and somewhat backward socio-political ideas.

Ironically, #1 may end up working out for us, as it may provide both of us the impetus we might need to quit or at least severely cut down together. Goodness knows I've previously detailed some of my own struggles with alcohol in this blog, and I'm certainly back to bad old habits again. I think I'm less stupid about it than I used to be, but I still drink beyond what is healthy for my body. It's always easier to quit or moderate when I have a buddy. And Rider will never be that buddy. He prides himself on being "Dr. Party" and walking right up to the edge—it's hard for him to see that it's harder for me to have restraint past a certain point than it is for him. He has an off button that can kick in at any point. I do not, past a certain number of drinks. And neither does Dustin.

But #2 . . . I don't know if Dustin will ever fully square with poly.

And #3 . . . I don't know that I will ever fully square with some of his unease-causing opinions.

Our relationship so far has been an exercise in loving, loving, loving, and then occasionally being upset about #1 or trying to figure out WTactualF with #2 and #3.

The thing is, though, there is something about him that is actually totally not "typical non-feminist dude," which comes back to that article I linked here a few posts back.

See, Dustin is the only man I have ever been involved with who gets it with the emotional labor stuff. It goes unspoken, and I don't think he'd ever call it that, or maybe not even be able to identify that it is a thing, but he gets it.

He gets that it is important to have a relatively clean house, and he cleans it on his own—even cleaning up after his brother. He intuits things that I might want or need, and when I might want or need them, and why. Despite his preferring to be a spur-of-the-moment guy, he knows when it is indeed important to plan things (hotel rooms, tickets, etc.) and steps up to take care of it himself. He is super fucking sharp and notices shit—an item out of place, a thoughtful look on my face, my forgetting something I said I wanted to do—and he'll put the thing away, or ask me about my thoughts, or remind me of the thing. And he'll do it without calling attention to it (if it's not a communication thing) and without expecting a production or even a thank you.

In fact, he's asked me to stop thanking him for doing certain things, saying "it's not like those are favors—it's just how it should be." And he asks me to tell him when he has angered me, wanting to learn and understand me, rather than trying to placate or appease me like most guys. He'll apologize over and over, but he won't try to talk me out of feeling the way that I do.

To me, all of that is nothing short of miraculous, given my previous relationship experiences. I'm used to partners being well intended but kind of oblivious about that stuff. So it's a bit of cognitive dissonance for me to hear less-than-feminist language coming from the mouth of the first guy I've ever known who does not expect me to do far more than my share of the emotional labor.

I've explained to Oona that sometimes being around him feels like it felt when I visited Central America during a summer in grad school, trying to learn Spanish. I'd spend all day speaking Spanish, and then I'd be mentally exhausted, and I'd retire to the tent or the hostel with my travel companion, and it was so refreshing just to speak only English for a stretch. Handing over some of the emotional labor feels like putting down a mental burden that I didn't even know I was carrying. I can trust him with it, and he delivers.

It's almost like . . . whatever differences there may be between us, I'd pay that price of admission just to keep being able to feel that relief. But we'll see.

 

[Reverie]

This past weekend, which included a road trip, was truly something else. It was amazing most of the time, but there were definitely a few weird moments.

For my story to make sense, I'm going to have to name some of the people in it, I guess. Otherwise it'll be too confusing.

Dustin's brother/roommate = Derek
Derek's girlfriend = Eve
Dustin's bestie = Pete
Pete's long-ago ex = Nancy (the crazy therapist chick)
Dustin's drinking buddy = Percy

It started when Dustin picked me up from work. I'd eaten a lower-protein lunch than usual, thanks to my boss springing for lunch from a place that didn't have good veggie options. I thought I'd be OK, but my blood sugar was cratering by the time 5:00 rolled around, and I was shaking, weak, and listless. Dustin saved my life by taking me to get some food. He'd never seen me like that before. It happens every once in a while. He seemed happy to be able to help me and nurse me back to health.

Once the food kicked in, I was back to normal, and we could be our regular fiery-sexual selves. We were making out fiercely at all the red lights on our way home. We were supposed to be meeting Eve for roadtrip grocery shopping at the house, but we got there early and ended up fooling around in the kitchen. We got super worked up while still basically dressed, and when we heard her key in the door, we raced to the bedroom. Dustin had put some honey on his fingers, and smeared it on my parts (outside only, I warned him!) and proceeded to give me some of the most heavenly oral I've ever had. It took barely any time at all, so we emerged to go shopping in a matter of minutes.

After shopping and food prep for the cooler, we had to hurry and pack up to go to Dustin's show. He was playing at a bar that Constance talks about all the time, in the band fronted by Pete. (There are several bands he plays in, but this is the longest running.) I was a little excited to go, just because I'd never been to that bar before. When we got there, I immediately recognized some friends of Perry's who I've started to get closer to recently, so I was happy to not be among all strangers.

