Struggling with Meta's existence

This is, by far, the worst and most conflicting turmoil in my almost 20 years of off/on polyamory.

My wife and I are in our 30s, and were long distance. She's a Brit who almost exclusively spends her time online with Americans. haha. Anyway, she had this question of feelings about one of her friends before (let's call her F), but was unable to acknowledge or pursue anything at the time. So when we got together 4.5 years ago, I let her know that's something I'm okay with her exploring. That's basically how we initially opened up our relationship.

This is where I started screwing up. I brought this girl back in her life, like, "Yo, I know you got feelings for my girl and I'm fine with that. You don't need to run away, because I'm not the same kind of partner she had before."

She was kind of a douche, but tbf I was encouraging her out of the closet. (She's married to a man who is also comfortable with all this and has always adored my wife anyway.) I understood that, as a gay, non-binary recovering catholic. haha

Anyway, there are a few instances of things that I feel like just accumulated.

First and foremost, this girl F is like a diagnosable narcissist who abuses everyone around her, her husband, friends, etc. I didn't know how irredeemable she was.

My wife and I have a very open policy, even when we were initially mono. She went from, "My messages are always right there for you to look through, if you ever get anxious." (because she overstepped boundaries in wife's previous relationship. I know I'm stupid.) I never ever did, because I trust her, and because her openness further proved to me that there was no shadiness.

But then I notice they're talking on Snapchat, almost exclusively. Those messages disappear, so at that point, I did get a little anxious, like, "Hey, what's going on? No problem, but I didn't know you had added each other on Snap." As we just let each other know stuff, not ask permission. My wife basically bit my head off. That's left a certain distrust in me, I think. Just the fact that there was freedom of access, then it was pulled away without even letting me know, and then when I tried to bring it up, I was shoved right back down, like I was so wrong for daring to even ask about it.

Whatever. Fast forward. I try my best to trust my wife and get over my feelings, because we've both always been abused and controlled, and I didn't want her to feel anything remotely close from me. Meta and I became friends of sorts, with like a flirtatious edge. Pretty chill for the most part.

*TW*
Last year (1 month away and it's 1 yr) my best friend (M) of 15 years took her own life while I was in the UK with my wife. I posted a Snapchat story in memoriam, heart aching, about a week after it happened. I already have complex grief and PTSD from my dad dying when I was 11, so losing my best friend left me extremely angry and reactive,especially because I would absolutely have gone to her funeral and I couldn't.

I have never been so explosive in my entire life (and I'm bipolar and bpd. lmao). Anyway, F messaged me off my story. I'm not joking when I say she literally just started degrading my late best friend.

M started an international animal rescue with her own 2 hands. I helped her build her reptile sanctuary portion and get her first baby arctic fox.

F is an online attention-seeker. When I say F is a narcissist, I'm not even judging. I'm being literal. I have expertise in abnormal psychology. I think it was an envy thing, as M was internationally famous and desired, without begging for attention. She had apparently been talking ish to my wife about M before messaging me, for some reason.

Anyway, F insulted M and me, so I lost my head at her. I called her pathetic, see through, and all that jazz, which I know triggers narcissists. Maybe it was toxic, but I just saw red. She locked up, called me names, blocked me, tried talking badly about me to my wife, who was basically just like "Look, that's between you 2. I don't wanna hear about it."

I am extremely segregated as a person. Your partners and friendships are yours, and shouldn't rely on me or how I feel about whoever. I have always been vehement with that. So I literally asked for it. But unfortunately, a year later, I'm still obsessing about all of it. I've spoken to a doctor briefly, who has pegged me as having complicated grief, in part because of F's actions and words to me when it was all raw.

The part I can't seem to deal with is feeling betrayed by my wife. You still want this person around?? I've had despicable things done to me throughout my life, and this is genuinely the most hurt and let down I have ever felt by anyone.

Our marriage hasn't been the same since then. I trust her completely, except for when it comes to F. That's closer to NO trust at all. I get the urge to look through her phone, which isn't me. I want her to throw this POS in the bin, which I don't ethically agree with, because it's still about me.

This is all fueled as well by the fact that F has also manipulated and abused my wife.

It's like this situation has turned everything just overwhelming and unmanageable for me. My ethics don't agree with what my soul feels like it needs. I'm just so broken. I don't want to leave her over this. But I feel like I can't grieve properly, even with my wife, because then I just think about the fact that she chooses to have the worst person in her life still, after she directly was partially responsible for my grief going sideways.

I know I have vulnerability factors, emotional issues and all that. I have done so, so much work on myself since I was 12 years old, and it's like it's all been lost. I don't know what to do. So I end up paralyzed, silently sobbing in the kitchen or the bathroom, talking myself out of worse things and I don't say anything. I don't have anyone else I can talk to. I don't know how to salvage my marriage without betraying what I feel is just ethical polyamory (i.e., you need to cut F off, or whatever). I don't want to lose her. I don't want to betray my ethics, but I'm going to die if I keep going like this. Please someone, any pointers or anything..

Rather than "see a doctor briefly," get thyself to a therapist. Call a suicide hotline, if you feel like you're going to die. Even if you don't mean you have suicidal ideation, you might self-harm... (My daughter struggled mightily with borderline personality disorder, so I am very familiar with the issues. I have had to create a distance between us.)

This is much more than a "polyamory" problem. This is a big mental health problem. Seek professional help. We are not qualified here.

Cavefox said:

This is, by far, the worst and most conflicting turmoil in my almost 20 years of off/on polyamory.

