Guru falls

Tinwen said:
By Luisa, the journalist, probably. There's no signature. But it says
"My work is about setting the record straight", and
"I reached out to Ruby via snail mail, because even today, she remains offline. Eve Rickert says she tried to reach Ruby, too, in the summer of 2018."
I, too, thought yesterday it was Eve.
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Hmm, I thought I read somewhere that it was, but I can't seem to find that reference, so I'll have to go with this for now. ^

Btw., I understand why Ruby's story would be important to mention along with the other three releases from roughly the same time (apparently there are 8 more to come). It could be more factual perhaps.
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I guess the thing that sort of irks me about this is that the pod made such a big deal about how these women all want their stories to be heard in their own words, and how the stories won't be released until the survivors are "ready", and here they are doing the exact opposite of what they said was so important to their process.

Again, whether these stories are true or exaggerated, abuse or bad behavior, I think that there is a greater agenda being pushed here (well I don't *think* this, it has been *stated* by the pod), and the way they are going about it is probably a two steps forward, three steps back type of thing. You know, for the cause.
 
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I only read Elaine's story so far. I don't know how representative it is of the accounts but I didn't find abuse in it. Some miscommunications and some boundaries vs rules (consistent with what FV advocates for).
It also seems that she felt ghosted (it's unclear to me if he was actually ghosted her or if she wanted more interactions than he did) and that she disagrees with his account of their relationship in his book (and it's nice to see her version of the facts, but I wouldn't expect everyone to have the same memories of things that happened 20 years ago. My ex and I had different memories of our relationship ending within days of the events, and I'm fairly certain neither of us was in bad faith).

All in all, it was interesting, and I would have been happy to read her testimony as part of a book in response to the Game Changer, but as part of a complaint of abuse, it seems very out of place.

Maybe with the context of the other accounts this one will make more sense to me?
 
Tonberry said:
All in all, it was interesting, and I would have been happy to read her testimony as part of a book in response to the Game Changer, but as part of a complaint of abuse, it seems very out of place.
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I recommend that kind of reading. These are responses to what has been already told.
 
I haven't read through all of these stories. I don't find it particularly interesting, and what I have gleaned about the drama tells me that it's probably a high percentage perception madness. What I do find interesting is how drawn to this type of drama we all are.

I have never followed Franklin's work; by the time I was aware of his name and work, I already had no interest in reading how-to manuals on having relationships. His name has always had a strangely polarizing effect on people, both online and in my local community. I've seen knock-down drag-out debates over whether he is a messiah or a maniacal demon... the guy has been a big "love him or hate him" topic for many years. In the poly groups local to me, he's personally offended a few vocal members of the community, which means that everyone has heard the story at least once, and you'll hear it again at any event where someone brings up his name.

It's a problem of being well known, and having people go over your every step with a fine tooth comb and magnifying glass. They are absolutely going to find stuff that at least looks incriminating as hell. I shudder to think how the story would look if a dedicated drama seeking group of people went through my past, interviewed every person I've ever been associated with, and offered them a platform to divulge every negative thought they've ever had about me. I mean... that shit will surely be cringe-worthy.

But that's the stuff that turns us on I guess, reality TV with people throwing wine in each others faces, and the joy of getting to watch a "guru fall". It doesn't speak well of us, but that's just the way we are built.
 
As someone who had my narrative eclipsed by a crappy ex... I get wanting to have your version be seen. In my case it happened in a much smaller way. My first poly boyfriend (who I dated for nine months about 13 years ago) made a one man play about our relationship and about using BDSM to "cure" childhood pre-sexualization. He presented this play for years and years. My narrative was: I was 19, got sucked into BDSM way above my head and re-traumatized myself. I felt off and icky the whole relationship and wasn't treated very well as a unicorn in a triad. My ex didn't use my name... but he did use my pet name that another partner gave me. And the worst part was he KEPT asking me to work on his show. I had done a live story telling about our relationship, and I felt he had the right to tell his side as well. But it made me feel awful to read his script. I felt my experince being erased and used to forward his chosen narrative about himself and how amazing he was and how the things he did "saved" me and "cured"... and I worried about people believing these narratives and playing as fast and lose with trauma the way he had done to me. It felt awful... and that was no where near the scale of visibility that "the Game Changer" and "more than two" had. I can't imagine how frustrating and erasing it would be to have a version of his narrative about your relationship be one of the go to foundational texts on how to do polyamory. It must be horrible to watch someone who wasn't great to you be held up as this amazing relationship person and for his self aggrandizing version of your relationship be one of the most popular books about polyamory. I GET wanting to get your own narrative out there. And I support these women doing this.

What I don't get is why this gets the "me too" tag. FV was not sexually harassing people. He wasn't using his power to sexually assault people. He was being a self aggrandizing idiot and a crappy partner. If I could recommend anything to the creators of this documentation... it would be to not use that label. "me too" is not about being a crappy partner, or monopolizing a public narrative... and these things are worth talking about. And these stories are useful to understanding some of the uniquely hard things about polyamory and relationships in general. But they aren't "me too".
 
