So many questions

[Onthefence]

I'm so new to this and don't even know where to begin. I've been married to my husband for over 11 years; together almost 18. I feel like our relationship is pretty awesome. We are each other's best friends, have a child together, and genuinely love spending time together.
The only thing is that he's a very sexual person. He likes more kink than I'm really into. He's just not satisfied with that part of our relationship. We've been discussing an open relationship. I'm not sure if that really falls under a polyamory relationship. He's fine with me finding someone too, but really I'm not sure if that's what I want. I'm not really interested in finding someone for the two of us. This is about meeting his needs; and then ultimately my own.
I've already asked him to keep it out of our house. And I can feel the jealousy kicking in even before anything has happened. I worry that he will find someone who is everything I am...and more. (We have discussed all of these things too.)
He has cheated on me in the past; mostly in high school and not since we've been living together and married. I think that's where a lot of my insecurities and jealousy come from.
Is this even possible without damaging our marriage? Does anyone have any suggestions? I never even imagined this would be something I'd be considering. I worry I'll get comfortable with him being sexual elsewhere...and then does that make a marriage pointless if you are just friends/coparents/roommates?

 

[Noyse]

and then does that make a marriage pointless if you are just friends/coparents/roommates?

Depends on how you define marriage. Give me a cuddly friend who wants to grow old with me, and I'd be happy the rest of my life.

 

[sunray]

Just a few thoughts.

A sexually open relationship that involves only that, not the possibility of building emotional relationships with additional partners is certainly non-monogamy, but not really polyamory. Open relationship would cover it pretty well.

It is certainly possible to have an open relationship without damaging a marriage. It is possible to be poly without damaging a marriage. But whether it is possible for you and your husband, specifically, isn’t something I could guess without knowing both of you personally. The fact that he has cheated previously will probably make things much harder. If you’re a reader, you might check out Tristan Taoromino’s book Opening Up. Maybe it would provide some food for thought about your particular situation.

Last night, I was at a local poly discussion meetup in my town, and one of the things that came up in the group was the way that being in multiple relationships challenges us to clearer communication, to identifying and respecting boundaries (our own and those of others), and to a lot of honesty. I think that would apply to other forms of open relationships, too. It’s challenging stuff. It can lead to emotional growth, but it’s definitely not easy.

 

[Tinwen]

Is this even possible without damaging our marriage? Does anyone have any suggestions? I never even imagined this would be something I'd be considering. I worry I'll get comfortable with him being sexual elsewhere...and then does that make a marriage pointless if you are just friends/coparents/roommates?

Is it possible? Certainly. With caveats.

There's a common warning saying that sex brings about feeling, so it may not be possible to say "go have sex but don't fall in love" if you're tempted to do just that. But for many polyamorous people it's possible to have multiple love relationships without treating their partners badly or climbing the "relationship escalator" in each. It's very much a matter of approach, and of choosing compatible partners. But there's no guarantee that all people will stay happy in what at first seemed to fit the desired form.
Other people do manage to have sexual relationships and not fall in love. I'm not sure how they do it; I guess they have to both be "that type of person" and very happy at home. And sometimes, if they act distantly on purpose, then their other partners come here and rightly complain about feeling used.
I'm not sure what kind of attitude your husband is up to.

So these are subtle risks of the endeavor, but with a clear intent, a lot of self-knowledge, goodwill and honesty long-term happy arrangements like the one you describe do come into being.

I'm not sure if we have members here in clearly hierarchical open relationships - most people who stick around seem to subscribe more to many/equal love models. But I know at least one man in our local shibari community who has a happy marriage at home while maintaining intense kinky rope-partner type relationships. (And that's given that I don't know the relationship status of most people there.) It's true that his kinky relationships are not sexual per se. It's more like an intimate hobby, like dancing perhaps. I imagine they had to solve a situation similar to yours at home and that's the compromise, and that's the deal they came up with.

It's now up to you and your husband to lay out each other's needs and see how to best meet them and if there's common ground.

What I don't understand is: Why do you believe that him having sex with another person would make you to roommates only? Is there any obstacle to you still having great sex with him doing the activities you BOTH enjoy ... just that he also gets more of the activities HE enjoys elsewhere?