After setting up, Dustin and I walked outside, where we ran into his neighbor and drinking buddy Percy. Percy's a really good-looking dude, but somewhat of an odd duck. Dustin shows me his texts sometimes, and they often devolve into homo-bromantic nonsense throughout the night, as Percy gets drunker and Dustin doesn't take the bait to go out drinking with him. Dustin swears that Percy is straight, but I am not so sure. This night, however, he was with a girl. She seemed sweet and nice. After we chatted with them for a bit, it was time for them to play.

Just as they were starting up, I spied Nancy coming through the door. I waved hey to her, and we walked over to the bar to order drinks together. I offered for her to sit at my table, but she said she'd rather stand. After a while, I was dancing a bit with her and the friends I knew. I was having a pretty good time. The set ended, and Nancy threw her arms around Dustin in a big hug. He bummed a smoke off of her, and we all headed outside.

While I chatted with my friends, Dustin was sitting on a bench smoking. Nancy was standing in front of him, and I saw her over time keep inching closer and closer in until she was literally standing between his knees. I heaved a great internal eyeroll. She just loves to flirt shamelessly with him in front of me. It wasn't that way at the very beginning when I first met her, but for the past few times, she is very clearly trying to assert some kind of territoriality over him. I generally just let it roll off my back, though, even though I think it's super rude.

It was time for the second set. Shortly after the set began, while they were playing, Nancy ran up to Dustin and kissed him right on the mouth, then scurried back into the crowd. He looked slightly shocked but kept playing. OH, HELL NO.

When she got back into the crowd, I shot her a look, and she came over and tried to be all overly nice to me. I grabbed her by her wrist and dragged her outside. I told her I don’t like when she does shit like that. It makes me feel jealous and uncomfortable, and I think it’s rude. I know I shouldn't let her stupid drama get to me, but I really just had to finally say something to her face.

And she was (in a SUPER condescending voice and with overly dramatic puppy face) like "Ohhhh, I’m sorry, that makes you feel bad? I didn’t know." :: pouts :: "That’s just always been what we do. Nothing has ever HAPPENED between us. And I only see him at these things. I don’t really get to see him much."

And I was like, "Listen, I’m not going to tell you what to do. I’m going to tell you how it makes me feel, which is shitty, and you do you."

And then she was like (still super overly syrupy), "Well, from what I understand, you guys have your own OTHER issues with jealousy because of your whole . . . " and trailed off kind of waving her hand around, obviously referring to my relationship style.

And I was like, "Listen, THIS has nothing to do with THAT. And now I’ve told you, and I don’t need to talk about it anymore. Let's just go back inside."

And we walked back inside. And when Dustin finished his set, I told him, and he said that it had made him really uncomfortable too but he was playing and couldn’t exactly do anything but roll with it at the time. He also said it was good that I spoke up for myself.

And then a little while later, he came to me and said "She just pulled me aside and said, 'Can you BELIEVE she said THIS to me???' like she thought she’d be the first one telling him—like I had not, of course, been totally upfront with him about it.

The rest of the evening passed uneventfully. I mostly steered clear of her. Then it was 2 a.m., and the show ended. I helped Dustin wind cords, count the tip jar, and carry gear out to the car. As we started to pull away, Nancy approached the car, asking something. I didn't hear what it was—maybe a ride down the street back to her car, or who knows. Dustin just shook his head and drove away. I'm not sure whether he heard her or not.

We were starving when we got back home. I quickly threw together a vegetarian meatball sub (which Dustin said was better than an actual meatball sub, yay!) and we went to bed. There was some sleepy, drunk sex. We stayed up way too late. The alarm was set to go off at 6:00, so it was going to be less than 2 hours of sleep for us.

Eve cooked us breakfast. We managed somehow to be on the road by 7:00 for the 4.5-hour drive. Dustin had brought a small flask of whiskey. He'd also brought pillows for us in the backseat, so we traded naps. We're each small enough to sleep curled up in the back of a Honda Fit with a head in the other's lap, taking turns who is sitting and who is curling. We couldn't check into the hotel till 4:00, so we went to the reservoir where we'd heard there was good fishing.

We didn't have any luck with the fish. Derek and Eve were squabbling because Derek was being stubborn about something, so they spent a lot of time walking ahead. We were the only humans in sight, and you could hear an echo across the water whenever we spoke. A bald eagle flew by. A heron screeched. From the ridge, we saw the biggest fish I'd ever seen in a lake. Dustin got covered in sticker thorns, including his palms, while hastily scrambling down a hill to the water to try to get to them.

"Don't die for a fish!" I called.

