Bad reaction to primary coming back from trip

[GalaGirl]

I think I am enmeshed with John. I love him so deeply, I don't want anyone else. Opening up the relationship has been harder than expected. I need to figure out how to have my needs met too.

It doesn't have to be a date, just your OWN STUFF. Go make new friends, join a club, have some things in your life that do NOT revolve around John or include John. Be less enmeshed.

But if someone does strike your fancy, and you have a date, what's wrong with having a date? It may or may not pan out past one date. But stop shrinking yourself.

2. I don't think we've had to deal with this before, so there isn't a space where I feel safe and trusting after doom talk. As it's new, I've been working through things individually. After a blow-up like yesterday, I try to talk to him and reconnect after.

Does it occur to you that's because you used to let John "lead" in this relationship, so John never was really challenged? There wasn't doom talk because John lived in a little bubble where everything was how John wanted it, since he was leading. Now that you are growing and making changes and setting personal boundaries and healing your family-of-origin neglect stuff... maybe John's not liking that.

Or maybe you are outgrowing how you and John used to be, with him always the leader, which means John is being called to grow/heal some of his own things and SHARE leadership in this relationship. And he's not excited about that?

I think John is emotionally resilient, but has an avoidant nature so when things aren't going his way he retracts.

To me, emotionally resilient people don't avoid stuff. They do healthy conflict resolution, rather than hiding from it or avoiding it.

I do think there should be more grace around this adjustment period and not instant love and happiness for everything.

I think so too. You have some things, but all in all, it sounds FINE for the stage you are at. You just want more notice before (John + Ted) have dates in your shared home. That's totally reasonable!

All this other stuff seems to be stemming from John's unrealistic expectations and then you not being entirely strong in your personal boundaries. You seem to want to help him a lot with his feelings, rather than expecting him to do his own emotional management.

Now that I've learned about your family background, I start to wonder...

Sometimes kids end up doing that -- people-pleasing, placating, trying to "premanage" the parent's feelings, trying to keep the hothead parent "happy," so they don't rain doom on the kid.

With this age-gap relationship, have you been kinda doing that with John, falling into old family-of-origin patterns without realizing it, and trying to "carry" him or manage his feelings for him?

4. I think he does have unrealistic expectations and wants everyone to be comfy and happy and if that doesn't happen he thinks he's making this too hard on everyone. I think he wants compersion ideally, but I explained to him that I won't always have that for him and Ted and that's okay for me.

I find it odd that the younger partner has to be explaining this to the older partner.

Compersion doesn't have to be this waving pompoms and doing cartwheels thing. It can be "glad you are glad with your partner," and that's it.

But it's okay to just not even have that. It could be "Whatevs. What you and your partner do on that side of V is your biz."

I don't want to carry all of the emotional labor, but I think in fairness he has less to carry. He loves both me and Ted and he's happy with it.

I don't think he has less to carry.

If he's a hinge with two partners:

• He has to do his fair share of the work in the (you + John) dyad.
• He has to do his fair share of the work in the (Ted + John) dyad.

And not just coast in both partnerships. Like:

• In the (you + John) dyad you do most of the work.
• In the (Ted + John) dyad Ted does most of the work.

Galagirl

 

[Magdlyn]

Distentangling:

The Most Skipped Step When Opening a Relationship

You’ve had hundreds of hours of discussions on what your open relationship will look like? Check!

medium.com

 

[GalaGirl]

And...

The Other Skipped Step in Opening Up — MAKING POLYAMORY WORK

Transcript Why is it that some monogamous couples who open up their relationship end up blowing everything apart while others don't are the people who make it work just better. People immune to jealousy at one, with the abundance of love while the people who end up bitter and broken, just aren't

www.makingpolyamorywork.com

GG

 

[polynewgirl08]

Having a regular schedule solves all that. You have your days with John. Ted has his. So if Ted has Tues and Friday, you know it already and can prepare accordingly.

Children/teens have few defenses when growing up in a neglectful household. "Lay low and don't get noticed" and being "super-obedient/compliant" basically help them avoid parental ire. I get not wanting to rock the boat if the parent or whoever might rain doom on the kid. But that's not CAUSING the problem. The problem lies in the parent not being able to manage themselves and NOT rain ire on kids. That type of parent usually yells stuff like "You make me blah-blah!" but it's just not true. If the kid COULD make the parent do stuff, they sure as hell wouldn't pick making the parent rain doom on the kid. The parent lacking self control is not the kid's fault.

