A VERY BAD start!

Where do I start?
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I suggest you stop all relationships. Get healthy first. You do not sound well at all.

I would not sign up for BellaWife's offer of

  • Let's Open the Marriage so I can date Dude.
  • I will micromanage who you get to date. They have to meet my approval.
  • I will SAY I don't fuck Dude until you find a GF I approve of.
  • (Unspoken: We sweep all the cheating affair stuff under the rug like I want.)
  • (Unspoken: Everyone does what I say.)

​

That's a hard one to swallow.

As you watch her sweep things under the rug and gets you, Dude and CafeOwner to conspire together with her to keep CafeWife in the dark?

  • You will never wonder what they keep YOU in the dark about? :confused:
  • You will never wonder if she just says she doesn't fuck Dude, but fucks him all she wants while denying her "approval" of any people you date?

If you want to poly or swing now? Seems easier and better tasting for you to design your OWN offer. Extricate yourself from BellaWife mess.

  • I decide to move on.
    • I decided to dump BellaWife, Dude, and CafeOwner from my sex network. Not deal with any of their BS any more.
    • I make me undingable. So even if they all lie and cheat in trio or doubles again? I'm well out of it and incur no new emotional, mental or physical dings from their actions.
  • I decide to (practice polyamory) or (go back to swinging)
    • Nobody micromanges my choices. I am in charge of my own choices.
    • I ask whoever I want out.
    • I invite them into my sex network how I want.
    • I practice "consent first, open and honest and no BS" like I want.

You might live in SF with a high number of poly and swing people, but I doubt any healthy poly people or healthy swing people will go

"Yay! Let's jump into a sex network with Bella999 where BellaWife calls all the shots for everyone. Where either

  • I am kept in the dark about the skeletons in the closet and I interact with untrustworthy people without knowing it. Hooray!

or

  • I am told about the skeletons in the closet. I get to be an accessory after the fact. And I knowingly interact with untrustworthy people. Hooray!

I feel so safe and secure participating here with these people with BellaWife at the helm!"​

I think you need to be talking to people OTHER than BellaWife if you want to gain healthy perspective and be on healthy footing. She's got an agenda.

Instead of looking for a "poly sister" to guide you in what healthy poly is and is not?

You could take personal responsibility for your own education and register to take take a class, join a poly or swing support group, read some books, attend some con panels, and/or go see a counselor who hosts workshops. Take it seriously and prepare seriously.

Not keep associating with people who practice in a way that you already know goes against your own grain. From post 1 you call it a bad start. That got foisted on you. You did not ask for that.

If you sign up for bad continuation with these people when you seem to see all their poor behavior and don't like it? Your bring it upon yourself because you choose to go there.

I suggest you just NOT sign up and forge your own path. Begin with healing from the cheating affair on your own, getting healthy, THEN dating the way you want to date in the Open model(s) you like best.

Galagirl
 
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Yes, this ...

Do not do this to other people, please. Who would want to be involved with someone in such a relationship? Your wife will be all over the person as far as she is able to as it sounds. And you and your wife will have so many unspoken things around you that it will suffocate you with time, having to 'not speak' about it.
 
It should be a reminder that wife and I have been VERY experience swinger's.. so sexual jealousy won't be much of an issue.

Leaving her after 10 years is not ideal nor would I do that easily. She has had a flawless record up until this point... no transgressions.... because we were swinging regularly and everything was always above water.

She knows I like watching her have sex with other guys... and this is true, but I just don't like this situation... and she is admitting she f*$&%ed up.

However, she is agreeing to go back into swinging which is a good sign because I am a big believer in the swinging model.

We both have open minds enough to give poly a go... but finding someone for me might not be that easy..

I do know a couple women that like me enough that they would be down for it I think..but it's the initial discussion of that that feels dicey... rumors etc..
 
Not about sexual jealousy. It's about your ability to believe she will keep her Word from this point forward.

A return to swinging wouldn't solve the broken trust issues for me, but if it solves them enough for you, I guess it solves them enough for you.

I hope things turn out for you like you want them to.

I wish you well.

