Can Open Relationships Strengthen Rocky Marriages?

[Openandintimate]

That is all a check-in about how you currently feel has to be: You share how you are doing. Like checking a thermometer. You are not expect to DO anything about it. It's just checking where the temperature is at.

If right now it is...

• I feel scared sharing things.
• I have a hard time identifying or naming my emotions.
• I think it sounds crazy when I say that out loud.

Galagirl

I actually just tried this as simple as it is...just checked in with myself and shared. He was thankful! Wary, but open to me.

Over here? I deal with my Alzheimer parent who blows up a lot. Even though he is an adult? I turn toward kid resources frequently because those are what my own kids can deal with as they learn how to empathize with him and how to deal with him.

I can see even in his diminished capacity he can still sometimes "get" what the kid stories are trying to teach. Even if adult resources go over his head.
Galagirl

I actually think the child resources may be a good place for me to start...since I never experienced any expression of feelings or anger control as a child. Good idea!

I'm really sorry you grew up with so much neglect that now you have to be making self repairs.

But hang in there with it. Take it in baby steps. You are worth the investment. So invest in yourself.

Galagirl

Thanks

 

[Openandintimate]

we have todd parr feelings cards

galagirl

this is amazing.

 

[Ravenscroft]

The emotional distance, the angry outbursts... I have low-level ADD, & you sound a bit like me back in my mid-20s, particularly when I was under environmental stress (job & neighborhood, for starters).

I find the title of the thread potentially indicative. Surely you must realize that some such result CAN happen, in much the same way that a $2 investment CAN win the Mega Millions lotto: it's not impossible, but very unlikely.

Openandintimate, the core problem I see here is not that you are "putting the cart before the horse," but that you are putting multiple carts before that one horse, piling unlikelihood upon unlikelihood.

Let's start at the beginning: you want your husband to have other intimate relationships. IMO, if you can manage to make it past that one hurdle, only then should you begin to consider further expectations.

Notice that I said "relationships," plural. Once nonmonogamy enters the picture, it's very unlikely that anyone is going to find a "life partner" right out of the proverbial gate.

• He's going to make connections through some source, perhaps online or in a local poly social group.
• Not all positive contacts are going to have an initial mutual interest.
• Not all of the "clicks" are going to result in a one-on-one meetup (for coffee, say).
• Not all meetups are going to result in a proper date.
• Not all date are going to result in regular dating.
• Not all steady dates are going to result in sexual intimacy.
• Not all sexual intimacy is going to be sustainable, on a regular basis, over the long term.

Most of those steps (if not all) are likely just to get to the point of his having one steady girlfriend.

Some people do take the easy way out & "settle" on the first (maybe second) person they meet. One by one, their "non-negotiable" & "must-have" expectations go out the window as they twist logic & even reality to shoehorn someone into their life rather that continue seeking a person who is actually a natural fit.

In monogamy, that sort of thing happens all the time & has probably happened since monogamy was invented. But "making someone fit" seems to cause later complications in nonmonogamy.

The "multiple carts" come in because there's unlikelihood that finding a steady girlfriend would allow him to feel better about you... or allow you to feel better about him... or allow either of you to contribute to healing your marriage into the future. Certainly, there's no way for two decades of problems to be fixed retroactively.

You don't mention whether the woman with whom your husband is chatting is experienced in nonmonogamy. If not, that's a rather steep learning curve that three peoplemust negotiate, & willingly.

Have you considered separation? Divorce does not have to be contentious. It would free him to find a suitable relationship, & the two of you can still remain affectionately connected, while taking pressure off you as you work on self-healing & self-discovery.

 

[Openandintimate]

You don't mention whether the woman with whom your husband is chatting is experienced in nonmonogamy. If not, that's a rather steep learning curve that three peoplemust negotiate, & willingly.

Have you considered separation? Divorce does not have to be contentious. It would free him to find a suitable relationship, & the two of you can still remain affectionately connected, while taking pressure off you as you work on self-healing & self-discovery.

We don't know if she is experienced in nonmonogamy... As of now, he knows she thinks cheating is wrong. The mention of my husband being married has not come up yet either.. They have only been chatting for a week, over messages.. they haven't even talked on the phone yet. They were planning on a first date this weekend, which is when he was going to mention our situation.

We have tried separating last year...and we failed at it. We were sharing an apartment and took turns being at home with the kids. This lasted for maybe 2 weeks tops. I have suggested on occasion to him that he would be better off with finding someone else who is more equip to meet his emotional intimacy needs... and that we can stay amicable co-parents and business partners. He takes this as the ultimate insult... he thinks, "See, I knew you never gave a shit. You just give up." And that makes him feel even more un-chosen.

 

[GalaGirl]

I actually just tried this as simple as it is...just checked in with myself and shared. He was thankful! Wary, but open to me.

Glad you tried something small, and glad it was well received.

I have suggested on occasion to him that he would be better off with finding someone else who is more equip to meet his emotional intimacy needs... and that we can stay amicable co-parents and business partners.

Unless you plan to file for divorce yourself this month? You could stop talking like that. Because suggesting a separation repeatedly and not following through becomes an additional emotional drag on you while triggering him.

It makes it sound like

1) You keep putting yourself down as "not good enough for him." You have enough going on without adding (you being your own self bully).

2) You have one foot out the door already and aren't really present in the marriage. If that is the case? Finish leaving. What he feels about it after is not your job to manage. His feelings are his job to manage.

If you are gonna be in the marriage, be in it. If you want to leave? LEAVE. Go to the court house and file. Don't "suggest." Just get on with it. No fence sitting. One way or the other. If you find him burdensome and prefer to be divorced and try to be good coparents? Get on with changing your life and reduce some of your load. Meet your own needs first. THEN gift your help to others with their reasonable and rational needs.

If he wants you to manage his emotions for him? When you are just learning how to manage your own? That's not realistic or reasonable. Each person could carry their own emotional baggage. That is more reasonable.

Whenever he feels low or "unchosen" he wants you to pump him back up? A spouse can be many things, but they are not obligated to be a person's perpetual "life raft" or "proper-upper" person. Esp if it is like filling the never ending black hole.

He takes this as the ultimate insult... he thinks, "See, I knew you never gave a shit. You just give up." And that makes him feel even more un-chosen.

