Keep trying, or find a new third?

[NightShadow]

Hello,

My wife and I have been in a on-and-off relationship with a woman for about two years. A little bit of background: this other woman is currently involved with another man, who is married to another woman, and that man’s wife also has another girlfriend.

When we initially started discussing the idea of having a threesome/relationship, everybody was on board. The first year was amazing. I had known that they were limitations from the beginning because our third’s boyfriend was only comfortable with her being physically shared with others, but not emotionally. At first, we thought that wouldn’t be a problem. But several months later, real feelings were beginning to develop.

At this point, everyone had to take a step back to reevaluate what we each wanted, and what we were all comfortable with. Since then, we haven’t quite recovered, as there have been only subtle and sometimes not-so-subtle signals from the third that we will eventually give it another try. During this time, my wife has been able to spend much more time with this woman than I have, and continue their friendship. I felt that being the male in the situation, being more involved, made things more complicated for our third and her boyfriend. We each undoubtably have feelings for each other, though I hate to say that my wife and I feel that her boyfriend is terrible for her, but can never just outright say that to her. Subconsciously I hoped that she would leave him for us, but I now don’t think that will ever happen.

Should I keep being patient and pursue this relationship with this third, or start my search for someone new?

 

[Belladonna]

My wife and I have been in a on and off relationship with a woman for about two years. A little bit of background. This other woman is currently involved with another man who is married to another woman, that man’s wife also has another girlfriend. When we initially started discussing the idea of having a threesome/relationship, everybody was on board. The first year was amazing. I had known that they were limitations from the beginning because our third’s boyfriend was only comfortable with her being physically shared with others, but not emotionally. At first, we thought that wouldn’t be a problem until several months later, where real feelings were beginning to develop. At this point, everyone had to take a step back to reevaluate what we each wanted, and what we were all comfortable with. Since then, we haven’t quite recovered as there’s been only subtle and sometimes not so subtle signals from the third that we will eventually give it another try. During this time, my wife has been able to spend much more time with this woman than I have, and continue their friendship. I felt that being the male in the situation, being more involved, made things more complicated for our third and her boyfriend. We each undoubtably have feelings for each other. Though I hate to say that my wife and I feel that her boyfriend is terrible for her, but can never just outright say that to her. Subconsciously I hoped that she would leave him for us, but I now don’t think that will ever happen. Should I keep patient and pursue this relationship with this third or start my search for someone new?

As someone who has been in a few triads, and is currently in one at the moment, I can say that it is not easy to just find someone new and exchange people. Everyone is different. Everyone comes with their own wants and needs. People are not interchangeable.

Now, if you want to find a new person to date on your own, then by all means, that’s a good idea, as long as you are not doing it because you are mad and not getting your way with your gf. But if you are looking to find a new third, the chances of finding a perfect one will probably not happen so easily, if at all.

 

[NightShadow]

As someone who has been in a few triads, and is currently in one at the moment, I can say that it is not easy to just find someone new and exchange people. Everyone is different. Everyone comes with their own wants and needs. People are not interchangeable.

Now, if you want to find a new person to date on your own, then by all means, that’s a good idea, as long as you are not doing it because you are mad and not getting your way with your gf. But if you are looking to find a new third, the chances of finding a perfect one will probably not happen so easily, if at all.

Yeah, I totally get that. It’s not like I want to replace her. That is definitely not what I’m trying to do. She is just not emotionally available and I don’t see that changing anytime soon. In a perfect world, us three would have a great relationship together. There are just so many complications that give me doubt. We found this third through my wife, so I have yet to venture out to try to meet someone on my own. I do know that it would be very difficult, and that most likely I would never find someone who was perfect. As a male, I know the odds are stacked against me. I wouldn’t mind dating some new people that both my wife and I would like.

 

[Belladonna]

Yeah, I totally get that. It’s not like I want to replace her. That is definitely not what I’m trying to do. She is just not emotionally available and I don’t see that changing anytime soon. In a perfect world, us three would have a great relationship together. There’s just so many complications that give me doubt. We found this third through my wife so I have yet to venture out to try to meet someone on my own. I do know that it would be very difficult, and most likely would never find someone who is perfect. As a male, I know the odds are stacked against me. I wouldn’t mind dating some new people both my wife and I would like.

Do you have a local poly community? If you do, maybe go to some events and meet people. I have found that the best way to find dates and like-minded folks.

If you are looking to date someone separately from your wife, this would also be a good way to go. Also, kitchen table poly might work well for your dynamic. It does not require the person to date you both, but everyone gets together and knows each other.

