Guru falls

[rosephase]

I think it shows how ingrained in society mono is that the poly person is the one being vilified here. I see the chaos as a result of the incompatibility, if that makes sense.

Also the poly person wrote a popular book about it using his version of the narrative. And the poly person is held up as someone who is good at these relationships and is an expert.

His ex's didn't have anywhere near the platform he had. And they had to watch as he told their stories (in ways they didn't agree with) to explain his emotional arch.

Also Amber and Eve are poly. I don't think it's as simple as we all want to pick on the poly person and not look at the choice of mono people who choose to stay with poly people.

 

[vinsanity0]

Also the poly person wrote a popular book about it using his version of the narrative. And the poly person is held up as someone who is good at these relationships and is an expert.

His ex's didn't have anywhere near the platform he had. And they had to watch as he told their stories (in ways they didn't agree with) to explain his emotional arch.

Also Amber and Eve are poly. I don't think it's as simple as we all want to pick on the poly person and not look at the choice of mono people who choose to stay with poly people.

Except FV isn't special. It is false to say they all don't have an equal platform. Anybody can get on the internet and publish and promote a webpage. And are you forgetting that Eve is co-author of one of those books?

Also, we don't really have Amber's account. It has been edited by Eve, who apparently has an axe to grind. If you do some digging you will find she is not the most mature person either.

But back to Amber. She was a part of that chaos. I don't know what her experience was before FV, but FV had no experience. He definitely jumped in with both feet, something most of us caution against. Especially when mono partners are involved.

I'll reserve comment on Eve until her story comes out.

 

[Tinwen]

I see the inconsistency as well. However, I chalk that up to FV's immaturity.

Celeste and Elaine are both monogamous. FV wanted poly. It's not surprising it didn't work out. I see a group of people who bungled their way through it. Out of that came a website and book that hopefully helps people not make those mistakes.

I think it shows how ingrained in society mono is that the poly person is the one being vilified here. I see the chaos as a result of the incompatibility, if that makes sense.

It does make sense, but I still tend to disagree that incompatibility is all that's going on here. Let's see from newer stories whether anything changed after that mess was cleaned up.

 

[rosephase]

Except FV isn't special. It is false to say they all don't have an equal platform. Anybody can get on the internet and publish and promote a webpage. And are you forgetting that Eve is co-author of one of those books?

You think a blog post from an unknown person has the same platform as one of the most popular writers about polyamory? I think you are kidding yourself. They didn't have an equal platform. FV got to dominate their narratives in the public eye. And that part sucks. Can you imagine having a crappy ex write about your relationship in a way that negated your experience? That used his crappy treatment of you to sell a self aggrandized image of himself as a relationship guru?

 

[vinsanity0]

You think a blog post from an unknown person has the same platform as one of the most popular writers about polyamory? I think you are kidding yourself. They didn't have an equal platform. FV got to dominate their narratives in the public eye. And that part sucks. Can you imagine having a crappy ex write about your relationship in a way that negated your experience? That used his crappy treatment of you to sell a self aggrandized image of himself as a relationship guru?

I don't have to imagine it. It's happening and I ignore it.

As for FV, I see him as just some guy who wrote a book I've never read. But I'm not part of the poly for a living crowd.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

You think a blog post from an unknown person has the same platform as one of the most popular writers about polyamory? I think you are kidding yourself. They didn't have an equal platform. FV got to dominate their narratives in the public eye. And that part sucks. Can you imagine having a crappy ex write about your relationship in a way that negated your experience? That used his crappy treatment of you to sell a self aggrandized image of himself as a relationship guru?

We regularly participate in assisting people to write about their relationships in ways that negate the experience of the other people involved. We even judge and give advice based on their perspectives. We even go as far as to advise people to leave relationships we think are damaging just from what they've told us.

Eve helped FV cement his place as a relationship guru. Her issue is that he has now used their relationship how he used his previous relationships to sell another book (and she won't get money from it), plus it highlights her bad points.

I accept that my exes (and ex metamours) will tell stories that I won't feel depict the situation accurately. They could tell them to friends, to the media (the little media would be vaguely interested on a slow news day), or write them online. To lessen the chances of this, I need to ensure I have healthy relationships.

 

[YouAreHere]

I can't control someone else's narrative; I can only control my own. My ExH will tell people whatever he wants about how/why our relationship ended, and so can I. No, our audiences aren't the same. Yes, this is quite obvious (and lopsided) in the case of Franklin and Celeste/Elaine/Amber. Eve seems to be a bit more on a level playing field.

