Poly; an aspect to sexuality

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ElMango

Member
This may be controversial; so I just want a base reminder to try to be chill and phrase things with empathy in mind.

I believe it poly is an aspect of sexuality.

You can have bi/pan people who are more attracted to one gender than another; a bi person is no less bi is they're only 25% attracted to the other genders vs their own. A cis bi woman is no less bi if she is married to a cis hetero man.

You can have a spectrum of asexuality; some are sex repulsed, others while there is no sexual aspect to intercourse, enjoy it because of the connection to their partner(s).

Trans and NB people can be heterosexual.

Non-binary as a whole is an umbrella term for things such as demi-girl, agender, two-spirit, etc.

Gender presentation can be a complex part of societal construct.

Some people know their sexuality/gender early and almost on instinct; others take years and years to figure things out.

Some people are 100% poly and they will be unhappy in a mono relationship structure.
Some people are 25% poly; and are happy with either but have a preference.
Some people are 100% hetero, but they're 100% poly.
Some people are mono, but because it brings their partner joy and fulfillment are happy to be a mono in a poly-ship.

There is so much of a spectrum to all of these very complex and imo, very intertwined, emotions and sexualities and genders.
In my mind, inclusion and/or education are the more valuable aspects of being LGBTA+

A cis lesbian will still need education about people who are trans and/or bisexual, and/or etc, and how to be inclusive.
A cis bi/pan person will still need education about all of the other aspects as well and so on and so forth.
Race also plays a very important role in the constructs around the LGBTA+ world. So does social class.

A cis, white, upper class poly man will need more education about how to be inter sectional and not a d-bag and disabling social constructs than other groups.

I have personally met very racist, transphobic, biphobic cis lesbians and gay men. They are no better than a cis, white, upper class poly man who isn't those things.

No one is perfect, and not everyone can be educated or deserves to have people waste their time doing so. Emotional labour is not a queer persons responsibility to provide; but we must remember that if people are respectful about asking questions, maybe we should at least try to answer them?

Thoughts?
 
Hi ElMango,

I am somewhat divided in my mind on whether to classify polyamory as an orientation or an existing relationship structure. I guess it can be (both or) either, depending on the person and the situation.

Quite awhile back, I started a few threads on these and similar questions ...

Your thread here reminded me of those threads there. To some extent they shed light on the subject, but maybe they also produced a lot of heat and smoke.

Regards,
Kevin T.
 
Hi Kevin!

I pretty much expect this discussion to ruffle at least a few feathers. (None of this is supposed to sound mad or anything! Sorry if it does I hope not)

I'm also going to try to address some of the stuff in the OP of your original threads.

I believe, like non-binary, polyamory is an umbrella term like consensual non-monogamy. Swinging, would count as poly; maybe not in the romance part but in the sexual. My poly experience basically started with swinging and evolved. Personally, I'd say while I can be happy in a mono relationship; I am emotionally, and physically and mentally fulfilled by poly; and had I known it was a thing growing up in my formative years, I'm also certain I'd have taken it as identity. I already tried experimenting with no more than 3rd base 3ways in high school, and always had it so in relationships me "being a flirt" was okay with my partner. When I look back, the evidence was there but the language wasn't

Sexual repulsion and asexuality can be caused by trauma or medical conditions as well as it being a sexuality.

In terms of poly/mono being a societal structure, I'd compare that to gender presentation as well. Sometimes gender presentation reflects directly onto a sexuality or gender identity; some people identify as androgynous for sexuality but dress very gendered!
For sure Monogamy, for the most part, is the greatly enforced societal structure and norm. I can't have two husbands legally or even in terms of "spiritual husband" and "legal husband" where I am. But, if I was cheating and had a forever side piece that's legal. Law and society say one is wrong and the other is not; morals really don't come into play.

With gender presentation; if you have a vagina you are not only a woman but you should LOOK "like a woman" and the same goes for people with a penis.