 

[PolyNatural]

I'm so new to this and don't even know where to begin. I've been married to my husband for over 11 years; together almost 18. I feel like our relationship is pretty awesome. We are each other's best friends, have a child together, and genuinely love spending time together.
The only thing is that he's a very sexual person. He likes more kink than I'm really into. He's just not satisfied with that part of our relationship. We've been discussing an open relationship. I'm not sure if that really falls under a polyamory relationship.

Everything you're describing is perfectly normal human behavior and it's becoming increasingly common for married people to bolt additional partners onto their marriage and call it polyamory in order to lessen the otherwise harsh sounding reality that it's actually adultery. This is the inherent problem in jurisdictions where marriage is defined as being monogamous in some form or another. Here in Canada it's "between two people to the exclusion of all others". Polyamory is diametrically opposite. One might say that "it's a union between any number of people, not excluding anyone who is welcomed."

Most people are never educated about poly relationships before getting married, so they eventually find themselves in the sort of situation you're in, and instead of being open to alternatives ( like you are ), they simply get a divorce and go their separate ways in a serial monogamist manner while blaming the problems on each other's indiscretions instead of the real cause, which is the way we're socialized from the time we're children.

You however are demonstrating an exceptional ability to adapt and retain the value in your existing relationship. So that is a huge plus for you no matter what happens. This is super important.

He's fine with me finding someone too, but really I'm not sure if that's what I want. I'm not really interested in finding someone for the two of us. This is about meeting his needs; and then ultimately my own.

The fact that your partner's needs are of concern seems to indicate that you would feel better if he is more satisfied, even if it means him seeing someone else. This is also a hallmark of someone who is ready for a poly relationship. In the lingo they call it compersion. I suspect your husband might be far luckier than he realizes to have someone like you as his partner.

I've already asked him to keep it out of our house. And I can feel the jealousy kicking in even before anything has happened. I worry that he will find someone who is everything I am...and more. (We have discussed all of these things too.)
He has cheated on me in the past; mostly in high school and not since we've been living together and married. I think that's where a lot of my insecurities and jealousy come from.

Jealousy can be unlearned. I never learned it in the first place so I have a pretty good idea how to get to a place where it's not a factor. But that doesn't mean it's always easy. There are feelings that are easily confused with jealousy and are perfectly legitimate. They have to do with feelings of loss and inequity, control, and unfairness. These are all separate issues and it takes some really intense communication and emotional intelligence to navigate through them. But again, just the fact that you're here and expressing yourself as clearly as you do is very positive.

BTW, while you're getting this in perspective, I think it's perfectly fair for you to ask your husband for some time to adapt before he gets actively involved, and to be perfectly open about any new partners on the playing field, and keep it at arm's length ( out of your house ), for the time being. He's lucky you're being as understanding as you are at all. Many women would have already seen a divorce lawyer and drawn up the division of assets and child custody agreements.

Is this even possible without damaging our marriage? Does anyone have any suggestions? I never even imagined this would be something I'd be considering. I worry I'll get comfortable with him being sexual elsewhere...and then does that make a marriage pointless if you are just friends/coparents/roommates?

Can this be worked without damaging your marriage? You don't have to look at it that way. Think of marriage as the certificate you get for graduating relationship high-school. Now you've got the better part of two decades of life experience in, and are learning that the world is a more complex place. You need new skills and strategies to continue growing and learning. If you can make it through this without your relationship imploding, you can graduate to a new level that is more amazing that it ever has been before, and then you can thank your marriage for helping you get there, without actually needing it anymore.

There may however be legal considerations that fall into play, and that can be complex. It might be easier to simply ignore the fact that you're married and hang onto the fringe benefits that the certificate provides than to get a divorce. It's not what I'd do, but ultimately that's your call. Personally, I had this figured out before I ever reached a stage where marriage would be an option, so I've never had to deal with the problem. However if it was me, I'd be getting together with your husband, discussing this in a mutually beneficial manner where you can get out of your marriage equitably while retaining all the existing benefits through contractual agreements.

To do that you'd probably benefit from some non-adversarial legal help. Then neither of you are being hypocritical by giving each other permission to cheat on your marriage, because that's what is happening even if you agree it's okay to engage in adultery. BTW, getting a divorce also gets rid of that nasty word. I never liked it. It's unfair and judgmental. But it's also part of and parcel of the whole marriage paradigm and is often included in legal definitions for the purpose of decision making in divorce proceedings. In other words, please don't blame me for using it. Blame them instead, and get out of their system. Otherwise you have to just accept it and live with it.