My wife and I are in our 30s, and were long distance. She's a brit who almost exclusively spends her time online with Americans haha. Anyways she had this question of feelings about one of her friends before (Let's call her F) but was unable to acknowledge or pursue anything at the time. So when we got together 4.5 years ago, I let her know that's something I'm okay with her exploring. That's basically how we initially opened up our relationship.

This is where I started screwing up. I brought this girl back in her life like "Yo, I know you got feelings for my girl and I'm fine with that. You don't need to run away because I'm not the same kind of partner she had before."
She was kind of a douche, but tbf I was encouraging her out of the closet (she's married to a man who is also comfortable with all this and has always adored my wife anyways) and I understood that as a gay, nonbinary recovering catholic hahah.

Anyways, there's a few instances of things that I feel like just accumulated.
First and foremost, this girl F is like a diagnosable narcissist who abuses everyone arouns her. Husband, friends, etc etc. I didn't know how irredeemable she was.

My wife and I have a very open policy, even when we were initially mono. She went from "my messages are always right there for you to look through if you every get anxious." (cause she overstepped boundaries in wife's previous relationship. I know I'm stupid) and I never ever did, because I trust her and because her openness further proved to me that there was no shadyness.

But then I notice they're talking on snapchat, and it's almost exclusively on snap. Those messages disappear so atp I did get a little anxious like "hey what's going on? No problems but I didn't know you had added eachother on snap." As we just let eachother know stuff not ask permission. My wife basically bit my head off. That's left a certain distrust in me, I think. Just the fact that there was freedom of access, then it was pulled away without even letting me know, and then when I tried to bring it up I was shoved right back down like I was so wrong for daring to even ask about it.

Whatever fast forward. I try my best to trust my wife and get over my feelings cause we've both always been abused and controlled and I didn't want her to feel anything remotely close from me. Meta and I became friends of sorts with like a flirtatious edge. Pretty chill for the most part.

*TW*
Last year (1 month away and it's 1 yr) my best friend (M) of 15 years took her own life while I was in the UK with my wife. I posted a snapchat story in memoriam, heartaching about a week after it happened. I have already complex grief and PTSD from my dad dying when I was 11, so losing my best friend left me extremely angry and reactive. Especially because I would absolutely have gone to her funeral and I couldn't. I have never been so explosive in my entire life (and I'm bipolar and bpd lmao). Anyways F messaged me off my story. I'm not joking when I say she literally just started degrading my late best friend. M started an international animal rescue with her own 2 hands. I helped her build her reptile sanctuary portion and get her first baby arctic fox, and F is an online attention-seeker. When I say F is a narcissist I'm not even judging, I'm being literal. I have expertise in abnormal psychology. I think it was an envy thing, as M was internationally famous and desired without begging for attention. She had apparently been talking ish to my wife about M before messaging me, for some reason.
Anyways F insulted M and myself, so I lost my head at her. Called her pathetic, see through, and all that jazz which I know triggers narcissists. Maybe it was toxic but I just saw red. She locked up, called me names and blocked me. Tried talking bad ab me to my wife who was basically just like "Look, that's between you 2. I don't wanna hear about it."

I am extremely segregated as a person. Your partners and friendships are yours, and shouldn't rely on me or how I feel about whoever. I have always been vehement with that. So I literally asked for it. But unfortunately a year later, I'm still obsessing about all of it. I've spoken to a doctor briefly who has pegged me as having complicated grief, in part because of F's actions and words to me when it was all raw.

The part I can't seem to deal with is feeling betrayed by my wife. You still want this person around?? I've had despicable things done to me throughout my life, and this is genuinely the most hurt and let down I have ever felt by anyone. Our marriage hasn't been the same since then. I trust her completely, except for when it comes to F- that's closer to NO trust at all. I get the urge to look through her phone which isn't me. I want her to throw this pos in the bin, which I don't ethically agree with cause it's still about me. This is all fueled as well by the fact that F also manipulated and abused my wife. It's like this situation has turned everything just overwhelming and unmanageable for me. My ethics don't agree with what my soul feels like it needs and I'm just so broken. I don't want to leave her over this. But I feel like I can't grieve properly even with my wife because then I just think about the fact that she chooses to have the worst person in her life still after she directly was partially responsible for my grief going sideways. I know I have vulnerability factors, emotional issues and all that. I have done so, so much work on myself since I was 12 years old.. and it's like it's all been lost.. I don't know what to do. So I end up paralyzed, silently sobbing in the kitchen or the bathroom, talking myself out of worse things and I don't say anything. I don't have anyone else I can talk to. I don't know how to salvage my marriage without betraying what I feel is just ethical polyamory (i.e/ you need to cut F off or whatever). I don't want to lose her, I don't want to betray my ethics.. but I'm going to die if I keep going like this. Please someone, any pointers or anything..

Click to expand...

From my perspective, this seems like a completely valid situation for you to feel betrayed by your wife in.

If it was just that you and the metamour didn’t mesh well, that would be different. We don’t need to love all of our partner’s friends/lovers.

However, this person has actively hurt you in a time where you were very vulnerable. I think there is an ethical obligation of your wife to take it seriously when a friend/lover of hers is aggressive with another loved one. It’s unethical to be a passive observer in that case.

I wish I had more to give, but mainly I wanted to validate your pain of not feeling supported/seen by your wife.