He could stop talking like that. If he means "I don't feel cared about" he could SAY "I don't feel cared about." If he means "No, I do not want to separate" he could SAY "No, I don't want to separate." Not put words in your mouth like "See, I knew you never gave a shit. You just give up." That's flipping it around on you/blaming rather than stating what he feels or what he prefers to do instead.

If he does defensive listening? He could work on that. Words like "never" and "always" are trigger-y words. So's putting words in people's mouths that they did not actually say. He does not live inside you. YOU live in there. Only YOU get to say how YOU feel. You are the one feeling it.

You sound like you care a lot, but are at the end of your OWN rope for what else to try or suggest. It might not be the fav solution -- to go ahead and separate/divorce peacefully. But you ARE trying to suggest some solutions.

If he mostly complains about what you suggest? He doesn't offer alternate ideas or solutions of his own? That is part of the problem(s) too.

Does he expects you to "carry" him in this relationship? And you are tired of doing that while at the same time hearing from him how you aren't doing it "right?" If so? It might really hurt to hear him say you are giving up if he's not even giving any help. Is this marriage supposed to be all on you?

If he's acting out with a 40 mph cow hurled at you with the unfair comment, and then you went to 100 mph cow hurled back... you both have a share in the situation making. But he was provoking. Can't be surprised the bomb went boom if he lit a match. Is that happening here? Rather then de-escalate, you escalate each other in conversations?

You could make a list things you've noticed for when you talk to the therapist. If just a list as the things pop up -- great. Do that. If you can organize some, try to organize some.

• Your stuff -- the list of stuff that is on you and you alone to work on.
  
• His stuff -- the stuff that is on him and him alone to work on.
  
• Our stuff -- the stuff you have to work on together.

ALL the stuff cannot be your stuff. All the stuff in a marriage is not your sole responsibility to work out. And maybe when you talk to your therapist, you spend some time with them working out how vested you want to be in this marriage.

I'm happy to support whatever you choose -- stay in it Closed, stay in the Open, break up, etc. But actually stop to think it out with your counselor.

Because 20 years of rocky roller coaster is a lot. You only get the one Life. It's not a dress rehearsal. How do you want to spend then next 5, 10, 20? If you are seeking more peace? And cannot find it inside the marriage because he takes away from peace rather than add to your peace? You might consider not being in the marriage any more.

Galagirl

 

[Openandintimate]

Glad you tried something small, and glad it was well received.

Unless you plan to file for divorce yourself this month? You could stop talking like that. Because suggesting a separation repeatedly and not following through becomes an additional emotional drag on you while triggering him. Galagirl

YES. The pity party is over. That talk is over.

It makes it sound like

1) You keep putting yourself down as "not good enough for him." You have enough going on witho
ut adding (you being your own self bully). Galagirl

I have been very hard on myself and have continually put myself down.

2) You have one foot out the door already and aren't really present in the marriage. If that is the case? Finish leaving. What he feels about it after is not your job to manage. His feelings are his job to manage.Galagirl

He often says " I make him feel a certain way.." but what I am learning from the NVC videos is that this is also defensive talk...kinda like an attack against me.

If he wants you to manage his emotions for him? When you are just learning how to manage your own? That's not realistic or reasonable. Each person could carry their own emotional baggage. That is more reasonable.

Whenever he feels low or "unchosen" he wants you to pump him back up? A spouse can be many things, but they are not obligated to be a person's perpetual "life raft" or "proper-upper" person. Esp if it is like filling the never ending black hole. Galagirl

He says I have to be "over the top and consistent over time" to make him believe that I am genuine and true about how I feel about him. This is kinda like filling the black hole you are talking about.

If he does defensive listening? He could work on that. Words like "never" and "always" are trigger-y words. So's putting words in people's mouths that they did not actually say. He does not live inside you. YOU live in there. Only YOU get to say how YOU feel. You are the one feeling it. Galagirl

This is so true. Based on how he is feeling, he is putting words in my mouth, I think we can both benefit from NVC skills.

Does he expects you to "carry" him in this relationship? And you are tired of doing that while at the same time hearing from him how you aren't doing it "right?" If so? It might really hurt to hear him say you are giving up if he's not even giving any help. Is this marriage supposed to be all on you? Galagirl

He often will say I am waiting here to be the husband of your dreams...but I won't do it, if you are not willing. The ball is in your court.
This is the part where I drive myself crazy. I HAVE taken it to be all on me. Then, I beat myself up for being not good enough, swing to the "self-less" side ( which I now know is unhealthy)...throw a pity party and then explode. I can see where NVC will be instrumental in breaking the cycle for ME... regardless of it is this relationship...or we end up splitting and it is the next one.

If he's acting out with a 40 mph cow hurled at you with the unfair comment, and then you went to 100 mph cow hurled back... you both have a share in the situation making. But he was provoking. Can't be surprised the bomb went boom if he lit a match. Is that happening here? Rather then de-escalate, you escalate each other in conversations? Galagirl

Exaclty what we do.

ALL the stuff cannot be your stuff. All the stuff in a marriage is not your sole responsibility to work out. And maybe when you talk to your therapist, you spend some time with them working out how vested you want to be in this marriage.

I'm happy to support whatever you choose -- stay in it Closed, stay in the Open, break up, etc. But actually stop to think it out with your counselor. Galagirl

I have to choose to stay in the marriage, and at least give it a try with NVC. We have put too much into it to at least give that a try. I hope he will consider this as well.

As for the open or closed part, how do you navigate feelings? So we are on our way to some sort of open-ness to the relationship....with this woman he is talking with. I started this, I encouraged it. He was not interested, but thought since I started it, maybe it could help. He reluctantly went forward with it. Now she is not even aware ( I mean with FB I am sure she is aware that he is married...but it hasn't come up yet). When do you tell the partner? Should they know from the beginning? I feel on one hand a true sense of peace knowing that he is having needs met that I am unable/unwilling to fill at this time. On the other hand, I have feelings of fear...fear of him falling in love with her, fear of losing him, fear of not being good enough, fear of being inadequate. Is this normal? How do you navigate this?

In the past I would think... " this feels BAD, so I must stop or change this feeling to protect myself". DO I just sit with it? DO I just trust?

I am currently out of town with my children, and the plan was that they would meet for the first time when I was away. How do I cope with this with those fears? While on the other hand, I still feel a true sense of peace and joy knowing he is being fulfilled? DO I just stay away from things that would trigger it? (ie. wine, checking fb messenger to see that he is "active", meaning messaging her?)

