Polyamorous love triangle

[redpepper]

The funny thing with karma is, that often things are the complete opposite of what we commonly think they are. It's interesting how much everyone stresses the cheating part of this story. That's the commonly accepted view, and how most people would react. I would have said the same things not too long ago. In my opinion now though, in terms of karma (truth, enlightenment, or whatever you want to call it), it was loveless of her to ask him to become her boyfriend when she felt she couldn't handle his relationship with me. And it was loveless of him to accept it. The cheating was just the natural consequence of this behavior, something that made the contradiction visible, if you want to put it that way. Without the cheating, it would be exactly the same lie, just covered a little better.

I have thought about this line for a few days now as it relates to karma. So, in essence, you are giving her the karma you think she deserves? You feel as if she created her own consequence by asking him to be monogamous? If I understand correctly, she asked him to be monogamous to her, even though she knew that you were in his life. She made a request to have her needs met for fidelity.

HE agreed. He told her that he would do this for her, because he loved her and didn't want to lose her. He said he loves you too, but was willing to jeopardize that by agreeing to her request. He then decided that it was okay to have sex with you. You decided this too (because after all, what does it have to do with you?), because he thought her request was not something he could agree to, after all.

This was the moment it all changed, I think. HE decided to disrespect her, and you, and himself at that moment, no? He made a mockery of his love for all of you in that moment, imo.
1. He didn't stop right there and say, "You know, I want to show her respect and honour by stopping here and renegotiating the agreement we have. I love you too much, it seems, to be able to agree to meet her needs on this."
2. He showed you in that moment that he is not able to control his hormones and cock enough to hold off from having sex with people long enough to think rationally. He basically let you know in that moment that this is the future you and he would have. If you are okay with him sleeping with whoever without telling you, then that's fine. I just wonder if you had talked about it, discussed your needs, and his, and come to the agreement that he could be a free-sexing man if he were with you.
3. He made a mockery of his own self love by seemingly shrugging it off as nothing. He has caused himself some pain, it seems, by how he is acting now. He has some feelings about how he behaved, and the choices he made, and it seems that it is possible that he has damaged the idea of who he thought he was.

Whose karma is coming around here? A moment of getting back at someone for speaking about having feelings and needs and requesting them (which was the healthiest part of this interaction), is not karma coming around, it's just plain hurtful, calculating, manipulation of people's fragile position in this arrangement and, well, not the best idea in the long run.

I know we have been over this, but in terms of my own journey with this kind of thing, this thread has been helpful to me in my own life. A lot resonates with me on many levels. So, thanks. I realize you are hurting. Again, I am sorry for that, but because others read these threads, I thought it useful to write this, as it might help others make decisions that are more in keeping with possible GOOD karma.

 

[Purpurea]

I'd bail out of this situation immediately. You deserve better, whether you know that or not.

Of course I deserve someone who treats me with 100% love. But does this situation or him keep me from finding someone else? Do I keep myself from it? In all cases: No. So why should I leave? Because it hurts? Well, as I said before, I'm the only one who is responsible for how I feel. If I left the situation, I would have to watch out not to end up in similar situations again. Or if I did, I would feel the same hurt again. In terms of inner growing, staying and overcoming my hurt is definitely the best thing to do.

You just said that you believe he loves you. But I think you are mistaken. If he genuinely loved you he'd treat you much, much better than he does.

I'm sure he loves me as much as he can. I'm sure everyone loves as much as they can, and that the love they give to others represents exactly the amount of love they give to themselves. It is sad that he doesn't love himself more. But who am I to judge? How much to I love myself? How often have I treated myself badly?

We all make mistakes. There's no point in punishing him for it, as it would mean I would punish myself too, if I made a mistake.

 

[Purpurea]

Redpepper, no, I'm not giving anyone karma. Karma just is. It sounds a little as if you think I would try to punish her. I wouldn't do that. It would be bad karma. I think everyone deserves the best.

She asked him to be monogamous. He agreed. He had sex with me anyway, but thinks it was a mistake and regrets it. I don't think it was a mistake, because having sex has nothing to do with her. It was a mistake to agree to her request. It is a mistake that he hasn't told her yet that we had sex.

I would be fine with him having sex with others without telling me. I wouldn't be fine with him not using protection, and therefore risking my health. Physical harm is my limit. There's nothing I can do to get rid of my dependence on my body. I can get rid of being dependent on my own feelings, though. I wouldn't stop seeing him, but I would stop having sex with him.

