Cheating

WhatHappened said:
For all those defending...
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I see what you did there.

...I mean explaining, cheating -- are you okay with your spouse or partner lying to you and deceiving you?

And I ask again, since nobody has answered: in what other part of your life are you willing to 'explain' breaking an agreement, lying to, and deceiving someone? In business? In your rental or mortgage agreement? In your job terms? In your loan application? In what you tell say about yourself on a dating site? In signed contracts with the guy who's remodeling your home for you?

In what part of your life are you willing to accept someone else breaking the terms of their agreement with you, without telling you?
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No one has said here that they are personally cheating, or fine with cheating, for themselves. I am not sure why you assume that. Oh yeah, it's because you still think we are all "defending" cheating.

You are seeming to assume, for those who do cheat, it's just the tip of the iceberg of a generally dishonest life.

I have known people who have had affairs. They are not generally dishonest people. They are perfectly moral ethical people. They just are hampered by our culture's mononormativity. Just that.

Of course, there are people who cheat on their partners or spouses who are also dicks across the board. Like Trump.
 
Mags, were you part of your friend cheating on his wife?

I repeat, when someone calls cheaters 'victims,' that is, by any logic, defending cheating.

Yes, I do believe that if one lies and deceives in one corner of their lives, they are more likely to lie/deceive in other areas of their lives. If someone is having an affair, yes, they are by definition, dishonest. They are being dishonest with their spouse. Lying to your spouse is by definition not morally ethical.

Isn't the existence of a poly forum PROOF that there is an alternative to lying and cheating? Isn't the existence of this forum PROOF that those people could instead go to their spouse and say, "There's a problem here..." or "I want to have a relationship with someone and still stay with you."

We ALL have the option of being upfront with our spouses.

One of the things that attracted me to this forum years ago when I joined was the push for HONESTY and OPEN COMMUNICATION. To lie to a spouse, to have an affair behind a spouse's back, is the antithesis of honesty and open communication.
 
WhatHappened said:
Isn't the existence of this forum PROOF that those people could instead go to their spouse and say, "There's a problem here..." or "I want to have a relationship with someone and still stay with you."
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This is Poly Bubble thinking. 95% of the population has no idea that polyamory exists and even fewer see it as a viable option given the overwhelming dominance of the social value on monogamy. This statement is like telling all of history to just get some courage already, ignore the king and form a republic. Easy. We did it with just a little "communication," what was your problem?



WhatHappened said:
Yes, I do believe that if one lies and deceives in one corner of their lives, they are more likely to lie/deceive in other areas of their lives. ....
We ALL have the option of being upfront with our spouses.
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What would you say about the overwhelming majority of polyamorous people who are not out in their workplaces, their communities or even to their families? Would you say that they ALL have the option of being upfront with the people in their lives? Would you say that because they lie and deceive in one corner of their lives, they are more likely to lie/deceive in other areas of their lives?



WhatHappened said:
This is not the poly board I knew seven years ago when I joined, and that makes me sad. That the members here stood so strongly by honesty and open communication was one of the things that attracted me to this forum.
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First of all, this thread is not the entire forum. This is a discussion among a tiny handful of members and it's a discussion that we've never had before. We're about six or seven people sitting around discussing the topic, we're not a poly politburo setting policy for the rest of the poly world. If you're saddened by people who are willing to look deeper than rules and prioritize understanding over judgement of human relationships, then I don't know what to tell you. Life is going to be awfully sad for you. Personally, I am thrilled to see some open minds here where there has been knee-jerk shunning in the past. What you call "standing strongly" is nothing but mob rule. I am happily here because this forum draws individuals, individual perspectives, diverse ways of looking at life and articulate discussion. Isn't polyamory founded on the very values of freedom and diversity? Yes, honesty is a cornerstone of poly, but the movement does itself no favors by mob-think enforcement of the rule and shunning all who sympathize or understand why people are not there yet.

Human relationships are not business arrangements. Sexuality is not beholden to rules, it will always find a way. Love is not subject to regulation. These are the very reasons there's a polyamory movement in the first place.
 