Because 20 years of rocky roller coaster is a lot. You only get the one Life. It's not a dress rehearsal. How do you want to spend then next 5, 10, 20? If you are seeking more peace? And cannot find it inside the marriage because he takes away from peace rather than add to your peace? You might consider not being in the marriage any more.

Galagirl

If I can't find peace here with counseling and NVC... I am unwilling to live the rest of my life like this. That I know for sure.

 

[GalaGirl]

He often says " I make him feel a certain way.." but what I am learning from the NVC videos is that this is also defensive talk...kinda like an attack against me.

Yup. My Alzeimer father talks like that. I get tired of hearing the blame-shifting. One day he told me I made him feel whatever. I stood up and waved my hands and said “Poof! You are happy!”

And he said “No, I am not.”

I said, “Yes, you are. You just said I make you feel things. Today I decided to make you feel happy. End of story. Only happy talk today. Cuz I made you HAPPY.”

He gave me a LOOK and I just laughed inside. We had peace for the day because he didn't know how to solve that one. He either had to act happy or admit that I don't actually control his feelings and he just likes to blame people. Win for me either way. The peace and quiet did not stick of course, because he's Alzheimer-y. But I'll take peace for the day.

He says I have to be "over the top and consistent over time" to make him believe that I am genuine and true about how I feel about him. This is kinda like filling the black hole you are talking about.

You can be consistent, but you don't have to be “over the top.” It does sound like black hole.

He often will say I am waiting here to be the husband of your dreams...but I won't do it, if you are not willing. The ball is in your court.

How about being a nice husband because HE MARRIED YOU?

If he withholds love/affection in the marriage until you do "consistently over the top"? That's not very "dreamy husband" to me. That's not even reasonable and rational requests to me. That is manipulative/passive aggressive/weird stuff to me.

To me love is shared in a marriage over and over. It doesn't have to be "proven" over and over. If he doesn't trust you to be a good partner for him? You have to keep "proving" you are over and over to him? Why did he marry you in the first place? He could have picked someone else out that suited him better. If you don't meet his impossible standards and he can never believe you are genuine and true even after 20 years? He basically does not trust you? He could just "FIRE" you from the spouse job, break up, and move on. Sheesh. Or you can quit the job and stop working at this Marriage Company.

I have to choose to stay in the marriage, and at least give it a try with NVC. We have put too much into it to at least give that a try. I hope he will consider this as well.

If I can't find peace here with counseling and NVC... I am unwilling to live the rest of my life like this. That I know for sure.

Sounds like you have a limit. One more try with the marriage using NVC skills. And you expect him to try to learn/use them too. Otherwise you are done and will move on and use NVC skills to help your own self in future. I think that is reasonable. Each one holding up their own end of the marriage stick. No more you holding both ends doing everything while he tells you how you are doing it all wrong. He starts holding his end and doing his fair share.

Because if he's just not gonna try after all this? You accept that this is all you get here. Complaining husband, forever promising "dreamy husband" if you only do the impossible... when just a (basic nice husband) would do just as well or even better than (the ever elusive dreamy one that never arrives), or the (forever complaining one that's here and never leaves).

As for the open or closed part, how do you navigate feelings?

I would separate his “his stuff” from “my stuff.” This stuff is his stuff to deal with:

He reluctantly went forward with it. Now she is not even aware ( I mean with FB I am sure she is aware that he is married...but it hasn't come up yet). When do you tell the partner? Should they know from the beginning?

That is (his + her) relationship. On them to deal with it. If he makes a mess with her by not being up front with her? Then he has to clean it up with her. You are not his clean up person. If he brings you his problems from his Other Relationship? You say "No, thank you. No my job. Sort your (you + her) stuff over there with HER. I am not in that part of the V. You and her are."

This part is not your job. You have to STOP being in charge of everything, even his jobs.

This stuff is your stuff:

I feel on one hand a true sense of peace knowing that he is having needs met that I am unable/unwilling to fill at this time. On the other hand, I have feelings of fear...fear of him falling in love with her, fear of losing him, fear of not being good enough, fear of being inadequate. Is this normal? How do you navigate this?

It's normal to feel all sorts of things when facing changes. It is part of the price of admission.

Enjoy the feeling at peace part.

Be ok with him falling in love with her. Maybe he learns how to love people better. Including you. Including himself. Be a whole lot easier if he learned to self-validate and learned to STOP draining his bucket, and learned to refill it himself. So the never ending black hole can finally truly be filled/healed.

Be ok if he wants to break up and go off with her (losing him). Cuz you are gonna break up with him if he doesn't contribute effort in the marriage/try NVC anyway. So pre-worrying this is jumping the gun. Get there when you get there.

Fear of not being good enough, inadequate – that's self bully talk. Learn to spot it, and then cut it out.

Alternately? Accept it. You will NEVER be good enough or adequate enough for him because he has unreasonable expectations of you to be like Superman or Wonder Woman to always be on call to fill his black hole. But him having wonky expectations doesn't mean you cannot be good enough for YOU.

In the past I would think... " this feels BAD, so I must stop or change this feeling to protect myself". DO I just sit with it? DO I just trust?

Accept a certain amount of uncomfortable when embarking on new things. Do not accept over the top "bad." If it is THAT bad, you can bow out. Stop participating. Your consent to participate in things belongs to YOU.

Alternately – decide to CLOSE and focus on (NVC skills + marriage repair). You do not have to be going at it like (NVC + Marrige Repair + Open) if you don't want to be. Earlier you said he doesn't really want to be doing Open and now you say he's reluctant. So don't push him to that. It's ok to tell him you changed your mind. But make up your mind once and for all, and plump for the Final Try -- however shape it is gonna be.

If it were me? I would pick (NVC skills + marriage repair) for the Final Try because honestly? That's enough changes right there -- two new things going on. Adding MORE stuff on top with Open marriage skills to learn too? Why make my life harder than it needs to be right now?

DO I just stay away from things that would trigger it? (ie. wine, checking fb messenger to see that he is "active", meaning messaging her?)

I believe feelings ensue after behavior. Either actions or thinking behavior. So if you are doing stuff or thinking stuff that makes you feel crap? Esp thinking you are responsible for ALL the things in the world? Stop doing that stuff.

