Tips on transitioning a monogamous relationship needed

[YesThisIsDog242]

That's the question, isn't it I wasn't exactly happy with the intensity of my limerance (it wasn't reciprocated in the same way), it was nice but I struggled a lot too. And no, I didn't find any easy-to-apply tricks.
But look, the example I gave was extreme. I remember it because it was extreme.
Unlike your experience, I didn't fall out of love with my partner. I was not sure that wouldn't happen, but my feelings for him didn't change a bit. There was just a new storm of emotion on top of that, I was more sexual in general and I had these intrusive thoughts, fantasies and cravings.

I would take care to schedule dates and do nice things as much as or more than usual (this was very possible, because the new relationship wasn't intense). I did my best to let go of those thoughts when with my partner and bring my attention to the present moment - it didn't always work, but it was sure worth the effort. I asked for understanding as I needed to talk it out a few times. I took a lot of alone time just daydreaming.

There was no question of leaving on my mind. I don't know if that would be different if the NRE was reciprocated. I was out of the very worst after about two months, but now I haven't seen that man in half a year and I still had to think of him on Christmas. Lol. I would have liked to meet the person who got close to me this year...

So the only real answer I can give is, you do the best you can.
It's perhaps better to admit you are distracted and making an effort despite it than trying to keep it a dirty secret. It's no use to blame [yourself] for those interfering thoughts and no use to blame [yourself] for sometimes scratching that itch by checking your phone on the toilet [and perhaps returning to your date slightly less distracted], but it's not good to always give in and just go text and leave your partner hanging. You try to strike a balance. As best you can.


Yes, what I say is, the first part is not helpful in managing your feelings. It's not actually good to know how much time she spends texting during your time apart (and it doesn't matter unless it means she'll neglect the dishes for the whole week). The second one does matter a lot and I get it. Does she?

I don't think I agree with your take on this.

Their partner has already failed on several occasions to be honest during negotiations, and to follow through with them. To continue to negotiate is likely going to just lead to more and more dwindling of expectations, and it seems like often tends to be OP who is making compromises.

Your points are genuinely good if this was a situation that entailed consensual polyamory, but focusing on what OP can do to better practice polyamory is putting Band-Aids on a burning ship. Consensual polyamory would not be possible without significant professional intervention and a drastic change in behavior from their wife, and they have said that their wife has little interest in couples or individual counseling. In my own situation, I only started actually regaining agency when I stopped trying to put more band-aids on. Continuing to re-negotiate with someone who has shown that they don't care about your needs is a major energy and emotional investment.

 

[Tinwen]

I don't think I agree with your take on this.

Their partner has already failed on several occasions to be honest during negotiations, and to follow through with them. To continue to negotiate is likely going to just lead to more and more dwindling of expectations, and it seems like often tends to be OP who is making compromises.

Your points are genuinely good if this was a situation that entailed consensual polyamory, but focusing on what OP can do to better practice polyamory is putting Band-Aids on a burning ship. Consensual polyamory would not be possible without significant professional intervention and a drastic change in behavior from their wife, and they have said that their wife has little interest in couples or individual counseling. In my own situation, I only started actually regaining agency when I stopped trying to put more band-aids on. Continuing to re-negotiate with someone who has shown that they don't care about your needs is a major energy and emotional investment.

Thank you for saying that, and I'm totally fine with your take. It's quite likely you are right.

The OP asks how this is supposed to work in polyamory, which she states she would be willing to try/label their relationship with. I'm covering more on that branch. It's on them to decide if there is a glaring gap that can't be bridged or not.

I'm not the right person for breakup recommendations.

 

[YesThisIsDog242]

Thank you for saying that, and I'm totally fine with your take. It's quite likely you are right.

The OP asks how this is supposed to work in polyamory, which she states she would be willing to try/label their relationship with. I'm covering more on that branch. It's on them to decide if there is a glaring gap that can't be bridged or not.

I'm not the right person for breakup recommendations.

I apologize if any of that came off aggressively. These types of situations hit very close to home for me, so I tend to have some very strong convictions about them.

Your points are valuable, and honestly they're even valuable in monogamous relationships when considering how your partner handles their time with friends and family.

I think what I've learned is that in certain relationships, taking accountability can be exploited. I tried to consider how I could do better in my relationship when my partner began to openly date someone else (we were not polyamorous). But I noticed that my ex very often would use my self-reflections as a way to avoid reflecting on the consequences of his own actions. It also caused me additional emotional distress because it would lead me to blame myself for the state of our relationship. A common thing that relationship counselors do when they recognize abusive dynamics at play in a relationship is to pause the counseling and recommend that the couple takes a lot of time in individualized counseling.