There are also queer people who feel compulsive heteronormitivity. So, even if they are a lesbian, society has told them that you must only like men so trying to decode all their feelings and sexuality can be very hard and confusing; does that make them less gay?

Neither is better. Mono and poly are equal in morality (assuming both are being practiced morally); it's when you are being forced to fit a mold you don't fit that there is a problem. Forcing a mono person to 'be poly' is not okay; same with the other way around. The fact that society forces poly people to be underground and hide; essentially in the closet, is damaging. It increases shame, decreases informed consent (as if you aren't properly informed how can you properly consent).
 
It's commonly stated that non-monogamy is the "umbrella term" and poly, swinging and other varieties of open relationship fit under the umbrella. People may practice these individually or together. IIghtfield have a polyamorous relationship structure and swing on occasion too.

I don't know why you think this is controversial, it's literally discussing what polyamory is and how it fits into other relationship structures and orientations.
 
ElMango said:
... if people are respectful about asking questions, maybe we should at least try to answer them?

Thoughts?
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My thought is that this is what this forum community is all about. I'm wondering about the instructive nature of this presentation and why any of it would be controversial here. Most of us seem to be fairly experienced or at least educated about all of this stuff. Is your experience here that we are disrespectful or ill informed?
 
Goodness no! I think most people here are really informed.

I've experienced, especially in queer Canadian Facebook groups get VERY upset when this iss brought up. Agreeing to disagree cannot be done in those groups forums are very angry

So mostly I was just worried people would get angry here. Or at least heated.

Sorry for the confusion and assumption
 
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SEASONEDpolyAgain wrote:

It's commonly stated that non-monogamy is the "umbrella term" and poly, swinging and other varieties of open relationship fit under the umbrella. People may practice these individually or together. IIghtfield have a polyamorous relationship structure and swing on occasion too.
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Well stated - this would reflect my understanding as well.

The orientation discussion has been ongoing here on many threads. Since almost everyone is capable of having romantic attraction and/or feelings for more than one individual at any given time, it seems to me that polyamory is the lifestyle choice to act on those feelings for multiple individuals - monogamy is the lifestyle choice not to act on those feelings and to accept the cultural norm of monogamy.

If there is an orientation, it might be reflected in one's intrinsic preference for one lifestyle choice over the other.

Al
 
Re (from ElMango):
"There are also queer people who feel compulsive heteronormativity. So, even if they are a lesbian, society has told them that you must only like men so trying to decode all their feelings and sexuality can be very hard and confusing; does that make them less gay?"
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Following the same line of thinking but in an opposite direction, I think/believe that I am heterosexual, but should I maybe suspect that I am "pushed into heteronormativity" by society, so that when I am looking at my orientation, I should "correct" for the pressures of society and assume that I am more gay than I think I am? So confusing.

The same concepts could be applied to poly if poly is (or can be considered) an orientation. Should a mono person assume that they are really less mono (more poly) than they think they are? due to correcting for societal pressures. Hmmmm
 
It seems to me that whether polyamory is a relationship model choice or something closer to an "orientation" or "identity" would only be a problematic or difficult question (discussion) where there is the presence of a strong social taboo in deviating from a supposed norm -- which, sadly, is the case with nonmonogamy in many (most) places.

It's the same with LGBTQ topics and issues. It's only a light, casual, easy questioning conversation where the social taboo isn't much (or at all) present. It's a heated, difficult, drama-ridden debate outside of such a friendly milieu.

Sexuality identity, e.g., gay, bi, straight..., became "a thing" because it was especially politically necessary, and remains so to some lesser degree, in the past (and it remains as bad or worse in some places to this day). But were there no social taboo around sexual orientations … would we even think of these questions in identity terms? I doubt it. I have known young men who on any given month have a boyfriend and three months later they have a girlfriend, and the younger generation often accepts this as "just how we are". No big deal. Sexual orientation really isn't a big deal, until we make it one by marginalizing, shaming and diminishing people (or worse). Same with non-monogamy.