Whenever you do something that helps you keep up a false belief, it is an act of self-hate, or self-denial, and therefore bad karma. So, all bad karma behavior in a list.
1. She asking him to be monogamous. False belief: If he has sex with others, he will leave me. I can't stand him leaving me.
2. He agreed. False belief: I can't stand her leaving me.
3. Him not telling her that he had sex with me before she comes. False belief: I need to make sure to keep her. I can't stand her leaving me.
4. Me leaving/punishing him (in case I did). False belief: I can't stand being number 2, or him leaving me.
(What false belief does he keep up when he has sex with me?)

The hurt we feel comes from all those false beliefs. The truth is, of course we can stand to have others leave us. The only dependence we have is our physical limits. Our lives aren't threatened by someone leaving us. Our lives are threatened by hanging on to false beliefs. Because self denial requires a lot of energy to be maintained, and in the long run, it can potentially make us physically ill and even kill us! The hurt we feel when we decide to overcome our false beliefs, and stay in a situation without fighting it, will be intense, but only temporary.

Read about how to overcome anxiety disorders. It's a good example. In any situation that makes you feel bad, you have three options: Avoid or fight the situation, or let go of your negative feelings. The first two are only temporary solutions, that will have enormous costs in the long run. Letting go is hard in the beginning, but will give you energy and freedom in the long run. There is no reason to hang on to avoiding or fighting. Anyone has the ability to let go. So there is really no need to keep up false beliefs by others meeting them.

The "cheating" is not the mistake. The mistake is the philosophy that makes you think it's a mistake.

 

[Purpurea]

It's been a while since I wrote last. I visited him again and we didn't have sex this time. Still I'm not sure if she could handle seeing us kiss and cuddle all the time. I think he and she might have different definitions of "no sex", and that they should really talk about it. We also talked again about our relationship. The results are that he said that I'm just as important as she is. I still believe him. He doesn't see that he treats me as secondary though, when he gives up sex with me because she doesn't like it.

He said that, in fact, he doesn't know what he really wants, as he never really had a close relationship with someone. The only thing he knows is that he wants her close, and me too. And he wants to find out what he wants by trying how it feels for him being her boyfriend and being "just" friends with me. He also said that he is well aware that the main reason for couples being monogamous is jealousy.

He said he wants all of us to live together some day. He asked me to give him time to find out what he really wants and just see what happens.

I understand him. This is not a common thing to happen. There is no role model in our society for this situation. Usually people actually choose one person over another. However, what he is saying makes it sound like he might be ready for poly one day. But I'm not counting on it And I have no idea how she would be able to deal with it. She doesn't seem to be even close to poly. My main focus is on going on learning to let go of my own negative feelings concerning this situation and take good care of myself. I seriously hope that he will not change his mind before I've learnt to truly come to terms with the situation the way it is now.

We'll see what happens in May, when he tells her about the cheating. Usually monogamous people either leave, or ask their partner to stay away from the person he cheated with. It's going to be very interesting.

 

[MrFarFromRight]

Who's Karma is coming around here? A moment of getting back at someone for having feelings and needs and requesting them... which is what was the healthiest part of this interaction... is not Karma coming around, it's just plain hurtful, calculating, manipulative of peoples fragile position in this arrangement and well, not the best idea in the long run...

I think we should be clear about who is being "hurtful, calculating, manipulative of people's fragile position in this arrangement".

I simply cannot see that Purpurea is manipulating anyone: She's the most clear-minded of the three, she's honest to him AND to herself. You might accuse her of being dishonest to the other woman, but if my memory serves - without wading again through all that's been written on this thread - she's never met this woman. Is it her responsibility to tell her? Is it her responsibility to end (or put limits on) a relationship... to play the game by the other woman's rules?

