Cheating
- Thread starter ElMango
- Start date
The asexual partner may well know or strongly suspect their partner is cheating, and choose to turn a blind eye to the fact or suspicion, to maintain their equilibrium in the relationship! You're acting like they're suffering. They may be secretly glad their spouse has gone outside the marriage for sex.
Of course, they may not. But we can't assume they always will be. It's just not that black and white. Maybe they're both cheating and are in an undeclared open marriage. Their choice. No reason to break up unless they want to.
Like me, when I found out my ex h had visited a strip club a few times. (And who knows, maybe he did other stuff he never did confess!) It didn't affect my comfort at all. In fact, it took pressure off me. I didn't want to divorce. I liked our home and having it as a secure place to raise the kids. We had a lovely big house. We had lots of pets. I had a wonderful garden I'd put a lot of work into. I liked our neighborhood. Etc., etc. Whether their father was having a little excitement on the side or not didn't matter one bit to me. I was in fact, glad.
dingedheart
Well-known member
Interesting thread...I especially like the colorful examples of why people cheat.
To me it is black and white and simple. Character! It’s making a vow or agreement and honoring it. All the excuses and bullshit come down to taking a loss or trying to avoid taking a loss. What’s society’s role in this ....that lack of honor or moral compass. “ it’s better to beg forgiveness than ask permission”
“Is it still cheating if you don’t get caught”, etc etc etc
Where’s the line. What agreements or rules does one follow and which ones can be blown off if you have a good enough reason ( a least in your head ) ??
I just found out this guy I have working for me is getting divorced and I don’t want to get involved over than I’m sorry that’s never pleasant, etc. BUT I heard through the grapevine that he went of the rails gambling and racked up 7-10 grand or more in debt. Funny how he never wants to work overtime for me either but whatever. How did patriarchal society cause this ?? Wouldn’t this be the same as cheating/ an affair. ??
To me it is black and white and simple. Character! It’s making a vow or agreement and honoring it. All the excuses and bullshit come down to taking a loss or trying to avoid taking a loss. What’s society’s role in this ....that lack of honor or moral compass. “ it’s better to beg forgiveness than ask permission”
“Is it still cheating if you don’t get caught”, etc etc etc
Where’s the line. What agreements or rules does one follow and which ones can be blown off if you have a good enough reason ( a least in your head ) ??
I just found out this guy I have working for me is getting divorced and I don’t want to get involved over than I’m sorry that’s never pleasant, etc. BUT I heard through the grapevine that he went of the rails gambling and racked up 7-10 grand or more in debt. Funny how he never wants to work overtime for me either but whatever. How did patriarchal society cause this ?? Wouldn’t this be the same as cheating/ an affair. ??
SlowPoly
Active member
I used to feel pretty black and white about cheating, but now I think it’s too broad a class of behaviors within various circumstances to be that binary about it. There are different sources and degrees of harm, and sometimes black and white thinking leads to conclusions that increase harm all around.
Even if you consider each case, maybe you never find a case where cheating seemed better than not cheating. I’d still think it’s worth considering the specifics rather than being fundamentalist about it. Not deciding for anyone else, but that’s my approach.
That said, I can’t imagine the specifics ever being such that I’d choose to cheat or be involved with a cheater. I’m too drama averse.
Even if you consider each case, maybe you never find a case where cheating seemed better than not cheating. I’d still think it’s worth considering the specifics rather than being fundamentalist about it. Not deciding for anyone else, but that’s my approach.
That said, I can’t imagine the specifics ever being such that I’d choose to cheat or be involved with a cheater. I’m too drama averse.
People do cheat for a number of reasons and not all those people are in the scenario of having a partner who has lost interest in sex.
But for some, they cheat when they have an unmet need in the relationship for intimacy of some form (sexual, emotional, intellectual) and are unable to communicate with their [spouse] to resolve it. It is not necessarily that person's fault. Sure, separation may be the more ethical choice, but not always practical.
As for that vow or agreement, then I'd quite happily argue that the agreement is already broken if something that was once a part of the relationship no longer is. If the person who cut off the intimacy is not prepared to negotiate an alternative, then they are the one causing harm.
But for some, they cheat when they have an unmet need in the relationship for intimacy of some form (sexual, emotional, intellectual) and are unable to communicate with their [spouse] to resolve it. It is not necessarily that person's fault. Sure, separation may be the more ethical choice, but not always practical.