Galagirl
 
As a "poly sister" I would be horrified to 1) have to meet your wife's approval as ok to date you 2) know that you were only interested in dating me because you & your wife were playing some sort of tit for tat game 3) be involved in a network where there had been cheating and that cheating was still a secret being held against the injured party 4) find out that this all came about because your wife wanted you to ok her cheating relationship

OR 5) discover eventually that you kept the fact of all of this from me and started our own relationship based on hidden subterfuge and lies.

And I'll tell you - you're an awful person if you don't tell potential partners that your wife cheated, and that she continues to not only keep the cheating fact from the cafe's owner's wife, but that you are keeping it a secret as well. My sexual health would be reliant on this information, and no matter how trustworthy your wife was years ago as a swinger, there is no way in hell I would trust any of you now to be clean and safe. I can guarantee that if I decided against my better judgement to date you and to fuck you anyway, both my husbands would go to condom use with me every time, with no exceptions, do not pass go, do not collect $200. They'd think I was off my rocker.

Dude, just no. This is not polyamory. This is a fucking train wreck.
 
This situation is a huge cluster fuck...

No poly woman in her right mind, hell no sane woman with any self esteem, would touch you with a ten foot pole knowing the situation.

Do not use other people as pawns in your fucked up marriage.
 
Hmm. Suffering, abuse, manipulation, alternate exhilaration & depression, threats, grim determination, recurring lies, rationalization...

Ah, Romance. :eek:

IMO, Dagferi is being quite harsh, & thus MUCH gentler than I'd have put it.

Bella999, your relationship is a Stage 4 cancer. You seem like a nice & intelligent person, but you need to be aware that you are an active part of the disease. If you want to remain in that sludge, that's just fine with me -- it's your choice to make.

But it's unethical to seriously consider dragging others into it uninformed. Perhaps you could find a nice masochist who finds your sort of abuse to be exciting -- note that I am NOT being sarcastic. Though, come to think of it, if your SO is as you portray, I betcha that if you were to find such a girl, it'd be vetoed in an eyeblink because it sure looks like you ARE being set up to lose at every juncture.

Go ahead & make plans to institute reforms. Give it your all to at least set course toward Emotionally Healthy.

However, unless you have a Plan B for getting out, then you have no leverage whatsoever to push changes if your (ugh) "partners" decide it's too much trouble & would just cut into their trashy melodrama.
 
You can use all the kind sweet flowery language you want.. crap, dookie, bm, dookie, poo, and etc, but when I comes down to it it's all shit.

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck I am going to call it a duck... in this case this whole situation is a cluster fuck. Why not call it exactly what it is.
 
I just feel that if she wants to get back into sex involving more than just two people, swinging is a better fit for us than polyamory.

With swinging, you know how the story ends ... tonight... or until we all meet again. You can enjoy erotic variety and there is an endless # of potential partners willing to indulge.

Poly just leaves the door open to so many negative endings. I'm sure many secondaries have ended up becoming the primary and ending the primary relationship... only to find out that didn't work out either.

The secondary might find a new primary that doesn't agree with the poly thing at all and then those two in the secondary relationship have to call it quits because of the new vanilla primary in the other relationship.

I just don't see a big pool of poly people to choose from. I have lived half a decade and never once seen a poly situation last more than a couple of years at best.

If I have a poly secondary date, that is time I am not spending with my wife.
Swinging, we always did together. There is something to be said for that.

Ironically enough I found out last night that a woman I know is also poly. It came up from another conversation about her liking women.
She said....

"most of my relationships have been with women, or couples, and mostly poly in nature. I also did a lot of swinging a few years back."

She's quite into the S and M lifestlye as well, which is not really my thing, but she seems like she could be a candidate to be a secondary for me. She is very flirty for sure. Very very confident which I find attractive. She knows and likes my wife, and also knows and likes my wife's new lover.
 
Well, you're right... but you're wrong. It all depends on what you ACTUALLY want.