Edit: I did want to add one thing: I know it might feel like death, but I promise that there is a life worth living for yourself if you end up needing to leave your wife for whatever reason. It’s natural and normal for our bodies to treat breakups as akin to death, as humans used to live in considerably smaller communities where being excluded/cast out would mean significantly higher chances of death. (I got this from an interview with a therapist specializing in divorce.) I’d strongly recommend prioritizing reaching out to other supportive people in your life, whether that be friends, family, or even coworkers. They’ll be vital in helping you feel more stable in this situation.

Hello Cavefox,

I just want to say how sorry I am that you are in such a difficult situation. F has treated you horribly, and your wife is in the wrong for not breaking up with F. It would be different if F was getting help for her psychological problems, but of course narcissists never seek help (as they "don't need help"). I'm not sure what to advise as far as breaking up with your wife, I just want to say that you should take care of yourself, and if your wife is making it impossible for you to heal, well, that's something you have to consider. It looks like F has been a bad influence on your wife from the beginning; she should break up with F for her own sake at least. But I don't think she's going to do that. I'm so sorry.

Sympathetically,
Kevin T.

SHORT VERSION

I don't want to lose her. I don't want to betray my ethics. But I'm going to die if I keep going like this. Please someone, any pointers or anything.

Click to expand...

If you mean going on like this causes you great pain, I'm sorry. Please stop going on like this. Remove yourself from this situation.

If you are thinking about suicide, please call a helpline or check into the hospital.


------

LONG VERISON

I'll repeat what I understand in my own words. You correct me if I get parts wrong, okay? I'm confused without nicknames. I get lost in which "she" is which. I'm going to use generic plants for names. I'm happy to go with something else if you prefer.

PEOPLE

• You are you, Cavefox.
  • You have been on/off poly for 20+ years;
  • You have dx for bipolar and BPD;
  • You have been abused/controlled by past partners;
  • You have complex grief and PTSD from your dad passing when you were 11.
    • This makes grieving your friend M's suicide a year ago extra hard.
• Wife is "Daisy."
  • Daisy has been abused/controlled by past partners
• The GF is "Fern."
  • Fern is married to someone who is not ok with open marriage. He's not really a part of the story, but let's call him "Pine."
  • Fern is stepping out on Pine by dating Daisy. Daisy is Fern's cheating affair partner. (I'm not clear on this.)

RECENT PAST

• You and Daisy were online buddies who eventually started dating monogamously, but then agreed it would be an open relationship, since you knew about her crush on Fern.
• Rather than leaving the (Daisy + Fern) relationship to develop on its own, or continue to be nothing, since Pine is not okay with open marriage, you went to Fern and told her you were okay with Fern having a crush on Daisy, because you are not like Daisy's ex. (Were you trying to be the "cool, better" partner? Why would Fern even need know how you felt about Fern having some crush? How did you even know? Daisy told you?)

INCIDENTS

• Over time, you realized Fern was a narcissist.
• You don't like that Daisy and Fern changed from texting to using Snapchat as their communication tool.
  • You didn't like Daisy biting your head off when you asked her why they changed from texting to Snapchat.
• Fern made rude comments on your Snapchat about M's passing. It was not appropriate.
  • In your grief, you felt provoked, lost your head, and called Fern names.
  • Fern locked up, called you names, and blocked you on Snapchat.
  • Fern tried to badmouth you to Daisy, who chose to stay out of it.
    • You are also mad at Daisy about that.
• Fern also abused and manipulated Daisy.
  • You don't like that either.

CURRENT PROBLEMS

• You don't like Fern intruding on your grief; still mad almost a year later.
• You wish Daisy had told Fern off for intruding on your Snapchat memorium and trying to get Daisy to take her side. You don't like that Daisy chose to stay out of it, because "being neutral" here is not actually neutral. It's Daisy being okay with Fern harming her other partner, you.
• You don't like that Daisy is still dating Fern, even though Fern abused/manipulated Daisy herself.
• You are super upset that both these things are still not the dealbreaker line for Daisy.
  • You see Daisy differently; you lost some respect for her.
  • You trust Daisy in some areas, but do not trust her around Fern.
• You don't want to break up with Daisy, but you don't like Fern's presence in her life, and by extension, on the edges of yours.
• You'd like to keep the marriage, but can't see how to do that and be healthy in yourself, because Daisy is engaging with an unhealthy person.
• Daisy herself may not be healthy for you to be around right now.
• This is all causing you great pain.

Does that capture the big points?

If so, I think this is a lot to carry. Internet people might be able to help with one or two things, but you have a lot. I think you could talk to a counselor.

And honestly, if you have abuse in your past, and Fern is an abuser, you may have to move out and have a trial separation with Daisy, to get more distance in there. When Daisy visits you at your place, no talking about Fern at all, not outside therapy sessions.

I get that you wish Daisy would just dump Fern so both of you could get away from the abuser. But if Daisy is hellbent on staying here with Fern, or is having difficulty leaving, because that happens in abuse, save yourself.

If that means a trial separation to get some distance, individual and couples counseling, and more clarity on this situation, do it. You start saving yourself.

You attend couples counseling. Hopefully so does Daisy. Maybe you and Daisy come back together and reconcile through counseling, or counseling makes it clear that this is just not repairable. So you finish breaking up and have as peaceful a divorce possible in the circumstances, and continue individual counseling so you have support through all this.

The feelings are super painful, but you can't hang around here absorbing abuse secondhand. It's not okay to keep yourself in harm's way.

If Daisy won't go with you, save yourself.

