Are these just poly growing pains?

[GalaGirl]

Perhaps that is part of why I am so anxious to make this work, to somehow not have done something morally wrong for no real end result. I don't know.

Sigh. Make peace with that. It was poor judgement, but don't beat yourself up. Forgive yourself, raise the standards bar. Move it forward. Choose to expect more from yourself, and deliver.

Don't just stay to "make up" for the cheating start. Two wrongs don't make right. You staying in a relationship that does not meet your needs is not healthy, and it just continues the self-disrespecting behavior. Respect yourself more than that.

You alone cannot make it work. You hold up your end of agreements and he holds up his end of agreements. Then it naturally works because both are sharing the load of relationship responsibilities.

You went against "that part of my brain" before, in the cheating start. Don't go against it now that you are returning toward being in right relationship with yourself.

Focus on behavior done/not done. See what happens:

• You do what you said you would do.
• See if he follows through on his things he said he would do.

If he hits your limit, honor and respect yourself, and walk away. You deserve better treatment, and it starts with you treat yourself better, and not tolerating disrespect either from him or from yourself.

You raise your self respect by the behavior you choose. That in turn feeds your self esteem. It's hard to think much of yourself when you are behaving poorly. That inner critic is LOUD. But you can shut it up and reduce the volume when you have list of good behaviors you have chosen today. You can't change the past, but can learn from it, change your present, and face the future with your chin up.

You can do this. You have worth, dignity and value. Let yourself shine. I have faith in you.

 

[SchrodingersCat]

It's like, whatever state he was in after our talk was making it difficult for him to not slip back into cheating behavior, something never needed with me, rather than just being honest.

Learned behaviour is difficult to change. Old habits die hard. Practice lying enough, it becomes second nature. For someone like that, he doesn't even think about lying-- he just does it automatically.

I feel like he was maybe slowly coming back to us being us after his trip. I am hoping that asking those questions about her (where I have previously not mentioned her since the trip) hasn't set us back. I do think, though, that I have a right to be hurt, and I feel like I have nowhere to express that without damaging things further.

To me, that's a red flag. Whenever my husband and I have a "difficult talk," it brings us closer together in the end. It doesn't drive us apart.

For this to work, your bf has to want to communicate. He has to understand the value of honesty. Right now, it doesn't sound like he does. It sounds like he thinks relationships can be successful if you just put your head in the sand and pretend that everything is okay. It doesn't work that way.

My other concern is that he's practised at only showing his partners what they want to see. He showed his wife a devoted, honest, monogamous husband. That man does not exist. How can you be certain that the man you thought he was exists, either?

So, I'll see what happens. I'm not wearing blinders on the issues. He was told pretty firmly that if I do find out anything else has been kept from me (told him that omission is indeed lying) I would leave him. I don't want that to be the result, but I will do it.

The thing is, he's already been there. Lying is second nature for him.

Your threat only makes him more likely to be careful. You've put him right back in the same position as when he was married. You're telling him "You can't just do whatever you want. You need to be accountable." He doesn't want those limitations. He wants to do whatever he wants. He doesn't want to be accountable. So his response will likely be to make sure he doesn't get caught.

On one hand, you tell him it's okay to be non-monogamous with you. But as soon as you "have" him, you change the rules. You tell him you now want monogamy. You didn't mean it as permanent, but that's not how it would have come across. You changed the rules to make your relationship more like the marriage in which he was trapped. So he changed his behaviour to be more like the husband he was in that marriage.

So where do you go from here?

You don't trust him to tell the truth. He needs to earn that trust with complete transparency: giving you permission to access his Facebook, phone and email.

He doesn't trust you to be truly comfortable with non-monogamy. You need to earn that trust with permission that you don't retract when life gets tricky. For where he is right now, if he's going to learn that polyamory can work, he needs to do it on his terms. From your perspective, boundaries are reasonable. I agree. However, for him, right now, those boundaries are more likely to make him return to his old ways.

 

[lolalondon]

There is something here that confuses me. SJJ, please correct me if I'm wrong. I read through all your original posts, but I'm very tired today, so might be out of focus.