As for that vow or agreement, then I'd quite happily argue that the agreement is already broken if something that was once a part of the relationship no longer is. If the person who cut off the intimacy is not prepared to negotiate an alternative, then they are the one causing harm.
dingedheart
Well-known member
What does too broad of a class of behaviors mean ??
I’m not sure what you mean by sources and degrees of harm could you give me an example ? And what difference does that make ?
Yes, and if it's valid for the people involved to choose to take a loss or not, who am I to judge?
Society's role so far has been to allow adultery as grounds for divorce. Or, as in the case of Jewish law, allow lack of sexual satisfaction as a reason a woman can file for divorce. This might assume her husband has multiple wives, by the way, and is not taking good care of everyone's sexual needs (probably more interested in banging the new hot young wife than another wife he's tired of). A little bone to throw at a woman under strict patriarchal rule, invented by rabbis, it is not Biblical. By the way, divorce in olden days was pretty much a death sentence for a woman and her children. She'd be seen as tainted goods, wouldn't be able to find a new husband, and would have very little ability to support herself. And the husband would probably be happy to get rid of her anyway.
Those are good questions, and that is why polyamory now exists. I am polyamorous. I am not a cheater. I am talking more about what to do if you're not aware polyamory exists, or one partner just can't wrap their head around the concept, finding it disgusting and freaking the hell out (like my friend's wife, for example).
No one is talking about a gambling addiction being caused by the patriarchy. No, I don't think it's the "same thing" as an affair. Why do you?
There are many reasons to cheat. Sexual dissatisfaction of course, but other intimacy problems as well. Then, there are many degrees of what people might consider cheating. Some people think masturbation of any kind is cheating. Some allow masturbation if you only think of your married partner, and never of another person, and never use pornography. Some people don't think kissing is cheating. Some people do not consider oral or digital stimulation "sex." Some might consider going dancing and touching a partner other than your spouse or regular partner sexual and cheating. Dancing can be like sex in public, while wearing (a bit of) clothing. Some people might never go to lunch with a colleague of the opposite sex, fearing that it's actually cheating to do so, or at least too much of a temptation. These are just a few examples; I'm sure there are 1000 more.
OK, so you don't judge. You just want to understand these other people better?
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FallenAngelina
Well-known member
This is a sadly overused and useless term. It simply means, "You're not doing what I think is right to do."
My big stumbling block here is that living your life in a deceptive manner isn't any better than your other options, in my opinion. I don't see how it's any better for a relationship or for the individuals involved.
Cheating isn't a solution; it just creates other problems. It causes even more damage to the relationship between the sexual partner and the one who doesn't want sex. It erodes trust. It creates a wall where the partners go for the easiest route to getting their needs met and no longer communicate.
I used to read on a cheaters' forum, because I enjoy seeing perspectives from different people. So many of them said that once you slow down on the communication, there just is no way back to reconnecting and reclaiming the marriage. Once you've added in lies and deliberate deceit, the marriage will never again be the same.
So even if you view a cheater as a victim, what they are doing is taking steps to further ensure that their relationship will never be solid, whole, emotionally intimate. Yes, there is damage already from the actions of the nonsexual partner, but this will sound a death knell.
At least a good chunk of us know what it's like to live life in the closet, to feel that we can't be our authentic selves. Deliberately choosing more of this? I can't see how anyone who looks beyond the short term can really think that ultimately, this will be the best move for them. Even if you were looking at it in a purely selfish light of getting their needs met, etc- living that way... they deserve better than that. Both partners do.
And that's why I truly believe the best option is to throw it back on the nonsexual partner by saying, this is what I need, and I'm going to do this. What you do at this point is up to you. I won't be inauthentic to myself for anyone, because the price is too high. Then it will be up to the partner who is originally causing the relationship damage to decide if it's worth it to them to leave. Boundaries, not rules, right?
Cheating isn't a solution; it just creates other problems. It causes even more damage to the relationship between the sexual partner and the one who doesn't want sex. It erodes trust. It creates a wall where the partners go for the easiest route to getting their needs met and no longer communicate.
I used to read on a cheaters' forum, because I enjoy seeing perspectives from different people. So many of them said that once you slow down on the communication, there just is no way back to reconnecting and reclaiming the marriage. Once you've added in lies and deliberate deceit, the marriage will never again be the same.
