Advice on a Metamour and how to deal with my feelings

[Prettyinpink]

Sorry this is so long. I started to write it just to get some questions answered but it turned into a bit of verbal diarrhea as I have no one else, who is poly, to talk about these things with.

I need some advice on how to communicate with my partners girlfriend. He has been going out with her for 4 months and on three occasions (in front of me), and two other occasions (that I heard about but never saw), she has become verbally abusive and had angry outburst while drinking. She apologized to me for two of these occasions. After the last apology she asked me if I wanted to hang out. I sent her a message pointing out that she becomes angry when drinking and told her that I am feeling uncomfortable around it. I also said I don't know where to go from her. She is said that she wants to show me that these outbursts are unusual to her. I am having trouble believing her as it seems to occur more often then not. I am going to hang out with her again but I don't know what to do if this happens again. Does anyone have any advice? Also how do you know if this is the normal pattern for someone or just some one off incidences?

I also want to know how to heal the damage that has been done. I feel like my back is up. It is not just the drinking but I am also bothered by these passive aggressive, sarcastic comments that she makes when she is not drinking. At first I thought they were just her way of joking but I began to notice that she is using these comments as a form of communicating her negative feelings. She mostly does this to our partner but he has some social deficients and does not have the ability to see things like this. So he is not bothered by these comments. It is more my problem and I don’t even know if it is my place to say anything. Its like watching some bully pick on someone and the person does not understand he is being picked on. Should I say something to her the next time she makes these comments? If so what should I say? If not how to I come to terms with this?

Perhaps that hardest thing for me is that I can not read her at all. The fact that she does not seem to communicate her feelings makes getting to know her better even harder. Also her actions normally don't aline with her words. Not knowing her is very confusing to me and so I am finding it hard to navigate this situation. Has anyone else had a metamour or someone else in their life like this? If so how did you deal with it? How do you built a relationship with someone when you are not getting any feedback? What do you do when a person says one thing but their actions say another? How can you trust someone when their words and actions don’t align?

I am torn because part of me thinks that if I get to know her I will see that she is the nice person that my partner thinks she is (she does usually seems quite sweet). The other side of me feels off when I am around her (this side of me thinks she is not a very nice person) and I think it might be because of a combination of things I have heard her say and some of her actions. I need some advice on how to deal with these two conflicting feelings.

Thanks

 

[Inyourendo]

I would probably only agree to be around her if there isn't drinking going on. I'm inclined to think that because it's happened multiple times in the very short time they've been together that this is probably normal behavior for her when she's drunk. As far as getting past the trauma only time and consistency of showing she can control her behavior will help that.

 

[TheAviator]

As far as the alcohol is concerned, you may want to address that first. I had a friend who was an angry drinker, and I always had low self-esteem after hanging out with him. If I had been in a relationship with him, I wouldn't have put up with it. Furthermore, if alcohol brings out the worst in someone, that person probably should not be drinking. Perhaps try having activities where no alcohol is available. That way, the issue doesn't arise.

As far as the negative comments are concerned, you may want to assess the situation outright. Going off of what you've said, this situation seems to hint at emotional abuse. If that's the case, you nor your partner should have to put up with that. Unless you can address the abuse outright and find some way for her to realize the consequences of her actions and to empathize with your feelings, the emotional abuse will not stop. It will get worse.

As part of the relationship, you have a say in how one of your partners is treated by the other, especially if you see harm. If you see him being picked on, it's good to show him support. I won't recommend any particular course of action because I don't want to put you or your partners at further risk. If there is a family friend or relative that you can turn to, I would suggest this first. Additionally, you may want to seek out a hotline for abuse (yes, emotional abuse is still abuse) to speak to a trained professional. If anything, a help line may be able to assist you in assessing the situation and coming up with an appropriate and safe response.

I wish you the best, and I hope you can find the resolution you need! You and your both your partners deserve to be healthy, physically and mentally.

EDIT: You beat me to it, Inyourendo.

 

[vinsanity0]

But is it abuse if the "abused" doesn't feel abused? If he is fine with what she says, then I don't see a problem there.

Is it really a requirement that you and her be friends? Personally, I wouldn't hang out with someone whose presence makes me uncomfortable.

