Struggling with navigating relationship boundaries after betrayal/polybombing and opposing viewpoints on what is "controlling" or "reasonable"

Hi everyone. I'm sorry if this is long. I've put a tl;dr at the bottom.

I'm in a very tough spot, emotionally and logistically. I just joined out of desperation for perspective from people who are neutral, but also not temperamentally anti-poly.

I am not poly, and if I'm being completely honest, I now have a lot of qualms with polyamory. Some of which are coming from trauma, but I think some of which are just genuine philosophical differences.

My partner and I, after 18 years together, have had a rupture. We had been dabbling in ENM for a couple years, but only ever together. We had obviously come into contact with the Poly world through these adventures and had some (what I thought were) casual conversations about it. I mentioned that I was very disinterested in polyamory. I like the fun of exploring sexually together, but I was happy monogomous too. If I had to choose between strict monogamy or polyamory, I'd choose monogamy. But being able to have sexual play, and play friends was a fun perk that I appreciated. My partner had offhandedly said in response "I think I could be poly if that were something you were interested in." This was, in hindsight, very important.

What I heard was: "Polyamory is a relationship structure, and it is one that I think I would be able to function within if that were something you were interested in, though you just said explicitly that you were not."

What I now know she meant was: "Polyamory is an identity, like being gay or trans, and I think I may be that."

So I knew there was an openness to polyamory on her end. But I didn't take it as some sort of pressing issue.

Months later she had been consistently saying that she regretted that because we met so young that she had no 1-on-1 sexual encounters without me. And that group sex was fun, but the "vibe is different" and she wants to expand. Up to this point our rule was always that we never do anything physical without the other person present. She had interest in threesomes, and was way more interested in mfm than fmf, despite her pansexuality. So I participated in 3 different mfm threesomes. But she said she was always anxious about me the whole time and couldn't lose herself.

So eventually I agreed to a one-off sexual encounter with someone we do not know. The plan was to meet through an app. Go on a one or two dates to determine comfort. Then hook up, and leave it at that. I made very clear that I was incredibly uncomfortable with this. But I was willing to stretch my comfort levels for her exploration, and investigate my feelings to see how I feel about it all. But the only sure thing was that it would be a one-off, and she and this person could not remain seriously in each other's lives, though they could add each other on social media.

I explained, multiple times (not just in preparation for this encounter), that I was very uncomfortable with relationships where there is an intersection of Intimacy/Romance, exclusivity (from me), and sexual interaction. You can have sex and intimacy if I'm involved, you can have sex and exclusivity if it's a purely sexual one-night-stand thing, but I'm incredibly uneasy with the point where it starts to feel like another romantic/sexual partnership.

It went poorly. We agreed that she would communicate if they went back to his place. She only communicated to tell me that they weren't going to his place and she was coming home. Then she came home and told me they had been making out and touching each other in public in the corner bar that I liked to go to in front of people. I was incredibly hurt... but I also recognize that a boundary wasn't crossed. I had expected a text saying "we're leaving the bar to go____" if something physical was going to happen. But that expectation was not literally what we agreed on. She didn't do anything wrong, but I had a bad reaction. Panic attacks, feelings of worthlessness, etc. It became pretty clear that this was not something I was actually comfortable with. She said she was going to pause the initial plan and not move forward with anything romantic or sexual.

Then for the next couple weeks it seemed like she was always disappearing into her phone. She was waking up early to text. And staying up late. Long car rides she wouldn't hear anything I was saying because she'd just be messaging.

Then I caught her sexting him one night. I asked what she was doing, and she said that she was just slowly getting ready for bed. I asked if she was sexting this guy, and she said "no." Then I said I had seen a message pop up on her home screen when she left it on the table near me for a minute, and she finally admitted it.

She said she thought that sexting him was ok, and that she hadn't sent nudes. I asked if I could read their conversations, and she had sent nudes (covered nipples, but otherwise fully nude). And they had been sending dozens/hundreds of messages back and forth each day. She got a "good morning, beautiful" text from him every morning. And a "Good night, can't wait to chat more tomorrow" every evening. She said she didn't inform me how intense their connection was because she knew I was stressed and didn't want to hurt me.

But I felt this crossed a line. But then she said: "He's very important to me, and I need to have him in my life. I agree to cut off sexual interactions. But I insist on maintaining him as a friend, because he means a lot, and we both want to have each other in our lives."

Then she said: "He helped me realize that I'm poly, and I need this. This is just going to happen again, and so we're going to have to figure out how you can learn to accept this."

So the past year has been a blur of us trying to heal and make things work. Largely because the introduction of Polyamory as her identity, that she will feel unfulfilled without getting to take action upon has been tied to my feelings of hurt and betrayal. This has all been compounded by the fact that there is a relationship that, to me, feels like an affair. For a year, she kept cutting down contact with him for me. But periodically he'd still message her random "I miss you and value you and wish we could see each other more," and I'd spiral.

After nearly a year, she agreed to finally stop following him on social media (for a limited period of time). But she says "a partner vetoing someone from your life is wrong," and she's telling me it's going to be impossible not to resent me for this.

I generally agree that there's trouble with someone telling you that you can't be friends with someone else. But in an affair, cutting contact with the affair partner is most often understood as the first step towards healing. And it's the step preventing me from healing so that I can even process the whole "I need to be poly, and if you can't support that, I might not be willing to stay with you" thing. To me, cutting contact is the necessary step for us to work on how to proceed.

She doesn't agree that this was a cheating dynamic. I don't agree that the situation can only be viewed through the lens of what's "ok in a poly dynamic" since we were distinctly not in a poly dynamic when this started. (Well, she was, but hadn't communicated it effectively to me.)

So there's a lot of ambiguity. We weren't completely monogamous. There's lots of gray area. Maybe my feelings of betrayal and trauma are over the top. But I need to know if I have crossed a threshold of controlling behavior or abuse by asking her to cut ties with this person. I don't know up from down anymore. How do I navigate these gray areas, drastically opposing perspectives on what has happened, and actually move towards healing from the trauma that has been caused in a way that can be respectful of what she's going through?