But again, fair warning-- what you want might not work out. I dated a guy a few years ago and he practices kitchen table. The wife and I did not mesh well and I preferred parallel with him. We are still talking and good friends, but a long-term relationship probably would not work out since they want kitchen table poly.

 

[NightShadow]

Do you have a local poly community? If you do, maybe go to some events and meet people. I have found that the best way to find dates and like-minded folks.
If you are looking to date someone separately from your wife, this would also be a good way to go. Also, kitchen table poly might work well for your dynamic. It does not require the person to date you both, but everyone gets together and knows each other. But again, fair warning-- what you want might not work out. I dated a guy a few years ago who practices kitchen table. His wife and I did not mesh well, so I preferred parallel with him. We are still talking and good friends, but a long-term relationship probably will not work out, since they want kitchen table poly.

That’s an interesting idea. I’ll have to look to see if there are any poly communities around me to go to some events. I’m not sure my wife would be comfortable with the kitchen table arrangement, since she would want to be involved with this new person, as well. I haven’t really decided if I would like to date someone independently from my wife, since I do enjoy the triad dynamic. I’ve considered signing up to a few dating apps for poly to see if I can begin to start meeting some people. I've just been so on the fence about waiting out our current situation.

 

[Belladonna]

That’s an interesting idea. I’ll have to look to see if there are any poly communities around me to go to some events. I’m not sure my wife would be comfortable with the kitchen table arrangement, since she would want to be involved with this new person, as well. I haven’t really decided if I would like to date someone independently from my wife, since I do enjoy the triad dynamic. I’ve considered signing up to a few dating apps for poly to see if I can begin to start meeting some people. I've just been so on the fence about waiting out our current situation.

I saw on your intro post that you are in California. I am, as well. There are very large communities all over Cali.

Another far warning, since you are looking for a third, I would look into "unicorn hunting." It is very much frowned upon in the poly community. Dynamics usually go at different paces, so to find 3 people that are at the same level at the same time pretty much does not happen. It’s never even.

 

[NightShadow]

I saw on your intro post that you are in California. I am, as well. There are very large communities all over Cali.

Another fair warning, since you are looking for a third, I would look into "unicorn hunting." It is very much frowned upon in the poly community. Dynamics usually go at different paces, so to find 3 people that are at the same level at the same time pretty much does not happen. It’s never even.

Yes, I’m out here in California. Okay, that’s good to know. I’m gonna have to do some hunting, for sure. A unicorn is exactly what we’re looking for. That’s what our current third is and I know it’s nearly impossible to get the dynamic to match up perfectly. I’m just trying to decide if it’s just worth being patient, since I do love this girl. I just wish the circumstances were different.

 

[kdt26417]

Hello NightShadow,

Your third's boyfriend has only consented to her having physical relations with you. He has not consented to her having emotional relations with you. You have learned by experience that if you get physically involved with this woman, you will soon also get emotionally involved with her. So, having her with you in a triad is only ethical if either the boyfriend changes his mind, or she breaks up with him. Polyamory is defined as something that happens with the mutual consent of all connected parties. I think the most likely outcome here is that you will have to find a new third. But I hope I'm wrong.

Regards,
Kevin T.

 

[NightShadow]

Your third's boyfriend has only consented to her having physical relations with you. He has not consented to her having emotional relations with you. You have learned by experience that if you get physically involved with this woman, you will soon also get emotionally involved with her. So, having her with you in a triad is only ethical if either the boyfriend changes his mind, or she breaks up with him. Polyamory is defined as something that happens with the mutual consent of all connected parties. I think the most likely outcome here is that you will have to find a new third. But I hope I'm wrong.

Yep, that’s pretty much where my head is at. I hope you’re wrong, as well. But if I’m being honest with myself, that’s probably going to be the outcome. It really sucks, because I do really like this girl. It just feels like it wasn’t meant to be. My wife is still really attached to her and wants to give it more time, so I guess I need to begin the conversation of starting to look elsewhere.

 

[Magdlyn]

Yep, that’s pretty much where my head is at. I hope you’re wrong, as well. But if I’m being honest with myself, that’s probably going to be the outcome. It really sucks, because I do really like this girl. It just feels like it wasn’t meant to be. My wife is still really attached to her and wants to give it more time, so I guess I need to begin the conversation of starting to look elsewhere.

