FallenAngelina
Well-known member
Neil, can you please clarify what you mean here? It sounded as though you're looking for four people who are all sexually and emotionally involved with one another, preferably living together.
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Advice needed on how to proceed please!
- Thread starter NeilMK
- Start date
Neil, can you please clarify what you mean here? It sounded as though you're looking for four people who are all sexually and emotionally involved with one another, preferably living together.
Interesting as I just posted on a new thread on this forum from a lady who's in a closed triad, exactly the same as I've been seeking. Dagferi, there is a huge difference between using your experience to provide advice and support to saying 'it doesn't work for me so won't work for you'. Some of the responders to this thread have made that assumption. You yourself have just done it; 'I have all this experience ... but what you want is plausible but not feasible'. This is a personal bias based on your own (in) experience. As I noted, there's an OP on here in a totally successful closed triad.
I'm also a little saddened that despite my lack of poly experience my own opinion and intelligence, my own experience in relationships seems to stand for diddly? I was married for 10 years, (4 kids), had a 7 year relationship after that where she had two of her own children that I raised. I was a male escort for 18 months and have had approximately 40 sexual partners (not counting the escorting customers). I often find people who are so used to something can become very narrow minded and it feels like several reactions here are purely because someone new is 'walzing in and messing with the sanctitiy of your clique'.
Hi FA,
In the short time I've been on this forum it has become abundantly clear that many of your members are very fixed in their view of what poly is. Their desire to put me in a box for clarification is understandable but not useful.
While it's accurate that I seek 'a polyamorous closed quad' which is useful to know, I've received a great deal of attack because others don't agree or think it's hard or impossible to find. Read the thread?! Why the hostility?! One poster saying I should consider having more kids to widen my search pool? That's one hell of a judgement to pose on someone else's life?!
While I understand the words of a few don't represent the entire community, I don't want to be part of the poly community if it represents close minded and destructive 'support'. I'm happy not to sit in a box, to seek whatever the f**k I'd like to seek and see if it work, no matter what PC boundaries or gender boxes the community has created for itself.
I'm angry, and that's not easily done.
17642990gk294
Member
Dear Neil,
I've been a silent watcher to this but I feel like you are starting to behave disrespectful. You asked for advise and have been given a lot of well-meaning and carefull phrased replies.
Everyone wants to help you, but you need to understand that what you seek is extremely (to me borderline delusionally) unrelaistic.
Each of these steps has a bazillion pitfalls.
Why would a mono partner (of any sexulaity) want to form another relationship? All I can imagine is you saying, she will need a woman too - and most bi people I know (including myself) would struggele with or be offended by you proposing that they cannot be satisfied with one partner of one gender. Can you explain why a monogamous person should enter a realtionship with you knowing that you are planing on beeing very non-monogamous?
Next point: What happens if your mono-bi-girlfriend falls in love with one of the people you date but you don't? Do you veto her away? Will that not create tension? Or what if your girlfriends girlfriend turns out lesbian and doesn't want any sex with you or any other man for that reason? What if you really like this one girl but she's just not that much into your partner?
What if the girls find a man, who enjoys sleeping with both of them (even at the same time) but refuses to sleep with you? Or if you find a man who sleeps with all of you but who spends more 1on1 time with girlfriend1 than girlfriend2? If she minds, is he forced to remedy that?
Noone here claims you are 'walzing in and messing with the sanctitiy of your clique'. You have highly unrealistic expectations based on very limited experience (and you don't seem to want to gain any perspective by following the advise of people who offer some).
If I entered a woodworking class and asked on advise on how to make a life-size copy of the sicilian chapel using only a teaspoon, I would be met with some critical advise (which I hope I would take).
Please, just consider for a moment that you might end up hurting yourself, your partners and their partners.
I've been a silent watcher to this but I feel like you are starting to behave disrespectful. You asked for advise and have been given a lot of well-meaning and carefull phrased replies.
Everyone wants to help you, but you need to understand that what you seek is extremely (to me borderline delusionally) unrelaistic.
Each of these steps has a bazillion pitfalls.