I'm hurt that she can't see this as a necessary step towards working on things together. She's hurt that I can't just be happy for her to have a platonic friendship that has clearly communicated sexual interest as long as they don't act on it (again... yet?) I feel like anything that happened has to be perceived under the agreed-upon boundaries of the relationship before the announcement of poly as an identity, and in that context, that this was cheating, and needing a separation to heal before being able to even properly engage with the idea of polyamory is reasonable. But she's hurting, and I feel guilty for needing that. I'm in a catch-22 where everything hurts, nothing as much as the thought of losing her. I also feel I'm being invalidated. Told that I shouldn't feel such trauma. This wasn't that bad. This is all just because of some deeper insecurity that I have to work on to allow her to be herself, etc. I'm trying to be open minded, but I'm so disoriented it's hard to know how to even begin to engage.

TL;DR
My partner of almost 2 decades turned a mutually agreed-upon one-night-stand into a deep romantic poly relationship situation without fully realizing that she was doing so until it was too late. She then "came out" as poly to me when I discovered what had happened. I asked her to cut ties with the person because this was a violation of my boundaries, and she believes I am rejecting her new poly identity, and being controlling by exercising a "veto" that I have no right to ask for. I am not poly, and I don't know what way is up anymore. I love her more than anything, and I don't want to harm her through unreasonable behavior, but I feel after a betrayal that asking for a cessation of contact with the other party is reasonable, regardless of whether she individually identifies as poly or not.

Thanks in advance for any guidance or perspective on this.

Hello thestrugglebus,

Polyamory isn't right for everyone, you have a right to position yourself against it. The sad truth is, you and your partner may have reached a point of incompatibility. She has realized that she is fundamentally poly, you have known that you are fundamentally opposed to poly. I don't know if the two of you can stay together given this glaring difference. I don't doubt that that's not something you want to hear, you are looking for a way to make peace with your partner. The only way I see that happening is, one of you will have to be unhappy. The question of whether she should cut contact with this other guy is just one manifestation of this reality. You haven't crossed a threshold into controlling behavior, you feel that she has conducted an affair and that is a valid feeling.

Sympathetically,
Kevin T.

thestrugglebus said:

TL;DR
My partner of almost 2 decades turned a mutually agreed-upon one-night-stand into a deep romantic poly relationship situation without fully realizing that she was doing so until it was too late. She then "came out" as poly to me when I discovered what had happened. I asked her to cut ties with the person because this was a violation of my boundaries, and she believes I am rejecting her new poly identity, and being controlling by exercising a "veto" that I have no right to ask for. I am not poly, and I don't know what way is up anymore. I love her more than anything, and I don't want to harm her through unreasonable behavior, but I feel after a betrayal that asking for a cessation of contact with the other party is reasonable, regardless of whether she individually identifies as poly or not.

Thanks in advance for any guidance or perspective on this.

Click to expand...

This sounds like a very painful experience for you. I think your wife is taking very, very little accountability for her needs and motives here.

Your wife seems to have a pattern of saying she didn't know that she was doing anything that was breaking your relationship contract boundaries. I have a hard time believing this is the case, considering how explicit your boundaries have been and how much she tried to hide her growing relationship with this man.

Based on the information you've given, she had(/is having?) an affair. Affairs are one of the most common and emotionally intense acts of betrayal that a romantic partner can do, especially if it involves repeatedly gaslighting and shaming their partner to cover it up. To cover up the ethical weight and societal baggage that comes with affairs, she's tried to assuage this by saying she's poly. Whether or not she's poly doesn't actually matter, since there was no mutually-respected transition period from mono to poly between you two. From the current information, it seems more like she coerced you into acting like this is polyamory by giving you an ultimatum after she was already in the middle of breaking your previously-stated relationship boundaries.

I think it makes a lot of sense that you've felt bewildered, angry, and resentful. Your agency in this relationship dynamic hasn't been validated or respected in a while. She's utilized a lot of manipulative and avoidant tactics to avoid stating how big a transition like this is, and how little agency you've been afforded in being a part of it. Additionally, it seems like there's already been a lot of damage done to the relationship through this year of poly hell that you've been through.

To make sure I'm coming across how I want to: Your wife isn't wrong for feeling unsatisfied with the relationship dynamic you desire. It is completely within her right to desire something different. However, you've been married in a romantically monogamous relationship for two decades. There's a lot of relationship disentanglement (potentially including divorce/separation) and discussions that have been ignored, and it is significantly at your emotional expense.

Unfortunately, there's only a few options possible (that I can think of) based on what your wife has given you:

- Accept a relationship where the relationship contract where exclusivity and emotional honesty are no longer important values. It seems like a lot of trust has been broken by this experience, and I think this option would make you absolutely miserable based on what you've said about your needs. The often hidden portion of this: It would be a one-way "no rules" contract. Your wife would likely have many, many concerns if you started mirroring her actions.

- Find a good couples counselor to help you transition into separation or reparation. You and your wife seem to have very different views on what a healthy and beneficial relationship looks like for you. I don't think the relationship structure you seek is one that your wife is willing to build with you anymore.

I'd strongly recommend the following podcast episode: https://www.makingpolyamorywork.com/episodes/polyamory-after-an-affair . The therapist says that what your wife is pushing you to do is very unrealistic. It helped validate a lot of my feelings that I had about my ex's similar actions.

I'd also recommend looking up other threads on here of people being coerced into polyamory by there partners. They often lead to separation due to the overwhelming resentment that built up over time through repeated acts of betrayal and invalidation. A lot rests on your wife to start taking accountability for her needs and actions, but that's only something she can choose to do. It's also important and valid for you to have a line (that might already have been crossed; the line is up to you) where reparation is no longer something you're willing to invest in. Trying to control what she does will be ineffective and only cause more damage to both of you. So you'll have to focus on what you can do to protect yourself from further emotional betrayal and harm.

thestrugglebus said:

TL;DR
My partner of almost 2 decades turned a mutually agreed-upon one-night-stand into a deep romantic poly relationship situation without fully realizing that she was doing so until it was too late. She then "came out" as poly to me when I discovered what had happened. I asked her to cut ties with the person because this was a violation of my boundaries, and she believes I am rejecting her new poly identity, and being controlling by exercising a "veto" that I have no right to ask for. I am not poly, and I don't know what way is up anymore. I love her more than anything, and I don't want to harm her through unreasonable behavior, but I feel after a betrayal that asking for a cessation of contact with the other party is reasonable, regardless of whether she individually identifies as poly or not.