It can also unintentionally put pressure on someone to take part in fixing chaos they didn't create. And this can lead to them feeling responsible for fixing a situation while the source of the chaos continues with little recourse. Sometimes, it can even be a type of unintentional enabling.

In a relationship where both partners care, accountability and negotiating is extremely important. But it can open up opportunities for exploitation if the relationship has toxic/abusive dynamics within it.

 

[Sisilisko]

I'll write down a few random thoughts and associations.

I used to have lots of sexual phantasies and masturbation during my childhood and teen years, but my interest in sex always waned by the 2 year mark when in a relationship. By the end of my marriage (9 years together, 8 married), I have identified as grey ace. I've thought that I can become sexual thanks to NRE, but then it always dies away, and I've also been told it's normal for women lose interest in sex as they age.

I got divorced at the age of 37, and lo and behold, the next 2 years were the most sexually surprising years of my life. Then got into a long-term relationship, sexual interest faded again, and I entered (early) menopause, which seemed to explain my lack of interest in sex; again, I've assumed that, this time, that's it. My bf broke up with me two months ago, and guess what? Masturbation and sexual phantasies are back as alive as ever.

In other words: at least for me, I've always felt asexual while in a relationship that was also troubled in other ways-- I did not feel heard by my partners, I did not feel loved and respected. Please don't assume your sexuality won't light up for anyone but your current wife. One thing I'd like to remember the next time I identify as ace: current feelings of complete disinterest in anything sexual don't predict future interest after a major change of context.

Since the break-up, I've been gathering some quotes that I find inspiring. Many of these help me build a new understanding of what happened in the relationship with Fasaani; I may be projecting, but your relationship seems to have some common features, possibly even more pronounced. Maybe some of these quotes will ring a bell:

Secure attachment is an embodied experience based on how we consistently respond and attune to each other, rather than derived from a relationship structure. (Polysecure)

Refuse to shrink yourself to maintain proximity. If conflicts arise because of your needs being repeatedly unmet, allow yourself to disentangle from the relationship. (ChatGPT)

For an anxiously attached person, it’s a good idea to look for specific qualities in a partner that won’t activate an insecure attachment system with new relationship experiences. Amir Levine, MD, author of "Attached," defines it as CARRP: consistency, availability, reliability, responsiveness, and predictability.
https://www.verywellmind.com/how-to-heal-an-anxious-attachment-style-8643714

Signs a person is not ready for a relationship include:
- they disappear or shut down whenever there's even minor conflict: a healthy relationship requires repair and reconnection, not retreat
- they avoid taking accountability, never apologizing, or offering apologies that shift the blame onto you: a real apology does not give excuses, and is accompanied by attempts to do better
- they show little curiosity about your inner world, emotions, or interests
- they consistently suppress or avoid their emotions, no matter how intense
- they seem to have ongoing issues or falling-outs with many different people

Once you cross a certain line, every extra unit of self-sacrifice buys less good for others and more damage for you, and then eventually starts buying damage for them too. (????)

If you cannot ask someone for what you want for fear of their response, it doesn’t matter how 'reasonable' the ask is. That fear is underneath every ask, and every time you want to ask for anything it will have to go through an extra processing loop in your mind. It’s not about if someone will or won’t give you what you want/need at that point. It’s more fundamental.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2004899008863485994

A trauma bond is a form of addiction. (general knowledge)

And finally, multiple quotes from a (now removed) video that I've recently found very enlightening regarding the effects my relationship with Fasaani have had on me:

- They don't ask you directly to lose yourself-- they condition you into believing that losing yourself is the only way to keep them. Their emotional distance teaches you that expressing your needs leads to silence. Their inconsistency teaches you that stability is too much to ask for. Their withdrawal teaches you that being honest with your feelings is dangerous. And over time you learn to bend, you learn to swallow your hurt, you learn to tone down your love, you learn to exist in a half version of yourself, believing that if you could just stay easy, low pressure and uncomplicated, things might finally work. That's how self-abandonment happens, not in one moment, but in many small ones.
- Their inconsistency becomes your insecurity. Their silence becomes your overthinking. Their emotional avoidance becomes your self-doubt.
- Losing yourself doesn't happen at once. It happens every time you rationalize their lack of effort. Every time you tolerate their emotional distance. Every time you ignore your intuition because your heart wants to hope. Every time you tell yourself that your needs are too much. That's how the slow erosion of self-worth begins.
- They believe that you will always need them more than they need you. Your hope made them feel significant. Your pain ironically made them feel safe. They are used to being forgiven quickly, taken back easily, reassured endlessly.
- They never expected that the same heart that once loved them fiercely would one day love itself enough to let them go.
- The real question isn't whether they love me, the real question is whether I trust myself to stay whole.
- The self-respecting version of me doesn't accept a sacrifice of identity or dignity in order to be in a relationship.