I'm sorry. This is really tough.

Galagirl

GalaGirl said:

SHORT VERSION

If you mean going on like this causes you great pain, I'm sorry. Please stop going on like this. Remove yourself from this situation.

If you are thinking about suicide, please call a helpline or check into the hospital.

List of suicide crisis lines - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

------

LONG VERISON

I'll repeat what I understand in my own words. You correct me if I get parts wrong, okay? I'm confused without nicknames. I get lost in which "she" is which. I'm going to use generic plants for names. I'm happy to go with something else if you prefer.

PEOPLE

• You are you, Cavefox.
  • You have been on/off poly for 20+ years;
  • You have dx for bipolar and BPD;
  • You have been abused/controlled by past partners;
  • You have complex grief and PTSD from your dad passing when you were 11.
    • This makes grieving your friend M's suicide a year ago extra hard.
• Wife is "Daisy."
  • Daisy has been abused/controlled by past partners
• The GF is "Fern."
  • Fern is married to someone who is not ok with open marriage. He's not really a part of the story, but let's call him "Pine."
  • Fern is stepping out on Pine by dating Daisy. Daisy is Fern's cheating affair partner. (I'm not clear on this.)

RECENT PAST

• You and Daisy were online buddies who eventually started dating monogamously, but then agreed it would be an open relationship, since you knew about her crush on Fern.
• Rather than leaving the (Daisy + Fern) relationship to develop on its own, or continue to be nothing, since Pine is not okay with open marriage, you went to Fern and told her you were okay with Fern having a crush on Daisy, because you are not like Daisy's ex. (Were you trying to be the "cool, better" partner? Why would Fern even need know how you felt about Fern having some crush? How did you even know? Daisy told you?)

INCIDENTS

• Over time, you realized Fern was a narcissist.
• You don't like that Daisy and Fern changed from texting to using Snapchat as their communication tool.
  • You didn't like Daisy biting your head off when you asked her why they changed from texting to Snapchat.
• Fern made rude comments on your Snapchat about M's passing. It was not appropriate.
  • In your grief, you felt provoked, lost your head, and called Fern names.
  • Fern locked up, called you names, and blocked you on Snapchat.
  • Fern tried to badmouth you to Daisy, who chose to stay out of it.
    • You are also mad at Daisy about that.
• Fern also abused and manipulated Daisy.
  • You don't like that either.

CURRENT PROBLEMS

• You don't like Fern intruding on your grief; still mad almost a year later.
• You wish Daisy had told Fern off for intruding on your Snapchat memorium and trying to get Daisy to take her side. You don't like that Daisy chose to stay out of it, because "being neutral" here is not actually neutral. It's Daisy being okay with Fern harming her other partner, you.
• You don't like that Daisy is still dating Fern, even though Fern abused/manipulated Daisy herself.
• You are super upset that both these things are still not the dealbreaker line for Daisy.
  • You see Daisy differently; you lost some respect for her.
  • You trust Daisy in some areas, but do not trust her around Fern.
• You don't want to break up with Daisy, but you don't like Fern's presence in her life, and by extension, on the edges of yours.
• You'd like to keep the marriage, but can't see how to do that and be healthy in yourself, because Daisy is engaging with an unhealthy person.
• Daisy herself may not be healthy for you to be around right now.
• This is all causing you great pain.

Does that capture the big points?

If so, I think this is a lot to carry. Internet people might be able to help with one or two things, but you have a lot. I think you could talk to a counselor.

And honestly, if you have abuse in your past, and Fern is an abuser, you may have to move out and have a trial separation with Daisy, to get more distance in there. When Daisy visits you at your place, no talking about Fern at all, not outside therapy sessions.

I get that you wish Daisy would just dump Fern so both of you could get away from the abuser. But if Daisy is hellbent on staying here with Fern, or is having difficulty leaving, because that happens in abuse, save yourself.

If that means a trial separation to get some distance, individual and couples counseling, and more clarity on this situation, do it. You start saving yourself.

You attend couples counseling. Hopefully so does Daisy. Maybe you and Daisy come back together and reconcile through counseling, or counseling makes it clear that this is just not repairable. So you finish breaking up and have as peaceful a divorce possible in the circumstances, and continue individual counseling so you have support through all this.

The feelings are super painful, but you can't hang around here absorbing abuse secondhand. It's not okay to keep yourself in harm's way.

If Daisy won't go with you, save yourself.

I'm sorry. This is really tough.

Click to expand...

Hi there,

Thank you so much for your well thought out response. Firstly, I want to assure you I'm confident I'm not going to hurt myself or anything. I am used to dealing with those feelings. I've done so many years' worth of DBT that I graduated the program and my BPD was considered in remission. This entire thing has made me feel like my progress has gone out the window, though I know a large part of that is just from losing M.

Only a couple things of clarity-- I do apologize for my barely-coherent rambling. I hardly remember even making this post. I'm just exhausted all the time, tbh.

-Pine *is* okay with the openness. He and Fern have their own agreement and people they talk to outside of their marriage.

-I shouldn't have reached out to Fern. I know that now. But when Daisy and I got together, Fern basically said a goodbye to Daisy, like, "I want you to be happy, I just can't watch it." I didn't recognize it as the powerplay it probably was, and instead I saw it as a needlessly missed opportunity for connection and growth for both Daisy and Fern. (She was kind of half in denial about being attracted to females. I don't know how much was just a game to her, though.) So I reached out to let her know I know, and I'm not bothered, and I want them to explore their relationship if and when they want and are ready to. I want Daisy to be happy. And honestly, I just love love. Compersion fills me like electricity and I love it. It's one of my favourite parts of practicing polyamory.

