Broken and cynical

I'm probably going to show how uncool or unhip I am... But I don't know what PIV or GGG is. So I honestly can't comment on that.

That being said. I can't leave for work with a cliffhanger like that. She's the type to do one of two things if I told her that I needed to talk to her about something after I get home...

1: She won't stop asking what it is. She'll call me at work & want to press the issue. Even if I choose not to answer her, she'll hop in the car & come down to work. That last one is really a 50/50. I've seen her do it, but it's possible she may not... Which would lead us to...

2: She'll just load up on her meds (not in an overdosing fashion) to try & sleep so that it distracts her from obsessing about it.

As for the sex. It's not that anyone is looking at it as a "duty", but sometimes, I think we want to please our partner(s), even if we're not fully into it. I know it's a fine line, but I have to think that we've all had that moment on occasion where we "did a favor" for them...

In my case. I never used to have a problem being up for it. But lately, I just don't seem to want it. And it's not a matter of intercourse vs. other activities, I'm simply not interested in any sexual activity at the moment. And I don't mean to just blame it on a libido, but I honestly don't know if it's something that's just temporary, or not. I don't think it's temporary, but anything could happen. Something dramatic could change & I could be back to my "old self". I don't know.

I am planning to talk with her tonight though. I'm still trying to figure out exactly what to say, but it's something along the lines of letting her know that, ever since her revelation, I just don't have much of an interest in sex anymore. I feel hurt, I feel betrayed, and while I feel better about myself, I feel very hurt in coming to realize that things are never going to be the same again. Not that I can't ultimately be "ok", but I just don't feel the same as I used to, and there are pieces that I don't think are ever going to return.
 
kdt26417 said:
How did it go?
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We had the talk Friday night, and continued it a little bit on Saturday morning. Overall, it went alright. She was upset because she said that she never wanted me to feel like this, and she regrets ever entertaining the thought. She says she understands, but I'm not confident that she actually does.

As for me, I guess we'll just ride this out for a little while. I'm not exactly in a hurry to leave right now. It's not like I have any interest in looking for another relationship or anything. She knows that she is free to pursue what she wants, when she wants. And honestly, I don't even care anymore if she wants to find another partner. As long as it's not in our home, and I don't have to hear about it. But in the meantime, I'm happy to play the part to a degree. I still take care of the house, pay the bills, do my share of the cooking & cleaning, etc...

I did my best to caution her throughout the past that I despise having to think about the additional partners concept. We both knew where each other stood on the topic in the abstract. But I had made it very clear that it was pretty much the only line (aside from issues of physical violence) that would definitively end our marriage. I don't believe in second chances for such a thing, and there's no way that I would ever be able to get past it & continue to be married. So what was I supposed to think when she, knowing this, chose to tell me anyway? She tells me that it was all about wanting to be honest. But I truly don't think that that was the case, since she immediately backtracked & scaled down what she claims to have wanted as soon as she saw that I was having a hard time.

And I know that it comes off as me "shutting her down". I get that. But I would ask anyone reading this... If their partner told them: "I can't stand thinking about it, and I don't ever want to talk about it.", Would you consider your partner the bad guy for being heartbroken when you tell him/her? Would you even say anything if you really didn't have any intention on following through with it?
 
As for me, I guess we'll just ride this out for a little while. I'm not exactly in a hurry to leave right now. It's not like I have any interest in looking for another relationship or anything. She knows that she is free to pursue what she wants, when she wants. And honestly, I don't even care anymore if she wants to find another partner. As long as it's not in our home, and I don't have to hear about it.
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Sounds like it went as well as it could. And you guys are in the process of "slow detachment" or "uncoupling."

It's not a place to stay forever, but I get feeling like batteries have been run down and wanting to recharged first. Not wanting to leap into the next process (ex: divorce) all depleted because that process also takes some energy too. Pacing yourself so you can make it.

I would ask anyone reading this... If their partner told them: "I can't stand thinking about it, and I don't ever want to talk about it.", Would you consider your partner the bad guy for being heartbroken when you tell him/her? Would you even say anything if you really didn't have any intention on following through with it?
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If my husband told me he is not up for Open marriage and he doesn't want to think or talk about it? I would say that is fair for him to state where he stands on that.

I would ask for clarification though -- does that mean NEVER talk to him about my poly/Open feelings or anything remotely related to anything Open?

Or does he mean (I can talk about how I think and how I feel all I want with him). That to him is sharing emotional intimacy with me. He is ok with this.

Just do not (ask him to participate in an Open marriage) because he doesn't want to do that. That to him is asking him to do things with his person that he does not want to do. He is not ok with this.

One allows me authentic self expression and deep connection with my spouse. One does not. And for me that is a deal breaker. So I would want some clarification.