 

[MeeraReed]

For a polyamorous marriage to work, your wife would have to actually admit that she is polyamorous and wants other romantic and sexual connections (even if the sex would remain just sexting). She would have to admit that she was more than "just friends" with the other woman and that she wants the freedom to have more-than-friends relationships.

No matter how open-minded you are, no matter how willing you are to compromise on what you want and try allowing your wife to be poly so she can be herself...it won't work because the obstacle is her. She is not being honest with you nor with herself.

May I ask, what you are wife's good qualities? Because right now, she sounds selfish and uncaring and unkind.

I don't think that your request for her to not text on weekends was controlling or too restrictive, given the context you've described here.

 

[Confusedspouse]

For a polyamorous marriage to work, your wife would have to actually admit that she is polyamorous and wants other romantic and sexual connections (even if the sex would remain just sexting). She would have to admit that she was more than "just friends" with the other woman and that she wants the freedom to have more-than-friends relationships.

No matter how open-minded you are, no matter how willing you are to compromise on what you want and try allowing your wife to be poly so she can be herself...it won't work because the obstacle is her. She is not being honest with you nor with herself.

True.

May I ask, what you are wife's good qualities? Because right now, she sounds selfish and uncaring and unkind.

Fun to be around. Good with our dogs. Decent with money. We dont usually argue much. We used to spend lots of time together and travel.

So we have been talking. She said she wants me to be most important. And that she crossed lines with her "friend" by prioritizing her over me. She claims the sexual remarks were "jokes". I explained the line was crossed for what I consider monogamy big time. She says she wants to stay with monogamy but be free to sexually "joke" with others. I told her we can try but it feels like shes wanting more from "friends". She is still mourning the woman she was obsessed with, acting like a break up and being "lonely" without her ( even when with me ). So... maybe I can get more from her when she gets over the breakup.

 

[dingedheart]

I want to applaud you for admitting or acknowledging some not-so-flattering behavior. All too often, there’s a chorus of "Try keep your NRE in check," and then the glossing over of "I’ve made some mistakes/caused some damage under the influence of NRE,“ not a specific situation with possible real emotional reactions.

Again, thank you for sharing.

NRE works like an addiction too. The first few months are crazy. It's really hard for some people to not think about their new lovers every waking minute, to focus on work, and not to check their phone all the time. It's such a powerful hormonal cocktail and the craving is so hard to manage. Your wife is not alone in that.

There was literally a moment this spring when I had great sex with my partner, and was lying in his arms all giddy afterwards, and realized I had the need to text my crush. I was kidding myself beforehand that I was not really in love, that he'd just awakened my need for more physical touch, but that moment was like WTF, ok, I'm in limerance REAL BAD. I made all my efforts to be present with my partner during those critical months, but this stuff still happened.

Basking in the afterglow of sex, you realized you needed to text your new crush. Can you remember if the need was chemical, or was it something logistical, or related to scheduling, i.e., something valid?

Do you remember how long it took you to respond? Did you roll off and grab your phone, or did you excuse yourself and do it then?

Like your comments suggest, how people handle these events definitely has an impact on how they’re received. The more overt, or blind to their behavior, or ham-handed someone is trying to juggle multiple relationships, the more damage to the existing relationship is going to occur.

What else I think is great about this is the fact that you and your partner have been doing this for a good chunk of time, so to have those feeling and those challenges at your stage should emphasize the magnitude of the forces involved.

Besides making a conscious effort to be more present with you partner, did you have any discussions letting him know about these intrusive thoughts, or that you were suffering from NRE? Or did you try to downplay it and keep it in its own box?

I can see people with a good amount of history with or in poly having this discussion and it not being too threatened or triggered by it. On the other hand, a guy getting the poly-identity bomb dropped on him on his 14-yr wedding anniversary. with his wife being on 3 different dating apps, and her emotional ride while cycling through the frogs, with 1st dates through 3rd-4th dates until she found her current NRE prince-- that discussion can be really difficult, if not completely...

I personally know another member here, a recently poly-bombed guy, who made the mistake and asked his wife, "How often do you think about your bf?" I don’t recall what prompted that question. It happened early morning as he was heading off to work.

Maybe her not reading the room correctly, or being in an NRE state, she answered without hesitation, "ALL THE TIME" (essentially like you said “every waking moment").

He then asked, "When do you think about us?" meaning him and their 2 kids. There came a super-long pause (or maybe that’s just how it felt or how he remembered it), then some equivocating or spin, which he said made the original answer feel worse.

And then off to work we go, hi ho hi ho. It wasnt the proper time or place for that kind of discussion, anyway.

Edit: (I also recall after I posted) she later called him on his drive to work, which if memory serves, was 20 mins-ish. She called him, let’s say, between 12-15 minutes after he left. So what? Right? Well, guess who got the actual first call? Not her mother and not her BFF. Does that, or should that matter, if you felt being poly-bombed was the equivalent of being friend-zoned, and then subsequent acts and her own words supported that? Yes, it might matter.