So even if you view a cheater as a victim, what they are doing is taking steps to further ensure that their relationship will never be solid, whole, emotionally intimate. Yes, there is damage already from the actions of the nonsexual partner, but this will sound a death knell.
At least a good chunk of us know what it's like to live life in the closet, to feel that we can't be our authentic selves. Deliberately choosing more of this? I can't see how anyone who looks beyond the short term can really think that ultimately, this will be the best move for them. Even if you were looking at it in a purely selfish light of getting their needs met, etc- living that way... they deserve better than that. Both partners do.
And that's why I truly believe the best option is to throw it back on the nonsexual partner by saying, this is what I need, and I'm going to do this. What you do at this point is up to you. I won't be inauthentic to myself for anyone, because the price is too high. Then it will be up to the partner who is originally causing the relationship damage to decide if it's worth it to them to leave. Boundaries, not rules, right?
This so much. It applies even for emotional distance and neglect too
Again, this. I've spent almost my whole life never fully out of the closet for sexuality and now poly; why someone would want that for themselves is beyond me.
In the end, even if you take morals out of it, it's not a choice that makes sense to me save for a short term gain; an impulse.
It's a slap in the face. I haven't read on cheater's forums, but I've read plenty of novels, watched plenty of TV and movies where cheating happens.
Why do you think or feel that romantic and sexual intimacy counts as THE number one priority in everyone's life, ahead of financial security, children being fed and clothed and having, say, a better school district, ahead of social status, extended family support, etc., etc., ad infinitum?
I didn't break up my family just because of romantic and sexual lack of full intimacy and satisfaction. It was one factor. And I am hella grateful my ex h didn't dump me when our kids were small and needy and I was exhausted! And things were no better when we tried polyamory and he was all lalala over his new gf and not trying to hide it, and taking advantage of our "Openness" to dally with his gf so often, he neglected our children and our home and car maintenance. (He never did housework, but he stopped doing the guy stuff with power tools and screwdrivers and all that.) Ironically, when he was "cheating" by going to strip clubs, it probably made him feel guilty and then put MORE effort into the house and kids, not less. Ha.
My friend with the asexual wife is so far choosing to put every other factor of compatibility ahead of his sexual comfort. Many people do and millions have done, for 4000 years (since the patriarchy began to take hold). Women just haven't had the power to simply leave a guy who was a cheater. Men have until recently, had the privilege to merely marry multiple wives to get the sexual variety humans are wired to desire. Men have also seen their role as "provider" as too important to beleaguer or threaten their wife with abandonment just because her sex drive was lower than his.
But, seeing the POV from the side of the cheater vs works of fiction is more accurate, no?
Then, if everything else is so important, why risk it by cheating?
I feel like my point at least is being missed.
If all of this is so important, why would you risk it, and frankly disrespect it, by breaking your agreement?
And, if you consider the agreement already broken via, for example, sexual issues, why not bring that up and say something and state intentions rather than cheating?
Why be dishonest?
Since cheating almost always damages relationships MORE, why risk damaging something already hurting?
Why put your emotional and physical and mental energies into dishonesty, rather than putting it into being a better spouse, parent, handyperson, gardener, masturbater...?
Cheating isn't an inherently mono thing; you can cheat in poly relationships too. So...why do it? If we break it down to the fact that cheating isn't an inherently mono problem...and if you have multiple partners, you have different streams of sex and romance coming in, why cheat?
Sources? Men having been leaving women high and dry with or without kids, divorce or no divorce, for hundreds of years.
vinsanity0
Active member
Some things to consider:
Not all people cheat because there is a problem with their relationship. That's just feeding into the faulty assumption that humans are a monogamous animal. Some people just like a little variety once in awhile, or the little charge of NRE.
Not all people view sex as a big deal. For them having sex on the side is not a big deal. It's not like they are going to leave their partner. They just want to have a little fun.
All this is different from someone who is cheating in order to shop for a new partner.
In my brand of poly there is no such thing as cheating.
FallenAngelina
Well-known member
Because there's likely little room for honesty. Honesty would incur the wrath of the spouse and bring down their entire world. People usually choose dishonesty, not because they are weak, but because they have assessed their situation to have little room for honesty. Fear of losing everything usually drives the dishonesty.