If any of that happened to you, I'm sorry. But you are grown up now, and not in that household. I think you need to learn to have and enforce personal boundaries, even if, as a kid, it was not taught or respected.

Why don't you think people in monogamous relationships need to have and maintain personal boundaries?

Why is that? You just both took each other and each other's time for granted, and didn't bother to schedule quality time and dates together anymore?

"What I need to be more comfortable is either a regular schedule or at least X hours notice. You only giving me Y hours notice bothers me."

Keep it on actions/behaviors done/not done. Stop going off into "feelings" talk, if it just ends up in mess.

Be okay with him feeling guilty. He IS giving you very short notice. If you tell him you don't like that, and he feels bad, that's a natural consequence to his behavior and your feedback. If he doesn't want to feel that way any more, he can learn to schedule Ted for Tues and Friday this semester (or whatever days). Next semester, maybe mix it up, and/or learn to give more heads-up than Y hours.

That is totally fair. You aren't the one in NRE.

You don't have to feel compersion. You can do whatever you feel like doing when they are having a date in your house.

Even just reading some of your posts makes me kinda cringe. It's like you don't get any breathing room or emotional space, because John wants to take up his emotional space and then wants to tell you how you need to be in your emotional space. Come on, John! Stay in your own lane!

That is where you are going to have to get firmer with your personal boundaries, tell him when he's crossing lines with poor behavior, and tell him what behavior you want instead.

ACTIONS. Not all this talk about feelings. Request for changes in his ACTIONS.

1. You're right. I think I was worried about bringing up set days or a schedule because it felt restrictive. And sometimes schedules change, but all in all, if there were set days, it might be easier for everyone. I was getting used to them going out on dates/hanging out 2-3 times a week, but it was always sporadic. I think this would be a good framework.

2. Thank you for your support and condolences. I've worked through this in therapy of years, and you are right; I need to learn to have and enforce personal boundaries. I believe I'm working on these areas and it was part of me trying to communicate with him how I was feeling/boundaries, but ended up oversharing. haha. I recognize now I can have boundaries and live my life, and he can cope, like you said.

3. This is a good point. I do think personal boundaries are important for mono relationships I think I've never had a healthy example of this, so it wasn't implemented in our relationship, since I hadn't learned how to have them and implement them.

4. I think, for our relationship, before it was open, we just had dates and check-ins whenever. It wasn't scheduled and we spend a lot of quality time together. Whereas now he's splitting his time between me and Ted, so they schedule time, and maybe it's good for us to do that too.

5. That's a great note. I think this will be helpful and receptive for him to focus on actions/behaviors done/not done. Good to know feelings talk ends up messy. I didn't realize this, but it makes so much sense!

6. That's true, and I didn't think about it that way. I need to have my emotional space and breathing room and advocate for the behavior I want and tell him about poor behavior.

 

[polynewgirl08]

It doesn't have to be a date, just your OWN STUFF. Go make new friends, join a club, have some things in your life that do NOT revolve around John or include John. Be less enmeshed.

But if someone does strike your fancy, and you have a date, what's wrong with having a date? It may or may not pan out past one date. But stop shrinking yourself.

Does it occur to you that's because you used to let John "lead" in this relationship, so John never was really challenged? There wasn't doom talk because John lived in a little bubble where everything was how John wanted it, since he was leading. Now that you are growing and making changes and setting personal boundaries and healing your family-of-origin neglect stuff... maybe John's not liking that.

Or maybe you are outgrowing how you and John used to be, with him always the leader, which means John is being called to grow/heal some of his own things and SHARE leadership in this relationship. And he's not excited about that?

To me, emotionally resilient people don't avoid stuff. They do healthy conflict resolution, rather than hiding from it or avoiding it.

I think so too. You have some things, but all in all, it sounds FINE for the stage you are at. You just want more notice before (John + Ted) have dates in your shared home. That's totally reasonable!

All this other stuff seems to be stemming from John's unrealistic expectations and then you not being entirely strong in your personal boundaries. You seem to want to help him a lot with his feelings, rather than expecting him to do his own emotional management.

Now that I've learned about your family background, I start to wonder...

Sometimes kids end up doing that -- people-pleasing, placating, trying to "premanage" the parent's feelings, trying to keep the hothead parent "happy," so they don't rain doom on the kid.