What I understood is:

• Yes, he cheated and yes, you were part of it. But you also helped him see he might not be wired for monogamy (not an excuse, but I know it's in the personal history of many poly people I've met before they learned to know themselves and got over the shame and guilt).
• He then left his wife, and refused to pretend to be mono or act mono, by learning to stand up for himself, and not apologising for who he is.
• He tried to be honest with you by texting her in the open and talking about her openly. You freaked out, so he reverted to his learned behaviour of keeping things underground.
• He only lied (from what I gathered) about his flights, when feeling very stressed, cornered and controlled, clearly triggering past (regressive) behaviours for him. Not an excuse, but hardly the making of a habitual liar?
• It sounds like every single time you asked him a question he told you the truth, however difficult; e.g., when you asked if he told her he loved her.
• You have betrayed his trust by going through his messages, and you haven't made sure you took precautions so that you are stable, e.g., have mental-health support or meds for anxiety when you started living together. This sounds like a problem which occurs regularly enough for you to have a management plan. I'm sure you know stress levels increase with major life changes. Of course you were distressed, and I empathise, but it still must have been difficult for him.
• He has now made attempts to do poly better, for example, taking note of important dates, and sharing them with her, so they can work around the "primary" relationship. Do you give him any positive reinforcement when he does things right and makes an effort, or only tell him how much he's hurt you when he does things wrong?
• Did you make it clear he had to report to you when they used the "L-word," or tell you how they communicate all they time? If not, I really fail to see how he was dishonest to you about the nature of their relationship.

I'm sure there are many things I've misunderstood here, but it does sound like you're blaming his behaviour for the difficulties you are having with managing your own emotions and fears of abandonment. (And boy, do I understand how difficult this can be.) But he sounds like he was under the impression that he'd get to fully express himself when he was with you, and then you started putting walls up, and changing boundaries, which is making him sad and resentful.

Just a thought. I'd say you need to try to trust him more, not less, if you really want to see if you have a future, because you are creating self-fulfilling prophecies.

 

[lolalondon]

On one hand, you tell him it's okay to be non-monogamous with you. But as soon as you "have" him, you change the rules. You tell him you now want monogamy. You didn't mean it as permanent, but that's not how it would have come across. You changed the rules to make your relationship more like the marriage in which he was trapped. So he changed his behaviour to be more like the husband he was in that marriage.

...

He doesn't trust you to be truly comfortable with non-monogamy. You need to earn that trust with permission that you don't retract when life gets tricky. For where he is right now, if he's going to learn that polyamory can work, he needs to do it on his terms. From your perspective, boundaries are reasonable. I agree. However, for him, right now, those boundaries are more likely to make him return to his old ways.

Exactly. I agree that he has to learn to be accountable for his behaviour. But when he did try to be transparent and show her Facebook messages, she reacted badly. Also, SJJ needs to be accountable for her behaviour, and how it triggers him.

 

[SJJ]

Well, that is sort of the right summing up. I think in what I originally posted, I was trying to convey that I felt somewhat to blame for having a freak out.

However, it is not the case that he only lied about the flights. He lied. when directly asked several times, about the nature of his relationship with the other woman over the course of months. He may have been honest that he was texting, but he wasn't being honest about what was going on. He consistently told me that he was not in love with her, it was just sex, etc. It was not that I was asking frequently and nagging, but I asked now and then, because I could sense something.

Repetitively, he was only honest on several topics when cornered into giving me a straight answer, after deflection attempts. I saw that as a hangover from cheating. I tried to give him room for that, and still am trying, but it doesn't stop it from hurting and causing me to question realities.

I am poly, and I helped him to realize that he is too. That is why I was attempting to convey that I felt some guilt.

However, that said, I don't think that absolves him from responsibility to me and my feelings. I told him from the very start of our relationship that I needed honesty, and that it would be the one thing that would cause my head to go into a swirl if violated. In the course of the last year (yes, I put myself there), I have done a lot of waiting, a lot of trusting, a lot of hanging in there and understanding things take time.

Maybe I should have waited until I was more stable. I did attempt before moving to get preemptive prescriptions, but I was without insurance, and with it being such a quick move I couldn't get somebody to see me in time. I am not meaning it to sound like an excuse, but I have told him since perhaps the second time we slept together everything about my abuse history, Whilst I, of course, have a responsibility to his emotions that I take very seriously, I feel that there is some responsibility he has to me, too, not least when part of his chasing of me was to go out of his way to tell me he would protect me emotionally and be the honest partner that others proved not to be.

Now, you are correct that I violated his trust myself with Facebook. Not only is that very much against my character, but I understand the hypocritical nature of that in relation to what I just said, so much so, that since writing my original post, I have told him about it, because I can't sit with dishonesty in my head. I told him what I saw and how I saw it. We discussed what he said and he put it somewhat in context. I am not totally sure how much I believe him, but I am attempting to conquer my trust issues with him.

I also asked to chat with/message the other woman. He assured me that she would not want to do that. But we did actually have a short conversation. She is not poly. She told me that she would not be comfortable in engaging with me again, because she can not understand being friendly with, or even talking to the 'main' woman, when she is the 'other' woman. Whilst that is contrary to my instincts, I am attempting to not let that bother me as much as it could.