Thanks in advance for any guidance or perspective on this.

Click to expand...

I'm very sorry you're going through this! I'll read the whole story later.
Tl;dr: Totally reasonable to ask; totally within her rights to refuse. (Some people are unable to cut ties in the middle of NRE.) The natural consequence, unfortunately, is in most cases divorce I'm sorry again.

I'm sorry this happened.

As far as I understand it, the agreement was a few dates for a vibes check, hook up for no-strings casual sex, and then end it.

While she did not hook up in person, she did not end it. They started doing cybersex/phone sex/texting/swapping nudes. It is not platonic and never was. It's a cheating affair. She's cheating on agreements/not holding up the agreement.

I asked if she was sexting this guy, and she said "no." Then I said I had seen a message pop up on her home screen when she left it on the table near me for a minute, and she finally admitted it.

Click to expand...

It is not admitting it like she was owning it. She lied and you caught her out in it. You saw the notice.

She said she thought that sexting him was ok, and that she hadn't sent nudes.

Click to expand...

Then she switched to playing it down or minimizing it, rather than apologizing for cheating on agreements and lying about it.

She said she didn't inform me how intense their connection was because she knew I was stressed and didn't want to hurt me.

Click to expand...

She flipped it around on you like it was your feelings that were the problem, rather than her behaviors. But who did the behaviors that provoked your feelings into existence? This is getting to be DARVO-ish.

Is this her usual habit? Hop around all the kinds of lies? Flip things around on you? Is she good at taking personal responsibility, or has she always been allergic to it?

She cheated on agreements, and was doing things behind your back, rather than owning it and asking to change agreements, or simply saying, "Heads up... I no longer agree to keep these agreements. They no longer work for me." You might have been disappointed to hear that, but it would have been honest, and skipped this extra layer of hurt from all the lies.

It doesn't really matter if she doesn't see it as cheating on agreements. The bottom line is still the same: You are not up for polyamory. Her continued poor behaviors keep dinging you.

If she now wants to pursue it, you two have become incompatible over time. So, best end it as peacefully as possible, under the circumstances.

But in an affair, cutting contact with the affair partner is most often understood as the first step towards healing. And it's the step preventing me from healing so that I can even process the whole "I need to be poly, and if you can't support that I might not be willing to stay with you" thing. To me, cutting contact, is the necessary step for us to work on how to proceed.

Click to expand...

Same in polyamory. There's an old article on that... I'll see if I can find it.

But basically, that's the consequence. Dumping the cheating affair partner first step of as part of making repair. If the person just won't do it, they don't have to. But the partner who was cheated on can say it's a dealbreaker then. And nope. Not going to try to forgive, do repairs, and try to start again from a fresh slate. Would rather just quit.

You can't force her to dump Dude. But she can't force you to stick around for this either.

I also feel I'm being invalidated. Told that I shouldn't feel such trauma. This wasn't that bad. This is all just because of some deeper insecurity that I have to work on to allow her to be herself, etc. I'm trying to be open minded, but I'm so disoriented it's hard to know how to even begin to engage.

Click to expand...

No. You do not "feel like." You are being invalidated.

She is being herself right now. Behaving poorly!

If she wants polyamory, and sees that you don't, the decent thing to do is to break up peacefully, and not pile on all these lies and, well... gaslighting/emotional abuse stuff. You can google "What does emotional abuse look like?" This is just one.


When she says those things to you, and won't take personal responsibility for how her behavior choices impact you, you can't feel mentally or emotionally safe with her, because it keeps damaging trust.

When all the things are hard, you get to pick your hard. So you could pick the least stinky choice, and break up, because even if you love her, she's not doing loving and kind behaviors towards you. Even if you can't imagine ending things, and life without her right now, it beats being slowly chipped away like this -- one ding after another. There would be the break-up sadness to get through, but the dings would stop, and you would eventually heal and feel better, rather than feeling worse and worse.

I strongly encourage you to talk to a counselor. This is a lot. You don't have to make any rash decisions, but it has been a year since the affair started and came out. It sounds like it's still going. Reduced, but still going. You are allowed to have your limit of tolerance.

Maybe this helps you find someone:

www.polyfriendly.org

so you have support as you figure out your next steps.

I'm sorry. This sounds rough.

Galagirl

Thanks folks.
Obviously a lot of what is being said is existentially terrifying to me. But I do value the perspectives and help orienting myself within this situation.

I've been pretty isolated socially, largely as a result of this, and so even just having certain feelings validated (and/or challenged) is a bit of a relief that makes me feel that I'm not wandering through all this completely blindly.

YesThisIsDog242 said:

I'd strongly recommend the following podcast episode: https://www.makingpolyamorywork.com/episodes/polyamory-after-an-affair . The therapist says that what your wife is pushing you to do is very unrealistic. It helped validate a lot of my feelings that I had about my ex's similar actions.

I'd also recommend looking up other threads on here of people being coerced into polyamory by there partners. They often lead to separation due to the overwhelming resentment that built up over time through repeated acts of betrayal and invalidation. A lot rests on your wife to start taking accountability for her needs and actions, but that's only something she can choose to do. It's also important and valid for you to have a line (that might already have been crossed; the line is up to you) where reparation is no longer something you're willing to invest in. Trying to control what she does will be ineffective and only cause more damage to both of you. So you'll have to focus on what you can do to protect yourself from further emotional betrayal and harm.

Click to expand...

Thanks so much for the response. I've been avoiding reading too much poly stuff, listening to podcasts, etc. because I keep finding myself triggered by it all. But that specific podcast episode (which I haven't finished yet) is speaking to my situation very well and helping me organize my thoughts, and consider what steps forward may look like.

GalaGirl said:

Is this her usual habit? Hop around all the kinds of lies? Flip things around on you? Is she good at taking personal responsibility, or has she always been allergic to it?

Click to expand...

You know... it really hadn't been until all this started. But I also never had confronted her about something so major before. She's always been a very honorable person, overall, from my point-of-view.

Thank you for the perspective and additional resources. I'll used them going forward.

thestrugglebus said:

You know... it really hadn't been until all this started. But I also never had confronted her about something so major before. She's always been a very honorable person, overall, from my point-of-view.

