A VERY BAD start!
- Thread starter Bella999
- Start date
But I don't know you.. don't see how your relationship is from day to day, nor do I know your partners or what they say about it. Like orange spotted owls in Madagascar. I believe they exist.
IndieSolo
Active member
Well, our words and stories about our lives are about all you're going to get on an online forum! But there are certain of us who have met others here, and/or know each other in real life.
If you read the Blogs & Life Stories section, you'll find many journals of people successfully involved in loving, poly arrangements.
For me, personally, longevity of a relationship is not necessarily the indicator of success. My indicators are: am I respected? Do I feel valued? Do my partners listen and hear me? Am I safe in this relationship to be myself? Those kinds of things tell me I am in a successful, healthy, loving relationship. Lasting ten years doesn't mean it was ten years of the things that matter.
If you read the Blogs & Life Stories section, you'll find many journals of people successfully involved in loving, poly arrangements.
For me, personally, longevity of a relationship is not necessarily the indicator of success. My indicators are: am I respected? Do I feel valued? Do my partners listen and hear me? Am I safe in this relationship to be myself? Those kinds of things tell me I am in a successful, healthy, loving relationship. Lasting ten years doesn't mean it was ten years of the things that matter.
Just for clarity, when a relationship ends....is it always you that is ending it?
If not, how can you feel valued if you are dumped? I suppose you could be dumped respectfully with good conversation and communication about why your former love is leaving you breaking off the love connection...
or.. I love you but...........
Are these relationships ending because love is over?
I'm not trying to be argumentative, but in my reality, I don't see any successful poly relationships. I see lots of monogamy and even swingers.
I'm sure it can work and work well, but these are like small diamonds in a quarry of rocks.
FallenAngelina
Well-known member
Well, yes, you are trying to be argumentative because in post after post, you're not really discussing anything with us, you're just tossing out random questions and repeating your stance that polyamory is impossible. That's called trolling, Bella, no matter how you couch it.
Re (from Bella999):
I don't think the chances of success are affected much (if any) by formation shape. It's more a matter of personality types and willingness to work together.
One formation with a rather bad track record is the MFF (M/F+F) triad. They tend to perform badly if they are masterminded from the beginning (a married couple, bi wife, hetero husband, set out to find a bi third to complete them), although even that is a statistical statement, not a guarantee. Once in awhile such a triad will do well.
I don't know which formation is the most probable. I do notice quite a few solo polyamorists. V's are pretty common, perhaps MFM moreso than FMF. But I'm just speaking from my own observation. Quads and N's seem to be quite a bit less common.
I've been participating on poly forums since 2008, and in spite of the tendency of people to turn to such forums when their relationships are in trouble, I've met (online) a lot of people in successful poly relationships, and leading successful poly lives. Polyamory.com has thread for that sort of thing, Poly Vignettes: Sharing Success & Happiness. It's a long thread. Perhaps you won't trust anything you find online (not in person), but my online experience has taught me to trust polyamory (as much as I trust swing and monogamy anyway). I've participated in a live local poly group before, and met a decent number of successful polyamorists there too (although that's just my experience).
None of this means that polyamory is right for everyone. Swinging is definitely better for many.
Regards,
Kevin T.
I don't think the chances of success are affected much (if any) by formation shape. It's more a matter of personality types and willingness to work together.
One formation with a rather bad track record is the MFF (M/F+F) triad. They tend to perform badly if they are masterminded from the beginning (a married couple, bi wife, hetero husband, set out to find a bi third to complete them), although even that is a statistical statement, not a guarantee. Once in awhile such a triad will do well.
I don't know which formation is the most probable. I do notice quite a few solo polyamorists. V's are pretty common, perhaps MFM moreso than FMF. But I'm just speaking from my own observation. Quads and N's seem to be quite a bit less common.
