I'm a "swinger," but I LOVE my multiple partners

[Magdlyn]

No, this title doesn't pertain to me.

But I was reading an old thread started by a banned member, Polynatural, who said that they had interviewed multiple people who IDed as swingers, but their relationships involved feelings of strong fondness, or even love, for their multiple partners, with whom they had ongoing relationships.

Here is that thread.
http://polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=100201

To me, that sounds like they are (maybe older) people, clinging to the "swinger" title from the early 1960s, but they are not actually swingers by definition.

I might liken it to a woman who still IDs as a lesbian, even though she has met, and fallen in love with, and is now having a sexual romantic ongoing relationship with a man.

I might also liken it to a person who is involved romantically with more than one partner (lunabunny was one of our members like this), but somehow does not ID as poly, saying this just happened with these particular people, but she is sure if one of those people dumped her, or died, or whatever, she would never have two lovers at once ever again. (How anyone can predict the future like that is beyond me.)

Or I might compare it to a woman who still IDs as a lesbian even after her ongoing partner, who had IDed a a butch female, realizes they are actually male, and transitions to male (maybe by taking hormones, getting some surgery, dressing as male everywhere he goes, coming out at work and to family as a man). It seems to me you are bisexual at that point, if you romantically, sexually love a person who IDs as male. If you were a lesbian, and your partner transitioned, you'd break up with them, since you're NOT attracted to men (yes, even if he does not have a penis).

I thought swinging was the idea that you had sex with multiple people WITHOUT feelings of love, that you actually did things to prevent falling in love, or even being "in like."

Here's a list

- Do not have an ongoing relationship
- Limit eye contact
- Do not discuss vanilla topics
- No kissing on the mouth
- No cuddling
- No romance, such as candles and music
- No vanilla dates, except maybe the first one
- No food sharing (even if you're starving after sex!)
- After sex, get out of bed, get dressed and part ways immediately
- No overnights
- No domestic shared chores
- No meeting of children

Etc., etc.

And if love developed, you'd have to break up. Often, an entire quad would have to break up, if forbidden love happened between the swapping MF couple. You can only love your husband, your wife, never the other person you are fucking.

But I have heard of people who ID as swingers emphatically, also say they have ongoing "friends" with whom they have sex, but they also eat food with them, party (booze, drugs, dancing), hang out, go on dates with non-sexual activities (play pool, go to a movie, go camping for days at a time!), share babysitting. Which all sounds much like polyamory and is likely to cause love feelings to arise.

One difference might be a focus on couple-centrism. These types of swingers can do all these poly activities as long as it's 4 people, 2 MF couples, and each couple "swaps wives" every time there is sex. If one of the 4 loses interest in the other person of the opposite sex, all hell breaks loose.

We get people coming here all the time, who are in swinger oriented quads, where one or more of the partners falls too much in love, or one or more of the partners refuses to have sex anymore with the swing partner of the opposite sex.

Therefore, I still prefer swinging to be defined by casual relationships with little to no fond feelings. Then you can know, if feelings develop, you're polyamorous, not a swinger, after all, and the difference is clear, the transition is smoother, and there is less devastation all around.

 

[vinsanity0]

Cat and I weren't swingers, but we had a large group of friends who were. We didn't get into swinging because it does involve other couples. If one of us was attracted to one, the other wasn't attracted to the other. We stuck to recreational threesomes but didn't consider that swinging.

Most of the swingers we knew had no problems hanging out with other swinging couples as friends. I certainly never saw any of those rules you described.

In particular there was a pair of couples who hung out a lot together. They even all lived together at one point. I'll call them Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice. Bob and Carol were a couple. Ted and Alice were a couple. Each couple would have sex with themselves alone, but Bob and Alice, and Ted and Carol would never have sex alone. They would only have sex with each other in a group. In social situations in which both couples were present, they presented themselves as the original couples. There was never any PDA among the non-couple members. They would often go to swing clubs together, but each couple would swing as a couple and not necessarily with the other couple in their "quad". For all intents and purposes they were two couples who were friends with each other. They may have had loving friendships, but there was no romance involved. In no way would I consider that poly.

Oddly enough, or maybe not so oddly, none of our swinging friends understood how Cat and I could do poly. It was a totally foreign concept to have autonomous relationships.

 

[kdt26417]

I'm thinking that FWB relationships are kind of a gray area, sometimes they are considered swing and sometimes they are considered poly, depending on the details of each individual relationship.

I'm also thinking that a number of newcomers have posted on Polyamory.com indicating that they transitioned from swing to poly. Odd of me to say this, but I don't think many (if any) people transition from poly to swing.