Your wife does need to work on her ethics and prioritize your relationship, if she wants to keep you.

It’s interesting how those in the fog don’t seem to get this principle. I remember when I first got here the common “advice"/refrain was, "Yeah, it’s rough, and people in the NRE fog can be thoughtless, stupid pigs. BUT good news, it doesn’t last forever, typically 6 months to 2 yrs." So my next thought is "2 fucking yrs? There won’t be a marriage for her to jump back into."

I hope you don't endure this treatment forever, although you have high stakes (your only experience of working sexuality so far) at play. I don't know if we can help you, if she's not willing to listen.

Like anything else, basic cost vs benefits. When do you deserve and expect more?

But focusing on what the other people get (more attention, etc.) instead of what you want and need is a classic newbie mistake.

I’m not sure I’d call it a mistake, or lift it to be a classic mistake, because everyone is drawing upon the framework of their recent history with their spouse or partner. The rules of the road are never spelled out that clearly when transitioning. The general talk is about heart capacity and feeling for one don’t diminish the other, NOT how finite resources get divided based on needs vs fairness, or priority vs seniority, etc.

Is shifting the reality the winning head game, or shifting expectations? With these sets of factors, does it matter until he’s completely let down by her again?

As a thought exercise, try reframing the situation in a way that doesn't involve other lovers: Maybe she's doing 30h/week rock climbing instead of messaging, or she constantly checks her phone to see the stock market. Would you feel the same? How would you frame your request now? Maybe it's the same, maybe it isn't...

IMO, it actually shouldn’t matter. Someone checked out is still checked out. How checked out must it be to where you stop calling it a romantic relationship, and call it a roommate that you sometimes hook up with on occasion?

 

[GalaGirl]

You seem to need to air out somewhere. I don't know if this helps you any. This stuck out to me. I mean all this kindly, ok?

Internet people might be able to help with one or two things, but you have a lot going on. I think you might want to talk to a counselor so you get some support through this as you figure out what you want to do long term. From where I sit, you two sound like you have grown apart, and no longer want the same things, and might be dragging out a breakup. I could be wrong in that impression.

So I am getting the feeling she just isn't capable of monogamy. At all. She agrees to boundaries because "she should," and violates them behind my back. She says she's OK, but then admits feeling "restricted."

So she's not especially honest and tells lies. She has trouble being upfront about what she actually wants and owning it. What that is rooted in? That's her personal work to do.

But the impact of a dishonest partner on you is still going to be ugh. It erodes trust. You can't feel emotionally safe.

Now she says our relationship is "too restrictive" and she can't have rules about how to act with others.

You mentioned that several times in your posts. But who is the one making the shared agreements with you? WIFE, when she doesn't have to even agree.

You aren't restricting her any. She can say, "No, thanks. I do not agree to that" and be more honest and more willing to take personal responsibility. You might not like that answer, but you'd at least be getting some honesty and basic respect. Instead, she makes agreements she doesn't actually intend to keep. She just tells you whatever in the moment, and then does what she wants later. And you get to feel ugh and disrespected.

You don't seem to enjoy this kind of dynamic. You can't feel emotionally or mentally safe like that when you can't trust her at her word.

Beyond her completely going over every line short of actual sex with someone else, our relationship is good. I love her. I would rather not divorce.

I get you love her and the good parts. But is the relationship actually healthy?

Could a trial separation for a year's lease bring needed clarity? Divorce is expensive and not something to do at the snap of a finger. But you do not enjoy living with this kind of stress. You see she's not going to change her behaviors. You are trying to "get ok with it" so you can avoid a breakup. But if you want monogamy and she doesn't, this is just not compatible anymore. I think you might be in anticipatory grief, maybe the bargaining stage.

It would be one-sided. I have zero interest in anyone else.

No. If you are going to go there, or have trial separation, both sides can date other people. Then if you don't date, it is because you don't feel like it. You decided. And not because you don't get the option at all.

I think you could talk to a counselor about everything that is going on so you get support. Not because you want polyamory, but because they've seen this sort of thing before and may be able to help you sort your feelings out and what you want to do next.

Polyamory-Friendly Professionals Directory

Polyamory-Friendly Professionals Directory

www.polyfriendly.org

Perhaps wife is willing to do couples counseling and get it better together so her other dating life isn't dinging you like this. But her willingness and her ability are not things you can control.

Right now, it's basically a lot of "poly-hell" stuff on top of being allergic to taking personal responsibility for how her behaviors affect you. And not even calling her other dating, "Yes, I'm dating other people" upfront. They're just "friends."

kathylabriola.com - ARE YOU IN POLY HELL?