Why would a mono partner (of any sexulaity) want to form another relationship? All I can imagine is you saying, she will need a woman too - and most bi people I know (including myself) would struggele with or be offended by you proposing that they cannot be satisfied with one partner of one gender. Can you explain why a monogamous person should enter a realtionship with you knowing that you are planing on beeing very non-monogamous?
Next point: What happens if your mono-bi-girlfriend falls in love with one of the people you date but you don't? Do you veto her away? Will that not create tension? Or what if your girlfriends girlfriend turns out lesbian and doesn't want any sex with you or any other man for that reason? What if you really like this one girl but she's just not that much into your partner?
What if the girls find a man, who enjoys sleeping with both of them (even at the same time) but refuses to sleep with you? Or if you find a man who sleeps with all of you but who spends more 1on1 time with girlfriend1 than girlfriend2? If she minds, is he forced to remedy that?
Noone here claims you are 'walzing in and messing with the sanctitiy of your clique'. You have highly unrealistic expectations based on very limited experience (and you don't seem to want to gain any perspective by following the advise of people who offer some).
If I entered a woodworking class and asked on advise on how to make a life-size copy of the sicilian chapel using only a teaspoon, I would be met with some critical advise (which I hope I would take).
Please, just consider for a moment that you might end up hurting yourself, your partners and their partners.
Hi Kinda,
I apologise for being disrespectful and agree. I'll reign it in, however I'm being quite clearly attacked by several members so feel justified in defending myself, however I should use more grown up words. Thank you for the slap.
Here's a thread from a new member that is in a closed triad, successfully.
It IS achievable. http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=137524
Remember monogomy can be used in a closed triad or quad? Mono doesn't mean one partner in this case although by your terms I should have used the word 'closed' I think.
Rather than look at the 'girl', I'll look at myself. I would like a girlfriend and a boyfriend. They give totally different things, so that's why I would want more than one partner, that part is no different to a normal poly preference? Am I misunderstanding your point?
Now THAT is a great insight! I can see if I find a bi girl and we try a new girl or guy and she falls head over heels for him and I don't that it would be a bump in my plan. I hadn't thought of it that way. Super interesting! The great thing about this journey for me is that it's totally unmapped. I love responding to events as they happen. If, as part of that adventure that were to happen, I'd love to discuss it with the parties involved and see where we all sit. It might mean I break up with the girl, it might mean she forms a new V outside of the tri/quad, who knows! But it will be great fun exploring. As adults we have the ability to change, explore, reflect and consider the path we're on at any stage. I'm not afraid of change.
That comment is 'exactly' the type of advice I need for my journey and knowledge, thanks again!
In this scenario it wouldn't work. Why would I partner with someone who doesn't want to sleep with me? We would be looking for partners as a team. It's not about any one person.
The main thing people are reporting is that it's unachievable. My other post links to evidence it isn't. Advice I like and welcome. Constructive critism I like and welcome. People telling me I'm a Unicorn Hunter, that I have no sexual or relationship experience, that what I want is impossible because they've never found it or think it's a betrayal of Poly 'rules' is not welcome.
Is that fair?
FallenAngelina
Well-known member
Monogamy does mean one partner. The term you're describing is poly-fidelity and it's quite common. Polyamory doesn't mean open to all new partners at all times, it simply means multiple. Whether a dyad or a group is open to new partners is a preference within polyamory and up to the partners involved. Many poly people are poly-fidelitous and many poly people are open to new partners. It's a preference.
I know that it can feel overwhelming when so many experienced people shed doubtful light on your dreams, but the member you question was actually trying to offer advice. She didn't say that you should be willing to have more kids, she said that if she were looking for your desired situation, she'd be OK with partners who wanted their own children with other partners. Her point was that finding four romantically and sexually compatible long term partners would be challenging enough and that adding a no pregnancy clause would shrink the pool to almost nothing. She wasn't telling you to father more children.
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Thanks Karen
. It is daunting but I'll soldier on! Appreciate the terminology update.SEASONEDpolyAgain
Well-known member
That post you linked is a great example actually. It is obviously going well for them. But, already, the OP has said it is going slower than she expected/desires and that they haven't crossed arguably the biggest hurdle which is integrating their triad into their family life. They are closeted. That doesn't invalidate their "poly badge" by any means, but it does mean that it is relatively early days.