Let's look at motivations / philosophies (as I understand them):
Purpurea is a disciple of polyamory - albeit a relative newbie to the term and the groundrules [as am I, as well] - who believes (and feels) that putting limits on Love is a bad thing. (I think that it's become clear that she's willing to put limits on sex in certain circumstances: "I wouldn't be fine with him not using protection and therefore risking my health. Physical harm is my limit, there's nothing I can do to get rid of the dependence to my body. I can get rid of being dependent on my own feelings though. I wouldn't stop seeing him though, but I would stop having sex with him.") But why limit our capacity to love (including sharing sexual love) because society - or, in this case, one member of it - says that that's a no-no? She's insisted that her friend comes clean with the other woman - she's just allowing him to set the timetable.
The Other Woman is jealous. This is a frailty, but it's a human one and very widespread. Very few of us weren't brought up to believe that jealousy is an indication of true love. I can't blame her. (Though wouldn't it be nice if she got over her jealousy?)
The Man wants to have his cake and eat it too. Also a very human trait. But in order to achieve this, he's willing to lie to one woman and treat another woman as second-best. And supposedly these are both women that he loves. He seems to me to be the closest we've got here to the villain of the story... but he's oh, so typical. I pity him. And I wonder if he's really worthy of either of the women - especially of Purpurea.

If anyone's creating bad karma here, it's The Man. And several people have advised Purpurea to drop him and find someone who loves her openly and fully.

But if feelings are decided by common sense, logic, and "rightness"... it's news to me. We love whom we love: faults, frailties, inconsistencies and all. And as Purpurea has written, there is much in their relationship that is positive and beautiful.

 

[redpepper]

MFFR, I agree. The man is not thinking things through. He's being selfish. All I was saying is that I would not chose to sleep with a man that is cheating. It is all very well to believe that the other woman is being selfish also, but she has had no chance to change that or debate that because she is being lied to. It sounds like she asked for a monosexual relationship and she think she has that. How is she to blame if she is being deceived?

Purpurea is part of that deception because she chose to be. She can justify it all she wants. She is fine with that. I'm not about to argue about it. I debated that, but have come to the conclusion that she simply has a different idea about what she feels comfortable with than I do. *shrug* That's it. If her conscience is clear, who am I to debate that? I am not her. All I wanted to do was point out that there is a different way of looking at it. I have done that. I have nothing more to say, at this point.

 

[MrFarFromRight]

All I was saying is that I would not chose to sleep with a man that is cheating. It is all very well to believe that the other woman is being selfish also, but she has had no chance to change that or debate that because she is being lied to. I think it sounds like she asked for a mono relationship and she think she has that. How is she to blame if she is being decieved? P is part of that deception because she chose to be.

1) As someone who has twice in my life chosen to sleep with a woman who was cheating on her husband (once I hardly knew the man: the other time, he was a good friend; BOTH times decades ago), this is not something I ever want to repeat.

2) Aside from those 2 cases, I have several times found myself a catalyst in a break-up. No sex involved, but a rapport with a woman that a jealous husband or boyfriend got even more jealous about. I have been told by some people that this, too, was unethical on my part. My stand is that nobody belongs to anybody else, and that if somebody wants to talk to me until 3 in the morning while her boyfriend has long ago gone to their joint bed, I'm not about to tell her: "Your place is by his side."

3) I hope that I haven't given the impression that I fault the other woman. She is a victim (of her / our upbringing that insists on monogamy as the only valid option; as well as of a man who says that he loves her and that has agreed to be "faithful" and yet isn't).

4) I think that we're agreed that the man is the one most to blame here. He is a weakling whose weakness is causing one woman to suffer (although I believe that Purpurea is handling it pretty well, all things considered) and would cause the other woman to suffer even more if only she knew what was going on.

5) If he were to say (to himself and to Purpurea): "I'm sorry, but I can't accept the idea of monogamy. However, I love this other woman and neither want to hurt her nor to lose her. Therefore, I'm keeping our relationship a secret", I think that I might have a bit more respect for him. But he's saying that he's been won over to monogamy... but a monogamy where he's allowed to cheat. This is really old hat! It's been going on ever since monogamy became the norm. "There are certain rules, but I am allowed to ignore them."

6) However (as one who has cheated), who am I to point the finger?!

7) "P is part of that deception because she chose to be." As I see it, P has chosen to love a man, with all his faults and weaknesses. She has insisted (? - at least strongly urged) that he come clean with the other woman.

8) Should she say: "I refuse to love you because you're a coward and a cheat"? I'm assuming that you'd agree that she shouldn't. Should she say: "I refuse to sleep with you (even though we love each other deeply and are sexually attracted to each other) unless your girlfriend agrees to it"? My guess is that you would say yes and I would say not necessarily. Should she say: "I refuse to sleep with you if you consider sleeping with me as some kind of moral backsliding, something to feel guilty and dirty about"? HERE is where I would answer yes (if it were me). But it isn't me...