 

[Al99]

Therefore, I still prefer swinging to be defined by casual relationships with little to no fond feelings. Then you can know, if feelings develop, you're polyamorous, not a swinger, after all, and the difference is clear, the transition is smoother, and there is less devastation all around.

Nice post, Mags - and I am on the same page in my understanding. I often think of the primary characteristics of swinging as being "couple-centric" and "recreational sex oriented".

However, as I have read many times here and in poly literature as well - a "swinger relationship" can evolve into a "poly relationship". After all, nothing like some hot sex to spark some intense emotional feelings.

In fact - although I haven't written about it yet, my wife, Becky, has a new partner, "Sam", who was originally an anonymous swinger hook up with us for an MFM 3-some (after I had agreed to grant her this fantasy wish). Interestingly, although the sexual experience itself was not as good as our first 3some a month earlier with someone different (but whose online swinger account disappeared shortly thereafter) - Becky and Sam did seem to develop a real connection, and ultimately we all agreed to drop the anonymity, and allow Becky and Sam to pursue a real relationship (after giving a Sam a crash course in poly). And things are going well for them - with NRE thick in the air.

I will just add a note that Becky's relationship with her original poly partner, Ben, has transitioned into friendship, after having become non-sexual a couple of months before our 3some experimentation (to which he did consent - on a DADT basis). He still lives with us, however - although he will be leaving within a few weeks. (And there is a certain irony in that we transitioned to poly so that Becky could explore her resurgent relationship with Ben, an old college boyfriend - but when they transitioned to platonic friendship - I had no interest in moving back to monogamy).

 

[Magdlyn]

I'm thinking that FWB relationships are kind of a gray area, sometimes they are considered swing and sometimes they are considered poly, depending on the details of each individual relationship.

I'm also thinking that a number of newcomers have posted on Polyamory.com indicating that they transitioned from swing to poly. Odd of me to say this, but I don't think many (if any) people transition from poly to swing.

Haha, well according to PolyNatural/hedgehog, my partner Pixi and I are both swingers even though we thought we were polyamorous for 10 years! (Going by the definition that "true poly" requires all partners in a V, a N or a larger poly network (W or star shape) to be fully involved with each other as bffs at the very least, if not fully sexually.)

 

[Magdlyn]

Nice post, Mags - and I am on the same page in my understanding. I often think of the primary characteristics of swinging as being "couple-centric" and "recreational sex oriented".

However, as I have read many times here and in poly literature as well - a "swinger relationship" can evolve into a "poly relationship". After all, nothing like some hot sex to spark some intense emotional feelings.

Maybe it's a secret swingers don't like to put out there... that even they are not capable of sex without love, so that it can "seem" like they only love their actual husbands and wives, but are just fucking their swap partner.

Just to keep the marital relationship "protected," ya know.

In fact - although I haven't written about it yet, my wife, Becky, has a new partner, "Sam", who was originally an anonymous swinger hook up with us for an MFM 3-some (after I had agreed to grant her this fantasy wish). Interestingly, although the sexual experience itself was not as good as our first 3some a month earlier with someone different (but whose online swinger account disappeared shortly thereafter) - Becky and Sam did seem to develop a real connection, and ultimately we all agreed to drop the anonymity, and allow Becky and Sam to pursue a real relationship (after giving a Sam a crash course in poly). And things are going well for them - with NRE thick in the air.

I will just add a note that Becky's relationship with her original poly partner, Ben, has transitioned into friendship, after having become non-sexual a couple of months before our 3some experimentation (to which he did consent - on a DADT basis). He still lives with us, however - although he will be leaving within a few weeks. (And there is a certain irony in that we transitioned to poly so that Becky could explore her resurgent relationship with Ben, an old college boyfriend - but when they transitioned to platonic friendship - I had no interest in moving back to monogamy).

Wow, thanks for the update, Al. Are you going to write about that in your blog?

 

[kdt26417]

In PolyNatural's now-defunct website, it said that all members of a polycule had to be intimate (interrelationships) with each other because of the infinity heart symbol. If there was any distance between any two metamours, the "infinity" part would be spoiled. Hence, parallel poly is not poly at all but rather swing, and a V at best is not completely poly. So goes the reasoning anyway, if you can follow it.

 

[Al99]

Wow, thanks for the update, Al. Are you going to write about that in your blog?

Interesting that you should ask that. I actually have never established a blog here, although I have posted about some key events - but, in light of these changes, it did occur to me that this would be a good time to do so. It will probably have to wait until after Spring Break, though - unless I find some unexpected free time (we do have that pesky youngster hanging around the house still).