The other part is that we only have the word of one of the people involved. And, the word of someone who is arguably holding the most power along with their spouse. The girlfriend involved might have something different to say.
We also don't know how sex works between the 3 of them and if that is mutually satisfactory for everyone.
The other part is that we only have the word of one of the people involved. And, the word of someone who is arguably holding the most power along with their spouse. The girlfriend involved might have something different to say.
We also don't know how sex works between the 3 of them and if that is mutually satisfactory for everyone.
So you do have some flexibility into your order of events then, because initially you wanted one girl, then another, then a guy to finally join in. I think this is partly what people were saying was a flaw in your grand plan, trying to script ahead of time how all this would unfold. So instead, you've started chatting to already established couples with yourself as third.
I'll be watching along to see how that works out for you...
vinsanity0
Active member
Remember monogomy can be used in a closed triad or quad? Mono doesn't mean one partner in this case although by your terms I should have used the word 'closed' I think.
Rather than look at the 'girl', I'll look at myself. I would like a girlfriend and a boyfriend. They give totally different things, so that's why I would want more than one partner, that part is no different to a normal poly preference? Am I misunderstanding your point?
Now THAT is a great insight! I can see if I find a bi girl and we try a new girl or guy and she falls head over heels for him and I don't that it would be a bump in my plan. I hadn't thought of it that way. Super interesting! The great thing about this journey for me is that it's totally unmapped. I love responding to events as they happen. If, as part of that adventure that were to happen, I'd love to discuss it with the parties involved and see where we all sit. It might mean I break up with the girl, it might mean she forms a new V outside of the tri/quad, who knows! But it will be great fun exploring. As adults we have the ability to change, explore, reflect and consider the path we're on at any stage. I'm not afraid of change.
That comment is 'exactly' the type of advice I need for my journey and knowledge, thanks again!
In this scenario it wouldn't work. Why would I partner with someone who doesn't want to sleep with me? We would be looking for partners as a team. It's not about any one person.
The main thing people are reporting is that it's unachievable. My other post links to evidence it isn't. Advice I like and welcome. Constructive critism I like and welcome. People telling me I'm a Unicorn Hunter, that I have no sexual or relationship experience, that what I want is impossible because they've never found it or think it's a betrayal of Poly 'rules' is not welcome.
Is that fair?
I'm glad someone got through to you...lol. You were so busy being defensive that you failed to mention you are more flexible than you let on.
You found one thread that claims a successful triad. If I looked I could find at least ten that didn't work out.
I'm not sure why you think you were disrespected and crucified. People are just telling you things you should be aware of.
No, Seasonedpoly and I are not the same person. The confusion came from trying to quote both of us at the same time. Both our posts were in the same color in your format.
It's interesting you thanked Kindalost for offering a scenario that was laid out explicitly in the Unicorn Hunter article, which you had previously dismissed.
That's the main point of all this advice. Getting 2 people to agree to "share" one person, where you all love and desire each other equally, is hard enough. Achieving that with 4 people, 2 Fs, 2 Ms, is exponentially harder.
The triad you're talking about in a new member's post-- I will go check it out. But I've been practicing polyamory recently for 12 years, about as long as I've been a member here(and I practiced it in my teens before marriage as well), and learning from hundreds of peoples' experiences, I've seen tragic triads more often than not. For the reasons many people have stated.
Some people come here with grandiose fantasies and dreams and feel like we're "yucking their yum," as you do. Others are extremely grateful for our information and advice, book and article and podcast recommendations, etc.
I dated this guy for a short time. He was a Dominant, and at the time we met, he had a long term sub gf and a sketchy seeming new sub gf. He had an ex wife and was sharing custody of their 2 sons. He wanted not just 4 lovers in his future, but 12 (as I recall). A bunch of submissive women, and one other man he'd train to be his assistant Dom. Everyone would have a job and a purpose in this community he'd head. He was cute, fun, intelligent, well endowed, fascinating, great in bed, full of life and sexy as hell, and probably crazy.
After our 3 dates he'd moved into a 3 floor building with his long term gf and dumped the sketchy one. The first floor was occupied by a roommate they barely knew, but shared kitchen and living room space with.