Click to expand...

Here are my thoughts relevant to that. I guess I was in a similar place. I was and am a person of my word, respectful, honorable, intelligent, even intellectual, strong, supportive of others, nurturing and all that.

However, back in the day when I was in my long mono/hetero marriage, despite my feminism, I was still mired in my cultural brainwashing around how it's more "honorable" and "good" to be mono, especially as a woman. After all, we've had 2000-3000 years of the chokehold of the patriarchy beating us down since birth, to be true to our man (while men can get away with not being true to one woman).

Your nameless "partner" of 18 years has to (try to) adjust to her polyamorous feelings and behaviors just as much as you are trying to do. Despite the casual swinging, it was a "couple" thing, where her "owner," you, were fully involved, and keeping an eye on what she was doing sexually with another guy, as a "loaner," so to speak.

"Here, borrow my lawnmower. I'll enjoy watching you use it from next door. And it will make my lawn look better to have your lawn look good, until you can buy your own lawnmower. Let's shake on it, buddy." Something like that.

Your female partner branching out autonomously, fully engaging with another man one-on-one, is a completely different ballgame. And that is why I aver the modern polyamory movement is one propelled by feminism, as opposed to partner swapping, swinging, hotwifing, even cuckolding (in the modern fetish sense), etc.

I also lied to my ex-husband about my polyamorous feelings, and eventual doings, only admitting to stuff bit by bit, under close questioning, because I was literally fighting 3000 years of harsh training by my parents, grandparents, friends, friend's parents, schools, church, media, advertisements, etc. I hardly stood a chance. I felt I needed to hold onto my marriage. It was my social and economic safety net, especially after I had three children in five years.

So, Partner is not your enemy, and she's not actually fighting or betraying you, personally. In my opinion, she isn't "bad," nor does she need to be mocked, or looked down upon as as a liar, a flip-flopper, allergic to taking personal responsibility, deserving of being cut off from your love and the common-law(?) marriage tout de suite.

(It seems she doesn't even have the social and legal protection of a marriage certificate here.)

It isn't that she isn't "loving and kind" that's at the bottom of this, imo. She is just expected to live life as a possession and a second-class citizen, and she's realizing that this situation-- where it's okay to be with another man only while her husband breathes down her neck (literally, heh) feels denigrating. Are we still assuming women are weak, sneaky, "uppity"? Or is it that the system is inherently unfair and unequal, and we women don't want to bend our necks anymore?

I am part way through reading this older thread with a similar topic-- written by a man who was used to swinging with his wife in MFM sexual threesomes, until she took a liking to a guy and started doing one-on-one stuff autonomously. The horror.

You know, from my lived experience, I have a lot of sympaties for your wife, although she's the one stepping outside agreements (partially! she's now held off of exploring her sexual desire for this person for a year). I do feel your pain, but as you say, there's a lot of grey in the story.

The mismatch between preferred styles of ENM you are experiencing is, I believe, rather common. Many women can't, or don't desire to, separate sex and feelings, or even feel used when having sex with someone they don't love. Many men open the pandora box of non-monogamy readily as long as it's sex only. So you opened up for play and your partner followed suit - yet upon doing so she realized she desired more, and met someone she really clicked with. She knows you'd disagree of her feelings, but what to do? Suppress everything? So she chose to accept poly as an identity [to me that's almost always dubious, but that's a nuanced topic], hold off on physically betraying you in any way, and see if you can come to terms with how she is.

You say you want her to drop this "affair" partner so that you can heal, but look what you're asking her to do:
- drop a genuine connection, which is something rare and valuable... sometimes we say there's a lot of people you can click with out there to ease breakup pain, but in fact, for a lot of people, it only happens several times in their lifetime
- accept your terms of how the relationship functions for an indefinite period of time
And, you know - and please mind I've been in a remotely similar position recently - I do have to ask why - why specifically would this partner be worse than any other (sex or romance) partner she could choose later? If you can't do it with this one, why do you think it would be easier with anyone else? If she drops this one, what would ever make you examine your beliefs, change your mind and give her the freedom to choose her own (sex or romance) partners? If she accepts your veto of this one, what certainty does she have that you won't veto everyone else for one reason or another?

At the same time, none of you wants to break up. You have a lot in common, including the love that's been going on for 20 years. So she takes steps towards the life she wants, hoping you come around, and you keep demanding she takes a step back to the life you want, hoping she drops this madness, which unfortunately seems to be an important part of herself.

Is dropping the affair partner gonna solve your mismatch? Hardly. Will it help you feel better? Maybe. Does it help her get closer to living the life she wants, which involves keeping you and having other partners? Not straightforwardly. Depends a lot on your attitude.
It's a big fear that if you drop a person because of your partner's demands, you'll never be able to fulfil your wishes at all.

Are you able to
a) address some of the concerns I voice above (or any other your wife has) and, in case she does drop this intimate friend, give her a timeframe and steps you will take to come to terms with her newfound identity, or
b) stand by yourself and make it clear any form of polyamory is a dealbreaker and you're breaking up with her unless you can reestablish monogamous agreements?
Because this has been going on for a year and at this point you both can see it's unsustainable.

Even if she's struggling with her upbringing, realizing that she's polyamorous and she wants that now, unpacking whatever else, someone can genuinely realize they are polyamorous. That’s real. While “discovering” or “realizing” something about herself might explain some of her behaviors, it doesn’t automatically justify it or erase responsibility for how she handled it.

Realizing new things about herself doesn't erase current agreements, nor does it obligate you, Strugglebus, to accept polyamory if you don't want any.

This cheating thing didn't happen last week. It's been ongoing for a year.

She is just expected to live life as a possession and a second-class citizen, and she's realizing that this situation-- where it's okay to be with another man only while her husband breathes down her neck (literally, heh) feels denigrating.

Click to expand...

No. She doesn't have to live like that. She could have said "No, thanks. I don't want any of that" from the start." People don't have to want any ENM at all. If she used to like that, but changed her mind, she can say "I want to change agreements. I don't want to do things together all the time/any more. I want to date solo on my side."

What behavior happened?