Non-monogamists really do NEED identity as such these days, because non-monogamists are treated not unlike how gay people were treated in the USA before Stonewall, and not so different from how blacks / African Americans were (and still are) treated in the Deep South. Identity serves a political purpose, until that purpose is no longer necessary, after which folks stop worrying about which side of your head you part your hair on. Who cares?! So what?!

I've been in the who cares so what place for so long now, regards sexual orientation and nonmonogamy that I'm a bit impatient with other folks slowness in arriving here. It's where we're all likely headed, I suspect.
 
Some people who aren't straight but are poly find the comparison between poly and LGBT extremely offensive. That's because they might have been beaten up for being gay, but merely mocked for being poly. Some find it a completely inappropriate comparison to make.

Others who are in the same demographic do feel it's an apt comparison.
 
SEASONEDpolyAgain said:
Some people who aren't straight but are poly find the comparison between poly and LGBT extremely offensive. That's because they might have been beaten up for being gay, but merely mocked for being poly. Some find it a completely inappropriate comparison to make.

Others who are in the same demographic do feel it's an apt comparison.
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I wonder if both sides could ever find...collaboration?

I know I've if anything been treated worse for being poly than bi in my area, so that colors my views
 
I have no idea why it would become so heated and problematic! Both LGBTQ (etc.) folks and poly folks are discriminated against and treated badly / unkindly / unfairly by some others. Thus making a comparison of kind is absolutely logically consistent, factual and practical. Is it the comparison of degree that folks are getting in a huff about?

I've experienced some bigotry (prejudice, antipathy) about my being bi and also about my being poly. Heck, I've experienced bigotry for being a tall white male! (Seriously!) We should all be siding against bigotry and with each other rather than infighting over nonsense.
 
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River said:
I have no idea why it would become so heated and problematic! Both LGBTQ (etc.) folks and poly folks are discriminated against and treated badly / unkindly / unfairly by some others. Thus making a comparison of kind is absolutely logically consistent, factual and practical. Is it the comparison of degree that folks are getting in a huff about?

I've experienced some bigotry (prejudice, antipathy) about my being bi and also about my being poly. Heck, I've experienced bigotry for being a tall white male! (Seriously!) We should all be siding against bigotry and with each other rather than infighting over nonsense.
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I think for someone who has been very visibly queer for a long time, it's hard to equate the 2 as people were/are actively beaten up and killed for being queer or trans in developed countries whereas the same doesn't exist for poly people. We don't have groups that go around targeting poly people for violence.
 
I agree with you, SEASONEDpolyAgain.

Any form of discrimination is wrong, of course, but I also see a big difference between how visibly* LGBT+ people are treated and how straight/cisgendered polyam people are treated.

*for lack of a better term.
 
SEASONEDpolyAgain said:
I think for someone who has been very visibly queer for a long time, it's hard to equate the 2 as people were/are actively beaten up and killed for being queer or trans in developed countries whereas the same doesn't exist for poly people. We don't have groups that go around targeting poly people for violence.
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Where I live violence directed at LGBTQ people appears to be extremely uncommon. And nationwide, it appears that violence directed at gay, lesbian and bisexual people is not all that common anymore. At least not nearly as common as it once was. I hear that trans folks are somewhat commonly targeted violently, though.

In any case, where I live -- and I'm very much visible as queer (my same-sex partner and I are frequently seen together all over town) and I have not had need to fear. (Well, neither of us have been 'targeted' in two decades of visibility.)

Social norms and taboos are "enforced" by other means than violence most of the time -- e.g., with words of opprobrium and ostracism. And I've heard a lot more opprobrium directed at polyamorous people than LGBTQ people where I live.