COMMON PITFALLS IN OPEN RELATIONSHIPS Many people who are in a primary relationship stumble into an outside relationship either by choice or by chance, and once involved, things can go beautifully or can go terribly awry. Here are some of the most common problems that develop and some ideas for

www.kathylabriola.com

From what she has said, she wants it open, but just no actual sex (she isn't much into sex)... but lots of innuendo/flirting/lead up to the actual sex bit, and intense connections that look like infatuated teens in college attached at the hip.

Until she eventually wants sex. Then what?

And why would you have to agree to practice being open? She's already doing it on her side. She could be single and do it more ethically.

Why do you have to be around for this, especially if it makes you unhappy?

Her idea of "friends" is NRE, 6-10 hours a day talking to them on the phone, deep intimate conversations, flirting, sexual remarks, telling them every detail of our marriage (despite me asking her not to).

That is "dating other people." That is not "friends," to me. Plus...

She doesn't want to share details with me. She prefers to keep these other partners and their interactions totally private.

So she gives them basic privacy, but not you. That's not ok.

Her telling you their stuff so she breaks confidences with ALL people is not "fair." It is sloppy hinging.

These types of relationships feel like cheating. I feel like second place. She says she needs them or else she feels lonely and isolated and caged.

She IS cheating on agreements if the current agreements are for monogamy, just calling it "friends" to get around it.

I don't think you two are compatible. I think you are having a hard time imagining breaking up. So you are kind of in the bargaining stage of grief trying to make it work ANYWAY. Could that be true?

I'm willing to attempt to give up monogamy, but I have no idea where to even start. Anyone have advice?

If monogamy is your preferred way of going, why would you give it up?

Is this a healthy relationship?

https://rhntc.org/sites/default/files/resources/rhntc_hlthy_rlshp_wheel_spectrum_10-13-2022.pdf

I really think you could talk to a counselor. You sound super sad and like you need support. Rather than start a new thing you don't really want called polyamory or ENM, maybe it's ok to reassess actual compatibility here, and not bend yourself into pretzels.

So I'm trying to figure out if we can meet her needs and not make me feel horrible. (I ended up in therapy and on antidepressants because of her relationship with the woman, so I could function in my job.)

Maybe it's ok not to have to take medicine just to survive your life? Maybe it's ok to talk with a counselor about divorce and what that might be like?

Polyamory is not magic. It's just another relationship structure. If she can't keep her current monogamous agreements very well, what would have changed in her character and in her behavior to make her keep her poly agreements, and not just cheat on those? Like just saying whatever to get to do it, but then doing something else behind your back?

I imagine this is really tough. But ask yourself the hard questions. You only get the one life to live. You also deserve happiness. Not just wife.

Taking turns being miserable/caged might be a weird kind of "fair," but it doesn't help either you or wife any. Like monogamy for a while where she's unhappy, and then open for a while where you are unhappy. It's ok for you two to change to exes so you can be happy on your own. There is nothing wrong with "exes and friends" if you both want that. There's also nothing wrong with "plain exes."

You have changed before. There was a time you didn't know each other, then you were friends, then dating, then engaged, then married, then living together, in whatever order those happened in. This is another change.

Do not subsume yourself to a relationship and abandon yourself. Ask the hard questions of yourself, including whether being with wife is now preventing you from healing from past abuse/trauma because it's bringing new hardships in here.

I explained the line was crossed for what I consider monogamy big time.

What is the consequence then for her crossing the line? When is it a dealbreaker? Because you can forgive this, but you don't HAVE to continue as married.

Jokes make all the people feel good. This isn't "joking." This doesn't address other poor behaviors, like texting people while on a date, or cuddling with you. What will be done about those?

I told her we can try, but it feels like she's wanting more from "friends."

Stop calling them "friends." Call it "your other dating partners." Even if she's going to be all vague about it, you don't have to.

She is still mourning the woman she was obsessed with, acting like it was a breakup, and being "lonely" without her (even when with me ). So, maybe I can get more from her when she gets over the breakup.

Is she even calling it a breakup? If she's not honest with herself, and not honest with you, and the good parts of the relationship are basically this...

Fun to be around. Good with our dogs. Decent with money. We don't usually argue much. We used to spend lots of time together and travel.

You don't stay in a relationship that is currently "meh" just because you had some good travel in the past.

Maybe it's ok to let the romance go and change to being travel buddies? Or pet buddies? And that's it? You deal with your money, she deals with hers?

It's ok to give people second chances, but it cannot be a hundred chances. You end up a doormat. If she crosses lines again, you could end it, with regrets and sadness, but end it, because this is NOT how you want to live. You could actually ENFORCE your personal boundaries and dealbreakers.

I hope things get better for you one way or another. I hope you consider counseling for just you, even if she doesn't want to go.