Also, because of this, personally, if it were me, I'd be saying to your husband ( and please forgive my directness here ). "If this is really what you want to do, then the only way to do it cleanly and honestly is to get a divorce with the intent of staying together as life-partners and for us to work it out from there. Otherwise keep it in your pants and honor your vows and obligations with respect to our legal marriage. You can make yourself into a hypocrite, but you're not making me into one too." If he can handle that calmly and participate positively with working out the details, then you're in a good place. If he can't, then maybe it's time to question the validity of the marriage anyway.

Again, please forgive me. I know this might be a bit too direct and seemingly harsh, but we're all adults here. No matter what you do, you also still run the risk that either of you might find new partners and split-up anyway. That's just the way life is. It's not necessarily good or bad and nobody needs to be blamed. Ultimately it's how you navigate it all that counts, and in doing so keeping it as fair as possible so as to retain as much of the positive feelings and healthy aspects of your relationship as you can. That's is what it's all about, or at least IMO it should be what it's all about.

 

[kdt26417]

Hello Onthefence,
Here's some links that might help:

Jealousy, Envy, Insecurity, etc.
Understanding jealousy
How do you achieve compersion?

Jealousy and Insecurity
The Theory of Jealousy Management
The Practice of Jealousy Management

Jealousy and the Poly Family
Kathy Labriola: "First Aid" for Jealousy
Brené Brown: the Power of Vulnerability

As for a marriage, it can mean whatever you want it to mean. You decide. As a couple. Don't worry about polyamory changing the definition.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[PolyNatural]

Hello Onthefence,

... As for a marriage, it can mean whatever you want it to mean. You decide. As a couple. Don't worry about polyamory changing the definition ...

Marriage doesn't always mean whatever you want it to mean. When its been done legally, there are legal definitions within the statutes of the jurisdiction that provide certain rights under law, and you don't just get to self-servingly change them or interpret them however you want. It's amazing to me how some people can simply ignore this reality in order to suit their own bias. I mean seriously, imagine hubby telling that to the judge during the divorce proceedings when his wife's lawyer shows Exhibit A, photos of hubby in bed with the neighbor. "Oh but your honor, marriage is whatever we want it to be." LOL. Chances are that the judge will grant wifey her divorce on grounds of adultery while thinking hubby is a total flake. Really. Let's get this in perspective.

 

[FallenAngelina]

Chances are that the judge will grant wifey her divorce on grounds of adultery while thinking hubby is a total flake. Really. Let's get this in perspective.

Let's get into perspective our understanding of divorce and the laws in the United States. Gone are the days when one injured party must cough up dirty laundry to dangle in court or prove adultery in order gain the approval of a judge. The wife in your hypothetical situation can have her divorce no matter what. Former poly lovers wouldn't enter into the legalities. Pretty much everyone who seeks a divorce can legally have it with relative ease. The tough part, by far, is not whether the divorce would be granted but the financial fallout from the separation of the household. This is all beside the point, however. Kevin was saying that while married, people can do marriage any way that works for them and he's right. We have more leeway than ever before to create marriages that are tailored to suit the couple's needs.

"When filing for divorce, you'll need to identify a legal ground (or reason) for your request. Today, all states offer some form of "no-fault divorce," and whether it's based on "irreconcilable differences," "irreparable breakdown of the marriage," or separation, the basic principle remains the same: Spouses don't need to blame one another for the breakup or prove any wrongdoing to get divorced."

 

[icesong]

Marriage doesn't always mean whatever you want it to mean. When its been done legally, there are legal definitions within the statutes of the jurisdiction that provide certain rights under law, and you don't just get to self-servingly change them or interpret them however you want. It's amazing to me how some people can simply ignore this reality in order to suit their own bias. I mean seriously, imagine hubby telling that to the judge during the divorce proceedings when his wife's lawyer shows Exhibit A, photos of hubby in bed with the neighbor. "Oh but your honor, marriage is whatever we want it to be." LOL. Chances are that the judge will grant wifey her divorce on grounds of adultery while thinking hubby is a total flake. Really. Let's get this in perspective.