My own excitement also probably added to the whiplash of Fern doing these things.

-This is my confliction.. I do have these feelings of hurt, and lost respect, trust and safety, and it's consuming. I'm also autistic, so I literally need to find reasoning and proper full context to make peace with things in my head. But I don't really agree with these feelings I'm having. The gravity of the situation surely adds to it all, but I can't talk to Daisy about it more, because she's got stress-induced epilepsy and an intolerance to long drawn out emotion. Which is usually right up my alley because facts and candor help me feel better, regardless of the truth, not emotional pandering or circular conversations. But I've not gotten something I need. Just that Daisy can't get rid of her cause she's abusive, but she's across the pond, pays for nothing, insults you and makes you beg for the smallest semblance of feeling like you matter.

Then I end up apologizing because I don't know what I want or need from Daisy, and I feel like a POS because it doesn't make sense to me when there's no physical reliance nor emotional support. (Fern is legitimately too full of herself to even ask how other people are. I'm not exaggerating. She says 'Why would I care unless it interests or benefits me?' Unironically.)

-Daisy has done multiple things to try to help. It's extremely rare she even mentions Fern. And when she does, it's not in a light manner, it's critical. Idk if Daisy is making progress, or just pandering to me. Daisy's changed her phone notification noise. They don't talk on the phone anymore, but I believe that's Fern, because she's very petty.

-I'm in the UK and I haven't got access to NHS or my own housing/funds. That's part of why this is so hard. If I need space, I can only uproot my whole life and move back to the States. It took so, so much to get here. Multiple detentions by immigration for no reason, quite literally saving each others' lives multiple times over.

We were so beautiful, the best and healthiest relationship I've ever had. And it's just been tainted.

I'm also Daisy's first polyamorous experience/relationship. I wanted to make sure she felt full autonomy about everything from the start. My feelings of betrayal make me feel like I'm going against these ideals, which makes me feel disgusted with myself. Bleh. I've been trying to do right by everyone and now I don't even know what I need.

Magdlyn said:

Rather than "see a doctor briefly," get thyself to a therapist. Call a suicide hotline, if you feel like you're going to die. Even if you don't mean you have suicidal ideation, you might self-harm... (My daughter struggled mightily with borderline personality disorder, so I am very familiar with the issues. I have had to create a distance between us.)

This is much more than a "polyamory" problem. This is a big mental health problem. Seek professional help. We are not qualified here.

Click to expand...

Undoubtably, my mental health is intertwining with everything, and I know addressing the polyam aspects within it aren't going to fix my problems. I've done enough DBT to have my BPD qualified as in remission, but this has opened some wounds.
My need for guidance centrals around my emotional needs not aligning with what is my understanding of healthy polyamorous autonomy.

I can deal with my intensity itself when I figure out what kind of framework is needed to sync everything up.

YesThisIsDog242 said:

From my perspective, this seems like a completely valid situation for you to feel betrayed by your wife in.

If it was just that you and the metamour didn’t mesh well, that would be different. We don’t need to love all of our partner’s friends/lovers.

However, this person has actively hurt you in a time where you were very vulnerable. I think there is an ethical obligation of your wife to take it seriously when a friend/lover of hers is aggressive with another loved one. It’s unethical to be a passive observer in that case.

I wish I had more to give, but mainly I wanted to validate your pain of not feeling supported/seen by your wife.

Edit: I did want to add one thing: I know it might feel like death, but I promise that there is a life worth living for yourself if you end up needing to leave your wife for whatever reason. It’s natural and normal for our bodies to treat breakups as akin to death, as humans used to live in considerably smaller communities where being excluded/cast out would mean significantly higher chances of death. (I got this from an interview with a therapist specializing in divorce.) I’d strongly recommend prioritizing reaching out to other supportive people in your life, whether that be friends, family, or even coworkers. They’ll be vital in helping you feel more stable in this situation.

Click to expand...

I actually really, deeply appreciate the entirety of your comment. I'm big on autonomy and I guess I've been really caught off guard by feeling betrayed even though I ethically wouldn't have expected wife to risk her relationship with F over something that was between me and F.
It's like a huge weight lifting off my shoulders-- just knowing maybe I'm not a horrible hypocrite who can't poly right when the going gets tough

Cause I really love just about everything about polyamory. Compersion is my first associated feeling and it's consuming in the best ways. Radical honesty, non judgment, autonomy and not personalizing things, genuine selfless happiness. Those are my favourite things. This experience has really deflated me. I haven't perused dating apps or spoken to anyone, even casually, since all this. I know we all have bad poly experiences but I don't want this to taint my marriage and I just feel like it might have.

P.S// Thank you for sharing that you got from your divorce therapist. That's actually like, weirdly really helpful lol. I appreciate you.

kdt26417 said:

Hello Cavefox,

I just want to say how sorry I am that you are in such a difficult situation. F has treated you horribly, and your wife is in the wrong for not breaking up with F. It would be different if F was getting help for her psychological problems, but of course narcissists never seek help (as they "don't need help"). I'm not sure what to advise as far as breaking up with your wife, I just want to say that you should take care of yourself, and if your wife is making it impossible for you to heal, well, that's something you have to consider. It looks like F has been a bad influence on your wife from the beginning; she should break up with F for her own sake at least. But I don't think she's going to do that. I'm so sorry.