I'm sorry this is happening this way.

Galagirl

 

[Tinwen]

Basking in the afterglow of sex, you realized you need to text your new crush. Can you remember if the need was chemical, or was it something logistical or related to scheduling, i.e., something valid? Do you remember how long it took you to respond? Did you roll off and grab your phone, or did you excuse yourself and do it then?

No logistics, purely chemical. I must object to calling practicalities valid and feelings invalid though.

I didn't grab my phone of course, my partner never knew. I was 'lucky' though because partner was almost ready to get up, so when my nonverbal cues suggested a slight increase in distance, he did. I texted then, after hesitating if I should, because it was so bizzare. It felt good though. Like having both of the people I love by my side, if not physically, just metaphorically. I realize we have the capacity to feel that. It was not that weird after all...

What else I think about this is great is the fact you and your partner have been doing this for a good chunk of time, so to have those feeling and those challenges at your stage should emphasize the magnitude of the forces involved.

Yes, but we have a pretty stable 'V'. I haven't had (m)any outside relationships. I still consider myself monogam-ish in my preference to bond strongly, just with the capacity to have feelings for more than one.
But yes, the intensity is insane for some people, including myself.

Besides making a conscious effort to be more present with you partner, didn't you have any discussion letting him know about these intrusive thoughts. or that you were suffering from NRE? Or did you try to down play it and keep it in its own box?

I was very open about that. It would be hard to hide.
For this particular rope partner, Idealist took it quite well. I think the long-distance and intermittent character helped him a lot to feel secure.
It's true we can speak about NRE, because we have been doing this for a long time, but perhaps more importantly, because we're both philosophically on board. Feelings are "allowed", that's why it's called "polyamory."

I realize this is hard for many newly open couples, but frankly, many monogamous couples, where people are prone to getting crushes, are also able to speak about their NRE. They realize it's not talking that destroys relationships, and they are able to maintain intimacy in this way.

(Some hobbies lead to crushes more often than others. Like live action roleplay, lol. I knew a couple which both came home with an insane crush from the same game , no intention to actually start a new relationship, but all those glowy and intrusive thoughts of someone else, so they talked and supported each other through it.)

 

[dingedheart]

No logistics, purely chemical. I must object to calling practicalities valid and feelings invalid, though.

I just meant in that moment something which would be “big enough"/time-sensitive enough to take you out of that moment.

I didn't grab my phone, of course. My partner never knew. I was 'lucky' though, because partner was almost ready to get up, so when my nonverbal cues suggested a slight increase in distance, he did.

Do you think it might have mattered if he had known? Say you made another choice, and grabbed your phone and texted straight away.

I texted then, after hesitating if I should, because it was so bizarre.

Why bizarre? Because it hadn’t happened to you up til that point, or something else?

It felt good, though, like having both of the people I love by my side, if not physically, just metaphorically. I realize we have the capacity to feel that. It was not that weird after all...

Yes, I’m sure. Actions supporting NRE should feel good.

Yes, but we have a pretty stable 'V'. I haven't had (m)any outside relationships. I still consider myself monogam-ish in my preference to bond strongly, just with the capacity to have feelings for more than one.
But yes, the intensity is insane for some people, including myself.

I think it’s nice/productive that you were willing to share that story to give perspective.

I was very open about that. It would be hard to hide.
For this particular rope partner, Idealist took it quite well. I think the long distance and intermittent character helped him a lot to feel secure.

Wow, you’ve made a really interesting point here… You’re suggesting some NRE behavior is dismissed and/or overlooked, depending on the perceived threat. In those situations, I’ve never thought of it that way, because I just thought rude is rude. Golden rule kind of thing.

It's true we can speak about NRE, because we have been doing this for a long time, but perhaps more importantly, because we're both philosophically on board. Feelings are "allowed." That's why it's called "polyamory."

Yes, that probably plays a huge role.

I realize this is hard for many newly-open couples, but frankly, many monogamous couples, where people are prone to getting crushes, are also able to speak about their NRE. They realize it's not talking that destroys relationships, and they are able to maintain intimacy in this way.

I think the main difference is the level of security, and also what types of NRE-driven behavior are occurring. Calling someone the wrong name during sex is different than "I think so and so is hot."

Some hobbies lead to crushes more often than others. Like live action roleplay, lol. I knew a couple which both came home with an insane crush from the same game, with no intention to actually start a new relationship, but all those glowy and intrusive thoughts of someone else, so they talked and supported each other through it.

As they should.

 

[Tinwen]

Do you think it might or could have mattered if he had known? Say you made another choice and grabbed your phone and texted straight away.

That would indeed be rude and potentially hurtful.

Why bizarre? Because it hadn’t happen to you up til that point, or something else?