What I don't get is why this gets the "me too" tag. FV was not sexually harassing people. He wasn't using his power to sexually assault people. He was being a self aggrandizing idiot and a crappy partner. If I could recommend anything to the creators of this documentation... it would be to not use that label. "me too" is not about being a crappy partner, or monopolizing a public narrative... and these things are worth talking about. And these stories are useful to understanding some of the uniquely hard things about polyamory and relationships in general. But they aren't "me too".
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Thank you for articulating this. I have been having a hard time finding the words to express my "irkedness" surrounding this process, and I feel like this helps fill in some of it.
 
ref2018 said:
Thank you for articulating this. I have been having a hard time finding the words to express my "irkedness" surrounding this process, and I feel like this helps fill in some of it.
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Yeah, I've been struggling with it too. But in a way that's really engaged me. I went to the journalist's blog and read up on her thoughts and processes and I respect her approach and her honesty. I feel like everyone involved is well intentioned and wants to address some real pain. But something about it feels really off and I don't know what it is exactly. I know that if FV wasn't a public figure who had shared the stories of others as part of his work... this wouldn't be close to okay.

But I find the work itself fascinating, well articulated and useful. But I also worry that it exploitative, gossipy and popcorn munching drama... about real people.

I don't know... in a lot of ways it reminds me of the feelings I get from good True Crime podcasts. In fact somewhere (maybe on reddit?) The creature mentioned being inspired by the "Escaping NXIVM" podcast and with a desire to create a podcast off of this? (I might be remembering incorrectly). That's an incredible podcast, that also brings up the questions of exploitation and drama... but in that case the crime is huge, clearly abuse and unredeemable. In this case? I don't know... it's all a tricky situation and I do trust that the creators are thinking deeply about these things. And I think that this is useful... but something feels off. And I can't tell if that me not wrapping my head around restorative justice or if there is something being handled poorly. Or both!

Who knows, but it's something I'm paying attention to, thinking about and attempting to articulate. That's about as good as it gets in this situation.
 
I'm waving my fingers in the air and making the Twilight Zone sound

And I can't tell if that me not wrapping my head around restorative justice or if there is something being handled poorly.
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Transformative justice. This pod system is transformative justice. Restorative justice is the regular, conventional, mainstream justice. The justice of the establishment and of the patriarchy.

Freudian slip, I know, I know...:cool:

That said, something is definitely being handled poorly.
 
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ref2018 said:
Transformative justice. This pod system is transformative justice. Restorative justice is the regular, conventional, mainstream justice. The justice of the establishment and of the patriarchy.

Freudian slip, I know, I know...:cool:

That said, something is definitely being handled poorly.
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Ha! I wish we had restorative justice. I've worked in prisons. That isn't the mainstream. The mainstream is retributive justice or punitive justice.

Restorative justice:
is a system of criminal justice which focuses on the rehabilitation of offenders through reconciliation with victims and the community at large.
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Which isn't at all how our legal system works.

I didn't realize that the goal was transformative justice... I don't know nearly enough about that system.
 
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rosephase said:
Ha! I wish we had restorative justice. I've worked in prisons. That isn't the mainstream. The mainstream is retributive justice or punitive justice.

Restorative justice:


Which isn't at all how our legal system works.

I didn't realize that the goal was transformative justice... I don't know nearly enough about that system.
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You are right, I stand corrected. I warned you that I was in the Zone...

I just can't keep track of all the different kinds of justice in my head alone. There are so many of them. My favorite ones are street justice and frontier justice.
 
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ref2018 said:
I especially :rolleyes:'d at the fact that one of the survivor stories ("Ruby") wasn't even a first-hand account, and the individual called "Ruby" has in no way, shape, or form been directly and personally involved in this...process. That entire account was put together by Eve, using anecdotes from blogs, forums, journals, and other social media/correspondence. It says so right in it.
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I think Louisa was the one putting the stories together and doing the edits, not Eve.

That said, hey pod? Get rid of Ruby's story. It really, REALLY hurts your credibility when you do the same things you're trying to stop FV from doing: appropriating someone's story to support your point of view without actually getting their permission to do so (and maybe not having the complete picture).

I have more to say but don't really know how to say it...
Maybe later. Work beckons.
 
YouAreHere said:
I think Louisa was the one putting the stories together and doing the edits, not Eve.

That said, hey pod? Get rid of Ruby's story. It really, REALLY hurts your credibility when you do the same things you're trying to stop FV from doing: appropriating someone's story to support your point of view without actually getting their permission to do so (and maybe not having the complete picture).
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It was probably Luisa about Ruby, but Eve chose passages from her correspondence with Amber.