I've been participating on poly forums since 2008, and in spite of the tendency of people to turn to such forums when their relationships are in trouble, I've met (online) a lot of people in successful poly relationships, and leading successful poly lives. Polyamory.com has thread for that sort of thing, Poly Vignettes: Sharing Success & Happiness. It's a long thread. Perhaps you won't trust anything you find online (not in person), but my online experience has taught me to trust polyamory (as much as I trust swing and monogamy anyway). I've participated in a live local poly group before, and met a decent number of successful polyamorists there too (although that's just my experience).
None of this means that polyamory is right for everyone. Swinging is definitely better for many.
Regards,
Kevin T.
Ravenscroft
Banned
I was in such a triad that went bafflingly well for almost two years, until we chose to go in different directions (which had been made clear from the beginning).
But it's exactly as you say. We started as an MFF vee, then the GF moved in with us, & it was only after a strong emotional connection developed between her & me that we even considered sharing sex.
We didn't think too hard about it, until a couple we knew announced their intentions to be "just like you guys" & find themselves a girl to slot into the "bi-curious" script. We tried (gently) to dissuade them, pointing out neither had had even a roommate since college, & that they'd need to quickly develop a whole higher level of communication abilities.
It almost destroyed their relationship... & of course it was all the fault of "that damn polyamory."
Ravenscroft
Banned
The "most likely formation to have success"? The intimate network, of course! Totally amorphous, able to adapt & even thrive with change.
There's really not much for "structure" in polyamory, right? For instance, due to simple factors like neighborhood population density & household income levels, two "similar" triads can be wildly different, yet both inarguably "successful."
Consider a married couple. They're married for 40+ years. During that time, they live as an FMF triad. But the "other F" changes on a regular basis.
Did that relationship "succeed" or "fail"? If the latter, as what point?
Totally amorphous, able to adapt & even thrive with change.There's really not much for "structure" in polyamory, right? For instance, due to simple factors like neighborhood population density & household income levels, two "similar" triads can be wildly different, yet both inarguably "successful."
Consider a married couple. They're married for 40+ years. During that time, they live as an FMF triad. But the "other F" changes on a regular basis.
Did that relationship "succeed" or "fail"? If the latter, as what point?
IndieSolo
Active member
I disagree. Yes, Bella999 has strong opinions about poly, swinging, and "vanilla" folks, but I don't see trolling going on. In my estimation, Bella is asking questions out of a genuine desire to learn or understand what poly is about or how poly could possibly be so satisfying to anyone, given how skeptical he is. If you don't like how the discussion is going, then I suggest not participating.
Bella, even though it's obvious you've got a dim view of poly, and have come across as rather critical of it, you are welcome here and welcome to continue to post your questions, as long as you keep in mind that polyamory is a very important part of the lives of most people here, and are respectful of that.
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sdguitarguy
New member
Length of relationship mistaken for quality
One of my favorite stories from the Onion
Length of relationship mistaken for quality
I've run into this same attitude where poly relationships are criticized because they don't know anyone where it's been "successful" as determined by longevity.
I don't see it as a failure when my needs or my partners needs change and the existing relationship no longer meets our needs. While the transition may be difficult, I've remained friends with many woman that started out as a sexual relationship.
And the reality is that there are plenty of miserable monogamous relationships that are long lived. Just like there are a lot of divorces. But, again, I don't see divorce as a failure. It's usually good for everyone involved. The transition may be difficult but clearly things were not working out for everyone in the relationship.
One of my favorite stories from the Onion
Length of relationship mistaken for quality
I've run into this same attitude where poly relationships are criticized because they don't know anyone where it's been "successful" as determined by longevity.
I don't see it as a failure when my needs or my partners needs change and the existing relationship no longer meets our needs. While the transition may be difficult, I've remained friends with many woman that started out as a sexual relationship.
And the reality is that there are plenty of miserable monogamous relationships that are long lived. Just like there are a lot of divorces. But, again, I don't see divorce as a failure. It's usually good for everyone involved. The transition may be difficult but clearly things were not working out for everyone in the relationship.
GreenAcres
New member
Bella999, I guess the question is are *you* interested in poly, for yourself? I ask because it seems like you are not interested, and more looking to dismiss the notion that it's a feasible thing. And, for you, it might be entirely unfeasible and undesirable.