If I can express myself freely, then I might consider a Closed thing. But if I have to pretend parts of me do not exist? Not up for that. I rather end it sooner rather than later. Because if I cannot be my authentic self with my spouse, my supposed nearest and dearest, why is this person my spouse? :confused: They are unable to give me what I want in a marriage.

If I DID want Open? I would inform him. "I want to pursue Open relationships. I know you do not want Open marriage. We are no longer compatible in our wants. I would like to talk about parting ways peacefully so you can continue to be free of it and I can be free to pursue it. I would like to be respectful about it all."

I would not consider my husband to be a "bad guy" because he's sad at the news. I think it is normal to feel sad when your spouse says they want to break up. Why is it "bad" for him to have a natural response?

That makes no sense to me.

If husband didn't want to be in an Open marriage, that's fine. But if husband was not holding up his end of the stick INSIDE the marriage where I could give and receive mental and emotional intimacy -- I would def speak up about that!

I don't want to be in a hollow feeling marriage just going through the motions. There's more to marriage than just body intimacy. I want a spouse who wants to share intimacy of the mind and heart too.

Galagirl
 
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CTF said:
But I would ask anyone reading this... If their partner told them: "I can't stand thinking about it, and I don't ever want to talk about it.", Would you consider your partner the bad guy for being heartbroken when you tell him/her? Would you even say anything if you really didn't have any intention on following through with it?
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Yes. Because people change over time. And I trust that my relationship could withstand us simply talking about the possibility of something. I'm not sure I could bear to be with anyone who told me 'there's a thing in the world and I never ever ever want to talk to you about it'. Because to me a huge part of relating to a romantic partner lies in trusting them to listen to my desires - whether I want to actually act on them or not - without judgement. That is completely different from expecting them to agree to help me pursue my desires, I think you can agree.

Back to your original situation…I think it's good that you have spoken to her about it. For me, a feeling like you are describing cannot be something that I shift in my own mind. Whatever barriers have been created that have shut down your feelings of desire for her, whatever part of you has retreated into your shell to protect yourself, it's not a thing you can heal by stoicism or bottling up your feelings. The old adage is true: a problem shared is a problem halved. Whether or not you currently feel like this is something you want to work through, or if it's more like a trigger for the transition to a different kind of relationship with your wife, telling her where you stand right now on the issue is important. She deserves to be kept in the loop in terms of how you feel about her. Not in a 'you did this, I want you to feel guilty' kind of way. But so she can have the chance to help if she can.
 
CTF said:
I did my best to caution her throughout the past that I despise having to think about the additional partners concept....I had made it very clear that it was pretty much the only line (aside from issues of physical violence) that would definitively end our marriage. I don't believe in second chances for such a thing, and there's no way that I would ever be able to get past it & continue to be married.
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If you made this clear to her, then she knew what she was doing when she developed an emotional attachment to another and certainly when she told you about it. In my own marriage, it was a deal breaker for my husband, too, CTF, much as I would have preferred it not be. Many people feel as you do and this is one of those "can't negotiate" subjects like whether to have children. It's huge for many people. Even though this isn't my value, I can easily see how it would spell the end of the relationship for you. I don't see that either of you is wrong, just that you two have a serious mismatch in values.

Let me ask, in all curiosity and I'm not being facetious at all: Would you have preferred that she had this relationship in secret? Do you think that it would have been easier on you to have never known about it?
 
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FallenAngelina said:
Let me ask, in all curiosity and I'm not being facetious at all: Would you have preferred that she had this relationship in secret? Do you think that it would have been easier on you to have never known about it?
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As odd as it sounds, if that relationship had to exist at all, then yes I think would have preferred it be kept in secret.

I realize that it, along with my other remarks give the impression that I don't value communication. I don't personally feel like that's the case, but I've always been the type to try & avoid hurtful situations if possible, and knowing that something like that is going to hurt, I just don't see the value in having the talk at all.

I used to work with a guy years ago, who played in a band. He mentioned cheating on his wife a couple of times with girls from the clubs. He said he regretted it terribly, and didn't do it anymore, but when I asked him if he ever told his wife, he said no. He said that being so many years removed, it didn't feel fair burdening her with that pain. He said he felt like the guilt was his responsibility, not hers. I know it seems to some that it's a permission slip to cheat, and it may be a bit of a cop out, but something about that stuck with me... I've been cheated on in almost every relationship I've been in before my wife came along. The girl I was dating previously, had pressed pretty hard about a threesome. When I told her that I wasn't interested in that, she asked if I minded if she slept with him anyway. And even though I told her I wasn't okay with it, she did it anyway. Came to find out after the fact that she had already slept with him before she asked about it.

My wife knew that additional partners was an extremely sore & painful subject for me. It's like former drug addicts talking about their heroin benders - just a part that some people never want to face again. She knew this before we got married, so she had a choice too. If she had that tendency at all, then it was her decision as to whether or not it was more important to be monogamous with me.