 

[redpepper]

MFFR, regarding #8, if I were her, I would love him extra hard, listen, suggest what I think he should do, i.e., be honest with me and her, and tell him that, out of respect to her, him, and most of all myself, I would wait to have sex until it has reflected a process of consideration and respect for where everyone is. In that way, I would feel that my integrity was intact.

 

[MrFarFromRight]

MFFR, regarding #8, if I were her, I would love him extra hard, listen, suggest what I think he should do, i.e., be honest with me and her, and tell him that out of respect to her, him, and most of all myself, I would wait to have sex until it has reflected a process of consideration and respect for where everyone is. In that way, I would feel that my integrity was intact.

Fair enough. Well said. In principle, I agree with you, possibly 100%. As someone who values the emotional over the sexual, for me, personally, it wouldn't be too difficult to hold off on the sex until there was justice, fairness, and honesty all 'round. But love's a sticky business!

 

[redpepper]

love's a sticky business!

Yes, it is. Sometimes acting with integrity is easier said than done. I would be the first to admit that. No one is perfect.

 

[Purpurea]

Is it her responsibility to tell her?

I've thought about that myself. I think it's not, because, like I said, having sex with him is something that concerns him and me. It is his responsibility to tell her, because they made the agreement (without me, by the way)! It's between them. I'm only responsible to be honest with the people that I have a relationship with, and only about things that concern our relationship. Anything else is not my business.

Purpurea is a disciple of polyamory, albeit a relative newbie to the term and the ground rules.

Seriously, I couldn't care less about any rules. I prefer to make up the rules myself. I'm convinced that I can learn to act with more love and integrity by looking inside myself. I really don't need to follow rules someone else has made. So, I would consider myself as someone who is close to polyamory, but many of the rules in polyamory don't go far enough for me. Some keep people emotionally dependent.

4) I think that we're agreed that the man is the one most to blame here. He is a weakling whose weakness is causing one woman to suffer (although I believe that Purpurea is handling it pretty well, all things considered) and would cause the other woman to suffer even more if only she knew what was going on.

I disagree. I don't think anyone is to blame. How can someone be a weakling if he does something out of love? The weak part is for me that he chose monogamy. But he's not to blame for it either. It's pretty understandable, like I wrote in my last post. (He wants to find out what he wants, plus monogamy is common in our society.) I think he doesn't cause the other woman's hurt. He's simply a trigger. Causing other people's feelings would mean that we're responsible for their feelings. But from my point of view, we are not.

If he were to say to himself and Purpurea. "I'm sorry, but I can't accept the idea of monogamy. However, I love this other woman and neither want to hurt her nor to lose her. Therefore, I'm keeping our relationship a secret," I think that I might have a bit more respect for him. But he's saying that he's been won over to monogamy, but a monogamy where he's allowed to cheat. This is really old hat! It's been going on ever since monogamy became the norm. "There are certain rules, but I am allowed to ignore them."

He doesn't think that he is allowed to have sex with me.

"P is part of that deception because she chose to be." As I see it, P has chosen to love a man, with all his faults and weaknesses. She has insisted (? - at least strongly urged) that he come clean with the other woman.

Yes, I've chosen to love him for all he is, including the mistakes he makes. We all make mistakes. It's not wrong to make mistakes. Yes, I feel hurt by certain things he does, but as I believe that only I am responsible for how I feel, only I am able to get rid of my feelings. He doesn't make me feel hurt. I am the one who makes myself feel hurt in this situation. Seeing things this way makes me more independent from the things that happen around me. I can't completely influence what happens around me, but I can influence how I feel about what happens around me. Stopping blaming each other for how we feel in any situation is the only way that can really guarantee an everlasting relationship.

I have neither insisted nor urged him to tell her. I refuse to put any pressure on him. The only thing I do is offer him my view that in his position, I would feel it right to tell her immediately. We should always be aware that we have our beliefs about what is true, but that we don't really KNOW it.

8) Should she say: "I refuse to love you because you're a coward and a cheat"? I'm assuming that you'd agree that she shouldn't. Should she say: "I refuse to sleep with you (even though we love each other deeply and are sexually attracted to each other) unless your girlfriend agrees to it"? My guess is that you would say yes and I would say not necessarily. Should she say: "I refuse to sleep with you if you consider sleeping with me as some kind of moral backsliding, something to feel guilty and dirty about"? HERE is where I would answer yes (if it were me). But it isn't me...