And, if it's not for you and something you don't want, that is 100% entirely, totally okay! Not everyone wants poly, enjoys poly, is interested in poly, or works well in poly relationships. They're no better or worse than monogamy, just different.
It's felt, and this is just my perception over the vastness of the interwebs, that you're hoping for a magic bullet--something to be able to hold up as foolproof that a poly relationship isn't doable for you, your wife, and the affair partner, that is based on poly itself rather than on the current situation you are all in. You won't likely find it. Your wife is convinced that is what she wants and it seems you face an argument with her about it at every turn. As though, unless you can prove it isn't feasible, then your feelings about it are somehow invalid, and therefore the default is to go poly.
But, here's the thing: That's just not true. You get a choice. You don't need some kind of statistical proof that poly does't work, or doesn't work in situations like yours. Because, just like with the rest of life, statistics don't matter for individual cases. Cancer patients have a certain likelihood of success of treatment, but, in the end, all that really matters in their lives is if that treatment works *for them*. It working for everyone else and not them clearly doesn't mean it's right for them. This is the exact same thing.
If you don't want poly, then just don't. You don't need a reason, other than it's not a relationship style you want to be in. Yes, there are possible consequences to this, as there are to everything; but, your wife doesn't get to set the default in your relationship just because you can't provide some kind of scientific proof that the model you don't want is also a failure X% if the time. And, honestly, even if you had that kind of thing, she could just argue it the other way: Oh, but it does succeed Y% of the time, and I deserve to see if we're in that percentage. (FYI, look up gaslighting, which is kind of what some of your situation sounds like sometimes).
Sometimes, as shitty as it is, all of our choice are bad, and we just have to pick the least craptastic one. I sense you are feeling like you are in such a place, and I am so sorry to see you struggle. My honest suggestion is to stop seeking proof of concept. It doesn't really exist (and the research on poly itself is, all around, generally bad even in more scientific circles). Take some time to center yourself, and focus on what *YOU* need in a relationship. No tit-for-tat, no fact proving...just, what do you want and need to be happy? And, work from there. It may not be what your wife wants, and it may be that you and she split. But, what is going on now is pretty clearly having some serious impact on you (and, I assume, her), and something has to give.
Good luck to you both.
And, if it's not for you and something you don't want, that is 100% entirely, totally okay! Not everyone wants poly, enjoys poly, is interested in poly, or works well in poly relationships. They're no better or worse than monogamy, just different.
It's felt, and this is just my perception over the vastness of the interwebs, that you're hoping for a magic bullet--something to be able to hold up as foolproof that a poly relationship isn't doable for you, your wife, and the affair partner, that is based on poly itself rather than on the current situation you are all in. You won't likely find it. Your wife is convinced that is what she wants and it seems you face an argument with her about it at every turn. As though, unless you can prove it isn't feasible, then your feelings about it are somehow invalid, and therefore the default is to go poly.
But, here's the thing: That's just not true. You get a choice. You don't need some kind of statistical proof that poly does't work, or doesn't work in situations like yours. Because, just like with the rest of life, statistics don't matter for individual cases. Cancer patients have a certain likelihood of success of treatment, but, in the end, all that really matters in their lives is if that treatment works *for them*. It working for everyone else and not them clearly doesn't mean it's right for them. This is the exact same thing.
If you don't want poly, then just don't. You don't need a reason, other than it's not a relationship style you want to be in. Yes, there are possible consequences to this, as there are to everything; but, your wife doesn't get to set the default in your relationship just because you can't provide some kind of scientific proof that the model you don't want is also a failure X% if the time. And, honestly, even if you had that kind of thing, she could just argue it the other way: Oh, but it does succeed Y% of the time, and I deserve to see if we're in that percentage. (FYI, look up gaslighting, which is kind of what some of your situation sounds like sometimes).