Al

 

[icesong]

I ID'd as a swinger for a year or two, and honestly I didn't see most of the behaviors you described either, Magdlyn. What's the point of fucking without kissing, for one??!?! And people would go to the clubs/house parties and see the same people every month or few weeks, maybe hangout in groups in between; there were definitely ongoing, strong friendships between play partners and/or couples - things could range between one offs and FWB, there just wasn't usually *romance*. The mostly no overnights part is true, unless it was a group vacation.

Though the swinger set I hung with was pretty fluid, without quite as much focus on 1 for 1 couple swaps - people came in pairs but played separately or in groups according to their own whims, and "swaps" could be somewhat cascading. Like, if Knight and I showed up at a party where there were 3 other couples we knew, A+B, C+D and E+ F; the eventual sex might not be Knight + A and me + B, it might be Knight /A, B/D, me/F, C/E or some variation. So maybe that wasn't typical.

 

[Magdlyn]

I ID'd as a swinger for a year or two, and honestly I didn't see most of the behaviors you described either, Magdlyn. What's the point of fucking without kissing, for one??!?! And people would go to the clubs/house parties and see the same people every month or few weeks, maybe hangout in groups in between; there were definitely ongoing, strong friendships between play partners and/or couples - things could range between one offs and FWB, there just wasn't usually *romance*. The mostly no overnights part is true, unless it was a group vacation.

Though the swinger set I hung with was pretty fluid, without quite as much focus on 1 for 1 couple swaps - people came in pairs but played separately or in groups according to their own whims, and "swaps" could be somewhat cascading. Like, if Knight and I showed up at a party where there were 3 other couples we knew, A+B, C+D and E+ F; the eventual sex might not be Knight + A and me + B, it might be Knight /A, B/D, me/F, C/E or some variation. So maybe that wasn't typical.

OK, thanks for that info.

"Strong friendships," with frequent meetings, and lots of hot sex. How does that not turn into what most people would call love very quickly? How did you not fall in love?

And define "romance." I once went to a kink club. Off in a room alone was a man Florentine flogging a woman in a fancy lingerie outfit. He was all fancy in nice slacks and a vest over a dress shirt and tie. Soft music, low lights. It looked pretty romantic to me. Even if any random person could go in and watch for a while.

Does romance imply only one on one stuff, a small table in a French restaurant with candles, or a long walk on the beach, that trite stuff?

If a swinger group goes camping, what isn't romantic about drinking beer over a nice fire after the kids are in bed? A hike in gorgeous nature. Cuddling in a tent when it's raining outside. Those are romantic scenes to me. Especially if most people go to bed and somehow 2 people, who aren't married OMG end up alone by the fire.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

"But I have heard of people who ID as swingers emphatically, also say they have ongoing "friends" with whom they have sex, but they also eat food with them, party (booze, drugs, dancing), hang out, go on dates with non-sexual activities (play pool, go to a movie, go camping for days at a time!), share babysitting. Which all sounds much like polyamory and is likely to cause love feelings to arise."

What I'm going to say also corresponds to the last few posts.

I'm polyamorous. If I have a relationship which includes sexual intimacy as well as friendship, the chances of me developing romantic feelings regardless of my existing commitments is relatively high.

The difference between me and my long term swinging friends who behave in much like the way you describe (though they might kiss and have eye contact!) is that they genuinely have no independent desire for multiple romantic relationships like I do. There's something in them that either thinks it is wrong on some level or they just don't connect with people simultaneously in that way. They don't have to constantly police their actions to keep within boundaries because they have no desire to stray into that territory.

What I will say about their swinging is that it is quite compartmentalized. So they might spend a weekend with a couple they swing with where they'll go to markets etc on the Saturday as couples on a double or triple date, spend the whole day as normal friends and then in the evening, they'll all just know it's time for fun. The next morning, they'll wake and eat breakfast as 3 couple friends away for a few days. They effortlessly transition between the scenarios with ease.

 

[FallenAngelina]

... they genuinely have no independent desire for multiple romantic relationships like I do.....They don't have to constantly police their actions to keep within boundaries because they have no desire to stray into that territory.

I hung with a swinging crowd during the years I was separating from my marriage and found this to be true. There is camaraderie among them, lots of vanilla hanging out, friendship, kissing during sex, fluid (not swapping) change of sex partners but not one instance of someone falling for another partner. I experienced this, as well. This fluid group (and I) have no need for most of those stereotypical swinger rules because there's just something in us that has no interest or ability to fall in love with multiple people. I hung with this group for several years and saw no policing whatsoever. At the same time there was plenty of kissing, eye contact, regular dates with the same person, parties in which couples roamed as individuals, not presenting as a unit, etc. and LOTS of food sharing.

