I Need Advice and Help

FallenAngelina said:
Still, my question to Sexyserb is why she heaps so much guilt upon herself. Sexyserb, you indeed did not get a joyful yes, but you did ask your husband's permission and you received it. I understand that he feels resentful now, but why do you in turn take up the Guilty mantel?
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Not to speak on behalf of sexysurb but just from what I've read and being in a place of understanding based on my own experience so far. She heaps guilt because there is no one else to blame, she brought it up, requested it, talked him into it, and then ran rampant. It's how she feels regardless if my summary is accurate, nothing anyone in here says will make her feel less guilty. She feels guilty for breaking some of his rules and for basically running wild for two entire years. It was open on her end only, if I recall correctly, and neither she nor Hero expected it to last as long as it did or to go as far as it did. She is beating herself up because throughout they had no communication about what was happening and she can probably now see him sitting in his hotel rooms wondering who/how many people she was at that moment screwing.
I was berated in a thread for seeming to coerce my husband into poly (still working on his condition) even though we had been just talking it out and he agreed. But in here people seem confused as to how she can take any blame on herself when he agreed. I'm assuming from her posts that she feels she made Hero feel like he had to agree for her happiness, and likely part of it for him was feeling bad for leaving her home alone so much while he travelled for business. He also likely assumed she would just hook up with a few guys and be done. It's like asking someone if you can have some of their whole pie and then you take all of it but one slice. They would be mad you might feel bad. They said you could have some so why is everyone feeling negative? Because you went too far, way past what was expected. Sorry.. pastry chef, I think in terms of food lol.
 
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Voluptuouschef said:
I was berated in a thread for seeming to coerce my husband into poly (still working on his condition) even though we had been just talking it out and he agreed. But in here people seem confused as to how she can take any blame on herself when he agreed.
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This illustrates how this forum is a community of individuals and not a hive mind of "poly should"s. There is no one approved way to proceed in poly or open relationships other than with a certain amount of disclosure. Everything else is up for discussion. Hence, this forum. I was the one who was confused and unsure why there needs to be any blame at all. Each partner is absolutely entitled to her honest feelings, now that they experiment has shown itself to be a grand flop, but assigning blame is never very helpful, in my experience. Moving forward requires that each partner take responsibly and in turn offer a bit of understanding. What I read from Sexyserb isn't a bit of self-reflection that would have changed her choices in retrospect, it's massive and debilitating GUILT. Sexyserb, you seem to be heaping monstrous portions of shame, blame and guilt upon yourself for ruining what you often describe to us as a storybook and enviable marriage. I just wonder what the fairytale image is all about (for you) and also what the shame is all about (for you.) Here's an opportunity for you to dig a little deeper into your own reasons for this narrative, if these questions resonate for you.

Voluptuouschef said:
She is beating herself up because throughout they had no communication about what was happening and she can probably now see him sitting in his hotel rooms wondering who/how many people she was at that moment screwing.
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This is helpful, thanks.
 
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FallenAngelina said:
Sexyserb, you seem to be heaping monstrous portions of shame, blame and guilt upon yourself for ruining what you often describe to us as a storybook and enviable marriage. I just wonder what the fairytale image is all about (for you) and also what the shame is all about (for you.) Here's an opportunity for you to dig a little deeper into your own reasons for this narrative, if these questions resonate for you.
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Sexyserb can correct me if I'm wrong, but as I see it, part of the problem is that there is a massive power imbalance within this relationship. As a result, both a tremendous amount of GUILT and FEAR stems from the knowledge that IF Hero cannot get past this and TRULY forgive her, not only will the marriage be over, but if he decides to spill the beans on what happened to outsiders, her reputation may lie in tatters, she could lose the respect of their children, lose friends and associates, her home and means of support.