Things happen in a life that cannot be helped and you feel bad about it -- say a relative getting cancer. That is in nobody's control. You feel bad hearing the news and sad for them, but you were not responsible for that happening. Not in your control. You are not the one who shows up for chemo. Not your job. That belongs to the patient.

If you throw the shoes and coats and things around the entry? Then you trip later on stuff and feel bad banging your knee? Your belongings are your responsibility. Learn to put stuff way. Stop flinging your things around making the entry dangerous. That IS within your control. That IS your job to be doing.

That why I would NOT Open at this time. That is a choice that is within my control. I accept in my life I will get a share of "rainy day" yucky feelings that cannot be helped but I'm sure not gonna go ADDING extra loads to it! Learning NVC skills is a load, doing therapist work to heal my past is a load, doing marriage repair is a load, why add learn Open Marriage skills as an extra load right now?

If there was an "easy" feeling choice in all this, I'm sure you would have picked it right off the bat.

If all the things are hard here? Pick your hard and then get on with it. Go for the changes you need to make so you can become a healthier person. Invest in yourself.

Galagirl

 

[Openandintimate]

How about being a nice husband because HE MARRIED YOU?

If he withholds love/affection in the marriage until you do "consistently over the top"? That's not very "dreamy husband" to me. That's not even reasonable and rational requests to me. That is manipulative/passive aggressive/weird stuff to me.

To me love is shared in a marriage over and over. It doesn't have to be "proven" over and over. If he doesn't trust you to be a good partner for him? You have to keep "proving" you are over and over to him? Why did he marry you in the first place? He could have picked someone else out that suited him better. If you don't meet his impossible standards and he can never believe you are genuine and true even after 20 years? He basically does not trust you? He could just "FIRE" you from the spouse job, break up, and move on. Sheesh. Or you can quit the job and stop working at this Marriage Company.
Galagirl

You are right...he did marry me. But he has made me believe that the whole thing was crap. I didn't even realize this until the affair, but he says I have been a terrible wife our whole marriage. Geez, when I say that...it makes me thing WTF???

Sounds like you have a limit. One more try with the marriage using NVC skills. And you expect him to try to learn/use them too. Otherwise you are done and will move on and use NVC skills to help your own self in future. I think that is reasonable. Each one holding up their own end of the marriage stick. No more you holding both ends doing everything while he tells you how you are doing it all wrong. He starts holding his end and doing his fair share. Galagirl

The fact that I have identified a limit makes me feel very peaceful and hopeful that this cycle will change...one way or another

That is (his + her) relationship. On them to deal with it. If he makes a mess with her by not being up front with her? Then he has to clean it up with her. You are not his clean up person. If he brings you his problems from his Other Relationship? You say "No, thank you. No my job. Sort your (you + her) stuff over there with HER. I am not in that part of the V. You and her are."

This part is not your job. You have to STOP being in charge of everything, even his jobs. Galagirl

Again, this is very soothing... you are correct, I am trying to control things that I have no control over.

It's normal to feel all sorts of things when facing changes. It is part of the price of admission.

Enjoy the feeling at peace part.

Be ok with him falling in love with her. Maybe he learns how to love people better. Including you. Including himself. Be a whole lot easier if he learned to self-validate and learned to STOP draining his bucket, and learned to refill it himself. So the never ending black hole can finally truly be filled/healed.

Be ok if he wants to break up and go off with her (losing him). Cuz you are gonna break up with him if he doesn't contribute effort in the marriage/try NVC anyway. So pre-worrying this is jumping the gun. Get there when you get there. Galagirl

Again, very peaceful.

Fear of not being good enough, inadequate – that's self bully talk. Learn to spot it, and then cut it out. Galagirl

I do a lot of this, and I am now becoming very aware of my language.

Alternately – decide to CLOSE and focus on (NVC skills + marriage repair). You do not have to be going at it like (NVC + Marrige Repair + Open) if you don't want to be. Earlier you said he doesn't really want to be doing Open and now you say he's reluctant. So don't push him to that. It's ok to tell him you changed your mind. But make up your mind once and for all, and plump for the Final Try -- however shape it is gonna be. Galagirl

Here is where I am stuck...because I have already encouraged this, if I try to share that I am no longer comfortable with this...say for example him meeting her while I am gone, he blows up. He feels that is me...living in my own little world, doing whatever I want to make me happy in any given moment, not giving a shit how it affects others around me. I really struggle with this. I talk the self bully talk big time here. I go into over compensation self-less mode. What would be a good way of telling him that I am not comfortable with an open relationship anymore, without him getting extremely frustrated with me? He feels that he is a real person, and she is a real person with real feelings and they are at my every little whim...whichever way the wind is blowing. If I try to stand up for myself ( maybe it has to do with the "delivery" of it though) he says I am being closed off and indignant.

Part of me feels that I have to really stick by my decision here...and just work on myself and our marriage. Whatever will be, will be regardless. I feel by me making him end it with her, will just add fuel to the fire. And I really am feeling very peaceful about it...I dunno. Galagirl[/QUOTE]

If it were me? I would pick (NVC skills + marriage repair) for the Final Try because honestly? That's enough changes right there -- two new things going on. Adding MORE stuff on top with Open marriage skills to learn too? Why make my life harder than it needs to be right now? Galagirl

 

[GalaGirl]

he says I have been a terrible wife our whole marriage. Geez, when I say that...it makes me thing WTF???

Exactly. WTF? If you are actually that horrible why not leave you then? Jeez. He says a lot of mean things to you.

Here is where I am stuck...because I have already encouraged this, if I try to share that I am no longer comfortable with this...say for example him meeting her while I am gone, he blows up.

He can't ask you to share your stuff more. And then when you do it? He hurls a cow. Does he want (you to report your inner feelings more often) and (both to do marriage repair) or not?

Here is where I am stuck...because I have already encouraged this, if I try to share that I am no longer comfortable with this...say for example him meeting her while I am gone, he blows up.

So? He has blown up before. What's special about it now?

I think since nothing has really started over there, and since he didn't really want to and still seems reluctant?

I think would be ok to check in and say "I wanted to check in. You still want to try doing Open? I'm starting to have doubts on my end for me."

If he likes to argue about every little thing? Blows things out of proportion and you don't have the energy for that? Fair enough. This may not be a time to try to honor his "share more of your inner life stuff with me" request then. Because you have to honor your need for rest FIRST.

Could also just make a decision for YOU on your side of the V and let him deal with his side.

• He can choose to date on his side (or not) at this time.
  