Eventually, Derek and Eve turned around and came back to us. The good spots were too far. We walked back to the car and had a late lunch, which included the best sangria I've ever made. I'd made enough for three, but Eve said she wasn't drinking this week, so Dustin and I shrugged and kept it to ourselves. (Derek is sober, always.) Derek and Eve were still tense, but Dustin and I were feeling super lovey. It was finally about time to check into the hotel.

After checking in, Dustin and I wanted to grab a quick martini before we headed out to a new fishing spot. We told them we'd be at the bowling alley next door. There, a couple of fellow fishermen struck up a conversation with me. They were asking why we were in town, and then started telling Dustin about the good spots to go. They asked where we were coming from, and we told them.

"Oh, we used to live there," said one of them. "Till it turned into illegals everywhere you look. That's why there's so much traffic now."

I stared at them, incredulous. But I kept my mouth shut. We were due to meet Eve and Derek in less than 10 minutes, and it was neither the time nor the place for a debate. Derek showed up to fetch us, and we got into the car. Dustin and I immediately exploded with the story of what shitty people those guys were. Eve and Derek wanted to know why we were even talking to them. Eve, who is black, was already feeling uneasy at the ubiquitous small-town racism vibe she was getting from everyone she encountered, and this story did not make her feel better.

The conversation turned to racism in general, and politics, and jack-asses, and xenophobia, and oppression. Eve, Derek, and I were clearly on one side. Dustin was on the other. Dustin himself is not racist—he's mostly dated non-white women, has a ton of friends of all colors, and truly believes that people ARE equal, even if they are not treated as such. But he also believes that people are all entitled to their opinions, even if those opinions include racism. He said he believes that there is no such thing as true right or wrong, and there's no "god" to decree that I am any more right than those guys in the bowling alley.

(continued . . . )

 

[Reverie]

( . . . continued from previous)

I took grave exception to this, and (also kinda drunk) spent basically the better part of the next five hours, on and off, even after Eve and Derek had long since given up, trying to make him take at least that part back. At one point, when the boys were off fishing, and I was apologizing to Eve for continuing to argue, she said, "Dustin's just a nihilist. Sometimes it's better not to waste your breath."

And I sighed and said, "But he loves me so much, and sometimes love helps people learn."

She peered at me, curiously, and said, "I guess it's just about the only thing that does."

There were interludes of fishing, wading, loving, showering, and half-heartedly eating a meal. But the argument got darker and darker. After a while, I wondered if it was me who was keeping it going, my being the one with a strong political opinion, so, exhausted, I withdrew a bit and tried to change the subject.

But it was rather too late. Dustin was drunk enough that he'd seized onto the combative mood, and anything was fair game. Anything I decided to say, he picked up the opposite side. It was like his official position now was devil's advocate. We were supposed to get in the hot tub, but we didn't make it down there till a few minutes after it closed. He blamed me for "talking politics," but I'd already determined it was no longer my moral outrage driving the bus.

The weirdest thing about this whole ongoing argument is that we were both frustrated and angered by it, but neither of us was hostile. Even as we were arguing and sighing and puffing, we were cuddling or washing each other in the shower or applying lotion to each other. We were somehow passionately fighting and passionately loving at the same time. I kind of don't know what to make of that. It was like . . . we were sparring ideologically, but there constantly seemed the distinct possibility that any moment, we'd redirect that focus and have sex instead. We didn't. But it seemed possible.

That is the first time that has ever happened to me.

Sunday morning, Dustin was super apologetic. He remembered arguing for a long time, but he didn't remember most of what he said. He looked guilty and ashamed when I told him that sometimes the conversation seemed to be sliding into the general area of personal insult. He never said anything really bad, but he did do a bit of discounting my opinion based on my being younger than him, and general denouncement of things he knew I cared about as idiocy.

He apologized about 700 times, and I told him I wasn't mad. And I wasn't. I was more mystified than angry. I wasn't sure how a family road-trip that was supposed to end with romantic hot-tubbing and hotel sex had instead turned into a 5-hour grind through everything either of us thinks is wrong with society, our situation, and each other. But it almost just felt like we understood each other better, for better or worse, even though we had seen more of each other's dark sides and didn't agree.

He also apologized to Eve and Derek for being an asshole. They laughed and shrugged it off. They're used to it. Derek's been Dustin's brother for 39 years and his roommate for the past 9 or 10, and Eve's been with Derek for . . . I'm not sure how long. A couple of years, at least, I've gathered.

We pulled up to a new fishing spot. It was still early morning and super cold up in the mountains. I put on 6 layers on top and managed to stay toasty. I shot some cute photos of Dustin and company. Dustin and I were drinking sangria out of our coffee cup, once we finished our coffee. We came up from the creek to refill our cup at the car, and we were suddenly very surprised by what we saw.