Well, yes, I didn't have that experience before.
Plus, don't you think NRE overwhelming your reward system to the point where there is a "higher reward" than aftercare is bizarre?

Wow, you’ve made a really interesting point here. You’re suggesting some NRE behavior is dismissed and/or overlooked depending on the perceived threat. In those situations I’ve never thought of it that way, because I just thought rude is rude. Golden rule kind of thing.

I'd say the opposite is even more common - the reactions to NRE behaviors are out of proportion because of the sense of thread.
I think once NRE hits you have very limited influence on your partner's reaction.
Say your partner finds you staring out of of the window thinking of your lover. He could take offense in your absence mindedness, or he could think it's cute. You have little control about either - that's on him.

 

[dingedheart]

That would indeed be rude and potentially hurtful.

Yes, and the sticky part is how that pain/hurtfulness is graded on the other side. Is it taken as a one-off paper cut, or is it filed as a growing pattern?

Well, yes, I didn't have that experience before.
Plus, don't you think NRE overwhelming your reward system to the point where there is a "higher reward" than aftercare is bizarre?

WOW... What a great point. Never thought of it that way. Really demonstrates the power/gravitational pull of NRE.

I'd say the opposite is even more common - the reactions to NRE behaviors are out of proportion because of the sense of thread.

I think overwhelming newbies trying to convert any kind of longstanding marriage or relationship are going to have negative reactions NRE missteps. How proportional to the “threat“ is super subjective, and 100% in tied to how safe they feel inside the relationship, and what the baseline of said “security“ felt like in the yrs leading up to the new transition point, and then, what it feels like now that the dynamic has changed.
I wonder how much sensing a “vibe“ or an energy shift plays a role in these situations. I’ve chatted with quite a few people on the topic of NRE insults and injuries, and many talk about sensing an energy disconnect even before the paper cut or body blow happens. I wonder if sensing that vibe causes hypersensitivity and disproportionate reactions. "Threat“ aside, can anyone rightly/fairly judge someone’s reaction in some sort of proportional context? You can make the argument that there’s very little threat, but that doesn’t excuse the underlying behavior. It doesn’t change the underlying energy or vibe shift.

I think once NRE hits, you have very limited influence on your partner's reaction.

Yes, and maybe more so in the other direction, as well.

Say your partner finds you staring out of of the window thinking of your lover. He could take offense in your absent-mindedness, or he could think it's cute. You have little control about either. That's on him.

Ok, I think staring out a window, being lost in thought, and perhaps not present for a few moments is way different than being lost in your phone texting while on a date with your spouse. In one scenario, we have to be a mind reader “to actually know“ the cause of the distraction, and in the other, it’s super obvious who or where that energy and focus is being diverted to.

And yes, good, bad or indifferent reactions are always going to be on the person having the reaction, no matter what the situation.

 

[Tinwen]

Ok I think staring out a window, and being lost in thought, and perhaps not present for a few moments is way different than being lost in your phone texting while on a date with your spouse. In one scenario, we have to be a mind reader “to actually know“ the cause of the distraction, and in the other it’s super obvious who or where that energy and focus is being diverted to.

I agree there's a difference, I chose a harmless example to take right and wrong out of it. (Actually, with the phone, guessing/assumptions are also involved - they could be texting a friend or posting commentary on this forum.)
As usually with politeness/rudeness there are some extremes that almost everyone agrees on, then there is a huuuge greyzone that... depends. On circumstances, but mostly on the people involved.
I tend to think less about "missteps" than you do, because I don't believe there is a well defined moral standard in how people should behave and treat their partners in NRE - imho both partners should do the best they are capable of, as usual. (I do realize this is safe to apply to well-meaning decent partners and it's possible to have abusive and neglecting dynamics that should not be given as much grace - as might be possibly the case in this thread.)

Anyway, we've hijacked the thread. I hope the OP already got the commentary they needed to hear and I for them.

 

[Confusedspouse]

Anyway, we've hijacked the thread. I hope the OP already got the commentary they needed to hear and I for them.

It is OK. I kinda find the discussion interesting.

As for me, I think regardless of how my wife wants to call her relationships- they go beyond typical friendships in a traditional monogamous relationship. She says she doesnt feel like someone is a friend if they arent having long, intimate talks daily / nearly daily. That the average few hours a week with a friend that studies show most have would be too little. That she needs basically a relationship level commitment to / from friends. And that she wants it to be separate from us, with all the privacy of a traditional relationship. She wants the emotional intimacy / support / connection of a full other relationship without sex, but with sexual banter / flirting.

She seems to be describing wanting a queerplatonic partnership, rather than just friends. That could very easily develop over years into something romantic/ sexual given the degree of intimacy she is wanting. All the normal boundaries to keep monogamy safe would be removed.

She also told me a bit about her past abusive partner and his behavior.