I will never stop doing things I do out of love. And having sex with him is something I do out of love. If someone else has problems with it, I'm sorry that they can't just be happy about it instead, but I will never hold back anything that lets me bring more love to this world. I will not hesitate for one second. And I'm sure people will go on feeling hurt because of that. My husband felt hurt, the other woman will feel hurt, and probably potentially new partners might also feel hurt that I'm not willing to have exclusive relationships with them. I wish I could take everyone's hurt away, but I can't. If someone feels hurt by what I do, it doesn't prove at all that the things I've done are wrong.

 

[Purpurea]

If I were her I would love him extra hard, listen, suggest what I think he should do, i.e., be honest with me and her and tell him that out of respect to her, him and most of all myself, I will wait to have sex until it reflected a process of consideration and respect for where everyone is. In that way I would feel my integrity was intact.

Considering the fact that I don't agree with their agreement, try to put it the other way around: If I were the other woman, I would tell him that out of respect to me (Purpurea), him, and most of all, myself (the other woman), I would wait to ask him to give up sex with others until it reflected a process of consideration and respect for where everyone involved is. It's really interesting to me that still sex has a very dirty, greedy connotation, that it is considered to be a lack of self-control; that's it's perfectly fine to stop doing things out of love and keep on doing things out of self-hate. Her asking him to give up sex with me seems to be perfectly agreeable, even on this board (!), while I think that THIS is the actual problem that we all should focus on, not that I still had sex with him.

 

[MrFarFromRight]

@ Purpurea: I'd like to spend more time on your comments, but I'm about to be thrown out until next week.

First, let me say that I (personally) haven't found anything wrong in your handling of this. I assume that you're German, and -although your English is excellent - there might be subtle nuances that get in the way of total understanding. When I wrote: "Is it her [your] responsibility to tell [the other woman]?", that was a rhetorical question. I believe that the onus should be on him to come clean.
Second, i'd like to comment on

He doesn't think that he is allowed to have sex with me.

I might be mistaken, but I seem to remember that he was doing a guilt trip thing. He's not allowed (under his own rules) to have sex with you, but he has done. And I personally find distasteful his attitude of, "Oh, I've done a BAD thing, having sex with you!" I can't think that that's very nice for you to hear. If he's stopped doing that, if you're not having sex until he speaks honestly with her, I think that's fine. If you're having sex without him acting like it's some bad thing, I can handle that. (RP would disagree with me here, I suppose.) But I grew up in a family where all extra-marital sex was a sin and a weakness, to be felt guilty about. I used to pray for forgiveness when I had a wank. And that bothers me about how your male friend is handling this.

Gotta run.

 

[redpepper]

Considering the fact that I don't agree with their agreement, try to put it the other way around: If I were the other woman, I would tell him that out respect to me (Purpurea), him and most of all, myself (the other woman), I would wait to ask him to give up sex with others until it reflected a process of consideration and respect for where everyone involved is. It's really interesting to me that sex has still a very dirty, greedy connotation, that it is considered to be a lack of self-control; that's it's perfectly fine to stop doing things out of love, and keep on doing things out of self-hate. Her asking him to give up sex with me seems to be perfectly agreeable, even on this board (!), while I think that THIS is the actual problem that we all should focus on, not that I still had sex with him.

So you would do things the other way round? Everyone have sex until someone gets over their own feelings of uncertainty, abandonment, not being considered? Fuck it out, essentially? I had never considered that. I wonder how many people would stay in the situation and how many would find people that want to work together.

I wonder if I should try that with my partner, Mono. Hmm... I could have sex with Leo, and justify it by saying it's Mono's problem that he has feelings, and he can work on that himself.

P, have you read any of the other threads on here, or just yours? MFFR is talking about ground rules, but they aren't the rules. They are a general set of ideas that have been proven to work. The idea is, we are not an island of one. What we do affects all involved, including us. That is why there is so much talk about negotiating boundaries and working together with others to insure a general set of boundaries is negotiated. In this way, everyone works on happiness together. This is how tribes form, community, family, in a sense. It's a natural occurence that humans find community, no? This is being lost, it seems, and creates a world of lonely people vying for their own needs being met, not giving to others and empathizing in return.

I have no investment in you agreeing with anything anyone says here, but I would find it a shame if you haven't benefitted from other threads. I would hate you to think you were alone in this. There are many others struggling with similar situations.

 

[Purpurea]

This is being lost, it seems, and creates a world of lonely people vying for their own needs being met, not giving to others and empathizing in return.