It was Percy, rolling down his car window and saying, "Wow, hey guys! I found you!"

Dustin and I looked at each other like, "What the fuck?"

Dustin had told Percy on Friday night that we were going on a fishing trip, and had told him where. He hadn't invited him or anything—had just told him about it.

Percy had taken it upon himself to drive the almost-five hours after work Saturday, arriving around midnight (after we were already asleep). Dustin had had a bunch of missed calls from him right around then, but he'd left his phone in the car and not looked at it till after we were up the mountain and out of cell service. Percy had brought a bunch of camping gear and gone to sleep in his car. He'd stopped where we were parked because he recognized Eve's car.

"I'm just gonna set up my camp stove and make some coffee right here!" he said.

"Uh, OK, we're gonna take a walk. We'll be back," said Dustin. He grabbed my hand and pulled me into the woods. He was a little freaked out by Percy's surprise. As were Eve and Derek when we told them.

"STALKER!" Eve exclaimed.

"I am pretty sure he's in love with you," I said.

But in the end, we decided to just see what happened. And it was relatively uneventful. Percy, fifth wheel though he was, was content to fish and drink coffee and then beer, following us, caravan-style, from fishing spot to fishing spot. Odd. Harmless? I guess? But odd.

The rest of the day was mostly fun. We fished, snacked, and chatted. Dustin dove into the freezing cold water at one point. Eve got a bit of altitude sickness. I smashed my knee on a pipe (clumsy girl strikes again). Dustin smashed his head on an I-beam under a bridge (well, at least I'm not the only clumsy one). Percy wandered off to cook himself a camp meal. Derek is the fish whisperer, and caught like 6 or 7 fish, including one with his bare hands! Then it was nearly time to drive back.

Eve and I wanted real food, so we convinced the boys to go to a restaurant. The food was really tasty. Derek was a little surly because he'd wanted a different restaurant than the other three of us.

It's a little funny to me, rediscovering a casual family dynamic in adulthood. I have lived at a serious distance from my entire family since I was 17—more than half my life at this point. I had totally forgotten how factions form and shift. How petty annoyances arise and resolve. How you have to just roll with the punches and not hold grudges and be willing to laugh a few minutes after you were just bitching.

At various points during the trip, there were factions of . . .

Me + Dustin against Eve + Derek
Me + Eve + Derek against Dustin
Me + Eve + Dustin against Derek
Me + Eve against Dustin + Derek
Dustin + Derek against Eve (I was sleeping and heard about it later)
Me + Dustin + Derek + Eve against Percy

There was even Dustin + Derek + Eve against me, laughing at me for sleeping almost the entire car ride back and hogging the backseat from Dustin. I heard about that one later too.

But there was never long-lasting irritation or bad blood. It totally reminded me of being in a pack of siblings as a kid and . . . I realize I've missed it. It was a good experience for me.

When we got back into town, Dustin and I had just enough time for a shower and a quickie before he had to go play his honky-tonk show. He dropped me off, and I stayed up way too late re-bonding with Rider. Luckily, I'd slept for like three hours in the car, so I wasn't putting myself at sleep deficit.

So that is the story of last weekend. My next post, if I can get around to it sometime soon, will be of the past few days.

 

[Spork]

Huh. Wow, there's a lot of interesting stuff there.

I think I'm somewhere between you and Dustin where it comes to right, wrong, people, opinions... Like I think that there's no objective TRUTH and no hard right and wrong beyond trying not to harm others or infringe on their whole pursuit of happiness gig right? If we keep that Golden/Silver Rule stuff upmost in our brainmeat, we can try and be decent Earth citizens to each other. But at the same time we're a whole bunch of humans walking around in our own reality bubbles, and I have little faith of swaying others closer to my own point of view deliberately. It seems the harder I've tried to get people to see things my way, the more they've dug in, and I waste time and emotion on them and it's pointless. So I try to respect their reality bubble and just insist they respect mine as much as possible.

But at the same time, my bubble as one of many is not irrelevant or meaningless, it's as valid and important as any person's. And if I believe in something, I need to "be the change" to some extent, live my values and speak my mind. We've all got the power and responsibility to help define "how it is" by being however we are, and we are free to make of that what we will. Just because many people think, say, or do things that we find objectionable, doesn't mean we need to get with the program and go with the flow because that is "how it is." After all...I'm part of how it is, I'm how I am, and if I am then others probably are, too, so... I've been called delusional and a lot of other things, but I really don't think I am, because my own odd ways WORK for me. I'm not fighting the entirety of the current here.

So, like, I'd say those people had the right to say those things, but I also have the right to judge them in my head and think that they're jackasses, and feel sorry for them because they're rejecting other people who could, potentially, be friends, allies, lovers...hate poisons the hater. I'm not going to change such a person, but I can personally reject their views in my own bubble.