Yes, some people change, but not everyone does. I honestly find it unfair that those who don't change, often have to cater more to those that do.

As for our relationship, yes... Sad to say, it's pretty stale right now.
 
CTF said:
As odd as it sounds, if that relationship had to exist at all, then yes I think would have preferred it be kept in secret......She knew this before we got married, so she had a choice too. If she had that tendency at all, then it was her decision as to whether or not it was more important to be monogamous with me.
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Well, this is exactly why so many people have affairs - because they never expected to develop feelings for another, but as the years go on, it happens. And when it happens, there is no framework around which to accommodate it. The choices usually are: keep things quiet and be intimate with two people at once or lose everything - or at very least have a shit storm on your hands. I completely understand why most people choose to keep extramarital relationships a secret. It's often the most respectful choice, given the limited options. Many, many spouses like you, CTF, don't see the value of "honesty," view it as extremely selfish and would just rather not know. Polyamory seems downright insane to the vast majority of folks and at least affairs are comprehensible. So goes the thinking.

I was just curious about your perspective. As always, thank you for responding.
 
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FallenAngelina said:
Well, this is exactly why so many people have affairs - because they never expected to develop feelings for another, but as the years go on, it happens. And when it happens, there is no framework around which to accommodate it. The choices usually are: keep things quiet and be intimate with two people at once or lose everything - or at very least have a shit storm on your hands. I completely understand why most people choose to keep extramarital relationships a secret. It's often the most respectful choice, given the limited options. Many, many spouses like you, CTF, don't see the value of "honesty," view it as extremely selfish and would just rather not know. Polyamory seems downright insane to the vast majority of folks and at least affairs are comprehensible. So goes the thinking.

I was just curious about your perspective. As always, thank you for responding.
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I get what you're saying. I totally do. And I fully understand that these feelings often pop up without much of a warning, and some people may feel guilty about it & wish they didn't have those feelings. So yeah, they can either indulge it in secret, or communicate honestly about it. I think what I find bothersome, is how in some instances, those who have these feelings for another act as though it's their current partner's duty to go with the flow. The "if he/she really loves you, he/she will accept it". The problem is, that many aren't even on the same page of their definition of "accept".

My wife used to throw that in my face all the time... "I just hoped you'd accept me for who I am". And then I asked her... "What does that even mean? What does acceptance look like to you?". She said that she didn't even know. But she didn't think I'd be severely depressed by it.

My point to her, and I think to anyone struggling with this "acceptance" dialogue, is that to me, accepting something simply means that you acknowledge it, and are doing nothing drastic to change it against the other person's will. But it doesn't mean that we have to be happy about it, etc...

My dad died... I accepted it. Does that mean that I can be hurt by it? Of course not. And to some, this situation is seen as hurtful & devastating. It's a loss in its own way.
 
So yeah, they can either indulge it in secret, or communicate honestly about it
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Or feel whatever, do nothing about it, and not say anything about it. Just let the feelings pass. I dislike it when people act like they have no control over their behavior choices because "feelings." Having some feelings about something doesn't mean it is "destiny" or something. Jeez. Being overwhelmed by feelings and making bad choices? That might be an explanation but it is not an excuse. We are not children.

The "if he/she really loves you, he/she will accept it".
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That's emotional blackmail /manipulation to me. Saying something like that is "EITHER you do this thing I say, OR you don't really love me."

To me? Love is shared. It does not have to be "proven."

If my lover wants to have another lover, I can accept that. But I don't have to automatically consent to be in an Open relationship because they want something.

I don't have to consent to "prove" that I love this partner. My loving belongs to me. My consent belongs to me. I chose when to give my love or give my consent.

It is possible for me to BOTH love someone, AND accept that they want something else for a relationship model now AND still not want to go along with that new model. It's ok for me to decline the offer.

Not everything is "either / or."

Some things are "both /and."

Galagirl
 
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CTF said:
I used to work with a guy years ago, who played in a band. He mentioned cheating on his wife a couple of times with girls from the clubs. He said he regretted it terribly, and didn't do it anymore, but when I asked him if he ever told his wife, he said no. He said that being so many years removed, it didn't feel fair burdening her with that pain. He said he felt like the guilt was his responsibility, not hers.
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Actually, in this case, to me this is a valid and dare I say ethical approach. The affairs are years in the past, and he has already corrected his behavior to be in line with his monogamous promisses. Telling now would be getting rid of the guilt.
I know my mother has this approach towards infidelity.
I'd better like know immediatelly though, so that I can protect my sexual health and make decisions. Also, it's a make or break moment, but I think getting over it strenghtens the relationship (as problems have to be solved), while secrets don't.
 