This is exactly the image my husband had in mind when I told him that I wanted to have the other man equally close. He said that I should respect his feelings and give up seeing this other man because it hurt him, otherwise I was selfish and disrespectful. What I give to others is understanding for their hurt, because I know what it feels like and I feel sorry. And they can come to me, cry as much as they like, or be angry as long as they want, and I will give them all the support I'm capable of to go with them through their hurt until they feel better.

I just simply CAN'T take away their negative feelings! I can only cure the symptoms of their pain, not the cause. I really can't see how this could be a good thing, because it doesn't create voluntary connections between people but dependences. I want people to be together because they simply want to be together, not because they need each other. Apparently, many have a problem with trusting that people will not become completely selfish and uncaring if they aren't emotionally dependent on each other.

Edit: I've read through a couple of threads here, yes, and it's pretty interesting. I really wish I had more time for it, but unfortunately I don't.

 

[Purpurea]

When I wrote: "Is it her [your] responsibility to tell [the other woman]?" that was a rhetorical question.

I understood it was rhetorical, but wanted to write my thoughts about it anyway.

I might be mistaken, but I seem to remember that he was doing a guilt trip. He's not allowed (under his own rules) to have sex with you... but he has done. And I personally find distasteful his attitude of "Oh, I've done a BAD thing, having sex with you!" I can't think that that's very nice for you to hear. If he's stopped doing that - if you're not having sex until he speaks honestly with her, I think that's fine. If you're having sex without him acting like it's some bad thing, I can handle that. (RP would disagree with me here, I suppose.) But I grew up in a family where all extra-marital sex was a sin and a weakness, to be felt guilty about. I used to pray for forgiveness when I had a wank. And that bothers me about how your male friend is handling this.

So, you can't handle that he says what he has done is bad? That's your problem then, I guess. In the beginning, I felt quite hurt when he said it was a bad thing, but I'm coming to terms with it now. It's the way he wants to see the world at the moment, and though I have a different view, he has every right to do so.

For now, let's just wait and see what happens in May when he tells her.

 

[redpepper]

This is exactly the image my husband had in his mind when I told him that I want to have the other man equally close. He said that I should respect his feelings and give up seeing this other man because it hurt him, otherwise I would be selfish and disrespectful. What I give to others is understanding for their hurt... They can come to me, cry, be angry, and I will give them all support I'm capable of to go with them through their hurt until they feel better. I just simply CAN'T take away their negative feelings. I could only cure the symptoms of their pain, but not the cause. I really can't see how this could be a good thing. It doesn't create voluntary connections between people, but dependences. I want people to be together because they simply want to be together, not because they need each other.

You are married? Sorry, I seem to have missed that.

You aren't selfish and disrespectful for asking for something. People cannot help those they love with their feelings if it is an impossibility. The point is to find the absolute limit of possibility. I don't see you doing this, or caring to, because you think that is dependence. That, to me, is a loving relationship, where two people are invested in each other's best interest, dependent of one another.

This has nothing to do with being needy. It's to do with need-- need for companionship, people who work well with us, a feeling of having a complete and full life.

I think there are some language differences here. I am wondering how much you are taking English words and seeing them from other definitions of their meaning.

Look at "non-violent communication" to understand the "need" I am speaking of.

I have gone to the limit of possibility with my relationship with Mono. We have both compromised to the end. There is no way to bridge our gap, so I decided to settle for a non-sexual relationship with the other boyfriend I have. We have talked about it, all of us, together and separately, and this is how it is to be if I am to be content with the situation. I would not be content to push the issue and cause all my loves and family more pain. The pain is evenly spread out now, rather than on one person's head or a few. It is dissipating every day. I see that it was the best choice for all of us. Does that make sense?

In your situation, it sounds like you are unwilling to ask for what you need from this man because you don't want to get involved too deeply, don't want to need him, because you think that is dependence. It's okay to want people in your life, and work towards that, no? I can't see how that is seen as a bad thing. It's a level of depth that is life sustaining to me. It's why I have the partners I have, because they value that too.

The balance is off here, I think. He is unwilling to talk to this other woman and see what she would be willing to compromise and work towards in the way of boundaries. She is blissfully ignorant of the whole thing because he refuses to talk to her. There is an imbalance. The pain is not spread out. You get all the pain, he gets some, and she gets none, all because it seems the two of you don't want to talk about it any further. You have resigned yourself to him calling all the shots. I find that incredibly unfair to you. Yet you are inviting it. Are you afraid to be that vulnerable and close to ask that you be with this man the way YOU want to be? Then again, maybe you don't want to be invested.