Every cheater I've ever known (and I've known many - you'd be very surprised who is cheating) chooses cheating to preserve and protect the nesting relationship.
dingedheart
Well-known member
First of all I have no idea if my employee has a gambling addiction or he dumb and then kept trying to win it back and plowed a big hole. As an ex commodities trader I know how easy that is to do. Here’s why I think they’re similar. 1) selfish in the moment act that they know will be met with profound disapproval or wrath. 2) both carry damaging risks for the spouses and or family that are out weighed by the personal satisfaction of the dishonest spouse.
I think in both situations or all these situations it’s important to to factor in what the relative expectation or expectations are for a partner or spouse. If you know going in that the big deal breaker is cheating or being reckless and stupid with the rent money then if those thrill you seek seem to override a previous commitment you need to adjust those commitments.
Im sure you’re right everyone has reasons for cheating ...just like those who embezzle and those who cheat on their taxes.
Degrees of what people might consider cheating: Yup ...lots of fucked up people out there ..BBBUT once again the cheater knew what the parameters of “ what cheating” is to his or her spouse and agreed to that.
If honesty and integrity are subjective depending on the reasons how big a deal is violating the safe sex agreements ?? Or is that subjective too depending on the reasons. I think people view that one pretty black and white and I wonder why..
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vinsanity0
Active member
Violating safe sex agreements can have physical ramifications. Gambling away the rent money has economical ramifications, not the least of which is losing your place to live. Cheating on a spouse has no real physical ramifications, other than how the spouse reacts.
My first wife cheated on me. I didn't die from it. Looking back, it shouldn't have been a big deal. I was mostly pissed because I had turned down many chances to cheat. So I made a big deal of it. Knowing what I know now, I should have just suggested an open marriage of some form.
Also looking back, it wouldn't have killed me to not know. I just happened to notice some strange behavior. A lot of the harm done by cheating is harm to the ego.
My first wife cheated on me. I didn't die from it. Looking back, it shouldn't have been a big deal. I was mostly pissed because I had turned down many chances to cheat. So I made a big deal of it. Knowing what I know now, I should have just suggested an open marriage of some form.
Also looking back, it wouldn't have killed me to not know. I just happened to notice some strange behavior. A lot of the harm done by cheating is harm to the ego.
FallenAngelina
Well-known member
I'd say that most people don't outright agree to that, they go along with that. It's usually not clear at all between partners what exactly constitutes cheating. Most people adopt the assumed position, which is monogamy and "forsaking all others." I don't know any couples other than open relationship couples who sit down and draw out agreements about the parameters of the relationship. Most people just have a general idea that they're supposed to stick to the agreement of fidelity - the particulars to be figured out as problems arise - which is a bassackwards way to do it, but that's how most people do it. I don't know one monogamous couple that ever sat down and drew out specific behavior agreements at the outset of the relationship and then signed the figurative contract. Poly people are the only people I know who draw up such specific agreements.
Therefor, when it comes to cheating, there's lots of wiggle room. How many times have we heard it said, "We didn't mean to, it just happened!"? With cheating, often times there's a general malaise or dissatisfaction or boredom about the nesting relationship and then things with another just snowball. I don't see that many people set out on a cheating relationship with much thought about agreements other than the awareness that you're not supposed to cheat. What that specifically means is something you usually find out after you've stepped on a few trip wires.
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I'm not assuming all people are mono, I am saying that is what they agreed to. Mono is pretty black and white. If they want these things, why have deception if they have no relationship problems?
Again, then why not discuss this? Why agree to a mono relationship if this is your POV?
That is totally valid; but in a mono relationship cheating is absolutely possible and a thing.
Agreed. I also wonder why. I also wonder why someone would not get clarification (assuming the relationship was not abusive) from their spouse?
When my husband and I were mono (for the first 7.5 years of our 10.5 year relationship), we actually did this. We were 16 and 17. We wanted to know what the other considered cheating as to avoid it by accident.
This is where My confusion really sets in.
On one hand, you say the reason people lie about their feelings, and then act on their wants without a discussion or at least notification (ergo, cheat) is because their partner leaves very little room for honesty, would occur wrath of their partner and destroy the relationship. This implies that the relationship is unhealthy in terms of being able to communicate effectively at the very least, and is abusive at the very worst. Either way, it is a relationship that needs work.
So...why would someone want to preserve this relationship unless they have been actively conditioned/blackmailed/abused into having to?
vinsanity0
Active member
Mango, you live in a black and white world. Most of us live in the grey.