I always feel like I’m second in line

[Millymollymandy]

Hello, I am totally new to this site, I had to search for somewhere for some advice, as you will probably know the feeling, what do you do, when you have a problem in your poly relationship and your friends are clueless about that issue and find it impossible or even awkward to give you advice.

Briefly as I can, my partner and I have known each other for 20 years, in a variety of ways, friends, lovers, partner, on and off. Both of us have seen others most of the time in the past, but it has only been in the last 3 years we have become an official ‘couple’.

This is complicated by the fact that for the last ten years he has been in a steady relationship with another woman, let’s call her Lisa, who initially was under the impression he would be monogamous with her, despite them spending five of those years in an open relationship, she was under the impression that he had put that all behind them.

When he confessed to her that we had fallen in love (I had gone from best friend to lover) she was outraged to be polite. He told her she had to accept it or they were over. He said he had never promised her monogamy, and didn’t expect it from her either.

Time passed, we worked so hard to help Lisa accept our relationship. It’s been in credibly difficult. I have been super super tolerant while as John says, she gets used to it. But it’s been four years, and despite him constantly telling me otherwise, I still feel like I come second. He spends most weekends with her, and one or two nights with me in the week. He spends around every fourth weekend with me, and I am really struggling now.i love him to bits but he doesn’t seem to understand that spending more time with her than with me hurts me. He says things like ‘but we see so more of each other that we used to when it was a secret (very true) and it’s hard for her, as she did t want this.

I have tolerated this for so long, but now I feel it’s time for him to adjust the amount of time he spends with her a bit further. But whenever I approach the subject he shuts me down. I’m not jealous of Lisa about her place in his heart, but how do I reconcile that he still seems to spend twice as much time with her as with me? She also has access to his entire family, I am in no way considered to be part of that, as she was ‘there first’. All my family have welcomed him with open non judgemental arms, but his mum, although she is aware of me, does not want to meet me.

How do I deal with this? I know love is not measured by the amount of time we spend together, I have a very busy and full social and work life, my own wonderful friends and family, I have nothing to complain about, John loves me I know he does, it’s not in doubt. I just wish I could find the right words to make him see that I miss him, I don’t see as muc( of him as Lisa does, and he doesn’t seem to want to change that.

Any advice anyone can give me please? I really don’t know what to do, I am miserable most of the time at the moment as I don’t know how to resolve this.

Thank you

 

[FallenAngelina]

...she was under the impression that he had put that all behind them. When he confessed to her that we had fallen in love (I had gone from best friend to lover) she was outraged to be polite.

So, to be clear: You and John were having a secret relationship? She is the visible woman in his life and you are the secret "other woman" to most of the world? She knows about you now, but you're still the "other woman?"

This is not about time at all. Any efforts to carve out time to cure this are not going to work. Measuring time spent with her vs. time spent with you is just a hamster wheel going nowhere. Asking John to fix this won't work, either, although plenty of people will be full of advice about how he needs to blah, blah blah in order to make this right. The only person who can change anything here is you - and that's a long, different conversation. The point of my post is to say that asking John to change, waiting for John to change, is a one way ticket to more unhappiness. It never works to try to get other people to change in order to make ourselves feel better about situations. John could adjust his time, at your request, and you will still be the "other woman" in this situation, which is the heart of your dissatisfaction.

Here's the thing: Nobody can treat us like anything that we do not see in ourselves. This isn't about other people doing you wrong, this is about your own self-perception and your own internal story. Other people are always showing us what we have going on inside ourselves, that's why asking them to change never works. If we want a better life on the outside, we have to focus on changing the internal story inside. Only then do we see a better situation unfold. I'm willing to bet good money that this is not the first time that you're "always second in line." What is that story all about for you?

 

[Millymollymandy]

Oh Karen

...I think you may be right. I have never before had the perspective from someone who (am making an assumption here, seeing as you are on here in the first place) May have enough experience to give me an opinion. All along, in then20 yrs I have known him, neither of us have every been single. And yes, i am still somewhat of a secret, although far less so now. Ninety percent of his friends and family know about us, it’s really only Lisa’s children at her request, and johns workmates.