They get to be happier than you. You seem to think that you should be able to handle that and suck it up. All I am saying is that there is another way, that of talking all together, expressing what you need, allowing yourself to feel, allowing yourself to be vulnerable enough to say, "This fucking sucks ass. I am angry, hurt, pissed off and need this to change. I want you in my life sexually and as a partner, and if you are unwilling to work on that with me, then I am done."

I guess I just have to realize that you are willing to let it roll and probably die out, so that he can have his mono relationship, or continue cheating on her with you. It sounds like you are good with cheating on her, and wish that it was like that. He isn't able to do that with you anymore, or he would've when you saw him last. It sounds like he has a conscience. That leaves you with nothing, no? Unless you decide to help him not cheat until some boundaries are in place that you can all agree on; until you can stand up when asked and be ready to negotiate a relationship with the three of you, not just him and her, with you the dirty secret.

Here is a 20-minute video long on vulnerability. http://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability.html It has helped me to no end. Perhaps it will be of interest to you. (There are some long stories in the middle that are not pertinent, IMO. Bear with it until the end.) Her final message is really good.

 

[Purpurea]

First of all, thank you for taking all the time writing here. I really appreciate it. Your opinion and views make me think again, and that's a good thing. I wish I had more time to reply to all you say, but I don't, so I focus on what I think is most important:

Allowing yourself to be vulnerable enough to say, "This fucking sucks ass. I am angry, hurt, and need this to change. I want you in my life sexually and as a partner, and if you are unwilling to work on that with me, I am done."

Actually, this was my first reaction. But then I thought again. I don't want to feel angry, hurt, pissed off. I want this to change. But who is responsible for this change? Him? Why?

I'm not scared of being emotionally dependent. I've been very dependent throughout all my life, and it has worked for me. Becoming more independent now scares me so much more, trust me. Things have changed for me a lot with my relationship with him, because loving him and being there for him has become more important and more valuable to me than feeling hurt and making him responsible for it.

It's so simple for me: I've asked myself what would make me happier in the long run: Be there for him or go on feeling hurt? And I asked myself what would I do if I didn't feel hurt at all? As I believe it is possible to overcome any negative feelings all by myself, without anyone meeting my current limits, why should I hold on to them, when being there for him and loving him feels so much better? I don't need anyone to take care of how I feel; I'm a grown-up person and can do it myself.

there is an imbalance, the pain is not spread out. You get all the pain, he gets some and she gets none. All because it seems the two of you don't want to talk about it any further and have resigned yourself to him calling all the shots. I find that incredibly unfair to you, yet you are inviting it.

Throughout all my life, the experiences that seemed to be the worst have always turned out to be the best in the long run, because they let me grow. I've become stronger, happier, more independent, more myself. The better I feel, the more I can give to others. I have had the experience that I'm capable of overcoming extremely horrible feelings, and that has given me so much strength and confidence, that I'm ready to let go of more emotional strings that keep me from being who I really want to be.

So, I really don't share your view, that I get all the pain. In the short run, yes, she will feel like she gets everything. He will feel that he has to give up just a little (sex with me). And I felt like I could choose between pain (staying with him but not getting what I want) or pain (leaving him). But in the long run, she will always have to be scared that he could have sex with another woman. He will always have to make sure not to end up in bed with another woman.

Maintaining a monogamous relationship (or any other relationship that is built on certain restrictions) requires some effort. You give up something that you actually want because you think you're not allowed to, or you couldn't handle the consequences. And the risk that this relationship will fail is very high. They both find it worth risking it, but I really don't want to be in either her or his position. I don't want to ask the people I love not to have sex with someone else, because I want them to be happy. And if having sex with other people makes them happy, then I consider it my job to learn to feel happy for them if I don't feel that way right away. I wouldn't give up sex with someone else, because it makes me happy. I believe that it is possible for everyone to overcome their feelings of hurt, so there's simply no need for me to patronize them.

I can still go wherever I want, and do whatever I choose. I can still go and find a man who shares my views on relationships. My relationship with him doesn't keep me from anything I really want in life, right? So there's no need to change anything about the situation, and I know that my hurt will simply disappear in time.