Sometimes, as shitty as it is, all of our choice are bad, and we just have to pick the least craptastic one. I sense you are feeling like you are in such a place, and I am so sorry to see you struggle. My honest suggestion is to stop seeking proof of concept. It doesn't really exist (and the research on poly itself is, all around, generally bad even in more scientific circles). Take some time to center yourself, and focus on what *YOU* need in a relationship. No tit-for-tat, no fact proving...just, what do you want and need to be happy? And, work from there. It may not be what your wife wants, and it may be that you and she split. But, what is going on now is pretty clearly having some serious impact on you (and, I assume, her), and something has to give.
Good luck to you both.
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GreenAcres
New member
Well, for starters, I've rarely looked at it as giving or getting "dumped." I am still really good friends with many of my former lovers/relationships. Our lives just didn't end up going in the same direction, and that's okay. I've dated exactly two people in my life who ended up being horrific mistakes (they were both masterful manipulators, it turned out, and they both ended incredibly painfully for me, though I am the one who ended them--with debt and lots of STD tests; and, it was zero consolation to learn it ended the same way for every other person they'd ever dated, and that none of their friends had any idea about their other exploits. Talk about scary. Anyway, I digress... These BOTH were monogamous--well, as far as I knew, which was obviously a lie--relationships. They wouldn't do poly, and I am fairly flexible, so I was okay with it. Meaning, monogamy isn't assurance of not getting hurt, and getting dumped isn't the only way to get hurt very, very badly) The rest of my lovers aall contributed something to my life (many still do), and I (hopefully) to their's.
Endings in relationships built on trust and open communication do not have to end with a "dumping." For me, it's almost always been mutual, and also generally for some fairly finite reason (moving due to work, or the relationship configuration wasn't going to be able to happen as one of us would like for various reasons, or we ended up not working well together dating but did great as friends, etc. I had a triad a couple of triads end badly, but not because of our relationship, it was literally always because the female of the other couple got controlling, jealous, and crazy. So, I stopped dating couples. Lesson learned (and I am still friends with either on or both members of those couples).
Of course there are shorter interactions that probably have ended for reasons that were less...cordial? There've been people I have discovered I am not attracted to after a few dates, and vice-versa. Or, that they have lifestyle issues I am uncomfortable with (heavy drugs, etc.). Or, want a configuration I am uncomfortable with. Those conversations are harder, but no more so that when I have people interested in being my friend, or with whom I want to be friends, and the other party not so much.
Mostly, you can't take everything personally, and have to realize that everyone has different needs and wants. Only a small percentage of people will have needs and wants that also match up with their attractions. It's not personal, it's just math.
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This. So much this.
I feel like I do have some openness to Poly, but I would need it to feel equal, or generally speaking. My wife is in love I suppose, and for me to fall in love with another (female) I would have to.... first.... spend a lot of time with her to allow love to happen. The Poly situation is not a topic that would come up on a first date I don't think.
Would I start sleeping with someone then bring up the poly? I would think that a new lover would be more open to such a situation if we were already feeling that kind of closeness or intimacy. I can only imagine how awkward it would be to tell a date, I'm looking for a Poly relationship.. are you interested?
Now if I were dating within a Poly minded group or website where the members are all in a sense "pre qualified".... that would seem better.
I know there are plenty of swinger's sites, but are there quality Poly dating sites? From my understanding, the single female is what is generally in demand. A married guy looking for an extra partner seems like the least likely situation to find success.
My point being that I really feel way out in right field. Wife is in love, I am a long way from being on any kind of equal ground.
Would I start sleeping with someone then bring up the poly? I would think that a new lover would be more open to such a situation if we were already feeling that kind of closeness or intimacy. I can only imagine how awkward it would be to tell a date, I'm looking for a Poly relationship.. are you interested?
Now if I were dating within a Poly minded group or website where the members are all in a sense "pre qualified".... that would seem better.
I know there are plenty of swinger's sites, but are there quality Poly dating sites? From my understanding, the single female is what is generally in demand. A married guy looking for an extra partner seems like the least likely situation to find success.
My point being that I really feel way out in right field. Wife is in love, I am a long way from being on any kind of equal ground.