I felt annoyed reading about crazy therapist chick. I get really annoyed with people who think that anyone who is engaged in unusual love/sex/relationship practices must have no boundaries and anything goes. Bitch no. It does not. That's as bad as the muggles who think that a woman with sexual experience or one who has on occasion done casual sex, would sleep with literally anyone. How anyone can be so dense...

Anyhow, thanks for sharing your adventures!

 

[Reverie]

Monday night was a Dustin night. We had plans to try out my new ice cream maker. I biked to Dustin's instead of having him pick me up. We cuddled a minute, then walked to a plaza to get stuff for ice cream, stopping at a Chinese place beforehand to eat. We split a shrimp dish and each had a beer.

Then we made ice cream—mint chocolate chip, which is both of our favorite (an early thing we bonded over). He was such a help in the kitchen, chopping the chocolate and noticing without being told that it'd be helpful if he scooped the mint out of the way as I poured the mixture into the strainer. He scooped and scooped, all the while keeping a solid, warm hand on my waist while I poured. It felt very romantic.

Then there were various steps of waiting in the process. During those, we first watched part of a Vietnam documentary with Derek and Eve, then had some mind-blowing, multi-orgasmic sex, then checked out the news about the fires burning up north, and then watched a cooking show. We split a bottle of chardonnay throughout all of this.

Around 11:00 p.m., I'd gotten a text from Rider saying he was out on a date with the girl he likes (the one that also has brightly colored hair and plays bass) and it was going well. Hmm. OK. That was the first I'd heard of that happening. Usually our policy is to keep each other apprised if a date is going to happen, before we are actually a couple hours into said date. I was not upset, but I thought it odd, and made a mental note to inquire with him later about why he deviated from our usual policy without discussing it with me.

Finally the ice cream was ready! We tested it (it was still like soft-serve) then put it in the freezer to harden and went to sleep. It was a chill, domestic evening.

Tuesday was recording time. Rider and I had a brief taco date and got a bit of grocery shopping done. Then Perry came over and I recorded my parts for two of our songs. Then Perry and Rider jammed for a while on the song they're learning for the Halloween party. After a while, Perry left, and Rider and I got to have a couple of hours of QT. We watched some Adventure Time and he gave me a foot rub. Then we had some sexytime and went to sleep. I'd forgotten to ask about the policy deviation, as it was nowhere near the forefront of my mind.

Yesterday afternoon, I finally remembered to ask Rider, over IM, what was up with the policy deviation. I was careful to explain that I wasn't upset about the actual thing—it really doesn't matter too much to me what he does with his time when we're not together—but it did seem like a bad idea to set the precedent of changing policies on the fly without consulting each other. It might be an outdated policy (indeed, that I didn't have any twinge about it suggests that it was), but even so, it's a good idea to talk about it instead of assuming.

When I brought it up, he was at first a bit defensive and giving excuses, saying he'd only done it that way because he'd found out last minute she was free and noticed her text way after she'd sent it, and was rushing out the door, so he "hopes I understand." And, sure, I understand he was rushing, but I wasn't going to let him off that hook really easily, especially after I'd told him I wasn't upset—I just wanted to know if this is going to be a policy he actually wants changed. I wanted to have a discussion about it, rather than just changing it on the fly and assuming.

We—especially I—have changed a great many things in recent months, it is true. But it was always with careful forethought, consideration, and discussion. I never once just decided that something we'd agreed upon didn't suit me anymore and just gone with it, assuming that it'd be all right.

When I explained that to him again, then he was apologetic and said that he had been pretty sure I wouldn't be upset about it (which was true), but that I was right—it was messed up to bail on our policy without discussing it first, just because he suspected I wouldn't be upset about it. He said he was fine abandoning this policy, if I was. I said I was. So we did, and that was that.

Yesterday evening, Dustin picked me up from work. We went to the store to get some stuff to make a dinner salad and stuff to marinate for later. I've gotten in the habit at both houses of marinating some tempeh and/or tofu that the boys can just grab and add to a burrito or a rice bowl or a salad when I'm not at home with them. They eat way better if I've fixed something for them that they can just grab.

I fixed our dinner while Dustin listened to the songs he was going to need to rehearse for the wedding he's playing on Sunday. Some of them were religious music, and we got a decent chuckle out of the bandmates crooning about Jesus.

Then he was off to rehearsal, giving me *GASP* three whole hours of alone time! When was the last time that had happened? Well, after a while, I wasn't completely alone. Derek came home and started watching more of the Vietnam documentary. But we didn't really interact. Aside from fixing the marinades and doing a few dishes, I spent the entire time locked away writing yesterday's post.