It seems we have different limits here. Like I said before, for me, the limit is physical harm. I can't overcome the boundaries of my body. If someone hurts me physically, I will have to protect myself. Another limit is time. Emotion-wise, there are no limits for me. For you there are, and that's fine. We both don't know what is right, we have just different beliefs about it.

It seems like you're in quite a similar situation like my friend is. How is your other boyfriend, who seems to be in my position, dealing with the situation? And why is in your case the pain spread out, but not in ours?

 

[Purpurea]

Hi there,

There is some news I wanted to share with you.

I have decided for myself that I'm not willing to stay in this relationship with him, if things stay the way the are. I haven't changed my view about it. I still think that it is actually my problem that I feel hurt when someone I'm close to treats me with less love and respect than another person he's close with. I find the idea of being able to learn to not feel hurt by it still very appealing, and I will continue to work on myself.

However, I've come to realize that I'm not ready to let go of this hurt yet. I'm just fighting it, and this is extremely exhausting and energy-consuming, and would make me sick not too long from now. So I've decided to avoid the hurt by now, avoid dealing with it, until I feel ready for it. This was not an easy decision for me to make, as I'm also dealing with perfectionism. When I've realized something, I want to be able to do it immediately. It is hard for me to admit to myself that I'm not ready yet to live up to my own ideals, that I don't want to do what I think would be better for me. So despite knowing better from a rational point of view, I allow myself to be irrational for now.

We had quite an emotional discussion about it. He told me that I should ask myself why I feel hurt when I feel treated second-best, and that I should try to come to terms with it. And this really turned up all my emotions about this situation, all my anger, fear, and hurt, that he asks me to deal with my hurt (which you know I actually agree with) while at the same time he doesn't ask the same thing from her.

He said again, when I asked him, that if she had not asked him for a monogamous relationship, things would have stayed the way they were, which is that he would have had romantic relationships with both of us. I told him that I don't believe he loves her more, that she is not more important to him, that he doesn't want sex with her more than with me, that he doesn't want to spend his life with her more than with me, and he agreed. He also said that he would not give up anything else we share or want together, even not living together. If she wasn't fine with it, he would live with me alone then, he said. That's kind of weird though, that he gave up sex with me then.

He says, for him it's so little to give up sex, and that it's the only thing he would ever give up for her. And from a rational point of view, I agree that it's not much to give up, as you know. Yet, from an irrational point of view, I couldn't feel more hurt. It works quite well for me, when we're not together, with more distance between us. But as soon as we are together, I feel like shit, knowing that the only reason why we don't have sex is her. And that really, really hurts. And I've realized that I'm not willing to let go of this hurt now.

One of the main reasons he made this decision to have a monogamous relationship is because he thinks that a poly relationship couldn't work, that always someone would feel hurt and jealous, and it would end up in a great mess. I understand his concerns, but the way things are now, it doesn't work either, as I feel hurt and jealous. At least a poly relationship would be fairer and more honest, and would reflect the way he feels about her and me much better.

So... yeah. It really looks like her limits and my limits are incompatible. Right after this discussion, I left his place, and half an hour later he called me and said that he talked to her about how I feel about the situation. And it was she who said that she had thought about if it was possible for her to live in an open relationship, and that the best thing to do would be that all the three of us sit down together when she comes in May, and talk about it to find a solution that we all could live with, so that no one has to leave.

She really wants to meet me. That was really surprising for me, in a positive way. I mean, I don't know her at all yet, but it seems to me that there might be a little chance to "win her over" to the idea of poly. And then him also. Her reaction gave me a lot of hope. She still doesn't know about the cheating, though, so that could turn the whole thing around again, but we'll see what happens.

I'm definitely willing to talk to them. I will suggest that we give the poly thing a try, and see if it works for us or not. Because, I mean, without having ever tried it, how can he possibly know that it won't work? If it doesn't work, they can always go back to their monogamous relationship. So, in my opinion, there's absolutely nothing to lose, and so much to win.

To be continued...

 

[redpepper]

Thanks for the update! I wonder if he will now tell her about the cheating before she comes. It could make a difference to how much she is willing to bend. It's too bad you and he did that. She sounds reasonable and willing to compromise. I hope that keeps up.

I'm sorry this has been painful for you. Jealousy is a difficult thing. I hope you are able to walk through it in time, if that is what you want.

Perhaps polyamory in practice is not for you. Sometimes theory is one thing and practice another. Monogamy is just as good when done well. Have you considered finding a mono boyfriend?