I agree that presenting Ruby's story is really ironic given what they write in it.
I understand why they want to have it.
But it IS kind of the same thing that they accuse FV of. (It's different in that they can't present much unpublished information.)
Actually, pod, leave it there. It demonstrates the dynamics. It shows just how blurry the lines are. How the "good" ones fuck up too.
 
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As to why me too, some of the accounts _do_ speak of sexual coercion, specifically unwanted group sex...
 
icesong said:
As to why me too, some of the accounts _do_ speak of sexual coercion, specifically unwanted group sex...
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But then they say that they did it because they liked to please him and receive the beneficial reaction to doing something he enjoys. That's the coercion they felt - they wanted the positive, happy FV that comes out after a threesome so they agreed to a threesome to get him.

To me, sexual coercion is when you use fear to get someone to say yes, or at least not stop you from.doing what you want to do by saying no or running away.

I had a friend who would have to do depraved sex acts with an abusive ex partner or he would insinuate that he will be dangerously horny and molest her children. Can you see the difference?
 
SEASONEDpolyAgain said:
To me, sexual coercion is when you use fear to get someone to say yes, or at least not stop you from.doing what you want to do by saying no or running away.

I had a friend who would have to do depraved sex acts with an abusive ex partner or he would insinuate that he will be dangerously horny and molest her children. Can you see the difference?
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I had the same initial feeling about the financial abuse cases. When I've seen it, it's been financial control that makes the victim dependent upon the abuser: they aren't allowed to make their own money, aren't allowed a vehicle, aren't allowed to spend any money outside of what's approved. According to these stories, FV wanted to *be* dependent and taken care of, and NOT work, so it struck me as backwards at first.

However, mashing that guilt button down can definitely be part of emotional abuse (as is the love-bombing cycle), so while I saw worse examples of the financial abuse, the examples of it here and the sexual coercion examples do have elements of emotional abuse.

At least I'm glad some of the stories (other than Ruby's) are now out there. I think the premature announcement left a bad taste in some people's mouths (including mine, TBH) about the pod's intent.
 
YouAreHere said:
I had the same initial feeling about the financial abuse cases. When I've seen it, it's been financial control that makes the victim dependent upon the abuser: they aren't allowed to make their own money, aren't allowed a vehicle, aren't allowed to spend any money outside of what's approved. According to these stories, FV wanted to *be* dependent and taken care of, and NOT work, so it struck me as backwards at first.

However, mashing that guilt button down can definitely be part of emotional abuse (as is the love-bombing cycle), so while I saw worse examples of the financial abuse, the examples of it here and the sexual coercion examples do have elements of emotional abuse.

At least I'm glad some of the stories (other than Ruby's) are now out there. I think the premature announcement left a bad taste in some people's mouths (including mine, TBH) about the pod's intent.
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If I'm so desperate to be a pleasing partner that I compromise my core values and break my own hard limits, I'm the problem. That's not to say someone who exploits that problem is a nice person, but it takes a fair amount of exploitation of my problem to constitute abuse when I'm volunteering these actions.

So if I am the type who tries to buy friendship by paying for meals and drinks when I'm out because I love how my friends respond when I do it, they'd have to be literally begging me to buy them stuff and overtly threatening to abandon our friendship for it to constitute abuse.

If they ask me to pay and I say no and they become very upset/cold/mean, it's on me to realize that these people aren't good friends and leave them behind. If my response is to say "okay then, yes", to avoid rejection from then, I need therapy.
 
Hm, at least we have something more.

Didn't have time to read it all (jesus, beign a corporate slave is soul sucking experience. Why people don't suicide en masse, i don't get it), but browsed a bit and i saw two thing:

1. The financial abuse is laughable, really. It's entitlement, basically. Immaturity on the part of the accusers.

2. Unprotected sex and breaking agreements about it (not in the worst way, aka break but tell before having sex) is very shitty and basically the closest analogue to cheating in poly. So FV is very in the wrong here. Still, not abuse, and that was like 25 or so years ago. Jesus.
 
SEASONEDpolyAgain said:
So if I am the type who tries to buy friendship by paying for meals and drinks when I'm out because I love how my friends respond when I do it, they'd have to be literally begging me to buy them stuff and overtly threatening to abandon our friendship for it to constitute abuse.
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TBH, that's not necessarily abuse. If you're upfront about it, it's basically sugar whatever thing. It starts beign abusive if you lead someone into standart relationship and then add some emotional manipulation into it, power play in the form of guilting and so on. But not from the start.

On a completely side note, after reading a bit more of Amber it seems that all of them wanted a much more 'traditional', commited as it usually happens, relationship while Franklin was more of a dramatic and chaotic and changing person. Which is not a bad thing but these needs are very incompatible. And actually people who are that colorful, so to say, very often draw these stable people to them with their emotionality and richness, and only later both realize it's not working and it won't work, like, ever, because of that basic incompatibility.

Interesting thing that FV does not give that vibe in his writings at all. But i can understand that quite easily. It could happen.
 
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