But I choose not to tell everyone in my life either. It’s not always easy to be open, I am committed to who I am and am proud of my individuality, but there are a few people we both realise are better off not knowing.

However, I feel left out, yes. For example, yesterday he took Lisa to see his son, with his other son and they al had a lovely day. I am glad for him, but I also feel jealous, as both his sons are aware of our relationship and are fine about it, in fact they have known me longer than Lisa, we are very close, and yet he still chooses on the rare occasion he makes the trip to see his son, to take Lisa and not me. It hurt, yes.

So I know it is also about this in my heart, you are correct. I was, for such a long time the other woman, now he tells me he values us equally and in support of that he has shown me time and again just that - he is so loving and 5e kindest sweeetest man on earth. I honestly feel no jealously that I can detect over his love for Lisa. He lives with neither of us, we are both welcome in this home and he has been through so much with Lisa refusing to back down and choose her over me, I have no reason to doubt he love or committement and I don’t. I just feel like he gives her more time than me and I wish it were more balanced.

So how do I reconcile that need in myself, while respecting his absolute right to decide who and where he is and when?

I’ve tried so hard to stop feeling this way. I have a very full life, I don’t sit about waiting for him to turn up, I have a wonderful life and when we are together, it’s perfect. He calls me all the time, I tell myself over and over I have nothing to complain about. I think this these feeling started when we spent a lot of time together - the most we ever have, on a wonderful holiday recently in June. Since we returned from that holiday I have definitely missed him more. I think he is in love with the other me, not this me, how did I become so needy?

I don’t feel like I’m making much sense. Probably because this is the first time I have spoken so honestly about how I’m feeling.

 

[FallenAngelina]

I have never before had the perspective from someone who (am making an assumption here, seeing as you are on here in the first place) May have enough experience to give me an opinion.

I have more experience in feeling second than I'd care to - although I think that life gives us exactly the experience that we need until we figure out whatever need to figure out. I finally started putting it all together when I had an incredible poly BF and metamor and still I had the feelings that you describe. Clearly, it was not them, it was me. When finally there was nobody else's shortcoming to blame, I could see that the issue was mine.

However, I feel left out, yes.

It can be life changing to recognize that feeling left out can only happen when we are concerned with being left out. Nobody on earth can leave us out if we are at ease about ourselves. The feeling of needing to be included comes from a conflict within ourselves that only we can address. This is part of our story, the feeling of not being chosen, and we can never change it by asking people to include us. We have to change our own story before others can show us how we've changed. When we no longer feel that gripping need to be included (due to our unresolved internal conflict) we find that we are indeed included or simply don't notice when we are not.

So how do I reconcile that need in myself, while respecting his absolute right to decide who and where he is and when?

This is a question for every one of us. How do we live in peace and contentment while allowing others to be who they are, allowing them to come and go as they choose? I now work on this question every single day, for living in emotional safety from it was killing my spirit. I can say that I have come a long way since I chose to take this question head on and I've dropped a lot of baggage a few train stops ago. Getting somewhere with this question takes a whole lot more than a few flicks of advice, it takes awareness, education and lots of practice. I have my methods of practice. There are many.

I think this these feeling started when we spent a lot of time together - the most we ever have, on a wonderful holiday recently in June. Since we returned from that holiday I have definitely missed him more.

Sounds like you had him all to yourself and it felt good. It felt great, in fact. You loved it. Yes?

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm sorry you hurt.

I mean this kindly, ok? I'm not trying to be mean.

Why do you and Lisa put up with this? What's so great about this guy and this wonky sounding V?

I could be wrong but in your post it sounds like...

This is complicated by the fact that for the last ten years he has been in a steady relationship with another woman, let’s call her Lisa, who initially was under the impression he would be monogamous with her, despite them spending five of those years in an open relationship, she was under the impression that he had put that all behind them.

He says things like ‘but we see so more of each other that we used to when it was a secret (very true) and it’s hard for her, as she did t want this.