Still... When a book becomes a "bible" of sorts for a community, someone coming along and going, "I'm this person and this is wrong" is liable to get some level of attention. Humans like toppling gurus - look at the James Frey debacle after his book was presented on Oprah's book club. This is on a different scale, of course, but I don't think human nature changes all that much on this scale.

All my babbling aside, I do think they would have gotten some traction, but that's all speculation and maybe optimism on my part. Regardless, there's traction now.

 

[vinsanity0]

I can't control someone else's narrative; I can only control my own. My ExH will tell people whatever he wants about how/why our relationship ended, and so can I. No, our audiences aren't the same. Yes, this is quite obvious (and lopsided) in the case of Franklin and Celeste/Elaine/Amber. Eve seems to be a bit more on a level playing field.

Still... When a book becomes a "bible" of sorts for a community, someone coming along and going, "I'm this person and this is wrong" is liable to get some level of attention. Humans like toppling gurus - look at the James Frey debacle after his book was presented on Oprah's book club. This is on a different scale, of course, but I don't think human nature changes all that much on this scale.

All my babbling aside, I do think they would have gotten some traction, but that's all speculation and maybe optimism on my part. Regardless, there's traction now.

This is how I feel. If FV is the most famous poly writer, then the people he wrote about are not unknown.

 

[MeeraReed]

Eve helped FV cement his place as a relationship guru. Her issue is that he has now used their relationship how he used his previous relationships to sell another book (and she won't get money from it), plus it highlights her bad points.

FV's claim is that Eve was abusive to him. That's a much stronger claim than that his version "highlights her bad points."

For those who feel that Elaine & Amber & Celeste's stories do NOT describe abusive behavior, merely incompatibility / bad communication / immaturity, etc...do you also feel that Eve was NOT abusive to Franklin?

 

[Maur]

FV's claim is that Eve was abusive to him. That's a much stronger claim than that his version "highlights her bad points."

For those who feel that Elaine & Amber & Celeste's stories do NOT describe abusive behavior, merely incompatibility / bad communication / immaturity, etc...do you also feel that Eve was NOT abusive to Franklin?

There is almost nothing about Eve in TGC. I summed it upthread. Nothing about Eve being abusive... seeing as they were still together at that point. He obviously wrote about her on their MTT blog. Nothing about abuse in either place, nothing about her being in any way bad. Or, actually, much of a story.

I only saw claims about Eve being abusive towards FV in now deleted FB post by FV. I don't remember it well so i can't say for sure but i would say there were stalkish? Don't quote me on that, though, as i said i don't remember it well. Might have been more serious.

There was a huge difference in style (Pod descriptions of abuse are most of the time very vague - except the non-barriered sex and financial stuff, while FV were very specific).

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

FV's claim is that Eve was abusive to him. That's a much stronger claim than that his version "highlights her bad points."

For those who feel that Elaine & Amber & Celeste's stories do NOT describe abusive behavior, merely incompatibility / bad communication / immaturity, etc...do you also feel that Eve was NOT abusive to Franklin?

I have no idea if Eve was abusive to him. I know he's claimed as much and that should be considered but similarly, I haven't heard his story about it all. I haven't heard anything described.


What I will say is that some of the accusations which I feel are more in line with poly incompatibility remind me ofthe poly people I've known who do extraordinary things to control and obstruct other relationships. Usually because they don't have the skills needed to be healthy and happy in a poly relationship without explicit rules that protect their relationship. They aren't the types that can practice egalitarian polyamory and can only be part of a hierarchy where they are the primary partner of the people they want to be. It's fine if they want to be friends with benefits, but if they'd like more and that person isn't avaliable or willing, they'll keep cycling through tactics to get what they want.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

So there are new stories:

https://polyamory-metoo.com/intro-part-2/

First off we have Lauren.

Now what confuses me about this is that she says that they would be silent for months, didn't have sex for years, yet she still refers to him as a partner. I find that odd. I get that some people are on the asexual spectrum and therefore sex isn't what defines their relationships. At least not to the point that it does generally. But the months of silence? She said she found it odd how he'd still be in love with her but why would she go on speaking about someone who she hasn't spoken to for months as a partner? These people are strange. She said "I think we were mostly not talking by 2010 though we were still together on paper."????? What the hell does that mean? I'd say that about an estranged but very much separated married couple. Not 2 people who know each other but live in different states.