His ex wife had fallen on hard times and moved in. He'd gotten more custody of his sons and they were there too (about ages 6 and 14). He'd pulled them out of school and he'd also taken a break from work to homeschool them and to work on his life plan. His gf and his ex were bringing in some money. But I knew the gf resented it. I met her on 2 of my 3 dates with this guy, since she was supposed to be able to vet his new women. (We had one 3some and it went great. They knew how to do that, at least.)
But now, given this real life scenario, he told me his life was "chaos," and he wasn't able to keep seeing me. He was so broke he'd run to his mother's house for a sandwich while his gf and ex wife were at work.
Fantasies are fun.
There is a website called Practical Polyamory that's very helpful.
It's interesting you thanked Kindalost for offering a scenario that was laid out explicitly in the Unicorn Hunter article, which you had previously dismissed.
Kindalosthere said:
Neil said:
That's the main point of all this advice. Getting 2 people to agree to "share" one person, where you all love and desire each other equally, is hard enough. Achieving that with 4 people, 2 Fs, 2 Ms, is exponentially harder.
The triad you're talking about in a new member's post-- I will go check it out. But I've been practicing polyamory recently for 12 years, about as long as I've been a member here(and I practiced it in my teens before marriage as well), and learning from hundreds of peoples' experiences, I've seen tragic triads more often than not. For the reasons many people have stated.
Some people come here with grandiose fantasies and dreams and feel like we're "yucking their yum," as you do. Others are extremely grateful for our information and advice, book and article and podcast recommendations, etc.
I dated this guy for a short time. He was a Dominant, and at the time we met, he had a long term sub gf and a sketchy seeming new sub gf. He had an ex wife and was sharing custody of their 2 sons. He wanted not just 4 lovers in his future, but 12 (as I recall). A bunch of submissive women, and one other man he'd train to be his assistant Dom. Everyone would have a job and a purpose in this community he'd head. He was cute, fun, intelligent, well endowed, fascinating, great in bed, full of life and sexy as hell, and probably crazy.
After our 3 dates he'd moved into a 3 floor building with his long term gf and dumped the sketchy one. The first floor was occupied by a roommate they barely knew, but shared kitchen and living room space with.
His ex wife had fallen on hard times and moved in. He'd gotten more custody of his sons and they were there too (about ages 6 and 14). He'd pulled them out of school and he'd also taken a break from work to homeschool them and to work on his life plan. His gf and his ex were bringing in some money. But I knew the gf resented it. I met her on 2 of my 3 dates with this guy, since she was supposed to be able to vet his new women. (We had one 3some and it went great. They knew how to do that, at least.)
But now, given this real life scenario, he told me his life was "chaos," and he wasn't able to keep seeing me. He was so broke he'd run to his mother's house for a sandwich while his gf and ex wife were at work.
Fantasies are fun.
There is a website called Practical Polyamory that's very helpful.
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I don't think I ever meant it to sound scripted, but have used that as an example of how I saw it unfolding. It's only my objective that I have a vision of but let's face it, life twists and turns and who knows where I'll end up? That's part of the adventure!
I'm glad to read this.
As Evie said, no one meant any disrespect, nor were we a lynch mob. We just thought your idea was a sweet fantasy that was highly unlikely to come about.
The woman in the triad said it's taken her and her husband 6 years to get even partway to her goal of a live-in triad. She's in her 50s and still wants to wait years to move the unicorn into their home (because of children).
It sounds like they've spoken to dozens, if not a hundred women, but only met 2 in all that time! That's some persistence right there. She said her hunt has taken compromises and has caused... feelings... (she hasn't specified what those are yet).
I understand your kids don't live with you, for some reason, even part time? You have no more part in raising them? The younger ones are hardly "grown," one 17 year old and 2 15 year olds.
So your marriage lasted 10 years, your next relationship lasted 7. And you were an escort and have had 40 (casual?) sex partners besides the sex work.
At first I thought you were 18-27 years old, and had read too much Heinlein, but you're in your 40s. You might be part way to your dream in 6 years, if it goes for you like it did for the woman in the triad. Probably longer, since you want a quad, and no kids.