That's... actually not entirely true. For instance, in NC, knowledge and encouragement of adultery is a valid defense to alienation of affection claims.

https://www.rosen.com/divorce/divorcearticles/alienation-of-affection/

I would not be surprised to see this elsewhere, in the few places that even _have_ alienation of affection laws. So by some standards? yeah, you CAN define your marriage yourself.

 

[Ravenscroft]

Chances are that the judge will grant wifey her divorce on grounds of adultery

WTF "grounds of adultery"? Increasingly, I feel that you're just making this shit up wholesale.

If he can't, then maybe it's time to question the validity of the marriage anyway.

Define that "validity" in 25 words or less.

Many women would have already seen a divorce lawyer and drawn up the division of assets and child custody agreements.

Is "many" closer to "some"/"a few" or to "most"? In any case, present statistics to support this claim.

it's becoming increasingly common for married people to bolt additional partners onto their marriage and call it polyamory in order to lessen the otherwise harsh sounding reality that it's actually adultery.

Wow, I don't even know where to begin...

 

[PolyNatural]

That's... actually not entirely true. For instance, in NC, knowledge and encouragement of adultery is a valid defense to alienation of affection claims.

https://www.rosen.com/divorce/divorcearticles/alienation-of-affection/

I would not be surprised to see this elsewhere, in the few places that even _have_ alienation of affection laws. So by some standards? yeah, you CAN define your marriage yourself.

That may be true but it's not applicable to the claim that legal marriage can be defined as whatever you want it to be, which is the context here. There are statutes and definitions and legal rights and obligations. Maybe there's some jurisdiction where it can be defined however the participants want. But I don't know of it. If anyone else does, by all mean provide the exceptions. Then poly marriages should be legal there too, along with marrying your pet goat, or whatever else you want it to be.

 

[PolyNatural]

WTF "grounds of adultery"? Increasingly, I feel that you're just making this shit up wholesale:

"In Canada, there are three grounds for a breakdown of a marriage. One, the spouses have been living separate and apart for at least one year before the divorce will be granted. Two, the spouse against whom the divorce is being sought treated the other spouse with physical or mental cruelty. "Three, the spouse against whom the divorce is being sought committed adultery."

Source: http://www.separation.ca/videos/divorce-based-on-adultery

That's only one example. I would wager a substantial amount that there are many more. Legal marriage isn't simply defined as whatever we want it to be, and neither should polyamory be defined in any equally self-serving manner. There are principles and behavior that fall outside both types of relationship, and it would do the poly community ( and everyone else ) some good to get them into perspective rather than pretend that's not the case.

 

[powerpuffgrl1969]

I just don't understand why married people can't create any sort of marriage they want? Makes no sense to me.

I'm practicing mono, but I don't have any objections to poly marriage, either.

What I REALLY don't understand is posting pronouncements on here as if that is the one and only truth. Just rubs me the wrong way.

 

[PolyNatural]

I just don't understand why married people can't create any sort of marriage they want? Makes no sense to me.

Personally, I completely agree with you. The problem is that when political and religious institutions have specific definitions of marriage, and when people get married under those rules there are only three possibilities: They agree to those rules, they're unaware of the rules, or they know about the rules and don't agree with them, but pretend to agree ( lie ) just to get their marriage certificate. So please don't blame the messenger. These are realities and they are why I've never agreed to institutionalized marriage ( official legal marriage ). I don't want any political or religious party tacking terms I don't agree with onto my relationship.

I'm practicing mono, but I don't have any objections to poly marriage, either.

Assuming there's a jurisdiction where poly marriages are recognized, I suppose it would be better than the usual mono terms and conditions. However marriage also has conceptual underpinnings that create inequity between those inside and outside the marriage. It's like saying, "Okay we in the marriage have this special thing that nobody else outside it has, but we can still treat those outside as equals anyway just by bolting them on as long as it suits our purpose, even though they don't actually have equal status or rights." It just doesn't fit the ideal ( at least not my ideal ) as well as it could.