• She agreed to limits she later exceeded.
• She concealed the depth of the attachment.
• She lied directly when confronted.

To me, telling lies like this is not kind. It would have been more honest to say, "I'm confused. I want both of you. I'm scared, etc.," than piling on extra layers of complexity with the lies.

In the end? You don't want polyamory at all, TheStruggleBus. And even if you might consider it, you're sure not gonna with the cheating affair partner in the mix, because you could heal from the breakup and move on to poly date on your own with people who didn't come with a cheating start. Start your poly-dating life from "neutral," rather than "in the hole." You do not have to have him or her in your new poly network.

So if she does want polyamory? And she wants to keep going with Dude? She's not willing to drop him? This is not compatible anymore.

I think people sometimes get lost in the "side quest" conversations. Sometimes there's a lot of grief stuff in the way too, like anticipatory grief, bargaining stage of grief, anger, fear of being on their own after being partnered a long time, dealing with changes, etc.

Sometimes there's some finger pointing -- You did this! Oh, yeah? You did that!

Do any of these side issues even matter if they keep circling back to the same bottom line? People who have become incompatible over time and want different things now-- at some point one has to go, "I'm tired of the going in circles/going nowhere on this," and, "I'm tired of hurting."

I didn't catch if this is a long-term relationship that is legally married or not. But if not compatible, sometimes rather than fight or argue in circles, one lets it go as peacefully as possible, under the circumstances.

You don't have to make rash decisions, but I encourage you to do your soul searching, maybe with the help of a counselor, so you can figure out what you want to do next. You are the one there. You are the one who knows how bad this is in real life or not. You decide where your limit of tolerance lies.

But I think you feeling upset over how all this came about makes sense. It wasn't great.

Galagirl

GalaGirl said:

Even if she's struggling with her upbringing, realizing that she's polyamorous and she wants that now, unpacking whatever else, someone can genuinely realize they are polyamorous. That’s real. While “discovering” or “realizing” something about herself might explain some of her behaviors, it doesn’t automatically justify it or erase responsibility for how she handled it.

Realizing new things about herself doesn't erase current agreements...

Click to expand...

You could reread the OP. Strugglebus seems to realize himself something you are avoiding perceiving. His partner fell in love with another man without meaning to. I believe she couldn't have renegotiated agreements right away, because she didn't fully realize, or allow herself to admit, that she was falling for this other guy. How can she tell Struggle what she's going through, and articulate the changes she wants to make, if she is not fully cognizant of it herself?

She's not Superwoman. She's just on a self-awareness journey, like we all are. It's messy. It's layered. It's nuanced.

This couple was playing with fire. They met young. The woman here has never had another sex/romance partner. It appears Struggle had, before committing to this partner. In a conservative culture, it's more common for the young man to have had more sexual experience than the good "pure" girl, even if there is lip service to how both should keep themselves "pure" for marriage. I realize they don't seem to be married, but still seem to have committed very young.

It would be interesting to see just why that happened. It would also be interesting to see why they "opened up" to non-monogamy, but as sex-only adult playtime, no feelings allowed. But whatever. They did. And Struggle liked it, a lot. However, his partner did not, as Tinwen pointed out. She was probably confused. She liked the sex, somewhat. She liked the MFM, somewhat. She didn't want FMF, despite being "pansexual." (This pansexuality seems to be another realization, along with the polyamory.) This concerns her sexuality unfolding in brand-new fucking territory.

How can you expect the female Partner here to be right on top of things, like a girl-boss CEO, in her pencil skirt and stilettos, with contract forms in hand, ready to negotiate a new deal? Maybe you could, GalaGirl. Maybe you were raised differently. You had two boyfriends at one point, in college, but got married to one of them, and have been living mono ever since. This woman was mono first for close to 20 years, and now she's wanting polyamory. I don't think we can automatically hold her to your standards. This is her journey, not yours.

GalaGirl said:

nor does it obligate you, Strugglebus, to accept polyamory if you don't want any.

Click to expand...

Right. Struggle has admitted to outright terror in the face of his Partner's feelings for another man. He was "incredibly uneasy," "incredibly uncomfortable," and "incredibly hurt." That is a repetition of "incredibly" three times. He was also spiraling and having panic attacks, feeling worthless, etc. His Partner cut down contact with her other guy, but every time Struggle was aware they'd been in touch, he'd freak out again.

It's impossible, or at least, very difficult, to be honest, imo, with a partner who "can't handle the truth." That was part of my problem with my ex-husband. How can you calmly renegotiate your contract when one of the parties is a puddle of panicked goo?

As Tinwen pointed out, it's not so easy to just give up a new love interest to work on the current long-term relationship. The original couple had wandered into that grey (and dangerous!) area of "sex with no feelings." It seems easier for men to have that agreement. We can look at gay male culture. Many (not all) gay male couples are open to casual sex, one-offs, casual sex threesomes. And it seems to work, most of the time. But even men can try casual sex and find themselves falling in love.

Struggle says he's not polyamorous. He was fine separating sex and love. But how many people have we seen here who IDed as mono, until a certain person came along, and all of a sudden they realized they loved two?

Anyway, there is a crossroads here. Struggle wants his partner back, and mono, having cut ties with a guy she's in NRE with, willing and eager to renegotiate the contract rationally and logically, whereas the Partner has declared she must have this guy in her life. She has discovered something new about life and herself, and I think she might feel going back to monogamy with Struggle would feel false and wrong to her.

Meanwhile, Struggle is having strong abandonment and self-esteem concerns. They both have their own personal journeys. I think the gradual unfolding of Partner's realizations about herself, admitting them to herself, and to Struggle when she was clear in her own mind about them, are in the past. The current issue is, what to do now? It's easy to say, just dump the bf and "work on the 'marriage.'" But is the "marriage" worth saving at the expense of each partners' personal health?

She doesn't have to live like that. She could have said "No, thanks, I don't want any of that," from the start. People don't have to want any ENM at all. If she used to like that, but changed her mind, she [could have said], "I want to change agreements. I don't want to do things together all the time/anymore. I want to date solo on my side."

Click to expand...

Shoulda coulda woulda. Irrelevant.

GalaGirl said:

What behavior happened?

• She agreed to limits she later exceeded.
• She concealed the depth of the attachment.
• She lied directly when confronted.