As the OP has pointed out numerous times, she and Hero have, or HAD, an "idyllic" marriage. Both are exceptionally attractive people. They live a fairly lavish lifestyle, paid for by Hero as sexyserb does not (need to) work. On the other hand, Hero works his butt off, by his own admission, and may have only agreed to opening the marriage out of either a.) guilt over his own frequent absences, and/or b.) being worn down by his wife's coaxing (reluctant consent).

Sexyserb, by her own admission, broke many of Hero's "rules" for their DADT agreement and went FAR beyond the scope of what she knows he would have consented to, had he actually known what was happening; attending swingers and bdsm parties, having group sex and inviting lovers to their family home and other "no nos" re: the terms of their agreement. He most likely still doesn't know, or want to know, the extent of it... but SHE knows, and it's killing her inside.

Added to that is the fear that IF Hero decides he cannot handle it (this knowledge, the memories and suspicions) and can't heal from this experience and regain trust in sexyserb, the wife he adored enough to "let" her have her way, then at the snap of his fingers she will "lose everything", because all her eggs are in this one basket - a basket owned by this handsome, beloved husband... his income that supports the family and their lifestyle... their circle of friends, business associates etc. He can take it all away from her at his whim, should he choose... AND maintain his own dignity and reputation because HE wasn't the one having sex with random strangers and various lovers while they were apart. HE was the one who loved enough to give his wife everything she needed, desired and asked for. (I'm not saying this to judge, however this may well be the way HERO sees it, from his POV, and I think sexyserb sees it this way too, hence her guilt and fear.)

As for the Valentine's Day plan outburst - yes, no doubt he'd been dreading the day. I'm sure what happened still rankles, because his consent was NOT that "joyous yes!" Hero may not want to act that way (lose his cool), but deep down he probably feels he IS the "hero" of this movie: the hardworking saint who generously gave his ungrateful wife everything she wanted and was mistreated into the bargain.

It's going to take some time to rebuild the bridges that were burnt. I've not re-read the thread, so I can't recall if the OP and her husband are in marriage counselling, however I think that's a necessity here. Also, reading up on healing from an affair, although this was technically NOT an affair... much of what happened wasn't particularly consensual in spirit.
 
Last I read, I seem to recall that you both agreed to take a year and then reassess what to do.

Could you be willing to refresh my memory? In this transition year...

  • What are your present agreements? What are the reasonable exceptions?
  • What kind of emotional support is expected here from each other? Do you also have emotional support from others?
  • What communication agreements are expected here from each other? How's the communication better between you and Hero? Did that ever get better?

Sounds like you hit a big nerve with that Valentine's thing. It is ok to feel mad, but it is not ok to scream at you. I assume that is not his normal pattern and it is a one time or rare thing. The only other time you mention a blow up like that was when talking about people coming to the house.

It's been several months since you Closed back up again and he's been home more. How has that adjustment been going?

What's Hero doing for his healing? If he's been going at it on his own... after this blow up thing is he thinking about changing anything like seeing a counselor or...?

You weren't keen on therapists at one point and now you say you have two therapists. Is that helping you through this transitional time in the ways you want?

In another post you mentioned working on selfishness. Perhaps you mean working on developing more thoughtfulness or more empathy for others or becoming able to put yourself in the other guy's shoes better. How is that going?

He gave you divorce papers to check, and you didn't do that because you felt it was not necessary (for you) because he'd be generous in any divorce thing. But what about what he needs or finds necessary? Maybe he needs you to check to feel like "all is in order no matter which way it ends up" so he can approach this transitional year with more peace of mind?

With this incident... It's like you were surprised at the blow up over Valentine's but then later realized that it may not have been the kindest thing to ask in the way that you asked it in this first year post mess. You may have needed a date night or connection and were hoping to get that out of Valentine's day. He might need something else. Do you have any idea of what that might be?

He came back later and spoke to me normally and just told me to treat Wednesday as another day on the calendar.
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Then do that. Let it be a regular day from this point forward.

And let the blow up be his blow up. You are not a mind reader. I don't think you "screwed things up" by asking him if he wanted to do something next week. At the same time...