She also inadvertently incites a debate about whether one has to know one is in a poly relationship and consent to that or whether they have to individually consent to each relationship their partner has. I think it depends but I'm going to go ahead and say that if your "partner" is someone you barely talk to for months and don't have sex with, you don't have to tell them about every new possibility or budding relationship.

She also says that Amber (previously mentioned) had rigid rules around HPV that she suspects were about controlling his other partners rather than sexual health. So again, we have the women pointing at each other for the shitty relationship they were in.

 

[vinsanity0]

I think Veaux has a much looser definition of partner than most. I suspect this is partly to have the appearance of having lots of partners. However, this also fits in to my understanding of relationship anarchy. I've had friendships like that, where we wouldn't talk for years. Then one of us would pick up the phone and it would feel like we talked just yesterday. And we may have found ourselves in the same place at the same time. And sex may or may not have happened. I don't think either of us would have considered that a partnership.

To say Veaux might be delusional and at the same time refer to him as a partner makes little sense. Given their broad use of the term "gaslighting", that could be viewed as gaslighting him.

Speaking of gaslighting, I was amused by the attempt to get ahead of the observation ( by me and several others in this forum) that Veaux could at times be a shitty partner. Then they present this "evidence" by "partners" who could be construed as shitty as well.

I keep waiting for something to unfold and it's not. I mean, how is it abusive to offer to platonically share a bed? Because it somehow made the person uncomfortable? All of this seems quite petty.

 

[Vicki82]

I keep seeing this stuff pop up in poly groups on Facebook, with victim funds and whatever else, and it just seems ridiculous to me honestly.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Yeah the story about the (now) married lesbians was baffling.

What I think happened is something that happened around here recently. I mean where I live. Not the site. Basically, this guy was found to have concealed his mother's death so he could continue to claim money for her. The mother had mental health problems so was sort of a recluse anyway but now of course we are all coming out with little bits and pieces that might have been clues that she was no longer alive. For example, I was in a casual conversation with him and someone else a couple of years back and he spoke about his mother in the past tense. It did alert me at the time but I put it down to the fact that her mental health issues plus dementia mean she isn't who she used to be. I don't even know for sure if she was dead at the time.

Anyway, I think the lesbian story was simply someone hearing there are allegations and taking through their encounters with him to find anything that could possibly fit the profile.

 

[vinsanity0]

I keep seeing this stuff pop up in poly groups on Facebook, with victim funds and whatever else, and it just seems ridiculous to me honestly.

Victims funds? I do think a lot of people are well intentioned. I really think this snowballed from a couple exes getting together to an avalanche of people unwilling to admit there is a whole lot of nothing there. It's like they did this and now they have to dig in.

 

[vinsanity0]

Yeah the story about the (now) married lesbians was baffling.

What I think happened is something that happened around here recently. I mean where I live. Not the site. Basically, this guy was found to have concealed his mother's death so he could continue to claim money for her. The mother had mental health problems so was sort of a recluse anyway but now of course we are all coming out with little bits and pieces that might have been clues that she was no longer alive. For example, I was in a casual conversation with him and someone else a couple of years back and he spoke about his mother in the past tense. It did alert me at the time but I put it down to the fact that her mental health issues plus dementia mean she isn't who she used to be. I don't even know for sure if she was dead at the time.

Anyway, I think the lesbian story was simply someone hearing there are allegations and taking through their encounters with him to find anything that could possibly fit the profile.

With a lot of prompting from the "journalist".

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

It all sounds more like online relationships than real in-person relationships. I used to be on a forum with this guy who would speak in depth about kinky and poly relationships giving all sorts of advice about how to have healthy KTP relationships. Turned out that he did have a wife he lived with but all his other relationships (and his wife's) were online only.

It's dangerous because people listening to FV and co might assume that they at least have regular contact with everyone they refer to as a partner thus they are having to manage all these relationships every day. That's nothing to do with distance and everything to do with their proximity to your every day life.

 

[vinsanity0]

Nobody should be listening to anybody. I've never thought of Veaux as an expert. He's just a guy who wrote a couple books, self-published at that. Those kind of books should make a person think, not follow directions.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Nobody should be listening to anybody. I've never thought of Veaux as an expert. He's just a guy who wrote a couple books, self-published at that. Those kind of books should make a person think, not follow directions.

The point is that they're written from a perspective of someone who has experience with polyamorous relationships. I think having partners that you don't speak to for months at a time negates your experience significantly.