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dingedheart said:
Wow current event related thread :D

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=124127

No one dies from cheating it’s all ego bullshit. I didn’t see that being passed along on that thread.
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I'm not sure what you meant by the last sentence, but oh well.

When my ex and I first Opened our marriage back in 1999, on his first sexual foray, with my blessing, he went and had sex with this woman we knew. When he got home, after we had sex, I said something about, "How did the condoms go?" Since we'd never used one. (We met in the early '70's, there was no HIV/AIDS, I was on The Pill and I was lucky enough to not catch a STD or pregnancy.)

He's all, "Oh, we didn't need one, she has a diaphragm."

Eek!

Obviously, lack of protection miscommunication can happen in ethical non-monogamy as well. I had assumed it was understood. I knew they were required and I'd just assumed he knew. To top it off, we knew this woman's last lover was a, shall we say, footloose and fancy free young Deadhead. We had to all get tested, stat. Since she hadn't used condoms with that dude either! Jesus.

Cheating does not equal lack of protection. Ethical non-monogamy does not equal safer sex. I happen to know lots of bareback goes on with the swinger community, with senior citizens who are single and dating... etc., etc.

So let's not move the goalposts.
 
Magdlyn said:
Wow, you are only acquainted with one gay woman in your entire offline life. OK... Huh.
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No not entirely accurate. I’ve been acquainted with many gay women. I played on a coed soccer team after college that was founded by a gay woman. And there were parents of some of the kids I coached that had 2 moms. All said there might have been a dozen or on the outside 2 dozen BUT nothing of a relationship in which we would share the inner workings of our relationships.
Now with Melanie the electrical contractor that opportunity could have happened she been invited to go with us on Friday nights...she’s in the office and warehouse enough if she wanted to talk about her personal life she could and would if that’s something she wanted to. By contrast I have female office worker that tells everyone everything about her marital issues and health issues and issues with her step kids , etc etc.


Lesbians are human like everyone else.
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Wow ...good to know. Thanks :D


But there is a hormonal difference when you have 2 women, as compared to 2 gay men. Because of estrogen fluctuation, women are more likely to want sex, including cheating, when ovulating, whereas men's testosterone generally stays at a constant level. Of course, there are reasons to cheat other than sexual ones. Women are more in touch with their emotions, for example. So there might be more emotional reasons to cheat for women, whether they are straight, gay or bi.
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You’re contributing cheating to their monthly cycle ??

The guys I know who cheated on their wives did it because they thought they could get away with it. Not because they weren’t getting sex at home. You seem to think the primary reason people cheat is for the lack of sex. I think that’s perhaps 1 small minority.

Reasons / excuses. I know a guy I use to work with at the exchange he got married to a very attractive girl/ woman smart funny...great cook, etc etc, etc . total package in the opinion of lots of us. Way too good for him. Anyway They quickly pumped out several kids. Her body changed ...she got considerably heavier and as a result he found her less attractive and started having an affair with a very young college intern.
I personally ran into him while he was out with his new gf and a couple days later I asked what the hell he was thinking. That’s when he told me he was turned off by his wife’s body.
GOOD REASON OR not so good. Choices?


I began to pick up on the clues soon after meeting him.
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Thanks for proving my point.


Yep. I had started dating at 16. I met my ex h at 19. I was exhausted by the dating process and kinda wanted to "settle down." Men are SO difficult and many of them suck so bad. My husband-to-be was funny, cute, sexy and great in bed, often kind, always modest, even humble, generous, musically talented, a leftist liberal (although as a man of his times, he had unconscious misogyny and homophobia), loved the arts and music as I did, was adventurous in many ways, loved to travel, enjoyed museums and books, was very intelligent, friendly, enjoyed entertaining friends and family, had a big fun family I liked, was a hard worker and a good provider, was willing to go to therapy when our relationship needed it (for as much good as that ever did), loved nature, hiking, camping, canoeing, biking, and enjoyed my gardening talents, ate any food I cooked and praised me for it, wanted children and shared parenting theories of mine, supported me in having home births and doing extended breastfeeding and family bed, was interested in a whole foods diet, enjoyed weed and beers to relax with me...
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Exhausted at age 19.:D I bet you dated more in the last 3 months than you did from16 to 19. Relative to today how many dates were you going on per month ?


husband
This is truly very marked /opposite side of how you usually describe him. ( paraphrasing ) jealous insecure asshole.