Dustin hurried home to me, and we ate ice cream and drank wine and chatted and made out and traded foot and calf rubs while watching nature documentaries.

Then he asked if I wanted to go to bed. "I want to make love to you," he said in my ear, and it sent a shiver of delight down my spine. I know some people think that term—"make love"—is cheesy, but I've always liked it. I'm a hopelessly romantic, cheesy kind of girl.

To be honest, it took a long time for me to get used to the terminology that Rider uses around sex. It's always "play" with him, and I've never been able to adopt that myself, though I mostly got used to that's what he uses, and accepted it. And I can never say to him that I want to fuck him, because he assumes I mean strap-on if I say it that way. To him, "fucking" always means "being the penetrative top." When I got with him as my main person, I had to basically wholly restructure my internal sexual vocabulary to accommodate his, and, even after nearly four years, it has never felt 100% natural.

The sex itself, I have no complaints about, but the terminology, and, to some degree, his reliance on routine and ritual (I had to all but beg to eventually differ from his "mostly a dark bedroom, maybe a colored light, and electronic station playing on the stereo" routine) have always been not quite right for me. Don't get me wrong, he's shown me a TON of kinky stuff I've come to enjoy as a nice variation, and I love the fact that it doesn't always have to be PIV with him. There's a lot about our sex life that is great.

But being with a new partner who seems to instinctively like all the same stuff I like—from terminology, to variety in location, to "thrill of getting busted" moments, to an almost-borderline-fetish love of fluids, to preferring to be the active partner to my preferred passive, to enjoying open-eyed kisses and meeting tongues outside of mouths—it is a real breath of fresh air. It just feels totally, 100% natural.

It took us a little while to learn each other's bodies well enough to perfect the sexual acts, but it's like our sexual minds were made for each other ahead of time—no needing to adjust or adapt or overlook anything. And I've already mentioned here how it seems like we're magically proportioned to each other to make any position work for sex or cuddling or sleeping.

(continued . . . )

 

[Reverie]

( . . . continued from previous)

My early days of sex with Rider were all about novelty and exploration and learning: Wow, it's crazy to be having sex with my best friend who I've been crushing on for months. Wow, it's crazy to be with someone with such a huge size differential, body- and genitals-wise—that leads to some intense sensations! Huh, what is this device or that device for, and why do people like it? So you feel a lot like a girl inside sometimes? That's interesting! Let's see what we can do with it! Sure, I can try to learn to tie ropes! Sure, I can learn how to do strap-on! Interesting, there are a million fun things that we can do that are hot for me mostly because they make you hot! I wonder if there are things like that for me? OK, I'll learn your terms and vocabulary. I'll watch your other partner practice whips on you. I'll find it in myself to not have a panic attack when I see needle-bruises on your chest. But, oh, the love is so good! Let's do it all together forever! I'll figure it out!

My early days of sex with Dustin so far are more like finding an effortless dancing partner that I had no idea was out there: Wow, it's crazy to be having sex with this guy that I just met out of nowhere who magnetized me instantly. OMG, yes, you like that too? We can go like that and it still works and somehow we can still stare into each other's eyes? You don't think it's gross when I . . . no, you have always liked that too? Holy shit! I never heard anyone else put it that way, but that's how I think of it in my own head! Yes, let's! Sexathons . . . well, I never really liked them before, but with you, I kind of never want to stop. Hmm, that thing sounds like the best idea I never thought of! All of this can't possibly be this good—this perfect—forever . . . can it?

So we did go to bed. And we did have amazing sex. My insides clench just thinking about it. When I woke up this morning, I wanted to do it all over again, and so did he, but there wasn't time. There's never enough time.

While I was at Dustin's last night, Rider was at a poly meetup. I was talking to him over IM this morning,and he was telling me about his night. He made some new friends and also got to see that same girl again, albeit briefly. He said he got a hug from her and she said they should hang out next week. He was very excited, typing away at a million miles a minute. He said he also told her about the concert we're going to on Wednesday, and she said maybe she could go and we could run into each other. "So maybe," he said, "I can get to see her Wednesday AND Friday—Friday's the next open day on the calendar, right?"

Hmm. Hmmmmmmm.

But, but, but . . . the concert was one we've been planning to go to TOGETHER since 2014. And we're bringing Aurora because it's her birthday and we love her. But now you're hoping to run into your new interest and make it into a thing about that?

But, but, but . . . Friday night is the only night in a two week span we were going to get to spend alone, like, actual couple time for more than just a few hours. You're thinking of planning a date with someone instead?

Suddenly my heart felt heavy. By all means, I want him to find someone—to be able to see this girl if he's into her. But during an event we've been planning for three years? But at the expense of not having our night together?