I'm sorry you fell in love with your unicorn, when she was only supposed to be getting into this threesome for casual sex and possibly friendship. She and her bf made an agreement to only have sex with others, not love. Unfortunately, sex and love go hand-in-hand. Swingers manage to keep the two apart by using very strict techniques and a specific mindset that puts the original couples first and foremost, and keeps all others at arms length.

But you and your wife love your gf, and maybe she loves you, so the only thing to do is respect she broke her agreement. What is going on is not ethical and is being done against her relationship agreement with her bf, and without his consent.

Best poly practices are for a couple to date independently. It seems fun to date together, like you'd share a hobby, e.g., ballroom dancing, or hiking, or playing video games. But to share a PERSON, no, it's different. There are more moving parts, and the wishes/tastes of the "third," and the wishes of that third's other partner(s), etc., etc. Also, her feelings may be stronger for you than for your wife, or vice versa.

 

[NightShadow]

I'm sorry you fell in love with your unicorn, when she was only supposed to be getting into this threesome for casual sex and possibly friendship. She and her bf made an agreement to only have sex with others, not love. Unfortunately, sex and love go hand-in-hand. Swingers manage to keep the two apart by using very strict techniques and a specific mindset that puts the original couples first and foremost, and keeps all others at arms length.

But you and your wife love your gf, and maybe she loves you, so the only thing to do is respect she broke her agreement. What is going on is not ethical and is being done against her relationship agreement with her bf, and without his consent.

Best poly practices are for a couple to date independently. It seems fun to date together, like you'd share a hobby, e.g., ballroom dancing, or hiking, or playing video games. But to share a PERSON, no, it's different. There are more moving parts, and the wishes/tastes of the "third," and the wishes of that third's other partner(s), etc., etc. Also, her feelings may be stronger for you than for your wife, or vice versa.

Thank you. You have hit the nail right on the head. When it first started, I don’t think any of us had the intention of going this far. It’s crazy how spending that much time and intimacy with another person can develop real feelings. I hate when that happens lol

Our third was actually the first to say "I love you" to us and that’s when things spiraled. It feels like she could get what she wants from us, but is too scared, or feels guilty to leave her current boyfriend.

You are absolutely right. She did break the agreement that she had made when we first got started and has been trying to make up for that mistake ever since. Her selfish side wants her to wake up and leave her boyfriend, because she clearly found what she was looking for with us.

However, like you said, there are so many moving parts to any relationship and trying to share a person is exceptionally difficult. We were able to bond over several shared interests and hobbies, which made everything feel like it could work out. But it turns out that our third is simply hot and cold and very much indecisive.

Throughout my relationship with my wife we have never tried to date independently, and I’m not sure that that’s something that we are looking for. We enjoy the idea of having a third and otherwise sexual partners for threesomes. To be honest, not until this girl that I really seriously consider a polyamorous lifestyle.

 

[Magdlyn]

When it first started, I don’t think any of us had the intention of going this far. It’s crazy how spending that much time and intimacy with another person can develop real feelings. I hate when that happens lol

Our third was actually the first to say "I love you" to us, and that’s when things spiraled. It feels like she could get what she wants from us, but is too scared, or feels guilty to leave her current boyfriend.

You are absolutely right. She did break the agreement that she had made when we first got started and has been trying to make up for that mistake ever since. Her selfish side wants her to wake up and leave her boyfriend, because she clearly found what she was looking for with us.

However, like you said, there are so many moving parts to any relationship and trying to share a person is exceptionally difficult. We were able to bond over several shared interests and hobbies, which made everything feel like it could work out. But it turns out that our third is simply hot and cold and very much indecisive.

Throughout my relationship with my wife we have never tried to date independently, and I’m not sure that that’s something that we are looking for. We enjoy the idea of having a third and otherwise sexual partners for threesomes. To be honest, not until this girl that I really seriously consider a polyamorous lifestyle.

Okay, I read your Introduction and this thread. In your Intro, you said you tried swinging, but "with no luck." What do you mean, no luck? You and/or your wife never actually had sex with anyone?

What kind of luck were you seeking? Female sex partners for you, and partners of both genders for your wife? Something else? How long were you swinging? Did you go to parties/clubs, or just use a website/app, advertising for a unicorn/"girl" to share in a FMF configuration?

It definitely sounds like your "third" is having feelings for you and your wife. This happens organically. It's not "crazy" in the least! It's perfectly normal and biological/hormonal. When we have good sex, certain hormones fire, leading us to be bonded and even obsessed with our new lover. This is nature's way of keeping us together in order to breed and raise babies.

Doing otherwise is based on a couple-centric POV. Other partners are always going to be for play only, less important.