I’m sure you pointed out his unconscious misogyny so then it was unconscious any longer. That wasn’t something he could correct ? How would unconscious homophobia effect your marriage ?? That seems like an offense looking for a crime.

You have kids and some or all are married correct? What did you share/ teach them in the compatibility check list.


We were well-suited in many ways. He wasn't perfect, of course. (Neither am I!)
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Stop you’re being too modest :D


We got along in many ways. I used to think it was 60% good and 40% not good. It was hard to make the decision to split. Especially for him. He took me for granted and expressed sorrow for his mistreatment of me, but it was too late.

Now I am with Pixi. She has many if not most/all of the great qualities my ex h had. And much less of the negative ones. I am fully satisfied with her and feel so lucky to have found her.
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HAPPY endings for all :D

For some reason I always picture you and Pixi in one of those studio portraits in matching sailor outfits ...just fun :D.
 
dingedheart said:
No not entirely accurate. I’ve been acquainted with many gay women. I played on a coed soccer team after college that was founded by a gay woman. And there were parents of some of the kids I coached that had 2 moms. All said there might have been a dozen or on the outside 2 dozen BUT nothing of a relationship in which we would share the inner workings of our relationships.
Now with Melanie the electrical contractor that opportunity could have happened she been invited to go with us on Friday nights...she’s in the office and warehouse enough if she wanted to talk about her personal life she could and would if that’s something she wanted to. By contrast I have female office worker that tells everyone everything about her marital issues and health issues and issues with her step kids , etc etc.
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OK, whew, I thought you were living under a rock lol!


You’re contributing cheating to their monthly cycle?
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No, not at all, just talking about differences in sex drives because of hormones.

The guys I know who cheated on their wives did it because they thought they could get away with it. Not because they weren’t getting sex at home. You seem to think the primary reason people cheat is for the lack of sex. I think that’s perhaps a small minority.
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I don't think I said here, the only reason to cheat is lack of sex. Your male friends/acquaintances wanted variety then. Because humans are meant to be promiscuous/involved in multi-partner relationships. That, I have pointed out at least once here.

Reasons/excuses: A guy I used to work with at the exchange got married to a very attractive girl/woman: smart, funny, great cook, etc., etc., etc. Total package, in the opinion of lots of us. Way too good for him. Anyway. They quickly pumped out several kids. Her body changed. She got considerably heavier, and as a result he found her less attractive and started having an affair with a very young college intern.

I personally ran into him while he was out with his new gf and a couple days later I asked what the hell he was thinking. That’s when he told me he was turned off by his wife’s body.
GOOD REASON OR not so good. Choices?

Exhausted at age 19.:D I bet you dated more in the last 3 months than you did from 16 to 19.
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Nah, I've barely dated anyone in the last year and a half.

Relative to today how many dates were you going on per month?
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God, who knows. Your talking early 70s lol. I had several "serious" (for a teenager) bfs, a few flings, two experiments with women...

husband:
This is truly very marked/opposite side of how you usually describe him. (paraphrasing) jealous insecure asshole.
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I don't think I've ever called him an asshole. Jealous and insecure, def. But yeah, of course he had some good qualities, or I never would have stayed with him so long. I'm not that much of a masochist.

I’m sure you pointed out his unconscious misogyny so then it was unconscious any longer. That wasn’t something he could correct?
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No, it was too ingrained and socially affirmed. He thought feminists were man haters. But once we Opened and he got a gf? She said the same things I'd been saying and all of a sudden it all made sense! The sushi effect. Made me so mad.