He spent 10 years in a steady relationship with Lisa, and led her to believe he was done with Open somehow. Even though he was seeing other people.

It's not "Open relationship" if she doesn't know it's happening. It's misleading her and/or cheating if he promised he was done with Open.

So you've been the secret Other Woman in some fashion.

When he confessed to her that we had fallen in love (I had gone from best friend to lover) she was outraged to be polite.

Did you expect different? She's not gonna be thrilled.

He told her she had to accept it or they were over. He said he had never promised her monogamy, and didn’t expect it from her either.

Wow, he's telling her to just lump it or get out? That sounds kinda cold.

What DID he promise her? Respect? Basic polite? Not leading her on? Not cheating on agreements?

Is that how he got her to stay on his string? Dangling monogamy? While for you he dangles "when Lisa's better we can have more time..." or something?

I have been super super tolerant while as John says, she gets used to it.

Why are you being so tolerant for 4 years? When from the sound of it neither you nor Lisa love this arrangement? How many more years before she "gets used to it?" And SHOULD she even get used to John treating her like this? I would say neither one of you should be used to this. It's crap sounding.

As for John? He doesn't have to change. He's got two women who will put up with ugh for 4 years and still keep sticking around.

But it’s been four years, and despite him constantly telling me otherwise, I still feel like I come second. He spends most weekends with her, and one or two nights with me in the week. He spends around every fourth weekend with me, and I am really struggling now.i love him to bits but he doesn’t seem to understand that spending more time with her than with me hurts me.

So he says one thing, and does another. You DO come second. He does whatever he wants and both you and Lisa have to lump it. He comes first.

I have tolerated this for so long, but now I feel it’s time for him to adjust the amount of time he spends with her a bit further.

How much time do you have to clock here before you decide you are past your limit of tolerance?

And you decide you are done waiting on John to change things?

You decide YOU will change them instead?

But whenever I approach the subject he shuts me down.

Is that treating YOU kindly?

He kinda sounds like he's a "my way or the highway" kinda dude and he's not very nice to either you or Lisa.

how do I reconcile that he still seems to spend twice as much time with her as with me? She also has access to his entire family, I am in no way considered to be part of that, as she was ‘there first’. All my family have welcomed him with open non judgemental arms, but his mum, although she is aware of me, does not want to meet me.

Sounds like being out to family and participating in family things matters to you. You have shared your family with him and he doesn't share his with you.

You can either let the want to do family things with your partner's family go. Or accept you aren't getting it from John and go seek a partner who can ACTUALLY give you what you want. Nice treatment, open relationship, enough time spent together, and family involvement.

John doesn't make the cut. Not even for "open relationship" since it started as a cheating affair behind Lisa's back.

You know you deserve better treatment than that right?

How do I deal with this? I know love is not measured by the amount of time we spend together, I have a very busy and full social and work life, my own wonderful friends and family, I have nothing to complain about, John loves me I know he does, it’s not in doubt. I just wish I could find the right words to make him see that I miss him, I don’t see as muc( of him as Lisa does, and he doesn’t seem to want to change that.

Well, one way could be...

• You accept that love alone is not enough for deep compatibility in relationships.
  
• You accept it's been 4 years. PLENTY of time to make changes and adjustments.
  
• You accept this is all you are gonna get here. Changes unlikely.
  
• Then you decide if that is enough for you or not. Sounds like not.
  
• You make your peace with that.
  
• You decide you are done. You decide to move on.

Any advice anyone can give me please? I really don’t know what to do, I am miserable most of the time at the moment as I don’t know how to resolve this.

You don't sound happy in this relationship.

You may have to stop thinking "How do I get John to change so I can stop being miserable" and start thinking "Alright. This is all I am ever gonna get here. And it makes me miserable. I am the boss of how I spent my time. Is this how I want to keep spending it? Frustrated and in misery? Maybe I need to make changes myself and walk away" instead.

I wonder if deep down you know this isn't gonna work, and you are in the bargaining stage of grief? Like telling yourself it might still work if only he did X? Not at full acceptance that this is going nowhere.