I get it, though, that some folks live in places where the thread of violence to LGBTQ folks is more pronounced than my little oasis. I'm just being honest about how that oasis shapes my thinking and experience. I also have the general impression that in the USA, in most urban places, violence toward gay, lesbian and bi folk is just not common any longer. I even see gay men walking hand in hand in my town. They look quite unafraid.
 
River said:
Where I live violence directed at LGBTQ people appears to be extremely uncommon. And nationwide, it appears that violence directed at gay, lesbian and bisexual people is not all that common anymore. At least not nearly as common as it once was. I hear that trans folks are somewhat commonly targeted violently, though.

In any case, where I live -- and I'm very much visible as queer (my same-sex partner and I are frequently seen together all over town) and I have not had need to fear. (Well, neither of us have been 'targeted' in two decades of visibility.)

Social norms and taboos are "enforced" by other means than violence most of the time -- e.g., with words of opprobrium and ostracism. And I've heard a lot more opprobrium directed at polyamorous people than LGBTQ people where I live.
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I get this completely. I know in my city, lots of the poly people I talk to feel it is part of the queer spectrum. But, my city is also pretty good; no where near perfect, but not horrible.
The last time I was badly bullied for being queer was grade 10 and grade 10 only. They tried to beat the crap out of me and the school kinda shrugged and I got to no longer go to the class they were in. Since then though...no one has cared one iota.

The poly thing though...yeah...people get weirder about that. Much weirder.

I guess that brings into question; should it being on the spectrum be left up to the fact people are making emotion driven decisions and comparing, essentially, oppression?
 
ElMango said:
I get this completely. I know in my city, lots of the poly people I talk to feel it is part of the queer spectrum. But, my city is also pretty good; no where near perfect, but not horrible.
The last time I was badly bullied for being queer was grade 10 and grade 10 only. They tried to beat the crap out of me and the school kinda shrugged and I got to no longer go to the class they were in. Since then though...no one has cared one iota.

The poly thing though...yeah...people get weirder about that. Much weirder.

I guess that brings into question; should it being on the spectrum be left up to the fact people are making emotion driven decisions and comparing, essentially, oppression?
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I think people have to be mindful of what might be behind these differences in views. I have a openly gay 15 year old nephew. He's all tight tops and sort of James Dean sex appeal but openly gay with it. Has been since about 14. But he lives in LA, attends an arts school and grew up in San Francisco. He doesn't get why people find it hard to come out and he doesn't really believe that many people suffer for being gay. It's made him popular and desirable in his peer group.

It's taken older gay men to really show him what life was like just one generation ago for them so he could develop enough empathy to understand why some gay men don't come out until much later in life.

Similarly, those older gay men might see him as ignorant and triggering because he just didn't understand why they were so scared. They have to understand that many of them grew up in a bible belt that still hadn't changed that much in terms of social attitudes even if laws prevent some of the ways they express their views. He grew up in a place where being cis and straight was almost boring and that has influenced his ability to be open.
 
SEASONEDpolyAgain said:
I think people have to be mindful of what might be behind these differences in views. I have a openly gay 15 year old nephew. He's all tight tops and sort of James Dean sex appeal but openly gay with it. Has been since about 14. But he lives in LA, attends an arts school and grew up in San Francisco. He doesn't get why people find it hard to come out and he doesn't really believe that many people suffer for being gay. It's made him popular and desirable in his peer group.

It's taken older gay men to really show him what life was like just one generation ago for them so he could develop enough empathy to understand why some gay men don't come out until much later in life.

Similarly, those older gay men might see him as ignorant and triggering because he just didn't understand why they were so scared. They have to understand that many of them grew up in a bible belt that still hadn't changed that much in terms of social attitudes even if laws prevent some of the ways they express their views. He grew up in a place where being cis and straight was almost boring and that has influenced his ability to be open.
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I agree completely!

Definitely empathy is key in this. I know that there will be no unilateral reconciliation of ideas for a long time to say the least.
 
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