My thought as a monogamish person is that if my partner is going to fall in love with someone else, he going to fall in love with someone else. Taking steps to prevent this defeats the whole purpose of love. Love cannot flourish without freedom of choice. I no more have to be afraid of my partner falling in love with someone else than I have to be afraid of him deciding to move to Malta - it's highly unlikely to happen. But my flitting about and putting rules in place certainly will not prevent it. We fell head over heels just by talking and getting to know each other, so sex really has no magical power that human connection doesn't already carry. That's how we experience it.

 

[vinsanity0]

Following along with that, I am reminded another couple. They hooked up with a friend of ours in a sort of triad. He fell head over heals for this girl and ended up dumping his wife for her. Made absolutely no sense to me. He had a great wife AND he could still see this other girl. But that illustrates just how couple-centric swinging is. He couldn't love two people so he felt he had to choose.

 

[Magdlyn]

I hung with a swinging crowd during the years I was separating from my marriage and found this to be true. There was camaraderie among them, lots of vanilla hanging out, friendship, kissing during sex, fluid (not swapping) change of sex partners, but not one instance of someone falling for another partner.

I experienced this, as well. This fluid group (and I) have no need for most of those stereotypical swinger rules, because there's just something in us that has no interest or ability to fall in love with multiple people. I hung with this group for several years and saw no policing whatsoever. At the same time there was plenty of kissing, eye contact, regular dates with the same person, parties in which couples roamed as individuals, not presenting as a unit, etc. and LOTS of food sharing.

... Sex really has no magical power that human connection doesn't already carry. That's how we experience it.

So, Karen, you are NOT polyamorous? I had assumed you were, what with your long involvement on this board. You are polysexual, but monoamorous (monogamish)? (Why are you interested in polyamory, if you never practiced it? Why are you qualified to advise polyamorous people? I mean, why do you bother? )

I hear you saying that, in your opinion, there is some kind of inborn mindset where some people are just incapable of loving more than one at a time (whatever love is...). It's not social conditioning, it's a hard wired inability, in your experience. Or is is social conditioning? Do you feel socially conditioned to be loyal to one partner?

You say there is no policing, no one flitting about making sure no one is too emotionally intimate and in risk of falling in love, during swinger sex parties. I didn't mean to imply there were rules enforced by certain people who were watchdogs. I went by things I read, that there were guidelines, or understandings amongst swingers, as to how to prevent overly fond feelings from happening.

I also know very well a femme (bi) male who used to go to swinger parties, who was pursued into the men's bathrooms frequently by other males presenting as straight, who tried to get him to have sex with them on the DL, even though he wasn't interested in this clandestine activity... So I can't help but suspect everything is not so cut and dried as you are saying.

You are or were a swinger. You say you had causal sex with many people over a number of years, and you never fell in love, or witnessed anyone falling in love, with another swinger who wasn't their spouse. And it seems like you must have met dozens of people, and there was never any fallout, no tragedies, no marriages ending because of one couple falling out of love with each other, and preferring others?

This seems to beat the national average divorce/breakup rate. Maybe swinging, the outlet of the opportunity to have sex with others prevents breakups? Do you concur? Does casual sex prevent marriages breaking up, even if there is (little to) no one falling in love with others?

Why then, in your opinion, do we get ex-swingers here so frequently, who are devastated by the whole "my spouse fell in love with his sex partner, that's terrible, I want to kill myself," issue?

 

[Magdlyn]

Following along with that, I am reminded another couple. They hooked up with a friend of ours in a sort of triad. He fell head over heals for this girl and ended up dumping his wife for her. Made absolutely no sense to me. He had a great wife AND he could still see this other girl. But that illustrates just how couple-centric swinging is. He couldn't love two people so he felt he had to choose.

Karen claims she NEVER saw a couple break up because one fell in love with another sex partner, despite being with this group for several years! That just seems impossible to me.

 

[vinsanity0]

Karen claims she NEVER saw a couple break up because one fell in love with another sex partner, despite being with this group for several years! That just seems impossible to me.

I have to assume swinging is a spectrum like anything else. There are couples, like you describe, where everything is on the edge of falling apart. They have strict rules in place to keep both partners comfortable. Then there are very fluid groups like Karen's where everything is very fluid and nobody is going to fall in love. That's pretty rare I would think. The group I hung out with was somewhere in between.