You might have to work on HOW you ask things, and thinking....

  • Is this helpful / necessary / kind to ask like this?
  • Is this the right time?
  • Is this the right person?
  • Is this the right place?


....kind of stuff before you ask. Not like walking on eggshells, but like taking more consideration. Putting yourself in the other guy's shoes.

And while the Valentine's day is solved --- treat it like any day going forward in future --- how are you two doing at expressing needs at making requests so they get met?

What are you expectations in this first healing year? If it were me? I would expect some triggers/outbursts/having a cow moments. Esp since he's trying to go at it on his own and there's a lot to heal from. A reasonable goal/expectation might be "less cows over time"
rather than "zero cow."

Well, I guess things were going too smoothly so I had to go screw it up
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This smoothness... is it real? I don't know why you think asking a question is you "screwing (the smooth going) up." What kind of smoothness is it? There being "no conflicts" is not actual "peace in the relationship." It might feel "smooth" like nobody is making a ruckus. But... it may not be true peace. People may just be holding it in and saying nothing until they can hold no more and then they pop. Is that a thing that is happening here?

Apart from this one incident... how are things between you overall in the bigger picture this many months in? The reassessment is in June right?

Galagirl
 
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FallenAngelina said:
Thanks, lunabunny. What you wrote is helpful and does explain things
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You're welcome. I just thought an explanation was in order as a number of forum members seem confused about why the OP carries so much guilt.

Of course, sexyserb may wish to correct any erroneous assumptions or statements on my part.
 
Exactly

Lunabunny, thank you! I was thinking so much of that but just didn't have the time or presence of mind this morning when I replied. Good job!!
 
Voluptuouschef said:
Lunabunny, thank you! I was thinking so much of that but just didn't have the time or presence of mind this morning when I replied. Good job!!
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Thanks, Voluptuouschef. I was impressed by your earlier "pie" analogy too.
 