On the surface, swinging is a "just for this one time" situation. Maybe it's just my Minneapolis friends, though, because you can quickly become known as a "browser," a "shopper," or (worse), a "wandering wanker." The swingers I know are a quasifamilial community who also hang out together in nonsexual situations, going on picnics or shopping trips, who call on each other for assistance in day-to-day living. They attend semipublic dances & GTs, & most are regulars, crossing over with the leather groups & Naturists.

As for "negative endings," well, heck, so what??? Crap happens & adults deal with it. For instance, one of my partners has been with me in an open vee, a closed triad, an open quad, & as an fwb. She was a witness at my wedding, & a godmother to my daughter. She's my FRIEND, & hopefully will remain so.

IME, seeking after "permanence" is just monogamistic wishfulness.

If you'd rather stick to swinging, that's totally COOL with me. Not my speed, & dozens of my swinger friends can't figure out why I'd put up with the hassles of a poly relationship when I could just go out & have FUN every third Thursday or whatever... but that just ain't my speed.

Go forth, be truthful, find your wa.:)
 
Bella999 said:
I just feel that if she wants to get back into sex involving more than just two people, swinging is a better fit for us than polyamory.
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Ok, then, why bother with poly :confused:

You don't have to have a poly relationship if you don't want to. You can tell your wife you're up for swinging, or monogamy, but not poly.

She lied and broke your trust, and now you're bending over backwards to give her exactly the relationship model and rules she wants??? Why???
 
Just to respond to the statement about never seeing a poly situation last more than a couple of years (and yes, I realize that you said *in your experience*, but still)...

Woody and Stella have been together for 15 years. Woody and Franki, who lived in the area until a couple-few years ago, have been together for 22. He met both of them after he married his late wife, who passed away about 9 months ago. There were no hurt feelings, no "secondary trying to become primary", it all just worked for them. And Woody knows people who have been in poly relationships longer than that.

I don't know how common it is for a poly relationship to last a long time, but it's clearly possible.
 
I am in year 4 of my dual primary relationship. Things are wonderful. I am intertwined on the couch with Murf right now watching tv.
 
A critic of "poly longevity" can juggle terminology to suit the argument. Like, let's say X & Y are married, & happily so. They become a vee -- whoops, new relationship!! old one's dead!!

And they become a triad... later an open quad... then they close up for a year... then open again... then a triad...

Each time, a critic could say a relationship has "failed," which is why I greatly dislike the term in this context. Like, posit a couple that mutually agrees their getting married was a HUGE mistake, they part amicably, & become quite strong friends -- at what point did the relationship fail?

Except as an imported cultural artifact (Romance, lifelong commitment, etc.), why does positive, mature, forward movement need to derided in such a manner?
 
Ravenscroft said:
A critic of "poly longevity" can juggle terminology to suit the argument. Like, let's say X & Y are married, & happily so. They become a vee -- whoops, new relationship!! old one's dead!!

And they become a triad... later an open quad... then they close up for a year... then open again... then a triad...

Each time, a critic could say a relationship has "failed," which is why I greatly dislike the term in this context. Like, posit a couple that mutually agrees their getting married was a HUGE mistake, they part amicably, & become quite strong friends -- at what point did the relationship fail?

Except as an imported cultural artifact (Romance, lifelong commitment, etc.), why does positive, mature, forward movement need to derided in such a manner?
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Not derided, but it just sounds like married people who still want to date.
Dating is just that.... temporary fulfillment until the person finds something more substantial.... a committed relationship.

I don't have a lot of free time. I can't imagine dividing up my time with another or a few. I did that dating years ago. I like spending time with my wife. Other than this latest transgression, she's a gem to be around. I don't need to spend significant time with another woman, not for friendship or sex. I can't imagine dealing with the inner struggles or workings of two female souls.. one is more than enough. Most women I dated in the past were very needy and demanding of my time and attention... constantly.
If it was just a desire to fulfill the 2 woman sexual fantasy, I can do that swinging most any weekend. Been there done that a hundred times as well.

That being said, I am sure there are wonderful poly situations out there. Never seen one, but I've never seen a Himalayan snow lion either!