• You decide not to date on your side at this time to keep your load on your side simpler.

He feels THINKS that is me...living in my own little world, doing whatever I want to make me happy in any given moment, not giving a shit how it affects others around me.
I really struggle with this. I talk the self bully talk big time here. I go into over compensation self-less mode.

Is he talking about himself and projecting it on to you?

I use THINK for thoughts and FEEL for emotions and OBSERVE/EXPERIENCE for the things I see/have happen in my life. You might consider being strict with those words since you are trying to get in better touch with your actual emotions.

I could be wrong. But to me? It sounds like when you are emotionally honest and you tell him something he doesn't like hearing?

Instead of saying "Wow. That's hard for me to hear. But thank you for sharing your inner stuff." (Helping make safe space for sharing within the marriage.)

He flips it around on you and calls you names of some sort. (ex: selfish, terrible wife, etc) Because he's feeling yucky so he's gotta blame you for making him feel that. Sharing with him is NOT safe.

What would be a good way of telling him that I am not comfortable with an open relationship anymore, without him getting extremely frustrated with me?

What is terrible if he feels some frustration?

Every person could deal with their own stuff and their own emotional management.

You do your stuff in blue. Stating your current position since you are trying to meet a previous request to share more. You say "I've been doing some thinking and research. I wanted to make you aware that I am not really comfortable doing Open relationship at this time. You can keep going with it on your side, but I don't want to on mine. What are you thinking about on your side? Could you be willing to share?"

Let him deal with his stuff in green. How he feels about the check in and how he does his emotional management? What he wants to share back? That's his job.

If he responds politely, thank him for that and helping make safe space.

If he has a cow? Tell him "No. When you request I share more, and I try to honor that request? You may not have a cow at me for trying to do what you asked. This is not you helping make safe space. I don't have to listen to cow hurling. " Then leave the room.

You held up (or tried to hold up) your end of the stick. If he's not holding up his? He is not. Make a note, walk away. If him having a cow triggers you into having your own cow? Get away from the stimulus. Meet YOUR need FIRST. He can have a cow on his own. He can learn how to deal with his frustration appropriately. Him learning this skill is bad for marriage repair how?

He feels that he is a real person, and she is a real person with real feelings and they are at my every little whim...whichever way the wind is blowing.

To me that's just more blame shifting. If you really do behave that way, overstepping your bounds and telling them what to do at every whim?

He could take personal responsibility for his own life. He could tell you "No. I see you want me to do X. I will not be doing that. That is not a reasonable/rational request."

If I try to stand up for myself ( maybe it has to do with the "delivery" of it though) he says I am being closed off and indignant.

I will assume that your delivery is fine. (Because that's another conversation topic.)

I will ask this -- WHY do you have to stand up for yourself? Could just reflect.

You remind me of my mother. She's so hung up on "The Truth" that any time my father says BS she argues with him over it. He calls her a thief and that she steals all the money. So she spends hours trying to change his mind that the money is all there, showing him bank accounts. Blahblahblah. Trying to stand up for herself and "prove" that she is honest.

I don't bother. When my father calls me a bitch?

First I do a reality check. Am I that?

• No. I already know inside I am not a bitch.
• I know he's being unfair.

Second I ask ask me "what do *I* need most?" (Because I have to meet my needs FIRST.)

• I need to save my energy. I don't feel like doing circle conversations that are stupid. Eldercare days are LONG so getting into stupid in the morning is dumb waste of my energy.

So I just reflect. I just repeat back what he says to me. Or sometimes I just say "OK. I hear you." Me saying my ears are operational is not me AGREEING that I am a bitch. If he's making random announcements to the sky that he thinks I'm a bitch? Ok. I'll make a random announcement to the sky saying my ears work.

Third I check for requests. Is he making any ACTUAL requests here? Are they reasonable or rational ones?

• Nope. I'm not being asked anything like that here. So I don't have to do anything else.

He says "You are a bitch."

I say "Yup. You think I'm a bitch. You can think what you want. "

End of story. I don't say more to save my energy. (my need) There were no requests from him. So I don't have to do anything else.

Learn to meet your own needs first, then gift your help to other people in meeting their reasonable and rational requests. If nobody is asking you to do anything reasonable and rational? Don't just leap up to serve the world. Take a rest. You do not have to be in charge of EVERYTHING.

I'm not going to get sucked into stupid fights. My father is a nasty patient. He gets energized fighting with people, but I don't feel like fighting.

It is his head. He is allowed to think stupid things inside there. I have nothing to prove or argue with him. He can think I am cheese. I already know I am not cheese. What do I need to prove? My not-cheese-ness? For what?

If he says "You are a cheese."

I'll just say "Yup. You think I am cheese. You can think what you want."

And in the privacy of my OWN head, I can think what I want too. It's a wonderful freedom. Usually I think "Crazy old man talk again. Jeez."

Why waste my breath, time, energy on more? What's he gonna do? Tell me to go away because I mirrored what he just said? Ok, I go home. Take a day off. It isn't like I get paid to do caregiver work. I show up to give Mom breaks.

Seriously -- what is your husband gonna do if you reflect back "Ok. You think I overstep my bounds and intrude on your other relationship with my whims."

If you are doing that? Stop doing it.

If you are not doing that? Well, where's the problem? You aren't doing it! You don't have to prove anything. He can think things. Even wrong things.

If he's not making rational and reasonable requests? You don't have to do anything else in this conversation.

It's not your job to fix his wonky thinking inside his head. You don't live inside him. You don't have to fix things inside there. You are not on trial just because someone else is thinking things. You don't have to JADE. (Justify, argue, explain, or defend).

Part of me feels that I have to really stick by my decision here...and just work on myself and our marriage. Whatever will be, will be regardless. I feel by me making him end it with her, will just add fuel to the fire. And I really am feeling very peaceful about it...I dunno.

Then stick with it.

FWIW? To me? You aren't not making him end it with her. You are informing him that YOUR comfort level has changed. That you don't want to do Open on your side.

He can still keep on doing Open with her. Or he could decide he wants to stop on his side also. His stuff is his stuff. Your stuff is your stuff.

If you are low on energy and don't want to get into a circle convo with him doing draining loop-de-loo? I can understand that.

If you only have the energy to do 1 thing? It has to be what YOU need first right now: Rest!

No extra energy right now for bonus work for others like "sharing more."