I understand it seeming impossible. If I have sex with someone and it's good, and we hang out and that's good, I am likely going to fall for that person.

 

[Magdlyn]

I have to assume swinging is a spectrum like anything else. There are couples, like you describe, where everything is on the edge of falling apart. They have strict rules in place to keep both partners comfortable. Then there are very fluid groups like Karen's where everything is very fluid and nobody is going to fall in love. That's pretty rare I would think. The group I hung out with was somewhere in between.

I understand it seeming impossible. If I have sex with someone and it's good, and we hang out and that's good, I am likely going to fall for that person.

I have been with men with whom the sex was great, and they were nice people, interesting cool people. I didn't necessarily "fall in love," especially if they seemed to be holding back their feelings for whatever reason, but I definitely felt a personal intimate fondess for them.

Another thought occurred to me. Maybe swingers define "love" in their head differently. Maybe if they do actually feel that tingle, the infatuation, that special craving for the attention of another, they just quickly deny and bury it, since it's so unacceptable in their culture.

I could see them actually subtly avoiding a certain someone if they felt their feelings were growing... tamping it down, so to speak. Like you might tamp down a crush for a coworker or your brother in law, or another messy person. So, a self policing of a sort. Maybe you WOULD avoid kissing and eye contact with someone you felt "inappropriate" feelings for.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Why then, in your opinion, do we get ex-swingers here so frequently, who are devastated by the whole "my spouse fell in love with his sex partner, that's terrible, I want to kill myself," issue?

From my experience, it isn't that it never happens. That's why I specified long term swinging couples. Here, I'm talking about the people who have already participated for a lengthy period of time and sustained an ongoing relationship and what I think distinguishes them from the people who have far more hiccups. What makes them different is that both people independently desire romantic commitment with only one person. There isn't one person desperately trying to hold onto the reins of the other who just wants to bolt out the stable. That's what we see the fallout from here.

If you go to more private parties where there are only groups of people well acquainted with at least some of the attendees, you'll find fewer "party rules" because people are less worried about having to vigorously police boundaries around someone who has unknown desires or intentions.

For me, because I am poly, I keep any swinging relationships with these types of people at a bit of a distance because it is ME who is likely to develop feelings and perhaps actions which are problematic in terms of territory. I might limit how much I kiss because I need that distinction to participate in swinging healthily. Swingers who have no desire for romantic commitment often do not need to create such boundaries because their hearts just don't work that way.

 

[FallenAngelina]

(Why are you interested in polyamory, if you never practiced it? Why are you qualified to advise polyamorous people?

I've written about this a few times here, so this was no "reveal," but I am monogamish, yes, not polyamorous. I was indeed involved in a polyamorous relationship a few years back and have also written about that and referenced that quite a few times here. My polyamorous relationship evolved out of a larger poly community friendships in my area - not a polycule, but people around here who all know each other and have some overlap in romantic involvement. I hang around poly and swingery people, yes. When I was in a poly relationship, my BF was married and I had a really nice relationship with his wife. We are all three still quite close, in fact.

Swingers who have no desire for romantic commitment often do not need to create such boundaries because their hearts just don't work that way.

SeasonedPolyAgain's posts seem to be getting to the heart of what I'm describing.

 

[Magdlyn]

I've written about this a few times here, so this was no "reveal," but I am monogamish, yes, not polyamorous. I was indeed involved in a polyamorous relationship a few years back and have also written about that and referenced that quite a few times here. My polyamorous relationship evolved out of a larger poly community friendships in my area - not a polycule, but people around here who all know each other and have some overlap in romantic involvement. I hang around poly and swingery people, yes. When I was in a poly relationship, my BF was married and I had a really nice relationship with his wife. We are all three still quite close, in fact.

I remember that relationship, but I wasn't really aware of all the years of swinging, or that you got out of the triad and now ID as basically mono. You've run the gamut! Monogamously married, swinging, polyamorous triad and now mostly mono once again!

Or maybe the triad was not polyamorous. Maybe you loved him, but just liked the wife in a swingerish way.

SeasonedPolyAgain's posts seem to be getting to the heart of what I'm describing.

I admit I don't feel satisfied by "their hearts just don't work that way." Are they broken? Is something wrong with their hormones? Are they so deeply socially brainwashed they have forever turned off their ability to deeply care about anyone other than their main partner?

I have also heard stories about women who only swing because their husbands want some "strange," and so these women fuck men they aren't attracted to, just to stay married, either for social or financial reasons. That's the saddest thing of all, in my mind.