CTF said:
... in some instances, those who have these feelings for another act as though it's their current partner's duty to go with the flow. The "if he/she really loves you, he/she will accept it".
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I think that is highly unusual. Most people don't expect that their partner/spouse would be anywhere near accepting of the relationship, and that's why affairs are secret. Affairs and lovers are historically accepted as part of life. Private, secret love has always been and always will be so long as we have social expectations and the reality that love just cannot be controlled. I'm not advocating for any particular response to this, I'm just pointing out that secret love (and OK, lust) exists in every culture that has ever existed and it's not because people are "weak" or wrong but because people try to maintain social stability when Love comes calling. I think that open polyamory (as opposed to poly-fi) is the most win-win approach to all of this, but I'm in the vast minority. Most people think that being "honest" and open about lovers is disrespectful, nuts and they'd just rather not even have to think about it - even though "most people" are well aware that this goes on. A lot.
 
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GalaGirl said:
Or feel whatever, do nothing about it, and not say anything about it. Just let the feelings pass. I dislike it when people act like they have no control over their behavior choices because "feelings." Having some feelings about something doesn't mean it is "destiny" or something. Jeez. Being overwhelmed by feelings and making bad choices? That might be an explanation but it is not an excuse. We are not children. Galagirl
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That's true. That is an option and should always be considered. Personally, that's what I wish should have happened, but there are people, my wife included, act as though saying nothing, is a form of denying who they are. And then of course, you get the "I've said nothing for years, I 'needed' to get this out".


Galagirl[/QUOTE]
That's emotional blackmail /manipulation to me. Love is shared. It does not have to be "proven."

If my lover wants to have another lover, I can accept that. But I don't have to automatically consent to be in an Open relationship because of they want something.

Or consent to "prove" that I love this partner. My consent belongs to me.

It is possible for me to both love someone, AND accept that they want something else for a relationship model now AND still not want to go along with that new model. It's ok for me to decline the offer.

Not everything is "either / or."

Some things are "both /and."

Galagirl[/QUOTE]

And that's what I ran into. Apparently, she had some conversations with other friends about that, and I guess it made sense to her... Where, my lover for her means that I accept it. But again.. I think that her perception of acceptance looked a lot different than mine.
 
Tinwen said:
I'd better like know immediatelly though, so that I can protect my sexual health and make decisions. Also, it's a make or break moment, but I think getting over it strenghtens the relationship (as problems have to be solved), while secrets don't.
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That's very true. And while sexual health is important, I generally don't like to use that as the issue. Everyone could be clean as a whistle, and I'm still not down with the idea. Often times, making sure everyone of free of STDs & ensuring against pregnancy are just seen as negotiating points.
 
FallenAngelina said:
I think that is highly unusual. Most people don't expect that their partner/spouse would be anywhere near accepting of the relationship, and that's why affairs are secret. Affairs and lovers are historically accepted as part of life. Private, secret love has always been and always will be so long as we have social expectations and the reality that love just cannot be controlled. I'm not advocating for any particular response to this, I'm just pointing out that secret love (and OK, lust) exists in every culture that has ever existed and it's not because people are "weak" or wrong but because people try to maintain social stability when Love comes calling. I think that open polyamory (as opposed to poly-fi) is the most win-win approach to all of this, but I'm in the vast minority. Most people think that being "honest" and open about lovers is disrespectful, nuts and they'd just rather not even have to think about it - even though "most people" are well aware that this goes on. A lot.
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It may be unusual... Unfortunately, in my case, it's what happened. Especially after talking to a couple of her friends about it. Hell, she even managed to convince our 20 year old (at the time) daughter that I ought to "be accepting of who (she is)"

As for me, I am very aware that this goes on in society. And honestly, I don't give much concern to whether it's the vast minority, or average, or even the majority. I know how I feel about it, and I know what's right for me. It's not a sacrifice I have ever been willing to make, and I've been crystal clear to the point of making conversations being unnecessary. I don't speak of all relationships... More power to anyone who can do it btw... But in our case, it was a no brainer that the topic was off the table. It's not that the conversation itself is disrespectful... But when I was adamant that it would devastate me, then to consider that I might be on board with it to me is disrespectful. But I know I'm kind of the rare one on this side of the spectrum.
 
CTF said:
I know what's right for me. It's not a sacrifice I have ever been willing to make, and I've been crystal clear to the point of making conversations being unnecessary.
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You don't ever have to roll over and accept something that is intollerable to you. So I ask to understand and hopefully for your own clarification: If your wife broke your one ironclad rule (developing feelings for another) then why are you still in the marriage?
 
CTF said:
I generally don't like to use that as the issue. Everyone could be clean as a whistle, and I'm still not down with the idea. Often times, making sure everyone of free of STDs & ensuring against pregnancy are just seen as negotiating points.
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There are bigger problems with infidelity of course.
When considering open, to me, sexual health indeed is a negotiation point.
And, yes, I know already. No open to for you :)
 
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