 

[Prettyinpink]

Thank you everyone for your replies. They have really been helpful. I have talked to her and she has agreed to limit her drinks when we hang out. I think that she may have a drinking problem she is not willing to address so this is a good first step. I have also talked to my partner about this problem. I came to the conclusion that if she becomes abusive again I can no longer allow her into my home or my vehicle. I know this may sound childish but I don't want that energy in my house. I also don't want to know that I am working hard to pay for insurance and gas to drive around someone who keeps disrespecting my boundaries. I will also limit my interactions with her whenever possible. Is this too harsh of a reaction?

There is not a requirement to be friends but she is in my social circle so she attends a lot of events that I go to.

I have also asked my self the question "Is it abuse if the one being abused does not feel like it is abuse?" I am a sadomasochist so I believe that if there is consent and it's not doing harm to the other person then it is not abuse. However my struggle is that if my partner actually understood the meaning behind what she was saying he would be very upset. That is what bothers me the most. I guess my example in my original post was not accurate. It's more like someone saying abusive things to your partner in german and your partner does not understand german but you do.

 

[TheAviator]

Well, I would still ask a professional just so you can explore your options for a response. I'm not going to pretend that abuse takes the same form in every case (I also agree that there is consenting sadomasochism, which is different). And yes, abuse can be abuse without someone recognizing it as abuse, which often happens when instances of abuse are perceived as abnormal or inconsistent with a person's behavior; it can also be abuse when someone doesn't realize or even denies that she or he is being harmed. It seems the point of disagreement is that what he doesn't know won't hurt him--but does he really, truly not understand? I don't think I have enough information either way. "Harm without that person's consent" might be the extremely simplified and admittedly imperfect definition for abuse here.

Additionally, if your partner has a thick skin and can take insults or ignore them, then he might be okay. I tend to still think it's unhealthy, but I will check my normative ideas at the door. On the other hand, that could be one aspect of their relationship that just doesn't translate to the type of relationship you have with him.

On the subject of whether to tell him the meaning of what she says, you may want to ask whether it is your interpretation that is the issue. If you read a situation in a particular way because of strong feelings, that may color the ways that you hear her speak. It's possible to read condescension and loathing into someone's words and actions simply because you want to confirm how you already feel. This is not an attempt to displace blame onto you; your feelings about her are just a few of many other factors you may want to consider.

On the other hand, I don't think you should keep your feelings to yourself. You should respectfully and firmly let both of them know how you feel so that you can come to an understanding or a resolution. Interpersonal issues don't mend themselves, and simply hoping that something you feel uncomfortable about will stop usually doesn't work.

Again, best wishes for you, your partner and his metamour!

 

[Inyourendo]

But is it abuse if the "abused" doesn't feel abused? If he is fine with what she says, then I don't see a problem there.

Is it really a requirement that you and her be friends? Personally, I wouldn't hang out with someone whose presence makes me uncomfortable.

I would feel abused just witnessing that, even if it was directed at me. I grew up in an alcoholic family with lots of fighting going on so I'm especially sensitive to thatv

 

[GalaGirl]

I came to the conclusion that if she becomes abusive again I can no longer allow her into my home or my vehicle. I know this may sound childish but I don't want that energy in my house. I also don't want to know that I am working hard to pay for insurance and gas to drive around someone who keeps disrespecting my boundaries. I will also limit my interactions with her whenever possible. Is this too harsh of a reaction?

That's not childish reaction. That an adult response that's been thought out. It is setting a boundary for what you will/will not put up with. That is necessary to do sometimes.

She mostly does this to our partner but he has some social deficients and does not have the ability to see things like this. So he is not bothered by these comments. It is more my problem and I don’t even know if it is my place to say anything. Its like watching some bully pick on someone and the person does not understand he is being picked on. Should I say something to her the next time she makes these comments? If so what should I say? If not how to I come to terms with this?

I think you could set boundaries there too. Just like the car.

"It bothers me when you say ____ to our shared partner. Don't say it -- I find it abusive."

Even if partner is ok with receiving this treatment, you are not. So they can save that kind of dynamic for when they are alone together and NOT around you as social events.

It's more like someone saying abusive things to your partner in german and your partner does not understand german but you do.

Well, if it WERE German and you speak it? You could say "Stop. That's not fair. One, he doesn't speak German. Two, it's not kind to be doing in any language -- calling him ______. Please stop doing that around me. I find it verbally abusive/mean. In fact, please stop doing it at all to anyone."