Rider and I had hung out and had a full evening on 10/5, a week ago, and it was great. We got a couple hours Sunday night when I got back from my trip. And we got a couple hours Tuesday night after Perry left. But tonight Aurora is going to arrive, and we will have her as a houseguest for a full week. Rider and I will see a lot of each other, and I will barely see Dustin at all. But it won't be one-on-one bonding time.

And then Rider has tickets to go see a band with Ayuki next Thursday night, after Aurora leaves. I couldn't go to that because I have a conference the next day, so I'll be staying with Dustin. Friday after that was a night I was looking forward to—a quiet night in with Rider. I had committed to baking a cake for Oona's birthday, but other than that, I was looking forward to relishing our guest-free house together and relaxing—maybe even having loud sex!

The rest of that weekend is jam-packed. My conference again Saturday daytime. Oona's party Saturday night. Rider's poly meetup Sunday, during which I am going to see Dustin. And then rehearsal on Monday. We have a date night planned Tuesday. 10/24. Chastity games and a romantic dinner. But, like, really? Between 10/5 and 10/24, no real evening together to just be Rider+Reverie? That can't be right!

Yes, most of it is because of Aurora, and, yes, some of it is because I'm making time for Dustin on either side of Aurora's visit, since I'm not seeing him much during it. But to give away the one night that we do have . . . I was a little shocked and (at least for a moment) quite hurt that he was considering it.

Couldn't he plan a date with her during one of the nights Aurora is here, when we couldn't get solo time anyway? Couldn't he choose the daytime Saturday while I was at the conference? Couldn't he decide not to go to the poly meetup, since he would be on a date with someone he met at a meetup, instead of canceling our time?

I told him how I felt, and he was, again, defensive at first. "If I'm seeing you a bunch of days in a row while Aurora is here, doesn't that count as QT? I'm not trying to make you upset, but I'm interested in pursuing some balance. I've been sleeping alone a lot lately."

I was befuddled that he didn't see the difference between time spent together with a guest, and time spent together alone, and I told him so. I told him I understand that he's trying to make stuff happen with this chick, and that makes sense, and it's cool. It's, I guess, understandable to want to offer her whatever night he sees open on the calendar, but it does hurt my feelings that he didn't place the same value on "first night alone in a while" that I do—like, he didn't even notice that's what it was. He wasn't even thinking about it.

I also told him that it's kind of NOT cool to invite her out to something we'd planned for years without talking to me first.

For Friday, I pointed out the other times I listed above, that he could also offer her, and he was like, "Oh. You're so much better at this stuff than I am. I didn't even think of those." And he stopped being defensive and started being happy again. He realized I'm not trying to stop him from seeing her—I was just hurt that he was being thoughtless with "our" time, when we have so little of it these days.

Y'know, I thought that my being with Dustin would give Rider plenty of room to sensibly schedule dates with whomever. But, of course, as luck would have it, he happens to start dating this chick during the busiest few weeks we have on the books.

I also thought for some reason that there would be space for Rider to do his new-girl frenzy thing that he does every time and not step on my toes, but, instead, he makes a beeline straight for the toes. Like, he honestly was just so focused on "when can I see her?" that there was suddenly zero thought in his mind about when was the last time we'd gotten a night alone, or what I might think about inviting her along to a thing without asking me. His brain goes "GIRL!" and the rest fades to nothingness. It. Always. Happens.

I really am all for him having someone. I just don't want it to mean we never, ever get any couple time together. I want at least, guaranteed, one night per week of "just us."

Rider loves to go and do things, and I like to come with him a lot, but parties and concerts with friends and band rehearsals are not quality time. I'm happy to count those as "Rider nights," as opposed to "Dustin nights," because they usually are. And it makes Rider happy to be out and about in the city doing things. But I really do think that, to continue to feel connected, having at least one actual connection night is important—even if it's short because I have a cake to bake.

After talking to him about all of this, I feel mostly OK. I do feel a little wary that he might not be able to remember and apply these principles (because he really hasn't been able to before), and that, if we do not make space for our connection then it will wither and fade.

He said it actually made him feel really good that I care enough about our QT to be willing to defend it. Well, duh!

I kind of feel like the assumptions people are making lately are so odd.

Like, the Nancy thing, she assumes that because I'm poly, that's an excuse to kiss my boyfriend in front of me (and everyone) without any kind of discussion or consent. I'm poly, not a punching bag. It doesn't make me immune to jealousy.

And now with Rider, he fails to notice that we're missing out on time together, and acts surprised that I even care. Um, I have another partner, but I'm still in a relationship with you. Having Dustin doesn't make me immune to feeling overlooked (when I'm actually overlooked) or stop me from wanting time with you.