With this age-gap relationship, have you been kinda doing that with John, falling into old family-of-origin patterns without realizing it, and trying to "carry" him or manage his feelings for him?

I find it odd that the younger partner has to be explaining this to the older partner.

Compersion doesn't have to be this waving pompoms and doing cartwheels thing. It can be "glad you are glad with your partner," and that's it.

But it's okay to just not even have that. It could be "Whatevs. What you and your partner do on that side of V is your biz."

I don't think he has less to carry.

If he's a hinge with two partners:

• He has to do his fair share of the work in the (you + John) dyad.
• He has to do his fair share of the work in the (Ted + John) dyad.

And not just coast in both partnerships. Like:

• In the (you + John) dyad you do most of the work.
• In the (Ted + John) dyad Ted does most of the work.

Hi, GG. Thank you for taking the time to chat with me a lot today. haha. sorry there are so many threads!

Yes, this is a great idea. I want to be less enmeshed and explore interests or even dates outside of John. I think getting more active socially will also help me feel free to live my life and prioritize what I like and want to get involved in. I think in our mono relationship things got comfortable and routine and I didn't make it so much of a point to go out and do things on my own, or see friends as often.

I'm glad that from your POV things seem fine and it's reasonable to want more notice before Ted comes over. I know now the key is living my life and not oversharing how I'm personally dealing with things or what personal boundaries I may have. I can request action or behavior, but he doesn't need to know every detail of how I'm feeling about the situation.

I think you're hitting the bullseye with that statement. John wasn't challenged in our bubble and everything was how he wanted it and now things change as I'm setting my own boundaries and communicating that with him. I like the term share leadership in the relationship. I want that and I want us to be equitable partners in this. I think our age difference does cause a power dynamic and I totally recognize I people please in our relationship, but didn't realize I was trying to premanage his feelings or carry him. I didn't realize I was trying to help him with his feelings rather than let him manage things emotionally.

I think by opening up this relationship I'm realizing I don't want to people please and that I want to advocate for my needs as I want to feel comfortable and happy and secure.

That's a good note around compersion. I think a part of him is worried about my reactions and how I'm dealing with Ted, but I explained that I can be happy for him and accepting of his relationship and not be ecstatic that Ted is in our home or that you're going on dates. I think the share of work may be off, but I don't know his and Ted's relationship. I think because it's new there are less heavy adjustments like we are dealing with and they are learning more of how to be together and what their relationship looks like. How should I go about ensuring that the work for our dyad is equal, since I'm the one who does not have a partner?

 

[Bobbi]

I am allowed to be with genders I am attracted to alone for casual sex and relationships, but don't choose to pursue it currently. I've gone on one date separate from John, and the reaction wasn't good. We've talked through it and it's turned me off from exploring romantic connections. John has brought up my getting a boyfriend, or going on dates in fantasy talk, but due to his previous reaction, I haven't felt comfortable exploring it. I believe I am happy with John.

It looks like you AREN'T allowed to, without John's inability to handle his emotions enough to own that he needs to work on his insecurity and jealousy. (Same issue as other thread-- he is not emotionally stable and able to handle having feelings without making them your fault.)

John needs to learn basics about emotions, both yours and his. Emotions are okay to have. You are responsible for regulating, feeling, working through and owning your own emotional responses. They are normal and okay to have. But each individual is 100% responsible for how they act or respond as a result of those emotions. Dismissing other's emotions, trying to control other's emotions, or taking them on as your own and getting defensive is not healthy personally or for the relationship. This is a big thing he needs to work on if you two are going to be happy

 

[Bobbi]

3. I think, in his perfect world, I would be happy and comfortable any time they hang out, or are here, and I shouldn't have any bad feelings

This takes time... Hell, you can't even date without him having feelings so strong that you don't want to date at all! You are doing the work and he needs to let you do the work without feeling guilty.

And he needs to do the work so you can date too. And you should date. He cannot do the work if he is never exposed. It takes exposure, repeated exposure, and your relationship still being good to get past that.

He needs to know that bad feelings are okay when you want to learn to work through it.

The bad feelings that are not okay are ones that come with severe anger, severe crying and thoughts of doom-- essentially everything HE is doing. HE is doing it to you, HE is doing it to himself and if he isn't already, HE will be doing it to his other partner.