I have no need to know the full details of their relationship, but prior to moving in with each other, we had talked about being each other's primaries, and how respect had to be shown to each other by any additional partners at all times, or things would end with that person. I am not sold on the fact that I am being respected, but I am trying to give the space for whatever plays out to play out. I have trouble seeing how a non-poly woman is going to be okay with not being with him solely, but time has to tell.

There are other issues that have 'wrong-footed' me, and part of that has been a change in his employment status right after we moved in together, which has caused me to be the financial support for both of us. He has been toying with the idea of going to Texas for a few months to help his parents fix up a rental property, so there can be some income coming his way. That bothers me more, in many ways, than the other woman. I understand the motivation, but I moved to LA to be with him, not to be alone without knowing anybody in the city for months, with the occasional visit. I think perhaps I could deal with one situation or the other, but both piled on top at the same time really set off the abandonment thing. If we have to survive that separation, I think we can. It is just scary for me.

We have had a lot of conversations since this posting. I think he is trying to be more open. In exchange, I am trying to take down my walls that I raised to protect myself. I feel he is worth the effort. I know that I wasn't fully without blame. I love him a great deal. I am willing to put in the work we both need. I think he is having as many 'sudden change of life' issues as I am. I hope we come out of this together, but if we don't, it wouldn't have been for a lack of trying.

I hope, one day, not to answer in novel length.

There is something here that confuses me. SJJ, please correct me if I'm wrong.

What I understood is:

• He cheated and you were part of it. But you also helped him see he might not be wired for monogamy (not an excuse, but I know it's in the personal history of many poly people I've met before they learned to know themselves and got over the shame and guilt).
• He then left his wife and refused to pretend to be mono or act mono; e.g., learned to stand up for himself and not apologise for who he is.
• He tried to be honest with you by texting her in the open and talking about her openly. You freaked out, so he reverted to his learned behaviour of keeping things underground.
• He only lied (from what I gathered) about his flights, when feeling very stressed, cornered and controlled, clearly triggering past (regressive) behaviours for him. Not an excuse, but hardly the making of a habitual liar.
• It sounds like every single time you asked him a question he told you the truth, however difficult, e.g., when you asked if he told her he loved her.
• You betrayed his trust by going through his messages. You haven't made sure you took precautions so that you are stable, e.g., have mental-health support or meds for anxiety. It sounds like a problems which occurs regularly enough for you to have a management plan. I'm sure you know stress levels increase with major life changes.
• He has now made attempts to do poly better, e.g., taking note of important dates and sharing with her so they can work around the 'primary' relationship. Do you give him an positive reinforcement when he does things right and make an effort, or only tell him how much he's hurt you when he does things wrong?
• Did you make it clear he had to report to you when they use the "L-word," or tell you how they communicate all they time? If not, I really fail to see how he was dishonest to you about the nature of their relationship.

It sounds like you're blaming his behaviour for the difficulties you are having with managing your own emotions and fears of abandonment... It sounds like he was under the impression that he'd get to fully express himself when he was with you. But you started putting walls up, and changing boundaries, which is making him sad and resentful. I'd say you need to try to trust him more, not less, if you really want to see if you have a future because you are creating self-fulfilling prophecies.

 

[SJJ]

I agree he has to learn to be accountable for his behaviour. But when he did try to be transparent and show her Facebook messages, she reacted badly. SJJ also needs to be accountable for her behaviour, and how it triggers him.

He never showed me anything. I saw messages that obviously I should not have seen, but beyond them just saying "love" caused me to wonder if I was being played. Given my (recent) history, it did send me for a spin. It is fair to say it triggered me. But my emotional safety is as important as his first steps into poly.

I'm putting a tremendous amount of effort into trying to repair us. It is time for me to exist in a larger capacity than I do now in his outward life. If I am no longer the "other woman," it is time for that to be shown. Hopefully, this will all just serve to eventually help us come out the other end stronger.

 

[lolalondon]

Apologies SJJ, I was referring to what you wrote in the beginning: "One day, he was texting her in the wide open, not really trying to hide anything."

I'm sorry if I was being harsh. I was just trying to balance what others on the forum were saying, because I felt it was a bit one-sided. But rereading my messages, I realise I might have been heavy-handed in what is clearly a delicate and complex situation. I hope things work out for the best.

 

[SJJ]

I was referring to what you wrote in the beginning: "One day, he was texting her in the wide open, not really trying to hide anything."

I'm sorry if I was being harsh. I was just trying to balance what others on the forum were saying, because I felt it was a bit one-sided. But rereading my messages, I realise I might have been heavy-handed in what is clearly a delicate and complex situation. I hope things work out for the best.

It is more than okay. I didn't post here just to be told how right I was on everything. I appreciate all views. They help me focus.

I am mostly a very together person that doesn't outwardly show distress. It makes me feel weak.