You do you own basics first. That is not selfish. That is self-care and being self-full.

Galagirl

 

[vinsanity0]

After reading through this thread I am convinced the problem with your marriage is not you. It is him. He has the emotional maturity of a 5 year old. He is bullying you and gaslighting you. You would probably need a degree in psychology to fulfill his needs.

Yes, you have some issues. He is taking advantage of those issues to mindfuck you. That is abuse. I doubt anything would make things improve at this point.

ETA: You will never get to work on yourself with him around.

 

[Openandintimate]

After reading through this thread I am convinced the problem with your marriage is not you. It is him. He has the emotional maturity of a 5 year old. He is bullying you and gaslighting you. You would probably need a degree in psychology to fulfill his needs.

Thanks for taking the time to read through it. I have felt this in the past... but of course I used it as an attack weapon, and I was mindfucked into thinking I am the only crazy, abusive one.

Yes, you have some issues. He is taking advantage of those issues to mindfuck you. That is abuse.

YES. I whole heartedly agree. I do have issues that will follow me wherever I go. I never thought though that he using my issues against me, but I can see that now.

I doubt anything would make things improve at this point.

I would have struggled and beat myself over hearing this in the past. This is no way to live. I will try one last go using NVC skills/therapy. I will give it my all..but I am not willing to put up with abuse any longer ( nor be an abuser). Thankyou.

 

[Magdlyn]

It's very odd that your husband says he wants emotional intimacy, yet he married a woman who he must have known was closed off to her emotions.

And if he somehow didn't know it at first, he certainly learned it over 20 years!

And so now he uses it as a weapon. "Share you emotions or else! You're a loser, I could be the perfect husband if you'd only open up more!"

My story is not exactly like yours. I am able to feel and identify my emotions, but I spent 25 years trying to "prove my love" to my bottomless pit of a husband. He was unable to feel loved. He chose to always think of others first, and do for them, then resent them for having been willing to accept his help, while he got "nothing" in return. He'd lie down and be a throw rug, and then resent when people stepped on him.

He demanded I show my love more, when we were bogged down with 3 kids in 5 years and him working overtime, commuting long hours, and often going to school nights. I was a SAHM with a million responsibilities. He was like my 4th kid. He resented the care I gave the kids. He said he felt like low man on the totem pole. He never helped with housework to let me rest a little and have more energy for sex. He didn't plan any special dates or affectionate gestures to make me feel more like a lover and less like a parent/slave/drudge. He never helped plan holiday or birthday celebrations, or do any of he work to make them happen. And he wondered why I was exhausted.

He was always jealous of my other relationships or even acquaintances, especially other men, but even my platonic woman friends, even my sister. He had such low self esteem and paranoia, when I talked to my girlfriends, he was sure I spent the entire time talking, dissing him.

He wanted me to read his mind as to what he needed to feel loved, but when I tried, and couldn't, he told me. "Make me lunches to bring to work!" I complied. Didn't help... "Make the lunch fancier, cook me something, no sandwiches!" Didn't help... I added lovey stickers to the lunch containers. I added love notes. Didn't help... "I like your hair long!" I grew it way out. Didn't help... "Give me more sex!" I gave him a little more sex, a lot more sex, more creative sex. He enjoyed the sex, but didn't feel loved. "Be more submissive!" I let him make more decisions without offering input, going along with his ideas and desires. Didn't help... "Take vacations and long weekends with me, with no kids!" I moved heaven and earth to find childcare and plan the vacations. It helped a little but was always temporary.

He was always passive aggressive. Poking at me with little cruel digs. Gaslighting me.

Finally we Opened our marriage. As unicorn hunters, since I am bi. Which he always feared, but suddenly thought he'd like, because, threesomes.

It was a spectacular failure. He fell in love with the unicorn, she fell in love with him. She wasn't interested in me sexually, just as a friend. But they were in deep NRE. He neglected the kids and our home care even more (he used to do some yard work, repairs, and take my car for maintenance. That stopped). He wined and dined her for long weekends. He told me he wanted to move her into our house as a second wife (I put my foot down at that). Our little vacations stopped. After 8 months, I vetoed the relationship. (As we'd agreed either of us could if one of us was unhappy.) Their love didn't end. Long phone calls, emails, and platonic meetings, which were emotionally intimate, continued. (I'd OKed them being platonic friends, but really, it was a deep love affair, without the overt actual sex.)

So, I went on this way for several years. I fell into depression, so we started therapy. I was determined to "do everything to save our marriage." I spent a year on a SSRI. We did 1 year of couples counseling with a counselor who was well versed in alternative relationships (because of our homeschooling, and the Open marriage attempt). I did 3 years of individual therapy. He did one year. Our therapist fired him because of his inability or refusal to progress past a certain point. She said I was doing all I could.

Finally, after my 3 years of individual counseling, I stopped trying to fill his black hole of need. I saw no matter what I did or said (and our counselor confirmed this), he was unable to see or feel my love. I saw our patterns of disconnect. I started to withdraw and seek other healthier avenues for my life. I made more friends and got support in loving who I was. My friends affirmed my feelings. I traveled without my husband, to see my new friends and other parts of the country. We tried a different couples counselor, who was completely unhelpful.

We ultimately split when I was 54. I had held on too long. I was too stubborn to give up, believing in "sunk cost fallacy." But right away, I began creating a much much more fulfilling life and better relationships, where I didn't feel constantly judged, where I never feel not good enough or unable to "make" someone feel loved. I finally found freedom. I found real love.

So. Good luck with trying NVC and therapy. I hope it helps you know yourself better, get more in touch with your emotions, learn to stop the rage attacks. But maybe it will also teach you, you can't "make" someone feel loved. Some people just can't see and accept love even when it's right in their face.

 

[GalaGirl]

I hope you feel a little better for airing out some here. I REALLY hope your therapist can be an even bigger help. You have so much going on.

Yes, you have some issues. He is taking advantage of those issues to mindfuck you. That is abuse.

YES. I whole heartedly agree. I do have issues that will follow me wherever I go. I never thought though that he using my issues against me, but I can see that now.

Is THAT why he wants you to "share more?" So he can have more ammo to use against you and abuse you with? If so, you don't have to honor that request to "share more." It is ok to keep your emotions to yourself in that case. You do not have to HELP him abuse you.

Def tell your therapist all that been going on.

Galagirl

 

[Openandintimate]

It's very odd that your husband says he wants emotional intimacy, yet he married a woman who he must have known was closed off to her emotions.