Sympathetically,
Kevin T.

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I don't know if I'm just being ignorant so forgive me. I definitely don't know everything.. but I thought it would be unethical for my wife to break up with F over this? I've always tried to preach total autonomy in relationships so I feel like a hypocrite for even feeling this way, especially being my wife's first polyam relationship

Just that Daisy can't get rid of her cause she's abusive, but she's across the pond, pays for nothing, insults you and makes you beg for the smallest semblance of feeling like you matter. Then I end up apologizing because I don't know what I want or need from Daisy, and I feel like a POS because it doesn't make sense to me when there's no physical reliance nor emotional support

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Who is "she" in that sentence? Daisy is across the pond, pays for nothing, insults you, etc.? Or is FERN doing those things to you?

Is this a case of Fern abuses Daisy and then Daisy abuses you?

I think you could stop prioritizing your "poly ideals" and prioritize safety, because this is not healthy polyamory. This is abuse.

When the dating partner is an abuser, all bets are off the table. What more facts do you need?

• Fern was nasty to you when you were grieving. That's enough for Daisy to dump Fern. Fern was being awful to Daisy's partner, you.
• Fern abused and manipulated Daisy. That's enough for Daisy to dump Fern. Fern was being awful to Daisy.

I know that when things feel emotionally chaotic, getting “the full story” can feel like a way to regain stability or start to make sense of things. But it's not, if trying to collect data keeps you in harm's way.

• Would knowing the exact details of the abuse Fern did to Daisy make it "better?" No.
• Would it make it "forgivable?" No.
• Would it change how you feel about Fern intruding on your grief? No.

Knowing the extent or details of the (Daisy + Fern) relationship will not change the bottom line. The bottom line is still the same-- Daisy is involved with an abuser. It's not safe for you to hang around here absorbing it second hand. You put some distance in there.

You take care of your own well-being first. You might even be in shock. You might want to talk to your GP about all that's going on, see if a sleep aid or anxiety meds are appropriate in your situation, and get a referral to a counselor.

Even on a plane they say to put your own oxygen mask on first before trying to help others.

In abuse, the body must leave before the mind and heart even gets a chance to heal. If you and Daisy make it out together, won't you have all the rest of your days to process? Sure, if you want to. But if processing right now is keeping you in harm's way, do not process right now. It would be like trying to pack a suitcase while the house is on fire. It's better to just get out, let the firemen put the fire out, and process your belongings later.

Could you go home to the US for a visit? Or elsewhere for a vacation? Take a break before considering moving out with a roomie, or making a bigger move back to the US? Even just get a cheap hotel this weekend so you can be safe and get some sleep? If you are exhausted and low on sleep, you can't think well or plan anything.

And in case you need it...


While waiting to talk to a counselor, you might talk to a warm line or a hotline.

I hope things get better for you. This is a lot.

Galagirl

I don't know if I'm just being ignorant, so forgive me. I definitely don't know everything. But I thought it would be unethical for my wife to break up with F over this.

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Personal ethics are personal. A person gets to decide where they lie.

You don't think Fern abusing Daisy is a good enough reason for Daisy to dump Fern?

All anyone needs to say to break up is, "I don't want to do this anymore."

It doesn't have to go out to abuse/manipulation levels. Just say, "I don't want this anymore."

I've always tried to preach total autonomy in relationships, so I feel like a hypocrite for even feeling this way, especially being my wife's first polyam relationship

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You can exercise your autonomy and walk away from this situation if Daisy is still involved with Fern.

Someone has to be the first person your wife poly dates after you. Who comes in what order? That doesn't guarantee the person would be healthy. It doesn't guarantee they are compatible. Lots of people out there in Dating Land are not healthy people. Or they are healthy, but just don't have enough in common. It happens.

It's unfortunate it played out this way, and Daisy's first partner after you turned out to be abusive Fern. But that doesn't mean you stay in the line of fire. I encourage you to talk to a counselor.

GG

What sticks out to me is it seems like you and Daisy live in the UK. She's a "Brit," you're from the US. Daisy "spends all her time online with Americans," including this "POS," Fern.

All of this nastiness is happening online? What? On a Discord? Daisy doesn't have to spend all her time listening to Fern's toxic spew. She can turn off the Discord and do other things. This is just a freaking online relationship? She's having epileptic attacks and you're losing your mind because she's on a Discord with a jerk?

Daisy was mean to you about your philanthropic friend M right after M's death, and that was all a Snapchat conversation? You couldn't have just blocked her from your Snapchat memorial to M? Let go of Fern. Cut her out of your life. She can think what she thinks and do what she does, and it doesn't have to matter to you, across the Atlantic, one little bit.

Get some perspective. You're too tied up in this crap.

You have autonomy just as much as Daisy does. If she is chatting online or on the phone with Fern, you can tell her point blank that you don't like Fern and don't want to hear one word about her. We don't have to like our spouse's friends. Polyamory does not mean we have to be friends with our metamours. We all have autonomy.

Is Daisy bored? She has nothing better to do than be online with these nasty Americans? Even though she's passing the toxicity onto you, her actual spouse? And she's in her 30s, and so are you? Just get off the Discord, get new hobbies.

Get medical attention. I don't know how a US citizen goes about getting health care in the UK. If life in the UK isn't working for you, you might need to move back home.

Magdlyn said:

What sticks out to me is it seems like you and Daisy live in the UK. She's a "Brit," you're from the US. Daisy "spends all her time online with Americans," including this "POS," Fern.