The choices are (stay and be miserable with no end in sight) or (break up and be sad for a while and then get better and start new). Both have some stink.

So when all choices stink, you pick the one that stinks the least.

If I were you, I would end it and resolve never again to be the "secret woman."

If the person isn't already clear with existing partners about how they practice Open? They are not willing to bring you around friends and family and give you a place in their life when you really value those things? Skip it.

Again, I'm very sorry you are in pain.

Galagirl

 

[GalaGirl]

He told her she had to accept it or they were over. He said he had never promised her monogamy, and didn’t expect it from her either.

Remember this? Do you not wonder why they aren't over?

He lives with neither of us, we are both welcome in this home and he has been through so much with Lisa refusing to back down and choose her over me, I have no reason to doubt he love or committement and I don’t. I just feel like he gives her more time than me and I wish it were more balanced.

If she keeps asking him to make a decision once and for all? She's clearly very unhappy in this wonky V. And yet... John still won't cut her loose even though he said that is what would happen. Don't you wonder why he lets it drag on?

How is John letting it drag on John being kind to her?

If he is saying that HE has been through "so much with Lisa" -- again... why not cut her loose? Then there's no more stuff to get through.

Or does he frame it as "she refuses to back down" to you to get pity points out of you? So he can keep getting stuff from her AND from you?

Remember he doesn't have to be doing this like this. He's the one who chose to cheat on his agreements with her. Instead he could have just ended it and not deceived in the first place. Or having confessed to cheating with you and seen that she's not into this new V model he's thrust upon her? He could be merciful and cut her loose rather than let her hang about dragging on and on for YEARS. It's mean of him to let her go on like that.

I don't think it's nice for him to make her sound like "the meanie" and him like "poor lil' ol me." This situation didn't come from the sky.

I don't think it is nice for him to let things drag on and on for years with you either -- still keeping you secret-ish.

Is he the type who LIKES two people "fighting" over him for the ego strokes? He tells her one thing to keep her on the string and tells you another?

Cuz after FOUR years, neither you nor Lisa has said "I've had enough of this wonky. This is for the birds. I'm out." You both keep going. Making some noise at John to change things, but not doing anything to change it yourselves. The wonky continues. Why is John the boss of all?

And why WOULD he change anything he's doing? Maybe it works for him just how it is and this is how he likes it?

I keep wondering how come you and Lisa don't treat YOURSELVES better? If both of you are very unhappy participating here like this? Stop participating.

I have no reason to doubt he love or committement and I don’t. I just feel like he gives her more time than me and I wish it were more balanced.

You DO have reason to doubt. This isn't a "feeling."

You are actually experiencing "John doesn't spend enough time with me for me to feel happy participating in this relationship. And it isn't gonna change any. How does this demonstrate loving commitment to me in the ways I value? It doesn't."

In the end it doesn't matter if he spends it with Lisa or bowling or whatever. The bottom line is that he doesn't spend enough time with you. You value that, and he won't or cannot give it. And you would like a place in his life. You value that. And he won't or cannot give it.

You guys don't actually sound compatible.

So how do I reconcile that need in myself, while respecting his absolute right to decide who and where he is and when?

If you need more time with a partner and a place in their life? Not to be a secret? And you are miserable participating here like this? Could accept John might not be the right partner for you. Love is not enough.

You could respect YOUR absolute right to decide who and where YOU are and when. Could decide not to be here any more. Then he can be him over there. You can be you over here. And you let what doesn't work go -- all this wonky relating.

If spending it with him in Misery Town doesn't work? YOU decide to stop visiting this town. Plain get off the bus. Rather than keep riding it to Misery Town while hoping the bus driver takes another route. Don't subsume yourself to a relationship.

I’ve tried so hard to stop feeling this way.

Why? When a person puts their hand on a hot stove and they feel hurt? They don't try to stop feeling the hurt in order to keep the hand on the stove. They get their hand off.

You almost sound like one of those people who go "I know this hurts me, but I loooove him."

You also have to love yourself. Be able to say "I love you, but not even for you will I do stuff that hurts me." If participating here is hurting you? Stop.