I have read all the posts here and thank you all, especially those that CORRECTLY shot down the nonsense of Hero being bullying and an abusive husband. Nothing could be further from the truth. Throughout this ordeal, he has 95% of the time never raised his voice to me in the slightest. So now that that is at rest, I want to answer some of the other questions.
To say that my husbands agreeing was not a “happy yes” is an understatement. Remember, this man was home for very short periods of time and for months practically all his down time was occupied with me throwing books and articles at him to read, as if he had the time. VOLUPTUOUS CHEF AND LUNA you didn’t want to speak for me but did a pretty decent job.
Next, I didn’t break all the rules or boundaries, and the ones I did I only did really once, twice at the outside. The house thing was MAJOR and there was NO EXCUSE and I detailed Hero’s reaction to that earlier. For those that didn’t read, he said “You are carrying around a credit card with an available balance high enough to buy the fucker a new car and hire a driver for him rather than using drunk as a reason to bring him to our house”. The two I did not break was I did not keep anyone around long enough to fall in love and I never let anyone we know find out anything. Both of those would have been total deal breakers.
Power imbalance. Subconscious maybe. That’s what the shrinks say caused some resentment. But why?? This man told anyone and everyone how amazing I was as a Mom. He hired housekeepers, lawn services, cleaning people all so I could have nothing but time to make sure the kids were always having one of us at their events and practices. He turned over the finances to me so I would always know where all this money was going, and never once mentioned anything as being his and not OURS. He bought no luxuries other than expensive work suits for himself while I had unlimited funds to make myself look and feel great. Anyone out there that would have a problem getting treated like that.???
Which brings me to the “guilt”. Angelina, let me try to explain that for you. Hopefully, I will do a decent job. Someone mentioned my ‘perfect’ marriage. It was perfect. When I was a little girl I dreamed that I would meet a wonderful boy who would marry me and live happily ever after with me forever. Most of us do, notice I said most, not all. But I did.
And then it happened. My second year at college I sat in a lecture hall with 300 others and in walked the most beautiful gorgeous boy I ever saw. Also the largest I ever saw, LOL. He sat near me and did not take his eyes off of me and I almost fainted when he asked me to go out, and the rest is history. He worked and worked and provided and provided and this was the way it was supposed to be. Never never in my wildest dreams did I ever suspect I would have what I have and at times I still have to pinch myself to realize it is true.
We raised this beautiful family and then for only someone above knows I went off the deep end. I repaid all this mans loyalty and devotion back by doing what I did. And why? Someone mentioned Hero thinking he is the victim here. You know what he did wrong??? He refused to participate in me bringing other men into our bed to fulfill my fantasies, and that is not a little bit selfish on my part. I have watched the Esther Perel you tube a dozen times, and I still can’t accept what I did. Millions and millions of people have fantasies that stay fantasies. And I shouldn’t have any guilt at all simply because I was able to beat him into submission??? I apologize if this is getting long but I do want to answer as much as possible.
Gala Girl
As usual, your response and thoughts are well put, sensible, and non judgemental. Probably why your input is so valuable to many here.
So to answer your questions. Our agreement is CLOSED, period. There are no reasonable exceptions. I have the framework of what my divorce settlement would be, and I am well taken care of if that happens.
The “adjustment has been going great until this incident. We have been very busy over the Holidays, we have sex often and passionately now. Someone earlier also told me my marriage was dead and I had to rebuild a new one. That is absolutely correct and I have done a good job of that. This incident I believe came across as me trying to go back to the way it was before and that will not happen for a long time if ever. I must accept that just like my husband must accept, not necessarily forgive what I did.
Again, I understand some of you folks are more “poly’ minded than me. I never said I was wired that way. That is why I cringe when I read these threads where men are “agreeing” out of fear or KISA THAT THE MUST ACCEPT the initiation of non monogamy from their wives. If it ain’t mutually really agreed on it will most likely end up poorly.
Someone mentioned therapy, especially for my husband since he has stuffed all this down and digested it himself. I am scared shitless of that because again, probably out of selfishness, what if all the sordid details come out?? I do not think that will be helpful to my husband, but I know if it comes to that I will let him decide on what he wants to know and be totally truthful no matter what the consequences are for me. And yes its scary because of the reasons noted by you folks. My kids will hate me, my friends, most of them and certainly their husbands, will probably dump me, etc. That does not concern me as much as keeping my marriage, my new marriage intact. I started this journey with the overriding goal of compartmentalizing this and NOT losing my husband over it. I am going to do that as long as I have the opportunity.
I hope this made sense. I apologize again if I rambled too much. I probably could have written a lot more.
 
Our agreement is CLOSED, period. There are no reasonable exceptions.
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I know you are Closed. I meant more your agreements about other things.

Like communication. What stuff do you need to know? By when? In what manner? Is he holding that up? Are you? Be it scheduling kid things or house things or whatever.

Because you cannot be a mind reader. You have to ask if he wants to do stuff for Valentine's, Easter, Thanksgiving, Christmas, anniversaries, etc. Does he prefer you ask in a certain way so it goes down better next time? Was this way too abrupt/too soon?

I am talking about metacommunication. Not just what you talk about, but HOW you talk about it.

What are your agreements around emotional support? How are you each supposed to "be there for each other?" Is that getting done by him? By you? In the manner you each prefer?

Stuff like that.

Galagirl
 
GalaGirl said:
I know you are Closed. I meant more your agreements about other things.

Like communication. What stuff do you need to know? By when? In what manner? Is he holding that up? Are you? Be it scheduling kid things or house things or whatever.

Because you cannot be a mind reader. You have to ask if he wants to do stuff for Valentine's, Easter, Thanksgiving, Christmas, anniversaries, etc. Does he prefer you ask in a certain way so it goes down better next time? Was this way too abrupt/too soon?