So. I think I am going to give her time to grieve the break up with this woman and then negotiate what exactly it is she wants. She doesnt seem to know herself yet.

 

[GalaGirl]

Well... maybe while you wait for her to get past the break up, you clarify to yourself what YOU want and seek. What is and is not acceptable.

Then when you and wife talk again you can evaluate if what she wants aligns with what you want or if it does not. See if you two are still compatible.

GG

 

[Confusedspouse]

Well... maybe while you wait for her to get past the break up, you clarify to yourself what YOU want and seek. What is and is not acceptable.

That... isn't an easy question to answer. I have always wanted typical monogamy. That is also how my nature is for myself. How much sharing I can handle I am not sure I can say until / unless I experience the attempt. How do you know where your limits are ?

 

[YesThisIsDog242]

That... isn't an easy question to answer. I have always wanted typical monogamy. That is also how my nature is for myself. How much sharing I can handle I am not sure I can say until / unless I experience the attempt. How do you know where your limits are ?

I think you've already stated them, but it doesn't seem like you're adhering to them.

Considering dealbreakers can be helpful, but it's also helpful to think about what your fantasies/desires are, even ones that currently seem like a pipe dream. Like "in my ideal partner, they would be like this/fill this need:". It's helpful ofc to consider what needs can be filled by friends and family vs. a romantic partner.

I think she does know what she wants, even if it's very unconventional and arguably pretty unsustainable. It seems like she wants to dedicate a vast amount of emotional energy and time into these emotionally intimate relationships. I think that's where she's at at the moment. I know you said previously that she could spend a majority of a day texting/talking to someone else. Is this a dynamic that you think would be beneficial to you?

Also, does she ever sext these people? If so, I'm not sure there's anything that's really differing it from a traditional (maybe even extra-intensive) long distance relationship besides avoiding the label.

 

[Confusedspouse]

I think you've already stated them, but it doesn't seem like you're adhering to them.

Considering dealbreakers can be helpful, but it's also helpful to think about what your fantasies/desires are, even ones that currently seem like a pipe dream. Like "in my ideal partner, they would be like this/fill this need:". It's helpful ofc to consider what needs can be filled by friends and family vs. a romantic partner.

My ideal partner would be honest, spend lots of quality time together, be open, be happy hanging around the house with our dogs.

My pipe dream I would find someone like me who is monogamous by nature, not just out of moral choice. I dont find anyone else attractive. I dont get celebrity crushes. I dont want porn or to flirt. I truly want no one but my partner. There is zero interest in anyone else. And never will be. Not as long as I allow romantic feelings with them. But, I also know I am the oddball among humans. So, I try very hard to be understanding that most people (pretty much everyone else) will still be interested in others. I do wish I could just be "normal" and experience it too though, would make relationships easier if I could do more than just intellectually reason it and actually understand by experience.

But how far an interest in someone else can be ? I dont know. What point can I not handle ?

I think she does know what she wants, even if it's very unconventional and arguably pretty unsustainable. It seems like she wants to dedicate a vast amount of emotional energy and time into these emotionally intimate relationships. I think that's where she's at at the moment. I know you said previously that she could spend a majority of a day texting/talking to someone else. Is this a dynamic that you think would be beneficial to you?

Beneficial to me ? No. Not if it takes time from us.

Also, does she ever sext these people? If so, I'm not sure there's anything that's really differing it from a traditional (maybe even extra-intensive) long distance relationship besides avoiding the label.

She doesnt sext. But, she flirts heavily. Like... joking about being turned on by XYZ. Or comments about being tied to chairs. Letting them say stuff like "oh, you are on all fours, what should I do with you?" And "Can I come bed with you?" Is met with "if you can fight a spot away from the dogs". But no actual sexting. She defends it all as "jokes", but saying that stuff in private to these intimate "friends" seems more than a "joke".

 

[Tinwen]

How much does she see/wants to see these 'friends' in person?

Otherwise I agree that you both already know what you want, at least in broad strokes.

Most boundaries/limits/preferences can be anticipated (eg. by imagining the situation and observing your feelings), but unfortunately a some of them are found only once they are crossed.

 

[Confusedspouse]

How much does she see/wants to see these 'friends' in person?

The only gate for it not being in person is her gender dysphoria. She has been on hormones for years, but no surgeries yet and is just starting voice therapy, so she doesn't want to associate much in person with people until she "passes". Right now she wants social events about every other week? But, if she felt better about her body, it would likely be more often. She doesn't like going out dressed as a girl, with B cup breasts and honestly a model figure (tiny waist, long legs) and then having an adams apple and sounding like a guy. So, she prefers to do online hangouts more right now. Even with locals. She doesnt much like going on dates with me either because of it anymore. The more her shape fits what she wants, the less she likes the parts that don't.