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Prettyinpink,

Re (from Prettyinpink):

"I am going to hang out with her again but I don't know what to do if this happens again."

If it was me, I don't think I'd give her any more chances beyond that. There's nothing you're supposed to do when she's spewing out verbal abuse. Other than to walk away.

Re:

"It is not just the drinking but I am also bothered by these passive aggressive, sarcastic comments that she makes when she is not drinking."

Well I wouldn't give her any more chances at that either. Regardless of whether she's drinking, you're not obliged to take her abuse.

Re:

"It is more my problem and I don't even know if it is my place to say anything."

No need to say anything, just stop exposing yourself to the metamour's company.

Re:

"It's like watching some bully pick on someone and the person does not understand he is being picked on."

It is what it is. If it doesn't bother him, don't let it bother you.

Re (from Prettyinpink):

"I came to the conclusion that if she becomes abusive again I can no longer allow her into my home or my vehicle ... I will also limit my interactions with her whenever possible. Is this too harsh of a reaction?"

No, I think it is perfectly appropriate under the circumstances.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[LizziE]

I talk a lot about problems like this on my blog here, as well as my other blog (https://learningmanyloves.wordpress.com). I had a lot of these same problems with my ex-metamour Lora and our hinge partner Jon.

What I parsed out in the end in part was that it shouldn't matter that she was my metamour, in terms of what kind of behavior I would accept from her. If she was doing something that I didn't like and wouldn't want to be around if she were a friend, or an acquaintance, then it would be valid for me to call it out/make it clear that I didn't want it around me.

For the part about you not being able to get a read on her, I'd be really tempted to ask her point-blank about whatever you're not able to get a read on and see what she says. If you're being straight with her, will she be straight back to you? Or will she keep being sarcastic?

About the abuse, if you're partner doesn't understand, I think it could be worthwhile to sit him down and talk to him about it - not just because of her, but because there could well be other people in his life who are taking advantage of certain things going "over his head" to be mean-spirited or shitty to him. I think it might be a tricky (and difficult) talk to navigate through, but perhaps encouraging him to get therapy to help identify the ways that people may treat him poorly, so that he understands it, and what it means, and learns to question it.

To me, if a person's words don't align with their actions, you need to go with what their actions tell you. There were a number of times in my relationship with Lora where she said that she "really got it" or "she was listening" or "she knew X was fucked up and wasn't going to do it again". And yet, she never actually got it, if she listened, her listening didn't change anything for more than a few weeks, and she did the same fucked up shit over and over again. What that told me was that her words meant nothing, because her actions never backed them up.

Chances are good that your gut is right, and your meta is bad news. For me, with Lora, I can tell you that Lora had a hard life with a lot of really shitty things that happened to her - some within her control, some not within her control. She learned to be abusive from people being abusive towards her. She had no self esteem, no self love. Whenever she as unhappy, she communicated and acted in the ways that people had communicated and acted towards her, to express their unhappiness. She was self-aware enough to realize this, but for whatever reason, she wasn't really able to change during the time that I knew her.

I say all that mainly to point out that chances are good that your meta is the way she is because she's had shitty role models and abuse in her life. This kind of behavior doesn't usually come out of people who were raised in a supportive, loving environment. That said, if she does have a past history of being abused, it doesn't excuse her current behaviors. It may explain them, but it doesn't make them acceptable.

Since Lora and Jon have broken up, Lora has improved in some ways with him, but that's because he laid down some hard limits, and he will walk away when she crosses them. It took several times of him getting up and terminating a lunch or dinner together early for her to understand that he wouldn't put up with it anymore, but eventually she got it (or so it seems, at the moment. I personally don't think it's been long enough to call it actual improvement vs. it being that she's temporarily modified her behavior to try to get him back).

For your meta, I'd say doing the same thing is best. Tell her your limits clearly. When she crosses them, tell her "Because you did X, which I told you that I will not be around, I am leaving" and leave.

One thing that I think is fairly important though is that your hinge does need to make the choice for himself, if he leaves or he stays. Even if she's being abusive towards him, you don't have the right to force him to leave - he needs to be the person who decides that for himself. Please believe me when I say that I know how hard that is, I saw all kinds of shitty things that Jon just choose to take; it really sucked. But everybody needs to make their own choices, and while you can absolutely talk to him as much as you want (and as much as he'll listen), at the end of the day, he needs to decide for himself what he wants to do with this woman.