Oh, well. I guess I'll just wait and see what Rider decides. It's still a week away. And in the meantime, I'll enjoy my time hanging with Aurora over the next week, and there will be lots of Rider time in there too.

 

[Reverie]

Adding to the stack of random hinge weirdness:

So often lately, I wake up not knowing where I am! This morning, I actually almost fell out of my bed with confusion. I woke up needing to pee, and I automatically looked at the bedroom door, where a towel to wrap myself with hangs at Dustin's place. There was no towel.

Instead of registering that that meant I was at home, my sleep-addled brain assumed I'd left the towel on the floor, and I went to reach for where I would have left it, and I misjudged the height of the bed, thinking I was in the other bed. I tumbled out of the bed, thankfully landing on my feet, and only realized I was home when my feet touched hardwood instead of carpet.

I think it does not help matters that Dustin's room is set up eerily similar to the way I've set ours up. The door, windows, and closet are in the same place. The bed and nightstands are in the same place. He has a desk under the window that perpetually has a pile of clean-but-not-put-away clothes on it, and I have a shelf in the same spot with a similar pile. (Both of us will readily do any chore except for that one, for some reason.) We even both have dark-colored blackout curtains. The only real differences are that I have a TV in my room near the closet, and he has a bookshelf across from the foot of his bed. So when I am half asleep, the rooms feel the same to me. It's very strange.

In other news, Aurora's visit is going well so far. I haven't actually spoken with her about not hooking up this trip, mostly because I feel like that would make it seem like I assumed it would happen otherwise—it seems presumptuous, which could come off especially creepy given that we paid for her plane ticket and given the age difference. She and I have only hooked up twice out of the times we've hung out, and never when it wasn't just us one on one, so I'm thinking it will probably be a non-issue. If she makes a move or asks, I'll let her know that I'm currently too saturated and not open to making things more complex right now.

Rider and I had a good heart-to-heart when I got home from work, before we cleaned the house in preparation for Aurora's visit. It felt good to just look him in the face and talk in person about some of the stuff that had necessarily fallen to IM lately, and to look into each other's eyes and reaffirm our love for each other.

Looking at him—really looking at him—I was struck by how good he looks lately. He's gotten so skinny since we've been together. When I met him, he weighed over 200 pounds, with a pudgy, rounded face and a substantial beer belly. He had terrible eating habits, being one of those people who liked to do all the disgusting "food challenges" and eat terrible meat-based novelty monstrosities, such as bacon-wrapped, deep-fried, triple-stacked whatever.

Now, more active and having been pescetarian for nearly two years, he's down to almost 170, with a younger-looking, more angular face and a more or less trim form. He usually doesn't eat too much more than I do in a sitting, despite having roughly a foot on me in height. He's discovered a love of salads. His arms are getting veinier, and he has just recently begun keeping his beard cropped more closely now that he's not using it as chin camouflage. I loved him from the start, not caring that he was somewhat outside of the body type I had gone for up until then. But he is more and more starting to resemble the pale skinny-boy "type" I had for so long.

I kind of would expect that this might re-ignite my sexual passion for him, but it really hasn't. I can appreciate his beauty aesthetically, but, as has been the case since sometime mid-last year, the sexual desire that wears off when NRE does is still worn off. I'm super happy for him that he's happier with his appearance, though. And I'm sure it'll aid him in his search for a partner. A tall, pretty, skinny boy with smarts, musical talent, and a heart of gold is a total catch. I know I feel lucky to have him.

One other thing that has happened (and I can't remember if I've mentioned it here) is that a couple that we are friends with (old friends of Rider's, actually) who live out of state have recently opened their marriage and have been coming to us for advice. First the chick came to us, wanting to make that move but wanting to pick our brains before bringing it up to her husband. And then, today, the dude came to us, asking about logistical questions. Rider usually refers these things to me, since I'm the one who has done all the reading. The guy seemed satisfied with the solutions I helped him brainstorm.

The funny thing is, when I first met the couple, I instantly developed a crush on him, but they seemed so solidly mono, and the wife seemed like the jealous type to me, so I shoved the crush down the "IGNORE THIS FOREVER" hole, never to be seen again. And now she has opened the marriage, and she is actively dating, and he's kind of still turning the idea over in his head, trying to figure out WTF about dating after so long being mono with her—over a decade—and, he says, never having had a girlfriend before her. My erstwhile crush has stayed in its hole, thankfully, but I did get a little chuckle out of the irony.

The last piece of news is that Dustin is on his way out of town for a show, at the same venue he played at when we went on that trip together in early August. I sooooo wish I could have gone, but the timing and money were all wrong. He'll be back tomorrow, but then he'll have three gigs between Saturday night, Sunday day, and Sunday night, so I'll see him only for brief drop-ins to the gigs.