I've told my wife that if she insists on poly, then I will take on a secondary for sure. I think that is making her re think this a bit. She wants MFM poly only, not MFMF situation. I'm fine with casual swinging sex, but the drama of 4 people fumbling through a quad legged poly situation makes my head hurt. I don' have the skill set to navigate those waters like most here do.

I must admit, that in a perfect idealistic world, the idea of poly sounds wonderful on paper, so it must have a great dazzling effect on those who genuinely pursue it.
 
Ravenscroft said:
A critic of "poly longevity" can juggle terminology to suit the argument. Like, let's say X & Y are married, & happily so. They become a vee -- whoops, new relationship!! old one's dead!!

And they become a triad... later an open quad... then they close up for a year... then open again... then a triad...

Each time, a critic could say a relationship has "failed," which is why I greatly dislike the term in this context.
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I think this is a bit disingenuous. I think most people understand that failed, or failing to attain longevity, means the relationship actually ended, broke up.

It is an interesting question, though. My XBF and his wife have had an open marriage for 20 years now and they're still married. To them, that's a success. I, however, see a guy who's gone through dozens of girlfriends in that time, and each time one of them breaks up with him, it hurts his heart a little more. He dragged out this last break up, with me, for well over a year, causing grief and heartache for both of us (but refusing to fix the problems I had with what his wife was doing to me). He's now on to the next girlfriend.

He and his wife are still married, so I guess they consider they're a poly success. I see them as two people who have left a trail of pain behind them. His longest relationship, ever, in all that time, was 2 years and 1 month with me. They together have longevity, but they have not achieved longevity with an outside relationship in the 20 years they've been trying. And that's not because I'm playing word games, as this post implies. It's because they can't maintain outside relationships.
 
Bella999 said:
I've told my wife that if she insists on poly, then I will take on a secondary for sure. I think that is making her re think this a bit. She wants MFM poly only, not MFMF situation. I'm fine with casual swinging sex, but the drama of 4 people fumbling through a quad legged poly situation makes my head hurt. I don' have the skill set to navigate those waters like most here do.
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Just so we're clear - you don't actually want a girlfriend, you're just threatening to find one to keep your wife from pursuing a relationship with her dude???

Classy.
 
GirlFromTexlahoma said:
Just so we're clear - you don't actually want a girlfriend, you're just threatening to find one to keep your wife from pursuing a relationship with her dude???

Classy.
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As weird as this sounds, I have mixed feelings on this. Don't get me wrong, I totally get where you are coming from and definitely don't think he should get a GF (not only because he doesn't want one, but because his current relationship is a mess in ways no other person should be dragged into). That said, it's worth making the wife think about the fairness and reality of what she is asking. It's not a way I'd normally recommend doing it, since it kind of smacks of passive aggressiveness pettiness; but, I am wondering if threatening to get a girlfriend may be all that gets through her NRE right now.
 
GreenAcres said:
I am wondering if threatening to get a girlfriend may be all that gets through her NRE right now.
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Maybe...

I generally think "if you get to do poly, I do too" is a fair boundary. In fact, I also highly recommend the "I didn't get veto power over your relationship, you don't get veto power over mine" boundary!

I just think people who look at poly and think, that makes my head hurt, probably should avoid poly relationships.

And I worry he might actually go "take a secondary" (you can grab one at Secondaries R Us, I guess ;) ) and mess up her life in his attempts to get back at his wife :cool:
 
GirlFromTexlahoma said:
Maybe...

I generally think "if you get to do poly, I do too" is a fair boundary. In fact, I also highly recommend the "I didn't get veto power over your relationship, you don't get veto power over mine" boundary!

I just think people who look at poly and think, that makes my head hurt, probably should avoid poly relationships.

And I worry he might actually go "take a secondary" (you can grab one at Secondaries R Us, I guess ;) ) and mess up her life in his attempts to get back at his wife :cool:
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I agree on all of this! But, we aren't supposed to talk about Secondaries R Us on the forums. It's a poly community secret only shared with veterans, like "Hot Bi Babes R Us." If we tell everyone, they'll run out of stock. :p
 
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