How would unconscious homophobia effect your marriage? That seems like an offense looking for a crime.
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Because I am bisexual. Mostly. He felt threatened by that too.

You have kids and some or all are married correct? What did you share/teach them in the compatibility check list?
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That's a long story, and probably off topic. And kind of none of your business.

Stop you’re being too modest :D
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;)

HAPPY endings for all :D
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Yeah! Well, for me. I don't know if my ex is ever really happy.

For some reason I always picture you and Pixi in one of those studio portraits in matching sailor outfits... just fun :D.
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Haha of all things!
 
Magdlyn said:
No, not at all, just talking about differences in sex drives because of hormones.
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Oh I see and thus a higher sex drive contributes to higher incidents of cheating.


God, who knows. Your talking early 70s lol. I had several "serious" (for a teenager) bfs, a few flings, two experiments with women...
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You said you were tired of dating at age 16 or 19. That could imply a plethora of dating experience or just a handful of bad ones.


I don't think I've ever called him an asshole. Jealous and insecure, def. But yeah, of course he had some good qualities, or I never would have stayed with him so long. I'm not that much of a masochist.
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I don’t think you did either but that’s always the vibe....that you’re so happy/ glad to be rid of him and his hang ups, etc etc.


No, it was too ingrained and socially affirmed. He thought feminists were man haters. But once we Opened and he got a gf? She said the same things I'd been saying and all of a sudden it all made sense! The sushi effect. Made me so mad.
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Some feminist are man haters :D.


Because I am bisexual. Mostly. He felt threatened by that too.
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Couldn’t have been too threatened he knew that going in ..right ?


That's a long story, and probably off topic. And kind of none of your business.
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Definitely off topic. But here’s why that question came into my head. You listed all the qualities of compatibility you and your ex had. With in that list parenting was one of those and I might add your list was admirable or enviable especially back in the dark ages as you said ....and yet you are still divorced. So I’m sure you figured out what the reconfigured compatibility list would look like. Not so much interests but attitudes and beliefs.
 
vinsanity0 said:
Really? The OP admitted it was all an ego trip on his part.
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Really ..really? The way I read it the the fear and trust was real and justified. And the ego stuff was related to him thinking he shouldn’t have to be the one to put on a condom with his full time partner for the once a month sex romp cheater.

By the way I bet the CDC has numbers of people that died from HIV/AIDS that were brought home from cheating gay or straight. Might not be the death sentence once was but still it’s going to fuck up your life.
 
dingedheart said:
By the way I bet the CDC has numbers of people that died from HIV/AIDS that were brought home from cheating gay or straight. Might not be the death sentence once was but still it’s going to fuck up your life.
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The CDC doesn't seem to stick its nose so far up the public's ass as to pry into whether cheating was involved in transmission. I think one thing we all can agree on is that contracting any STI via a cheating situation is a severely raw deal. As you say, HIV isn't as fatal as it used to be, but it's still one of many infections. Chlamydia is actually now the most commonly reported STI and carries the most serious consequences for women who are unaware of its presence.
 
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dingedheart said:
Really ..really? The way I read it the the fear and trust was real and justified. And the ego stuff was related to him thinking he shouldn’t have to be the one to put on a condom with his full time partner for the once a month sex romp cheater.

By the way I bet the CDC has numbers of people that died from HIV/AIDS that were brought home from cheating gay or straight. Might not be the death sentence once was but still it’s going to fuck up your life.
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DO you think everyone who cheats gets an STI? I'd bet the percentage is pretty low, considering the amount of people who cheat.

I think the whole "one might catch something" argument is a cheap copout.
 
It seems like the percentage of cheaters who forego condoms are higher than the general population. I always thought that was a little mindblowing. I mean, you're going to have bareback sex with someone who you know is actively seeking more sex partners and so you have no idea what's going on in this network? I find that idea absolutely terrifying.
 