Click to expand...

Sure. That happened. A year ago. I understand why and how it probably happened. Lots of us poly folks have traveled the same road.

GalaGirl said:

Telling lies like this is not kind. It would have been more honest to say, "I'm confused. I want both of you. I'm scared, etc.," than piling on extra layers of complexity with the lies.

Click to expand...

She may well have been expressing confusion and fear, in body language, even if she couldn't express it verbally. I think they were both scared. You can say she was "unkind" and "dishonest," but I think that's a harsh and inaccurate critique.

GalaGirl said:

In the end? You don't want polyamory at all, TheStruggleBus. And even if you might consider it, you're sure not gonna with the cheating affair partner in the mix, because you could heal from the breakup, and move on to poly date on your own with people who didn't come with a cheating start. Start your poly-dating life from "neutral," rather than "in the hole." You do not have to have him or her in your new poly network.

Click to expand...

He says he's not interested in "poly-dating," just casual sex, or monogamy. Fine. He can want that. The Partner is polyamorous.

GalaGirl said:

So if she does want polyamory, and she wants to keep going with Dude, she's not willing to drop him, this is not compatible anymore.

Click to expand...

Probably not.

GalaGirl said:

I think people sometimes get lost in the "side quest" conversations. Sometimes there's a lot of grief stuff in the way too, like anticipatory grief, bargaining stage of grief, anger, fear of being on their own after being partnered a long time, dealing with changes, etc.

Sometimes there's some finger pointing -- You did this! Oh, yeah? You did that!

Do any of these side issues even matter if they keep circling back to the same bottom line?

Click to expand...

Well, he told us the story to give us background.

GalaGirl said:

People who have become incompatible over time and want different things now-- at some point one has to go, "I'm tired of the going in circles/going nowhere on this," and, "I'm tired of hurting."

Click to expand...

Right. Choose short-term pain and grief over long-term mess.

GalaGirl said:

I encourage you to do your soul searching, maybe with the help of a counselor, so you can figure out what you want to do next.

Click to expand...

Magdlyn said:

I believe she couldn't have renegotiated agreements right away, because she didn't fully realize, or allow herself to admit, that she was falling for this other guy. How can she tell Struggle what she's going through, and articulate the changes she wants to make, if she is not fully cognizant of it herself?

Click to expand...

Yes. I mostly agree with this, though it's very unpleasant.

The woman here has never had another sex/romance partner. It appears Struggle had, before committing to this partner.

Click to expand...

No, we were both pretty equal in our experiences, which is to say: not experienced. She made the first suggestion towards non-monagamy, and I was interested enough to entertain the idea.

It's easy to say, just dump the bf and "work on the 'marriage.'" But is the "marriage" worth saving at the expense of each partners' personal health?

Click to expand...

Thanks for the perspective here. I think, for me at the moment, the answer is still a clear "yes."
She is going through a lot too. My hope is that we can make enough space for each other to feel safe discussing how to move forward.

thestrugglebus said:

Yes. I mostly agree with this, though it's very unpleasant.

No, we were both pretty equal in our experiences, which is to say: not experienced. She made the first suggestion towards non-monagamy, and I was interested enough to entertain the idea.

Click to expand...

Aha. So she was, after 20 years (her entire adult life) with one partner, never having held another penis in her hand, so to speak, incredibly curious. You went along with it? "Sure, sex with another woman would be fine. Oh, wait. You don't want a threesome with a hot bi babe? You want another penis? Okay, well, just with me, casual threesomes only. Oh wait, you want sex with another guy without me there? Okay, one guy, one time. That's all I allow. (Get it out of your system... Grumble grumble... panic.) Oh wait. You don't want just a guy's penis? You feel drawn to his heart and soul?" Damn.

thestrugglebus said:

Thanks for the perspective here. I think, for me at the moment, the answer is still a clear "yes."

Click to expand...

But what about her? You seem to be at odds. Generally this is when we recommend couples counselig.

thestrugglebus said:

She is going through a lot too. My hope is that we can make enough space for each other to feel safe discussing how to move forward.

Click to expand...

Might help to have a neutral third party in the mix. Safety isn't found where there is panic over "incredibly" negative feelings.

I'm sorry for what you're going through. You're not alone. So many of us here, myself included, have gone through this, and lived to tell the tale, so take courage.

I think the gradual unfolding of Partner's realizations about herself, admitting them to herself, and to Struggle when she was clear in her own mind about them, are in the past.

Click to expand...

I agree there. At a certain point, it becomes "side convo."

I'm not arguing which is harder -- her realization or StruggleBus feeling unheard. I'm saying it is ALL hard.

The current issue is, what to do now? It's easy to say, just dump the bf and "work on the 'marriage.'" But is the "marriage" worth saving at the expense of each partners' personal health?

Click to expand...

No, it is NOT easy for StruggleBus to say that. But neither is it easy for StruggleBus to try to work on the marriage with the cheating affair partner still in the mix.

It is fair for StruggleBus to say "In order to become willing to see if we can repair, this person needs to be out of the picture."

In order to move forward, both people have to be willing to lay cards on the table PLAIN. What they are up for and what they are not. Rather than hem and haw. Then they can see what actually aligns and what does not.

That's not MAKING her dump Dude. It's stating StruggleBus' willingness and ability.

I'm not arguing that there may have been playing with fire, grey area, reasons. I'm saying when asked about being involved? It would have been better to say "Yes, still involved." Rather than lies and then being caught out. It's not great. Adds complexity to an already complex situation. And makes it hard for the cheated on partner to feel confident in anything new she may say. Trust is taking dings.

Whatever the reasons or intent behind the hemming and hawing -- fears or insecure or whatever? It doesn't negate how it lands/impacts StruggleBus.

So yeah. Internet people might be able to help with one or two things. But this is a lot of things going on so best with a counselor.

I'm sorry, StruggleBus. I don't know if you two can repair/reconcile or not. I hope things get better for you one way or another. We cannot tell you what to do. It's your life.

I just joined out of desperation for perspective from people who are neutral, but also not temperamentally anti-poly.

Click to expand...

But I hope it answered that much. You got other perspectives from people not anti-poly.

Galagirl

GalaGirl said:

That's not MAKING her dump Dude. It's stating StruggleBus' willingness.