You sound like you are doing a great job recognizing how you feel, thinking of ways to help you get through it more easily, and asking him for simple accommodations. Most poly people would love a partner who worked on things like that.

 

[GalaGirl]

Glad it helped you some today.

I think I was worried about bringing up set days or a schedule because it felt restrictive.

How's it restrictive to know Ted is here at the house Tues and Friday? And if John wants to see him more it will be somewhere else, NOT at your house? John's free to be spontaneous, go hang with Ted extra, whenever -- just only HERE at the house on Tues and Friday.

So you get what you need too -- enough notice/clear expectations and less of this sporadic random stuff.

I think you're hitting the bullseye with that statement. John wasn't challenged in our bubble and everything was how he wanted it and now things change as I'm setting my own boundaries and communicating that with him. I like the term share leadership in the relationship. I want that and I want us to be equitable partners in this. I think our age difference does cause a power dynamic and I totally recognize I people please in our relationship, but didn't realize I was trying to premanage his feelings or carry him. I didn't realize I was trying to help him with his feelings rather than let him manage things emotionally.

I think by opening up this relationship I'm realizing I don't want to people please and that I want to advocate for my needs as I want to feel comfortable and happy and secure.

You seem thoughtful, open to change, willing to grow, and are already working with a counselor.

It's okay to just think things over and run them by your counselor the next time you see them. No rush. The appointment is when it is. You can just reflect.

Then tell the counselor this stuff, especially about wanting to stop people-pleasing, wanting to advocate for your needs, wanting to learn better boundaries, and wanting to detangle from John, so it's not so enmeshed. Wanting to get on with doing more of your own things. Wanting the relationship to be less John leading everything and more each one doing their fair share and taking turns. Shared leadership.

That's a good note around compersion. I think a part of him is worried about my reactions and how I'm dealing with Ted, but I explained that I can be happy for him and accepting of his relationship and not be ecstatic that Ted is in our home or that you're going on dates.

It's okay to be there for a partner to a reasonable and rational degree, but you seem to explain a LOT of things to John. Did you actually wait for John to make a request for more info? Or are you in the habit of just jumping in with lots of explaining and comforting and reassuring on auto-pilot from the people-pleasing, or perhaps anxiety, or both?

How about less JADE about your feelings and stuff (justify, argue, defend, explain) and a little more basic mirroring? "Yes. I see you are worried." and that's it, because you expect John to figure out his stuff and do his own emotional management.

He has a counselor for his depression, right? He has a person to work things out with. You don't have to be the extra free therapist here.

You might benefit from reading Marshal Rosenberg's NVC books. There are many but I like Living Nonviolent Communication: Practical Tools to Connect and Communicate Skillfully in Every Situation the best.

I think the share of work may be off, but I don't know his and Ted's relationship. I think because it's new there are less heavy adjustments like we are dealing with and they are learning more of how to be together and what their relationship looks like. How should I go about ensuring that the work for our dyad is equal since I'm the one who does not have a partner?

You don't need to know how (Ted+John) is going. That's their deal on THAT side of the poly V. You need to know basics, like they use safer sex practices, since that impacts your own sexual health, since you also share sex with John. But you don't need to know TMI details about how their relationship is going or functioning.

You also don't have to have a partner of your own in a new (you + X) dyad to change how you behave in (you + John) dyad.

If you are realizing that you have been overdoing it here in the (you+John) dyad, you pull back and STOP doing so much, so you are only doing your fair share. Stop people-pleasing, stop being the free therapist, do less JADE and more mirroring, expect John to deal with his own feelings more, and move forward with the couple counseling idea.

You will see if John steps up to do his fair share too, or if he just doesn't and things don't get done any more because you quit doing them. That doesn't mean you have to jump in and start doing them again. It means you get to do your fair share and you get to see this relationship in another light.

The two main issues are:

1) John, I need more notice. We need a regular schedule, and/or I need to be told X hours ahead of when Ted is expected to be here in our shared home. This right now is too sporadic for me.

2) John, you are overloading me with all your feelings/mood swings. Every time you get into a funk, you talk about maybe wanting to break up with me. I'm tired of this behavior. Either actually break up with me, or manage your doom thoughts with your counselor better.

Stop saying things like that to me. It grows tiresome. I want to be with you, but I don't feel safe in this relationship if you act like you want to dump me every few weeks/months.

Galagirl