And if he somehow didn't know it at first, he certainly learned it over 20 years!

And so now he uses it as a weapon. "Share you emotions or else! You're a loser, I could be the perfect husband if you'd only open up more!"

Yes, kind of odd when you think about it. I think we both didn't realize this though...I don't know if he realized his desire for deep emotional connection until after his affair. It always seemed to be arguments about "sex", but that was just because he couldn't articulate what he was missing, I feel.

He was always passive aggressive. Poking at me with little cruel digs. Gaslighting me.

It is so hard to know when you are being gaslighted. I mean I think I am going crazy sometimes....ever since the affair, it has been all about HIS needs, If I even mention me or my needs, he says I don't deserve to have them met..he has been through 20 years of shit. WELL IF IT WAS THAT BAD, why didn't you leave??? If I bring up tat we are both humans and we both have needs, that is me being closed and indignant.

Finally we Opened our marriage.

This is happening RIGHT NOW as I type. I am kind of a wreck...he is on a first date with a woman when I am out of town.

I saw no matter what I did or said (and our counselor confirmed this), he was unable to see or feel my love.

I am wondering if this is the case... is it that he is just viewing me through the lens of the past, and he can't see me for who I am now?

We ultimately split when I was 54. I had held on too long. I was too stubborn to give up, believing in "sunk cost fallacy." But right away, I began creating a much much more fulfilling life and better relationships, where I didn't feel constantly judged, where I never feel not good enough or unable to "make" someone feel loved. I finally found freedom. I found real love.

Ah this make me cry. I am only 43 right now... I had gotten to a point where I really believed I didn't deserve more. I didn't deserve to have my needs met. I really believed I was a freak human being who didn't actually have any needs.

So. Good luck with trying NVC and therapy. I hope it helps you know yourself better, get more in touch with your emotions, learn to stop the rage attacks. But maybe it will also teach you, you can't "make" someone feel loved. Some people just can't see and accept love even when it's right in their face.

I am having a hard time locating someone locally who is trained in this... any suggestions for long distance counselling in NVC is greatly appreciated.

 

[Openandintimate]

I hope you feel a little better for airing out some here. I REALLY hope your therapist can be an even bigger help. You have so much going on.

I really do and you have been so generous with your time posting on my thread and have really provided me with some eye opening realizations. So thank you. That NVC book you suggested will be arriving tomorrow in the mail....I am so excited! ON that note, I have been having a hard time locating a local therapist trained in NVC. I am wondering if you could recommend someone online for long distance consulting?

Is THAT why he wants you to "share more?" So he can have more ammo to use against you and abuse you with? If so, you don't have to honor that request to "share more." It is ok to keep your emotions to yourself in that case. You do not have to HELP him abuse you.

Def tell your therapist all that been going on.

Galagirl

He is actually out on his first date RIGHT NOW as I type... earlier today, I shared my concerns and hesitations of opening the relationship with the intention of trying to fix our marriage....and of course this was me trying to "control everything" and have everything be dictated by my every whim or fancy. I was VERY careful of my language ( something I am usually not super conscious of) to not place blame at all. I am not sure if there is hope for us...but I do really want to find a good therapist for sure.

 

[GalaGirl]

You are welcome. Glad it helped you some. I don't know you personally, but you sound sincere and like you are in a really tough situation. I'm sorry you are dealing with SO much.

It is so hard to know when you are being gaslighted. I mean I think I am going crazy sometimes....ever since the affair, it has been all about HIS needs, If I even mention me or my needs, he says I don't deserve to have them met..he has been through 20 years of shit. WELL IF IT WAS THAT BAD, why didn't you leave??? If I bring up tat we are both humans and we both have needs, that is me being closed and indignant.

Wow. He really says a LOT of mean things to you.

It's like to him you are a robot servant / his emotional/verbal punching bag and not a real person. He can be a real person, his new date can be real person, but you are just not allowed to be.

earlier today, I shared my concerns and hesitations of opening the relationship with the intention of trying to fix our marriage....

Marriage repair is a 2 person job. You cannot fix it alone. He has to agree to this shared mission and be willing to do his fair share to help bring it about. And if he's talking mean to you like that right now? I doubt he's really interested in marriage repair. I doubt it's a shared mission to him.

Ah this make me cry. I am only 43 right now... I had gotten to a point where I really believed I didn't deserve more. I didn't deserve to have my needs met. I really believed I was a freak human being who didn't actually have any needs.

And you have internalized his criticisms so much it's like you never get a break from the Mean Channel. Even when he isn't around you have his record album playing in your head.

I have been having a hard time locating a local therapist trained in NVC. I am wondering if you could recommend someone online for long distance consulting?

You could separate the two.

Find a local therapist who can help you learn identify your emotions and how to do better emotional management (stuff your parents did not teach you in the past) and dealing with emotional abuse (your present.) You could ask them if they also know Non-Violent Communication techniques, but if not, that's ok.

I would start checking your insurance card (if you have) and go with the people on their list first. If you need a low cost/free group class? Call women's shelter. They sometimes hold "healthy relationship/prevent abuse" classes in libraries and places like shopping mall meeting rooms.

There's other ideas in between those two ends -- like checking local universities. I do college part time and they do SO much work for healthy dating/abuse prevention that if I needed it? It would be worth it to take whatever class -- swimming for PE or similar -- and pay the tuition. Just to be a student to get access to the health services!

Find an NVC class/teacher separately.

Could try here https://www.cnvc.org/learn-nvc/learn-nonviolent-communication)

Or you could listen to the 3 hour workshop online at YouTube.

Or do the training course series one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZnXBnz2kwk&list=PLlRkRHAyI2xHN6UUD53X76NQWVV4d0opf

Sometimes churches, community centers, extension offices offer NVC to the community. (DH and I caught a caught a class series at a church. Nice to do exercises with other people, but it can be studied solo.)

You might also look at the Speak Out Loud tactic list. The more you talk about him and what he says, the more I think you could be experiencing things from the list.

Website list: https://speakoutloud.net/intimate-partner-abuse/male-perpetrators-domestic-violence/mens-tactics

Download a PDF version : http://www.waves.org.nz/index.php/download_file/view/639/1242/

Clear your browser history. If you print the PDF to highlight and see which categories are the fav ones? Do it at a friend's house or at the library and then rip it up and throw it away where he will not get it.