Click to expand...

Maybe this is an answer to one of the original questions: whether asking her to dump dude is controlling or not.

DEPENDS.

Is it coming from a deep need, deep enough to become a deal breaker? Like really can't feel safe around this person, so if he's around, I can't be around? Than it's a boundary.

Is it coming from a sense of "should"? More like a belief cheating partners should be dumped? But really, it won't help all that much, because the mismatch is elsewhere? Than there's a controling/manipulative element to it.

Tinwen said:

You say you want her to drop this "affair" partner so that you can heal, but look what you're asking her to do:
- drop a genuine connection, which is something rare and valuable... sometimes we say there's a lot of people you can click with out there to ease breakup pain, but in fact, for a lot of people, it only happens several times in their lifetime
- accept your terms of how the relationship functions for an indefinite period of time
And, you know - and please mind I've been in a remotely similar position recently - I do have to ask why - why specifically would this partner be worse than any other (sex or romance) partner she could choose later? If you can't do it with this one, why do you think it would be easier with anyone else? If she drops this one, what would ever make you examine your beliefs, change your mind and give her the freedom to choose her own (sex or romance) partners? If she accepts your veto of this one, what certainty does she have that you won't veto everyone else for one reason or another?

Click to expand...

I think you have some good insights here, but I did want to challenge/explain this part.

Affairs are human and quite common. I don't personally believe that it means that the people within it are inherently evil or anything like that.

However, affairs often include acts of lying, manipulation, gaslighting, and/or shaming to keep them active while sustaining the relationship with their original partner that still thinks they're monogamous.

The earlier podcast episode I recommended covers this well, but there's a lot of pain that comes with being lied to like that. It's very difficult to emotionally process the relationship that was actively hidden from you for months to years, especially if it's still ongoing. Speaking from experience, it's also easy to resent the partner's lover for being an active enabler in the dynamic. There needs to be a lot of emotional vulnerability between the three parties, and also a lot of honesty regarding the power dynamics at play between the three people if they truly wish to heal the rift created there.

"accept your terms of how the relationship functions for an indefinite period of time". This is actually something I had to come to terms with when I tried to create a plan that wasn't completely in my control. I basically asked my ex to break off the romantic entanglement with his affair partner, and we could put active effort in repairing our relationship, repairing my relationship with his affair partner, and prepping our dynamic to sustainably hold polyamory. The plan actively included an exit clause if either of us didn't see the changes we had wanted to after trying it out. He didn't take me up on the plan and insisted that he couldn't do anything that would change his relationship with his new partner. I tried to trust him for an entirety of a week before realizing that he was, in fact, emotionally abusing me and didn't care about taking any responsibility for the life he claimed he wanted to live.

It is significantly harder if they had continued their romance while trying to repair it for two main reasons:

- My brain was still reeling from the deception and things I still didn't know/understand about their previously-hidden relationship. To continue their relationship as it was would mean holding the knowledge that it had been sustained so far by neglecting me, exploiting my trust, and lying to me.

- I had no trust that he could put active effort in our relationship while also engulfing himself in a brand-new, shiny relationship. He had already broken my trust by actively lying to me and openly admitting to emotionally manipulating me. I would be spreading myself very thin to trust that my ex and his partner had any of my interests at heart as they continue their romantic endeavor unbothered.

You're right that it's painful to break off or change a relationship that might have genuine love in it. You're right that this isn't a painless option. That's why you don't have affairs. There isn't a painless option in resolving something that was born from dishonesty. There's a bunch of stories online of the affair partners also being emotionally devastated from the dynamic if it ends in them being cut off, and the original committed couple committing to repair.

Magdlyn said:

You could reread the OP. Strugglebus seems to realize himself something you are avoiding perceiving. His partner fell in love with another man without meaning to. I believe she couldn't have renegotiated agreements right away, because she didn't fully realize, or allow herself to admit, that she was falling for this other guy. How can she tell Struggle what she's going through, and articulate the changes she wants to make, if she is not fully cognizant of it herself?

She's not Superwoman. She's just on a self-awareness journey, like we all are. It's messy. It's layered. It's nuanced.

This couple was playing with fire. They met young. The woman here has never had another sex/romance partner. It appears Struggle had, before committing to this partner. In a conservative culture, it's more common for the young man to have had more sexual experience than the good "pure" girl, even if there is lip service to how both should keep themselves "pure" for marriage. I realize they don't seem to be married, but still seem to have committed very young.

It would be interesting to see just why that happened. It would also be interesting to see why they "opened up" to non-monogamy, but as sex-only adult playtime, no feelings allowed. But whatever. They did. And Struggle liked it, a lot. However, his partner did not, as Tinwen pointed out. She was probably confused. She liked the sex, somewhat. She liked the MFM, somewhat. She didn't want FMF, despite being "pansexual." (This pansexuality seems to be another realization, along with the polyamory.) This concerns her sexuality unfolding in brand-new fucking territory.

How can you expect the female Partner here to be right on top of things, like a girl-boss CEO, in her pencil skirt and stilettos, with contract forms in hand, ready to negotiate a new deal? Maybe you could, GalaGirl. Maybe you were raised differently. You had two boyfriends at one point, in college, but got married to one of them, and have been living mono ever since. This woman was mono first for close to 20 years, and now she's wanting polyamory. I don't think we can automatically hold her to your standards. This is her journey, not yours.

Right. Struggle has admitted to outright terror in the face of his Partner's feelings for another man. He was "incredibly uneasy," "incredibly uncomfortable," and "incredibly hurt." That is a repetition of "incredibly" three times. He was also spiraling and having panic attacks, feeling worthless, etc. His Partner cut down contact with her other guy, but every time Struggle was aware they'd been in touch, he'd freak out again.

It's impossible, or at least, very difficult, to be honest, imo, with a partner who "can't handle the truth." That was part of my problem with my ex-husband. How can you calmly renegotiate your contract when one of the parties is a puddle of panicked goo?

As Tinwen pointed out, it's not so easy to just give up a new love interest to work on the current long-term relationship. The original couple had wandered into that grey (and dangerous!) area of "sex with no feelings." It seems easier for men to have that agreement. We can look at gay male culture. Many (not all) gay male couples are open to casual sex, one-offs, casual sex threesomes. And it seems to work, most of the time. But even men can try casual sex and find themselves falling in love.