I am talking about metacommunication. Not just what you talk about, but HOW you talk about it.

What are your agreements around emotional support? How are you each supposed to "be there for each other?" Is that getting done by him? By you? In the manner you each prefer?

Stuff like that.

Galagirl
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Gala,

Sorry I misunderstood. We technically closed August 1 when he started in his new position and was home every night. I closed everything off and cut all contacts. Since then we little by little have been doing everything better.
We have talked a lot and communicated a lot. I understand better how I misread for so long what I thought was acceptance as detachment.

We do all the things we used to. The thing really missing is I tell him all the time how much I love him and he says it but not like before. That I know has to be a process over time.

Thanksgiving was a blur with all the company and I took care of everything as he is still working a lot of hours. And Christmas, between company and going to football bowl games in other parts of the country had us so on the run that there was no time to really not communicate. We were together a lot but distracted by being on the run.

He has always let me make all gthe decisions about the house. Decorating and fixtures are not his forte and he stays out of it.

Our sex life amazes me because through all of this, fortunately, we have both stayed connected that way. Just like a woman who “compartmentalizes during an affair, I am sometimes amazed at how well I compartmentalized things. The week that he was home each month was almost like I was transported to a different planet. The burner phone got shit off and we were hubby and wife.

Emotional support?? I am there for him when and if he ever asks for support. If you are not familiar with the “super jock” mentality, asking for support is not high on the list. All I can do is answer any questions HONESTLY and I have.

I still know ( I think I know) that we are going to make it. The ball is actually in my court, as he refuses to play warden. He does not check my communications or social media and simply communicates that if I have this need again to just leave. He will not go through this again. And pushing him is what I did before so I do not want to be pushy now on anything.

Just being on this forum has helped me as a place to vent my thoughts and fears. I understand my thought process and feelings may be the opposite of those that are actively open and see things differently. Thats what makes the world go round and if anyone can come up with sure fire answers to this stuff, they will be the richest person in the world in very short order.
 
If you are largely responsible for running the home and organizing the calendar, you do need info about dates so you can get it on the schedule. You cannot guess or mind reader what he wants to do. You have to ask.

I'm not hearing any communication related agreements like "This first year post mess, we agree not to bring up anniversary or valentine's or....." So you didn't break any agreements by asking.

To me it sounds like in the big picture, things are going ok enough. Just that there was a flare up. I don't think that's unreasonable in the first year post mess. But it might point to a need for better articulated communication agreements to minimize those flares ups moving forward.

I would suggest letting him have his space to calm down... and later on? If you or he have other dates that might be triggers? Talk in advance about how to handle them. Hopefully as the years pass and you keep demonstrating reliable commitment those "trigger-y dates" stop being trigger-y to him (or you).

Galagirl
 
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GalaGirl said:
If you are largely responsible for running the home and organizing the calendar, you do need info about dates so you can get it on the schedule. You cannot guess or mind reader what he wants to do. You have to ask.

I'm not hearing any communication related agreements like "This first year post mess, we agree not to bring up anniversary or valentine's or....." So you didn't break any agreements by asking.

To me it sounds like in the big picture, things are going ok enough. Just that there was a flare up. I don't think that's unreasonable in the first year post mess. But it might point to a need for better articulated communication agreements to minimize those flares ups moving forward.



I would suggest letting him have his space to calm down... and later on? If you or he have other dates that might be triggers? Talk in advance about how to handle them. Hopefully as the years pass and you keep demonstrating reliable commitment those "trigger-y dates" stop being trigger-y to him (or you).

Galagirl
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Gala,

He has calmed down. In fact, he actually apologized for going bonkers. Friday, he texted me to put something real nice on and that i would be picked up in limo since he had to work a little late. Took me to beautiful restaurant and then home for a marathon "sexy time" night. Also got roses. LOL.

Now the bad news. What the hell does a 50 year old man think that enables him to go play basketball with a bunch of 35 year olds and almost fracture his ankle dunking a basketball. I am furious with him but he's hobbling around so I can't be mean.