All of this nastiness is happening online? What? On a Discord? Daisy doesn't have to spend all her time listening to Fern's toxic spew. She can turn off the Discord and do other things. This is just a freaking online relationship? She's having epileptic attacks and you're losing your mind because she's on a Discord with a jerk?

Daisy was mean to you about your philanthropic friend M right after M's death, and that was all a Snapchat conversation? You couldn't have just blocked her from your Snapchat memorial to M? Let go of Fern. Cut her out of your life. She can think what she thinks and do what she does, and it doesn't have to matter to you, across the Atlantic, one little bit.

Get some perspective. You're too tied up in this crap.

You have autonomy just as much as Daisy does. If she is chatting online or on the phone with Fern, you can tell her point blank that you don't like Fern and don't want to hear one word about her. We don't have to like our spouse's friends. Polyamory does not mean we have to be friends with our metamours. We all have autonomy.

Is Daisy bored? She has nothing better to do than be online with these nasty Americans? Even though she's passing the toxicity onto you, her actual spouse? And she's in her 30s, and so are you? Just get off the Discord, get new hobbies.

Get medical attention. I don't know how a US citizen goes about getting health care in the UK. If life in the UK isn't working for you, you might need to move back home.

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Honestly, here's my thing. I did block Fern from everything. Once someone shows me they are unapologetically toxic, I don't have allowances anymore.

The stuff with Fern blindsighted me. We had been fine and then I made that post and she messaged me, which is where that whole argument happened. I've had 0 contact with her since.

Also yes our circumstances are a bit extenuating. Daisy's family has dropped her, we've got no friends that still live near us, and now she is agoraphobic (which we are trying to get on top of). I think from Daisy's perspective, and their history (Fern was there for Daisy through a divorce etc but there's an additional trauma bond which she sort of admits).

Daisy doesn't really mention her much or talk on the phone. She's done things to try to quell my anger towards Fern and the situation. I have a lot of guilt because these things she's done clearly haven't alleviated the weight of it.

I'm losing my mind because I can't seem to break the fixation of my feelings of betrayal and I guess I have a hard time just accepting things without having that full resolution of answers of WHY, if that makes sense. I have never needed to like anyone in my partners' lives (although I usually do unless they are garbage people). It's not about me and it shouldn't be. That's why I'm in so much turmoil about this, because it's not working to use these facts to reason my feelings about this away. It's how I've always grounded myself with every emotionally overwhelming situation - autism and BPD therapies have ensured I've got those capabilities but they're just not working here.

Daisy wasn't mean to me about M. That was all Fern, and Daisy also has let me vent about Fern's crappiness, though I always have tried keeping that minimal for obvious reasons.

I don't understand what more my emotions need to heal other than Daisy blocking Fern, but obviously I don't agree with asking that of her. Idk, it was suggested we try some couple's counseling or something like that. Maybe that would help bridge this gap. My life in the UK is fine as a base, I guess I just wish I had more resources.

Glad you blocked Fern on all the things. Be done with Fern.

Daisy doesn't really mention her much or talk on the phone. She's done things to try to quell my anger towards Fern and the situation. I have a lot of guilt because these things she's done clearly haven't alleviated the weight of it.

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Rather than try to quell your anger, do you need Daisy to actually acknowledge your anger and the impact this all had on the (you + Daisy) relationship? Like actually face it with you, rather than avoid or stuff it under a rug?

Do you need to acknowledge and express your anger appropriately?

I'm losing my mind because I can't seem to break the fixation of my feelings of betrayal

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What is the specific thing you feel betrayed by at this point in time? Are you feeling angry and hurt about how Daisy keeps trying to "quell" your anger? It sounds like when Daisy tries to quell/suppress it, rather than actually hear you, it feels invalidating, or like she’s trying to shut down what you’re feeling, instead of trying to understand it.

If that is happening here, that can make anger spike again in another layer of upset. So it's like you never get done. It loops back around again.

I have a hard time just accepting things without having that full resolution of answers of WHY, if that makes sense.

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Fern is an abusive narcissist. She does poor behaviors. That's all the "why" there is there. You have blocked her and and removed yourself from Fern, so whatever new poor behaviors she's doing don't ding you.

Daisy is not well if she's being abused. You mentioned she doesn't process emotions well, either. It doesn't make it okay to do some of these behaviors toward you, though. It's a possible reason, but not an excuse. It might even ping you twice. Like she didn't show up for you in telling Fern off for intruding. And now she's not showing up for you emotionally either. You both may be hitting a personal limitation -- where you want her to do/be things she doesn't have capacity for on some of the parts. And in other parts she's just dinging you, and she could change her behavior.

You mentioned being autistic. Some autistic people have "justice sensitivity." If that is you too, then this hits on that layer also.

You will probably need a counselor's help to unpack all of this more fully. It's a lot that is tangled up together.

So that means being okay enough being upset for now. It's not fun to feel upset, but if you are waiting on an appointment, the appointment will eventually come. You could hang tight through this discomfort, and try not to pile new things on top.

I encourage you to make the appointment. I encourage you to call "truce" with Daisy, and not talk about this outside of your therapy sessions, if it just leads to more upset trying to talk about it by yourselves.

You can call warm lines, hot lines, talk to a trusted friend, talk online, write in a journal to organize your thoughts for counseling... you have options if you choose to avail yourself.