 

[lolalondon]

I am mostly a very together person that doesn't outwardly show distress. It makes me feel weak.

Do you think it's part of the problem? I'm only asking because I'm the same, in a way, and there's a big price to pay. If showing distress makes you feel weak, you might bottle it up, and when it explodes, your self-preservation mode might kick in in an OTT way.

I really struggle with the difference between the way I'd like to be (totally chill, secure, not finding poly difficult) and the reality that sometimes things make me feel sad, anxious, stressed or jealous. I have found that trying to put a on "brave face" without listening to my inner voice has resulted in me tying myself up in knots. I'd also feel guilty about finding it difficult in the first place. So when it finally comes out, it's completely overwhelming to me and my partner.

Also, I associated him being with others with me being miserable. I found it increasingly hard to forgive mistakes and move on. So my boundaries became stricter, to the point where they felt suffocating to my partner. Since letting go of the idea that I "should be stronger"/more okay with things, accepting we've both made mistakes, separating my insecurities from the dynamics of his other relationships, and accepting my own distress by simply being able to say "I feel sad" before it escalates in my head, things have been much better. Perhaps accepting yourself and your feelings, without seeing them as a weakness, would help with the healing.

 

[SJJ]

I'm pretty certain that is part of the problem. Between being a young widow, trying not to let that destroy me, and then being immensely private about my abuse for years, until my life was threatened, and I felt I needed to find solace in a friend, I am almost trained to swallow my feelings, so as not to upset other people. (It so happens that the friend who was the first person I told about my abuse was the man [that was later part of my triad] who cheated on me.)

I am a classic over-thinker. And it's really hard for me to trust. But when I do, I am an extremely loyal partner (even in a poly sense). So, when I do give trust, and it is violated, I take it into my brain far too deeply.

I recognize where a lot of my issues probably originate. My health insurance kicked in this week and I intend to find a therapist. I really want one who understands poly, which is likely going to be challenge on insurance. I have never been comfortable with the idea of therapy because of the difficulty I have with opening up, but I know I have to attempt to take care of myself and deal with the abuse aftermath, if nothing else. (I would like it if he would eventually go with me, but I don't think that is all that likely. So, for now, it is going to be me looking after my own mental health.)

 

[SchrodingersCat]

Repetitively , he was only honest on several topics when cornered into giving me a straight answer after deflection attempts. I see that as a hangover from cheating. I tried to give room for that. I'm still trying. But it doesn't stop it from hurting and causing me to question realities.

I also asked to chat with the other woman. He assured me that she would not want to do that, but we did actually have a short conversation. She is not poly. She told me that she would not be comfortable in engaging with me again, because she can not understand being friendly or even talking to the 'main' woman when she is the 'other' woman. Whilst that is contrary to my instincts, I am attempting to not let that bother me as much as it could. I have no need to know the full details of their relationship. But prior to us moving in with each other, we had talked about being each other's 'primaries,' and how respect had to be shown to each other by any additional partners at all times, or things would end with that person. I am not sold on the fact that I am being respected. But I am trying to give the space for whatever plays out to play out. I have trouble seeing how a non-poly woman is going to be okay with not being with him solely, but time will tell.

Look, hon, he's a cheater. It's not a "hangover" from cheating; it is cheating. Cheating doesn't have to mean having an illicit affair. Lying about the details of a relationship you know about is included in cheating. Telling you he's doing one thing, and then doing another, is cheating. He is still cheating. Right now, that's who he is. I'm not saying people can't change; I'm saying it doesn't sound like he has.

He's dating a woman who dates cheaters. She sees herself as the "other woman" which is a cheating-culture mentality. She's going to encourage and support him to continue cheating-like behavior. As much as some people get a rush out of cheating, others get a rush out of being the other woman.

He lies to you. He hides things from you. He chooses women who date cheaters and are not poly.

As long as everything goes exactly the way he wants, and he doesn't have to make any concessions in the relationship, there's a slight possibility that he won't cheat. But you have reasonable boundaries. Are you being fair to yourself by throwing away your boundaries just so he can do whatever the fuck he wants, whenever the fuck he wants?

As long as you continue to have your reasonable boundaries, such as monogamy while you get your footing solid (and as a poly-wired person, I think that's a perfectly reasonable boundary), he will continue to smile and nod and tell you what he thinks you want to hear, and then go behind your back and do whatever the fuck he wants. That's who he is right now. Can he change? Sure. But not overnight.

By the sounds of it, honesty is the one thing you asked for. Honesty is the one thing you haven't gotten. At what point do you put your money where your mouth is? By staying with him when he lies to you, you enable him. You send the message that it's okay for him to ignore your boundaries. It's not okay.