I'm going to my therapist. I have a lot i want to discuss and I will ask for thoughts here on what she says.. I think I just have to always remember to not say or act like things are totally normal like before. I really wish we could go to MC but i think at this time that would be a big time error on my part.
 
Well its been a while. One year ago I went from party girl back to wife and from open to closed in my marriage. Its been an interesting year. And like clockwork the discussions and decisions have occurred

I probably will for the point of brevity post more details in the blog I started for those that I have been in contact with via Pm or others, but lets start with the good news

(1) I am still married to my Hero. To everyone we know we function as the same couple that we have always been.
(2) Our intimate life is terrific. I am so grateful and lucky his desire for me never waned. So many men get disgusted with their wives when a relationship opens for one reason or another.
(3) Our kids are doing terrific except for ones boyfriend trouble
(4) Our social circle knows nothing of what has occurred
(5) Hero's career still goes like gangbusters.
(6) And maybe most important of all I have is come to ACCEPT that while I made some mistakes I did a lot of things right or I would not still be married, the most important of which was to get my kinks met and not let my emotions or another man destroy everything I had. That mission I accomplished.

Now, not everything was great. A lot of very hard discussions, some of which brought out some not asked for details of what I was doing and how I did it. To say the least he was "shocked" by some of it. Believe it or not, some of that actually had Hero tell me that he actually believed how much I loved him given what I was experiencing to hold fast on that one big one I promised myself.

I had a very difficult time accepting that I was off the pedestal. I still have not heard that I am adored like nothing else on earth that I used to hear all the time. It is definitely a new marriage. If the term forgive can be used i guess its there but he will not forget being punched in the head like I did to him.

I still struggle with the need for male attention. Do not know if that will ever go away. Maybe when and if my looks go. Who knows.
And yes, I did recently do something VERY DUMB AND INAPPROPRIATE that I am actually embarrassed to state here but that a few of you know. Quite honestly, so dumb it could have ruined everything had I not been married to this absolutely amazing man.

So where are we now. Sometimes a little tense. Since we have never resolved the sexual things I asked him to participate in ( no not BDSM or pain), he wonders when and if that will rear its head again and how I can now be without it. I have admitted i do have fantasies, moreso at the beginning but it is certainly manageable. He knows I would not say no if he agreed and does accept that but I also understand his apprehension. We talk a lot since there are no kids in the way to hear at this point.

I actually believe my husband would consider opening to some extent if he saw any way for himself. He has no interest in being a bystander in a mono-open marriage, but unlike some of the men who show up here he understands and believe any form of non monogamy is totally tilted to favor women and then add in how sensitive the job situation is he probably will not want to open. He loves women, attracts them like magnets but he is not going to post his picture on any public website, is not going to get involved with any work hotties and risk a million dollar income if one of them goes off the rails, and has no time to go cruising bars. Then add in the effect of an outing would have on our social circle should he get involved with a "friend: of ours, and the choices narrow for him despite his appearance and appeal as a very powerful man. He sees it as he does most decisions he makes, weighing the risk versus reward.

As for me, I actually am not sure how i would deal with my husband "dating". Not a joyous yes at this time for me. I feel like a gambler who went to Vegas, bet the ranch, and won. And now do I bet again or keep my winnings and go home. Right now, that i think is my best course.

I still struggle with the need for male attention. Do not know if that will ever go away. Maybe when and if my looks go. Who knows.

My take on all this. I am a very lucky woman.

Thats it. I guess pretty boring considering all the drama i read about here.

I do appreciate those of you that reached out to me or responded on this thread. Thank you again
 
Thanks for the update, sexyserb. I have followed your story all along and think you're an interesting person. I have learned from you and am glad you're here. :)
 
Hi sexyserb, thank you for that update. It sounds like things have been going well for the most part, that is good to hear.
 
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