IndieSolo
Active member
Why do you feel you have to be in love with someone else just because she is? "Equal ground" can simply mean that you are open to poly - your swinging mindset about making sure everyone "gets" the same thing will trip you up in polyamory. You're only going to create problems and difficulties if you chase after someone just to hurry up and be in love with them because your wife is in love with someone. That would be fake. Love doesn't work that way. As I said upthread, I would never want to be pursued as a prize in a race. I want to be pursued because I'm awesome and attractive to someone, period.
As for bringing up poly on a first date, why not? I personally don't use the word polyamory on a first date because there are too many misunderstandings about it (a lot of people think poly is swinging, and I want them to make sure they know that I do not swing, but in your case, that might be an advantage). I just say "I'm not looking for exclusivity," but sometimes it just happens that we don't discuss "what we're looking for" until the third date or the morning after. However, in your case, you would definitely have to tell a date you're married, or it would be rather unfair and dishonest, so yes, it would serve everyone well for you to bring it up right away.
As for bringing up poly on a first date, why not? I personally don't use the word polyamory on a first date because there are too many misunderstandings about it (a lot of people think poly is swinging, and I want them to make sure they know that I do not swing, but in your case, that might be an advantage). I just say "I'm not looking for exclusivity," but sometimes it just happens that we don't discuss "what we're looking for" until the third date or the morning after. However, in your case, you would definitely have to tell a date you're married, or it would be rather unfair and dishonest, so yes, it would serve everyone well for you to bring it up right away.
WhatHappened
Active member
Wise words. I have found, in reading a number of forums and blogs around the web, that sometimes what we hear from one part of the V is diametrically opposed to what we hear from another part of the V. I have read extensive writings by several people involved in poly Vs talking about how long they have been with both spouse and partner, and how successful it is--only to discover later that several of those years were actually cheating behind the spouse's back, and from there on out, a spouse trying to hold it together for the sake of the kids, or actively looking for ways out.
XBF told me he knows lots of happy poly families, but when pressed for details, 'lots' was 2 others--and one of them was having a lot of trouble. He would never introduce me to them, so who knows the truth.
So, just as a long marriage doesn't necessary mean a successful marriage (I'm in agreement on that, I've seen plenty of that, too), a long lasting V doesn't mean successful poly.
The point was made earlier in the thread that a couple is still together, so they're a successful poly couple. They may be a successful couple, but the point remains, the lovers come and go. There are not twenty-year Vs.
My XBF has not managed more than an 18-month relationship in 20 years of trying--except, ironically with me, the newb to poly. Yes, he and his wife are nearing 30 years of marriage, so they consider themselves a success. I see them not as a success, but as more the emotional equivalent of Micky and Mallory Knox in Natural Born Killers, dancing through life having a blast and leaving a trail of pain in their wake when people (probably more the women he dates) realize they're just toys in the games these two play.
Be clear: I am NOT saying that every poly couple treats people like this. But let's face it, we see it often enough, right here on this board. I'm glad I spent so much time reading on this board, in fact, because I had no qualms about telling him no poly woman would accept his wife's behavior, either.
And Bella, this is why it's not a good idea to look for a girlfriend to balance things. She becomes a piece of furniture, a new distraction. At the same time, I absolutely understand why you have a problem sitting home looking for a hobby while your wife is out with another man, especially one she was cheating with, if I remember the whole story right.
I don't see it as using someone, it's just going to be some dating. Love happens or it doesn't. That can't be forced. But I do think it is important for my wife to understand the reality of the situation. For us both to.
She is not going to be having sex with him unless I start having sex with someone. That is simply what we have agreed upon at this point. Seems fair enough to me, and her respecting that boundary is a good step in repairing the damage that has been done.
It's dangerous stuff in my opinion, and for many reasons. All one has to do is look at some of these other threads. They are loaded with issues and drama that I would not be all that excited to explore!
She is not going to be having sex with him unless I start having sex with someone. That is simply what we have agreed upon at this point. Seems fair enough to me, and her respecting that boundary is a good step in repairing the damage that has been done.
It's dangerous stuff in my opinion, and for many reasons. All one has to do is look at some of these other threads. They are loaded with issues and drama that I would not be all that excited to explore!