Swingers fight the strong biological urge to bond by using strong and enforced techniques. In case you're not aware, experienced swingers learn to somewhat dehumanize their partners and relationships, to keep them purely sexual and, at most, friendly, by doing certain things:

Prohibiting extended eye contact
Prohibiting kissing on the mouth
Prohibiting dating one-on-one, doing non-sexual but romantic things like having dinner tete a tetes, holding hands, snuggling on the couch watching a movie, and the like
If you start to feel romantic feelings, break up with your sex partner immediately
If you do spouse swaps, don't do PIV
If you do do PIV spouse swaps, do it at the same time as your established partners, in the same room, or at least the same house
Don't have any phone calls or texts with your others, except to just set up a day and time for the next sexual encounter
After sex, get up, get dressed and leave. No cuddling! No pillow talk! If you want to socialize as a triad or quad, everyone is in the same room, or billiard hall, or backyard barbeque. No sneaking off for one-on-one kisses or other intimacies, either physical or emotional, with the other(s).

So, if you are truly averse to dating separately, you and your others, you wife and her others, you must follow these swinger guidelines, or you will end up in the same situation you're in now, or worse.

 

[NightShadow]

Okay, I read your Introduction and this thread. In your Intro, you said you tried swinging, but "with no luck." What do you mean, no luck? You and/or your wife never actually had sex with anyone?

What kind of luck were you seeking? Female sex partners for you, and partners of both genders for your wife? Something else? How long were you swinging? Did you go to parties/clubs, or just use a website/app, advertising for a unicorn/"girl" to share in a FMF configuration?

It definitely sounds like your "third" is having feelings for you and your wife. This happens organically. It's not "crazy" in the least! It's perfectly normal and biological/hormonal. When we have good sex, certain hormones fire, leading us to be bonded and even obsessed with our new lover. This is nature's way of keeping us together in order to breed and raise babies.

Doing otherwise is based on a couple-centric POV. Other partners are always going to be for play only, less important.

Swingers fight the strong biological urge to bond by using strong and enforced techniques. In case you're not aware, experienced swingers learn to somewhat dehumanize their partners and relationships, to keep them purely sexual and, at most, friendly, by doing certain things:

Prohibiting extended eye contact
Prohibiting kissing on the mouth
Prohibiting dating one-on-one, doing non-sexual but romantic things like having dinner tete a tetes, holding hands, snuggling on the couch watching a movie, and the like
If you start to feel romantic feelings, break up with your sex partner immediately
If you do spouse swaps, don't do PIV
If you do do PIV spouse swaps, do it at the same time as your established partners, in the same room, or at least the same house
Don't have any phone calls or texts with your others, except to just set up a day and time for the next sexual encounter
After sex, get up, get dressed and leave. No cuddling! No pillow talk! If you want to socialize as a triad or quad, everyone is in the same room, or billiard hall, or backyard barbeque. No sneaking off for one-on-one kisses or other intimacies, either physical or emotional, with the other(s).

So, if you are truly averse to dating separately, you and your others, you wife and her others, you must follow these swinger guidelines, or you will end up in the same situation you're in now, or worse.

What I meant by having no luck was that we never found anyone that we were able to feel comfortable with, as well as make any meaningful connection. We had attended several swinger parties and had some fun, but never had sex with anyone at those events.

I briefly tried to create an online profile, but shortly after, we met our current third.

I was only joking saying that it’s crazy how that happens. It’s only to be expected when you spend so much time with another person and have amazing sex and stimulating conversations. At the beginning, we did set some pretty clear boundaries, but not so specific where we weren’t allowed to engage in one-on-one dates, kiss, hold hands, etc.

I think we quickly realized after our first encounter that we all wanted more from the relationship. Our third definitely fell in love with us, because that’s how it began to unravel. She started to hide things from her boyfriend, which obviously made the situation worse.

I don’t think love was part of the plan, but it happened. We think her realizing that she actually had feelings for us caused her to shut down and try to salvage her current relationship. It’s unfortunate, because she spends a fair amount of time when she’s with us complaining about her boyfriend. Simply frustrating. It is not our place to try to persuade her to do anything.

Now it has been a while since we have had sex. Since that moment, we shifted our energy to building a better friendship.

Our third still hints that we will all get back together and even brags about us to friends and family.

 

[Magdlyn]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like what you want now is just to be friends with your "third," your "girl"? You stopped having any kind of sex. You'll be friends only, because she is breaking her agreements with her bf, and you don't want to enable her to cheat. Maybe if she makes some new agreements with her bf, or breaks up with him, you and your wife will see if you can have fully loving relationships with her. Two relationships: wife and girl, you and girl.