Struggle says he's not polyamorous. He was fine separating sex and love. But how many people have we seen here who IDed as mono, until a certain person came along, and all of a sudden they realized they loved two?

Anyway, there is a crossroads here. Struggle wants his partner back, and mono, having cut ties with a guy she's in NRE with, willing and eager to renegotiate the contract rationally and logically, whereas the Partner has declared she must have this guy in her life. She has discovered something new about life and herself, and I think she might feel going back to monogamy with Struggle would feel false and wrong to her.

Meanwhile, Struggle is having strong abandonment and self-esteem concerns. They both have their own personal journeys. I think the gradual unfolding of Partner's realizations about herself, admitting them to herself, and to Struggle when she was clear in her own mind about them, are in the past. The current issue is, what to do now? It's easy to say, just dump the bf and "work on the 'marriage.'" But is the "marriage" worth saving at the expense of each partners' personal health?



Shoulda coulda woulda. Irrelevant.

Sure. That happened. A year ago. I understand why and how it probably happened. Lots of us poly folks have traveled the same road.

She may well have been expressing confusion and fear, in body language, even if she couldn't express it verbally. I think they were both scared. You can say she was "unkind" and "dishonest," but I think that's a harsh and inaccurate critique.

He says he's not interested in "poly-dating," just casual sex, or monogamy. Fine. He can want that. The Partner is polyamorous.

Probably not.

Well, he told us the story to give us background.

Right. Choose short-term pain and grief over long-term mess.

Click to expand...

One thing I see you saying is "a lot of poly people have gone through this same road."

Even if that's true, is it relevant to the ethical weight of the situation? I think that's more of a signifier that we live in a highly mono-normative society that gives us minimal tools for starting or transitioning to a polyamorous relationship. That does not mean that actions taken through this sudden and often reckless form of entering polyamory don't frequently involve significant emotional abuse and/or neglect of the committed partner.

Self-discovery is great. Self-discovery and exploring personal agency when you've been chained down by hetero and mono normative ideals for potentially decades is, I can only imagine, a very overwhelming and liberating experience.

That being said, there's too many times where the person forgets that they have created lives where they still have a partner and/or children that depend on them, and that there's still a lot of hard work that comes with liberating themselves ethically. Even if that relationship dynamic was created through self-oppression, it is still a very real relationship that needs a lot of care for it to dissolve or change to hold their new selves.

Speaking from experience, it is agonizing to be in the position where someone you care about/depend on has, from your perspective, suddenly decided that you are now a burden to their lived experience and leaves you to try to either adapt or leave. It's even more cruel to pretend like the "adapt" option isn't anything more than telling your partner to swim or drown, though swimming ends up meaning you have to push so much hurt down that you become significantly more bitter and resentful. I do find myself angry that you seem to be minimizing the damage that these actions can do to people, even if it come from a very real need or desire. Someone doesn't have to self-flagellate themselves to admit and grapple with the fact that their actions might have caused very real harm.

I fully believe and have seen situations where the ethical burden and emotional harm is reduced due to the inevitable nuance/complexity that comes with human relationships. They tend to be the exception rather than the rule.

YesThisIsDog242 said:

I think you have some good insights here, but I did want to challenge/explain this part.

Affairs are human and quite common. I don't personally believe that it means that the people within it are inherently evil or anything like that.

However, affairs often include acts of lying, manipulation, gaslighting, and/or shaming to keep them active while sustaining the relationship with their original partner that still thinks they're monogamous.

The earlier podcast episode I recommended covers this well, but there's a lot of pain that comes with being lied to like that. It's very difficult to emotionally process the relationship that was actively hidden from you for months to years, especially if it's still ongoing. Speaking from experience, it's also easy to resent the partner's lover for being an active enabler in the dynamic. There needs to be a lot of emotional vulnerability between the three parties, and also a lot of honesty regarding the power dynamics at play between the three people if they truly wish to heal the rift created there.

"accept your terms of how the relationship functions for an indefinite period of time". This is actually something I had to come to terms with when I tried to create a plan that wasn't completely in my control. I basically asked my ex to break off the romantic entanglement with his affair partner, and we could put active effort in repairing our relationship, repairing my relationship with his affair partner, and prepping our dynamic to sustainably hold polyamory. The plan actively included an exit clause if either of us didn't see the changes we had wanted to after trying it out. He didn't take me up on the plan and insisted that he couldn't do anything that would change his relationship with his new partner. I tried to trust him for an entirety of a week before realizing that he was, in fact, emotionally abusing me and didn't care about taking any responsibility for the life he claimed he wanted to live.

It is significantly harder if they had continued their romance while trying to repair it for two main reasons:

- My brain was still reeling from the deception and things I still didn't know/understand about their previously-hidden relationship. To continue their relationship as it was would mean holding the knowledge that it had been sustained so far by neglecting me, exploiting my trust, and lying to me.

- I had no trust that he could put active effort in our relationship while also engulfing himself in a brand-new, shiny relationship. He had already broken my trust by actively lying to me and openly admitting to emotionally manipulating me. I would be spreading myself very thin to trust that my ex and his partner had any of my interests at heart as they continue their romantic endeavor unbothered.

You're right that it's painful to break off or change a relationship that might have genuine love in it. You're right that this isn't a painless option. That's why you don't have affairs. There isn't a painless option in resolving something that was born from dishonesty. There's a bunch of stories online of the affair partners also being emotionally devastated from the dynamic if it ends in them being cut off, and the original committed couple committing to repair.

Click to expand...

I heard the podcast episode after writing my comment, and it's an excellent one, thanks for sharing. I do understand what you are describing (at least to some extent, haven't lived through it).

In the present case, I think there's way more ambiguity. What was hidden were a few weeks of sexting, with a person she got a pass to sleep with (though once) and didn't. I'm not saying it isn't hurtful, but it's closer to wanting to open up with someone specific in mind than to hiding a whole second relationship for weeks or years. I don't want to minimize what she did or the hurt it caused, but I'm actually having a hard time calling it cheating.

Therefore my questions are very much for the OP to reflect on and come up with very personal answers.