With Daisy -- try to live some "normal life" in there. Watch some TV, order a pizza. It's been a lot, and both of you might appreciate some down time doing normal, even boring kinds of things. Fold laundry. Practice a "pause" while you wait for the appointment.

I have never needed to like anyone in my partners' lives (although I usually do unless they are garbage people). It's not about me and it shouldn't be.

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Your logic is not sound. Fern writing garbage on your Snapchat is about you. You were harmed by Fern's behavior.

Daisy "staying out of it" and not speaking to Fern about the poor behavior caused you secondary harm. It is about you. You were the one harmed by Daisy's behavior.

Fern abusing Daisy is a huge problem. There Daisy is/was being harmed.

But don't write yourself out of the picture entirely. You too were harmed. You can take up some space here.

That's why I'm in so much turmoil about this, because it's not working to use these facts to reason my feelings about this away.

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One doesn't reason their feelings away. One feels their feelings and expresses their feelings. One lets it out appropriately. Then one checks if behaviors need to change.

If something keeps triggering the same painful feelings over and over, you can acknowledge that it hurts, that you don’t like it, and take care of yourself in response. But you also have to examine behaviors that led to this and make changes.

What is the behavior or situation that’s leading to these feelings popping out? Is there anything that can be changed, or any boundaries that need to be set?

Otherwise, more of the same behaviors means more of the same feelings will ensue.

It's how I've always grounded myself with every emotionally overwhelming situation - autism and BPD therapies have ensured I've got those capabilities, but they're just not working here.

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Sometimes other tools are needed, which is why you might see a counselor.

Are you good at feeling and expressing anger appropriately? Is it hard for you to say when you’re angry?

Does it feel "disloyal" or "less than poly ideal" to be angry with your wife's behaviors?

I don't understand what more my emotions need to heal other than Daisy blocking Fern, but obviously I don't agree with asking that of her.

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Why not? You can always ask. She can say "Okay" or "No, thanks." Isn't that what autonomy means? Each one of you has ability to make your own choices and direct your own life.

It is fair for you to have a personal boundary called "If Daisy hangs around abusers, then I can't be this close to Daisy. I don't want abuse near me."

Is that why you don't ask? You are scared you'd have to enforce the boundary?

Galagirl

Hi Cavefox,

You have to consider the extremity of how bad Fern treated you. There are limits to how bad a metamour treats you before Daisy breaks up with them. Also you have to consider that the Daisy-Fern relationship isn't good for Daisy because Fern is abusive towards Daisy. So she should break up with Fern for reasons that have nothing to do with you. I understand that you want to respect Daisy's autonomy, being that she's so new to poly, but as I said, there are limits to how badly she'll let Fern treat you.

Sympathetic regards,
Kevin T.

kdt26417 said:

You have to consider the extremity of how bad Fern treated you. There are limits to how bad a metamour treats you before Daisy breaks up with them.

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No. There are limits to how badly Fern acts towards Daisy, and towards Cavefox her/themself, before she/they breaks up with Daisy, if it come to that.

kdt26417 said:

Also you have to consider that the Daisy-Fern relationship isn't good for Daisy because Fern is abusive towards Daisy. So she should break up with Fern for reasons that have nothing to do with you.

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That can be discussed, but that doesn't address Cavefox's own autonomy. And it probably triggers her/their fears around impinging on Daisy's autonomy. It's not her/their place to tell or force Daisy to do this or that. They aren't her parent.

kdt26417 said:

I understand that you want to respect Daisy's autonomy... There are limits to how badly she'll let Fern treat you.

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1. Daisy doesn't have any control over how badly Fern treats Fox.
2. Fox has blocked Fern, so she isn't currently abusing Fox anyway. Fox is struggling with past hurts Fern caused Fox that they can't seem to let go of. And Fox is struggling with their own current emotions and behaviors, and their communication with Fern, as GG accurately pinpointed.
3. Fox needs a counselor to sort this out.

I'd just like to say that while not impeding upon a partners' authonomy is seen as a virtue by some polyamorous people, I don't think it's beneficial to hold it as a moral imperative. It would be extreme to expect yourself to be ok with every metamour regardless of their behavior towards you.

There have been people on this forum dealing with drug addict metamours and similar. It's perfectly legit to wish such a person was out of their lives....

Your partner doesn't have an obligation to break up with metamour, but you can certainly ask her to consider that if they have crossed your limits.

Magdlyn said:

No. There are limits to how badly Fern acts towards Daisy, and towards Cavefox himself, before he breaks up with Daisy, if it come to that.

That can be discussed, but that doesn't address Cavefox's own autonomy. And it probably triggers his fears around impinging on Daisy's autonomy. It's not his place to tell or force Daisy to do this or that. He's not her dad.

1. Daisy doesn't have any control over how badly Fern treats Fox.
2. Fox has blocked Fern, so she isn't currently abusing him anyway. He is struggling with past hurts Fern caused him that he can't seem to let go of. And he is struggling with his own current emotions and behaviors, and his communication with Fern, as GG accurately pinpointed.
3. Fox needs a counselor to sort this out.

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The OP is female, according to their profile.

ref2018 said:

The OP is female, according to their profile.

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Oh, good call. I see they did say they were gay/non-binary in the OP here. Forgot. Thanks.

Stupidly, polyamory.com makes us chose male or female as a gender, and nothing else, so I am not sure which pronoun to use. I'm non-binary, but I use she/her, myself.

(I hardly ever read profiles without a specific reason.)

Sorry to mis-pronoun you, Cavefox. I'll edit.