I think he is in love with the other me, not this me, how did I become so needy?

You aren't being needy. You have some basic relationship needs that are not being met here.

• Be heard when you bring concerns up. (Rather than shutting you down)
• You want to stop being "secret cheating affair" woman. You want to practice actually Open or Poly and be one of his GFs. You would like to start doing this by...
  • Spending more time with you in the "open" rather than still half in "secret" on the edges of his life
  • Bring you around his family and friends more. You have already brought him around your people.

All that sounds reasonable to me.

Is he's the one telling you that you are "needy?" Is that how he shuts things down while still keeping you on the string?

He calls me all the time, I tell myself over and over I have nothing to complain about.

Several times in your posts you try to talk yourself out of your feelings.

Why do you do that?

I think you DO have something to complain about.

• You are tired of being a secret cheating affair. You want to live different.
• You don't get enough time with your partner.
• He doesn't include you in family things.
• It's been 4 years, and it's starting to feel like "forever on the side waiting."
• It might be getting hard to keep admiring John when he treats you this way and you observe him treating Lisa that way.

I don’t feel like I’m making much sense. Probably because this is the first time I have spoken so honestly about how I’m feeling.

Why is this the first time you are emotionally honest with your own self?

You seem to make sense to me. Like you are tired of things being how they are and wish John would change them. But he isn't. And you don't want to leave but are becoming increasingly aware that might be the only way actual changes will happen. You don't love the idea of ending it with him. But you also don't love being miserable.

So you feel stuck with internal conflict.

I feel really bad for you. It's not a fun place to be in.

Yet YOU are the one who ultimately decides where you want to be. You are the one who decides your "staying-ness."

I think you could make this a whole lot easier on you. Put loving John to the side for a moment.

No significant changes in 4 years? NOT gonna change any then.

And if staying here with no changes makes you miserable? You are responsible for getting you out of the misery. Stop being here.

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You only get the one.

I hope things get better for you.

Galagirl

 

[FallenAngelina]

You aren't being needy. You have some basic relationship needs that are not being met here.

Yup.

Needy people are just people who aren't respecting their own needs. People who know what they value and solidly stand by it never get into "needy" territory. Feeling needy has a simple fix: Know what you need and don't equivocate. You're asking John to fulfill a need that you're not solid about: putting yourself first and wanting what you want.

 

[Polysnow]

Get out of that situation.

That's no way to live. I know you love said person, but being their second and being treated like a dirty little secret that's hiding in plain sight is going to bring you pain and more of it.

That stuff scars you. Trust me on this one. There is better out there and the others right, you do deserve better and it's worth the journey to get of it.

 

[WhatHappened]

Do I understand this correctly?

You and John had a secret affair. He cheated on her. You gladly, willingly took part in a man cheating on his long term partner and lying to her.

When she found out, the two of you were ever so wonderful about 'helping her' 'accept' that he'd cheated on her, was going back on his agreement to monogamy, and she could agree or take a hike.

You now expect him to take more time away from his long term girlfriend on whom he cheated.

You now expect John's mother to treat you, the woman who took part in cheating on her nearly daughter in law of ten years, like a beloved part of her family.

And in the aftermath of John cheating on Lisa with you and telling her like it or leave it, I'm going to keep sleeping with and spending time with another woman--you sympathize that JOHN has 'put up with so much' from HER.

And now you're unhappy that you feel second and lower priority.

I have all of that correct?

My best advice is walk away from the circus if you don't like the monkeys.

 

[kdt26417]

Hello Millymollymandy,

I kind of get the impression that you might feel better if John would spend every *other* weekend with you. Rather than every fourth weekend. So perhaps you could say something like, "John, I miss you when you are away, and would like to spend more time with you. Could you spend every other weekend with me? at least two weekends every month?" I get the impression that you are not yet ready to break up with John, so that is why I suggest that. Ask him that, and see what he says. Don't mention Lisa, just ask for that extra weekend each month.

Hopefully that helps,
Sincerely,
Kevin T.