Vicki82 said:
It seems like the percentage of cheaters who forego condoms are higher than the general population. I always thought that was a little mindblowing. I mean, you're going to have bareback sex with someone who you know is actively seeking more sex partners and so you have no idea what's going on in this network? I find that idea absolutely terrifying.
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I agree. Like, not all STIs/STDs are easily cured or basically 'harmless'. Why would you expose YOURSELF to that risk, let alone an unsuspecting partner?
 
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FallenAngelina said:
That one compares couples in cheating relationships to couples in open relationships - not the general population. I don't imagine there are any groups that have safer sex than people who are openly non-monogamous. I wonder what the condom use rate is among all single people.
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According to the CDC only one third of Americans use condoms.They don't distinguish between relationship styles. https://consumer.healthday.com/sexual-health-information-32/condom-health-news-154/only-about-one-third-of-americans-use-condoms-cdc-725436.html

I think the claim that people who cheat basically sleep with anything that moves is a way to demonize cheaters. Most of the cheaters I've known only have sex with one other person. They are looking for something that is lacking in their relationship.
 
God forbid we 'demonize' people who lie to their spouse, potentially expose their spouse to diseases that can affect not only that person's health but the health of any future children, take time and money from the family, and break trust. Yep, they should really be given a gold medal of some sort.


If something is lacking in their relationship MAN UP. Deal with it with the spouse and either fix it or be honest about moving on.

I still cannot believe I'm hearing a defense of deception and lying on a forum that, when I joined, held HONESTY and COMMUNICATION as the highest values.

Now many here are defending...excuse me 'explaining'... dishonesty and refusal to communicate even important facts like, 'hey, honey, I just had sex without protection and maybe we should both get tested.'

DO you think everyone who cheats gets an STI? I'd bet the percentage is pretty low, considering the amount of people who cheat.
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Okay, so if only 5% of betrayed spouses get STIs, that makes it okay?

If the spouse is one of the lucky ones who doesn't get an STI, it makes the cheating okay??? Are YOU okay with someone having bareback sex and coming home to sleep with you and not mentioning it?

Thank God I got no STI from my cheating XH. His cheating is part of what led to divorce. But I guess my kids shouldn't be affected by divorce as long as I didn't get an actual STI? I guess that's all that should matter to them, not their family being broken up?

His cheating did lead to a nasty recurring series of bacterial vaginitis, that cost a lot of money and a lot of pain, but hey, as long as I'm not actually dead from an STI, it's okay? Sorry, but I don't appreciate being put through that.

His cheating also led to his 24 year old skank GF doing actual damage to our car which could have killed him. (Funny how emotions get involved with sex and affairs.)

I guess as long as he died from a car spinning out on the highway but I didn't get an STI, cheating somehow doesn't matter and the kids should have been okay with that? HEY, Dad's dead, but mom never got an STI!!!

What if the bunny boiler had found our home and done the same damage and I'd been driving the car with my young children in it? Hey, my kid's now dead, but I didn't get an STI, so what they hey, I guess cheating isn't that big a deal...

I'm glad at least we're now talking about the potential physical ramifications of STIs. They happen and they matter, whether it's 10% or 80% or more.

But I'm still shocked at how cheating and all its destruction to a marriage is being dismissed as not that big a deal and 'poor cheaters being given a bad rap.'

Yeah...HONESTY, COMMUNICATION. If they don't solve the problem, end the marriage, but there is no justification for lying to a trusting partner and cheating.

This forum used to be about honesty and communication.
 
vinsanity0 said:
I think the claim that people who cheat basically sleep with anything that moves is a way to demonize cheaters. Most of the cheaters I've known only have sex with one other person. They are looking for something that is lacking in their relationship.
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Bully for them. ONLY ONE PERSON. What if that one person passes on a disease? What if that one person is a crazy bunny boiler whose actions cause real harm?

If something is missing in a relationship:

WORK ON THE PROBLEM HONESTLY.
IF you can't solve it...be honest and leave.

"Something is lacking" does NOT justify lying to your trusting spouse, let alone sleeping with someone else, breaking trust, and exposing them and your children to all the potential fallout of an affair (not just STIs, but the things I mentioned above).
 
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