Maybe somebody else's ideal is where equal status and rights aren't important. I don't know, but the only way poly marriages can work without an inherent inequity is to be able to add others onto the marriage as equals at will, and that would require consensus agreement. But that's not how life works. It's just creating the same problems as mono marriages, but with more participants. So why bother? Just to have a party and be the center of attention and the recipient of gifts? How completely self-centered is that? And how completely backward from finding joy in other people's happiness ( compersion ). There's a loophole to get around these conceptual problems, but it still leaves a lot of room for human frailties to get the better of people.

What I REALLY don't understand is posting pronouncements on here as if that is the one and only truth. Just rubs me the wrong way.

Sometimes hearing the truth rubs people the wrong way, especially when it contradicts something in their worldview. But at the same time, I imagine that you wouldn't appreciate being lied to. But if you think truth is whatever a person wants it to be, then you'd have no right to say they're lying. They can just claim it's "their truth" and you have no right to judge them. That's BS. The truth is how things actually are, not what we self-servingly want it to be. The real independent objective truth about the way things are matters ( or at least it should matter ), and the more things we can learn that are really true, the better informed we are. Makes sense right? So feel free to challenge people's claims and opinions ( including mine ) in a constructive way.

My attitude is that I'm trying to convey accurate information, and I'd be happy to be proven wrong at any time, That way I can learn and adapt and be a better person for it. There's no sense in getting mad at someone because what they say conflicts with my views and seems to make more sense. But people do get upset at being informed that they're mistaken, and that's what I "REALLY don't understand". I say, "Thanks for pointing that out." while they say, "Who the Hell are you to tell me what to think?" Which attitude seems more positive? Which seems more productive?

 

[Ravenscroft]

Since this has veered suddenly from the OP topic, I've taken my responses to a new thread.

(I'd erase my earlier contributions, except that leaves responses hanging & might violate the TOS.)

 

[Ravenscroft]

It's about time to start over.

Is this even possible without damaging our marriage?

Yes. It's also a LOT of work.

Nonmonogamy isn't something that can simply be tacked onto an existing relationship. The understandings & agreements that were there will need to be taken up & reexamined, line by line, & revised as necessary.

Really, now that the possibility (however tenuous) has been put out there, I'd say that the old relationship is already fading, & preserving it is going to mean extensive reevaluation.

I worry that he will find someone who is everything I am...and more.

A common fear, a common problem. Because of "new-relationship energy" (NRE), he might mistakenly believe that he HAS found something "better" simply because it's new. And if he finds happiness in addition to you, you might misinterpret this as making you less important because you're no longer 100% of his intimate side.

does that make a marriage pointless if you are just friends/coparents/roommates?

I don't know that "just" is an appropriate word. In this world, stability seems to be rarer by the moment. There's plenty of people (as always) whose sex lives have declined yet gladly remain partners.

You've indicated that you're not into his "kink" interests, & I get the impression this is making you doubt yourself. Certainly something might need to change.

But I'm not convinced that throwing yourselves into polyamory is the way to go. Polyamory is MUCH more work than nonmonogamy, & implies all sorts of deep & ongoing relational details; while stepping outside monogamy CAN lead to feelings, there's plenty of swingers who separate sex from day-to-day relating, & (to me at least) seem just as happy/unhappy as anyone else.

I know a few couples where one spouse goes off to BDSM parties & the other spends the time on their own pursuits; if there's a "social" event, they often attend as a couple, so there's no deep secrecy.

Though there are SOME PEOPLE who will go far afield to misinterpret me, I'll say that your marriage can in large part be whatever you are willing to work to make it.

There are skills necessary to happy polyamory that can help you. Start with examining why you WANT your husband to include others in his intimate life.

 

[Magdlyn]

"Bolting" someone else into your marriage, Polynatural? Now I've heard everything.

If both spouses agree to polyamory, being poly can't be used in court as "adultery." Get it in writing if necessary, but good grief. My ex husband and I agreed I'd be a stay at home parent and homeschool our kids as my "career." This was perfectly fine with the judge in our divorce, and I got a good settlement since I'd served in the marriage as "school teacher" for our kids, as well as doing almost all the home care for my husband and our family, allowing him to focus on his job, since all his food, clothing, and other needs were met by me. I had no paycheck (except for some part time work) but my contribution was worth lots of $$$ he'd have had to spend on a housekeeper, day care worker, private school, on convenience foods, etc., etc.