Otherwise, you might keep looking for another unicorn/third, but this time you and Wife know you don't want mere swinging, casual sex, hookups, FWBs or FBs. You want a fully polyamorous FMF relationship.

If that's the case, you are polyamorous unicorn hunters. You want an equal and balanced triad. I'll just let you know that prescribed triads rarely work out for more than a few weeks to about two years, for many reasons. You can do a search here for "triads" or "unicorn hunting." You can get the book Opening Up. You can read this article: So someone called you a unicorn hunter?

So, someone called you a Unicorn Hunter?

This article is a long, technical discussion of what being a "Unicorn Hunter" means, what's wrong with it, and how people in such a situation can try to avoid the negative stereotypes associated with such behavior and get the things that they are ultimately looking for. It is written in a…

davidlnoble.livejournal.com

 

[NightShadow]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like what you want now is just to be friends with your "third," your "girl"? You stopped having any kind of sex. You'll be friends only, because she is breaking her agreements with her bf, and you don't want to enable her to cheat. Maybe if she makes some new agreements with her bf, or breaks up with him, you and your wife will see if you can have fully loving relationships with her. Two relationships: wife and girl, you and girl.

Otherwise, you might keep looking for another unicorn/third, but this time you and Wife know you don't want mere swinging, casual sex, hookups, FWBs or FBs. You want a fully polyamorous FMF relationship.

If that's the case, you are polyamorous unicorn hunters. You want an equal and balanced triad. I'll just let you know that prescribed triads rarely work out for more than a few weeks to about two years, for many reasons. You can do a search here for "triads" or "unicorn hunting." You can get the book Opening Up. You can read this article: So someone called you a unicorn hunter?

So, someone called you a Unicorn Hunter?

This article is a long, technical discussion of what being a "Unicorn Hunter" means, what's wrong with it, and how people in such a situation can try to avoid the negative stereotypes associated with such behavior and get the things that they are ultimately looking for. It is written in a…

davidlnoble.livejournal.com

Thank you for that. I would love to have more than a friendship with our third and truly make make her our girlfriend. However, you are right-- either a new arrangement will have to be made or she will need to break up with her current boyfriend. Otherwise, we are encouraging her to be unfaithful to her current partner. I know that’s not fair to her. All I can do is wait and see. It has already been about two years, so it is possible that the relationship has run its course. I will try to stay hopeful that something someday will change.

I actually read that article last night about polyamorous unicorn hunters. Very insightful. From what my wife and I want, that does describe us pretty well. It’s unfortunate that it is frowned upon in the community. I know it’s possible, just extremely difficult to find. We had it for just a short while, where it was truly a triad dynamic, and I guess I just really enjoyed that experience and want to find it again.

 

[Magdlyn]

Thank you for that. I would love to have more than a friendship with our third and truly make make her our girlfriend. However, you are right-- either a new arrangement will have to be made or she will need to break up with her current boyfriend. Otherwise, we are encouraging her to be unfaithful to her current partner. I know that’s not fair to her. All I can do is wait and see. It has already been about two years, so it is possible that the relationship has run its course. I will try to stay hopeful that something someday will change.

Well, you can do more than wait and see. You can be firm about your boundaries and encourage her to be honest with herself and her boyfriend. Polyamory isn't easy, and triads are about 1000 times harder than solo dating. You're trying to do several almost impossible things: romantically date someone who agreed to just do casual sex only, AND you're trying to maintain a fair and balanced triad, when that means juggling 3 dyads and 3 metamour arrangements, all at once, as poly newbies.

I actually read that article last night about polyamorous unicorn hunters. Very insightful. From what my wife and I want, that does describe us pretty well.

What part is you and what part is her, though? Think as individuals. Do you both want different qualities in your potential girlfriends? Do you have different ideas for how another significant other should fit into your life?

It’s unfortunate that it is frowned upon in the community.

It's not that it's frowned on, per se. You can do whatever you want.

I know it’s possible, just extremely difficult to find. We had it for just a short while, where it was truly a triad dynamic, and I guess I just really enjoyed that experience and want to find it again.

That's just what I'm getting at: it's going to be short-lived. They are always short-lived because the dynamic is impossible to maintain. I'm not sure you got the gist of the article. What you "enjoyed" was a fleeting fantasy, built on NRE and mismatched expectations and needs, not a full-fledged working relationship (or actually several relationships working together).