Think ahead. If he's that mean, and uses things as ammo against you? Be careful. Don't leave stuff around for him to find.

If you end up deciding to leave? He might get mad you are taking away "his robot/punching bag." He could start retaliating/escalating to prevent you from leaving. That whole "If I can't have her no one can" weirdness. Have a safety plan. http://www.thehotline.org/help/path-to-safety/

Nobody likes to think about it or that it could happen to them. But better to hope for the best and plan for the worst so you can be safe.

GL!
Galagirl

 

[Openandintimate]

You are welcome. Glad it helped you some. I don't know you personally, but you sound sincere and like you are in a really tough situation. I'm sorry you are dealing with SO much.



Wow. He really says a LOT of mean things to you.
It's like to him you are a robot servant / his emotional/verbal punching bag and not a real person. He can be a real person, his new date can be real person, but you are just not allowed to be.

UGH... it went horribly wrong tonight. He went out on is first date, and I am out of town. Even though I shared my feelings of concern, he basically told me it wasn't this, he is out of here... I thought I could handle it, so I agreed. I was freaking out a little.... He texted to me an hour or so in to tell me she didn't know he was married, so he was going to have that convo with her right away... SILENCE.... for hours. I started really freaking out. Then he called me after he left, I tried to start micro managing his relationship. I asked him how it went when he told her he was married...and he said " I told her our story"....and I heard... " I told her you are a shit wife".... I got super defensive, and I think that was that last straw. I freaking blew up at him AGAIN. For something I asked him to do...to meet his needs, because I am not. I feel pretty hopeless right now.

 

[GalaGirl]

I think maybe you blew up because there is no respect, reciprocity, or mutuality in this relationship.

• You try to meet his needs doing Open even though it stresses you out. He doesn't say thanks.

• You try to meet his needs for sharing more about yourself. He doesn't say thanks.

• You express your concerns, perhaps asking to be reassured. He tells you he doesn't care about your concerns/needs and blows you off.

• He's on his date. Does he leave you be so you can calm down from the stress? Do your self care? Nope. He doesn't give you space/peace to calm down. He's texting/calling you to give you the play-by-play. For what? To be mean and to keep you amped up and rattled? Rub your nose in it? That's mean. And playing mind games.

He texted to me an hour or so in to tell me she didn't know he was married, so he was going to have that convo with her right away... SILENCE.... for hours.

Pot stirring. It's like he's "punishing you" for "making" him go on the date he said earlier he did not want to go on. (When if he did not want to go, he could just not go. Just like if he says you suck the whole time of marriage? He could have just dumped you years ago.)

He could have told her he was married over phone/chat before meeting up in person. He could have told her at the start of the date. Instead? He calls you an hour into the date specifically to tell you HE HAS NOT TOLD HER. Then radio silence for hours. Then when he calls later and you ask if he told? A natural question to ask in the circumstances? Sounds like he flipped it around on you calling you a "micro-manager." That whole date sounds like a set up to me -- for a punching bag round with you.

Like he's not on this date to get to know her better He's on this date to get/make ammo to ding YOU with.

None of this sounds good, hon. He sounds more pot stirrer than marriage repair helper.Perhaps you are realizing he isn't gonna help. And you trying to fix this marriage by yourself is going to be hopeless endeavor. Which is sad, and I get mourning a loss.

At the same time? If the reality is that you guys bring out the worst in each other rather than the best? For 20 years of rocky marriage? Isn't that enough time trying?

If Life here is basically damned if you do, damned if you don't... Maybe it's ok to let it go now rather than keep on dragging it out. Be done being damned. Make your safety plan/escape plan, transfer money to a bank account of your OWN in your own name. Then when ready... quietly go to City Hall to file for divorce and divide the rest.

Please do keep trying to secure a therapist. You sound like you could really use extra support right now in real life.

Galagirl

 

[Magdlyn]

OK, this is terrible.

UGH... it went horribly wrong tonight. He went out on is first date, and I am out of town. Even though I shared my feelings of concern, he basically told me it wasn't this, he is out of here...

"It wasn't this," means? That he doesn't care you're concerned and he's off to have fun?

I thought I could handle it, so I agreed. I was freaking out a little.... He texted to me an hour or so in to tell me she didn't know he was married, so he was going to have that convo with her right away... SILENCE.... for hours. I started really freaking out.

I understand you wanted a check-in during the date. It's understandable, since you are worried. But it's not reasonable to expect your partner to text you often from a first date to let you know how things are going.

Then he called me after he left. I tried to start micro-managing his relationship. I asked him how it went when he told her he was married...

That doesn't sound like micro-managing to me. (Were those his words? "Stop micro-managing me?") It sounds like you want to make sure his poly practices are ethical, and that there is consent on the part of his date person to date a married man.

...and he said "I told her our story"... "I told her you are a shit wife"...

OK, that is very very rude, almost evil! This is where I hurt for you. It's not polyamory if there isn't "love" on all sides. He doesn't get to go date just to dis his spouse! It sounds like he's doing this dating thing, not to get his "needs met," but for the purpose of revenge or just to wound you. I'd withdraw my consent for this and get out of this marriage (following GG's advice for safety). This guy sounds like a loser. I do not think he'd be interested in non-violent communication. He has no respect for you. Like GG said, you're just his punching bag at this point. You're so beat down, you think it's your fault, that you deserve this kind of treatment.

At the very least, you should stop talking to him... you need a mediator, a therapist, who can prevent this type of verbal violence and abuse, if there is any chance for reconciliation. And if there is no chance, the therapist can support you in getting out of the marriage, to safety and healing, to learning how you deserve a better life.

I got super defensive, and I think that was that last straw. I freaking blew up at him AGAIN. For something I asked him to do...to meet his needs, because I am not. I feel pretty hopeless right now.

His needs are to tell his date what a shitty wife you are? First of all, he's giving her a bad, untrue, idea of what polyamory is. Second, if he goes on a date just to come home and gloat about how he told date person how much you suck, that's not ethical. Polyamory is not something you resort to, to meet the needs of one partner. Polyamory is loving more that one, with the consent of all involved. Do you consent to him dating others just to tell them what a shitty wife you are? If he thinks you're so shitty, you might as well leave right now. This is NOT polyamory.

 

[powerpuffgrl1969]

I agree with the others. You are NOT crazy and he IS gaslighting you. You deserve better.