Broken Rules...Feelings of trust gone

M

Momof4

New member
Hey Everyone,
My husband and I are in an "open relationship" right now with talk of "if it turns to a poly situation how would we feel, would that be ok.?" We both agreed that for now we were going to keep it just "open" and if it turned into poly down the road we were not opposed to the idea. We've talked for a LONG time about him finding another woman to bring into the relationship to enhance our relationship and family dynamic. My husband is more of a "dominant" person in bed and really wants a submissive person in bed. I am not that person. We've been together 15 years, Married for 13, have 4 kids together, etc, etc. Divorce has never been brought up, just bringing in another female who IS what he is looking for in the bedroom and mesh's well with our family.

That brings us to my situation. He has been looking for this "second lady" for a while now. The whole time we've talked about what we were looking for, what we wanted, expected, rules, etc. We discussed and agreed that anything that happened between the two of them (sexual) would be either audio or video recorded. You might ask why, and I'll tell you. That was part of what "I" got out of this. I would get to see him being pleasured and him pleasuring her and it would help our personal marriage out, as that's something that has always turned me on. Also the rule was there would be no "dating" unless there was an end game. He wasn't going to go out twice a week or more with women leaving me home with the kids and him woo'ing them and doing the whole wine and dine bit. The last rule was protection of course during any sexual penetration even though he has had a vasectomy.

So last night he set up a meet with this girl he's been talking to for a few weeks. We talked about her together and thought she would be a good fit if it worked out. He left our son's baseball practice last night early to go meet her. He was gone for almost 5 hours. 5 HOURS. He came home and said they went to dinner and the wait was 40 min (on a thursday evening?) and that they just basically talked the whole time about "nothing really". He then told me they got back in my van after dinner where she gave him a blowjob and then they had sex. Unprotected. And of the hour of "sexual activity" he came home with 9 broken up minutes of audio.

I asked him what in the world would make him trust her enough in 3 hours that he would have unprotected sex with her, and his response was "I believed she was telling me the truth in what she was saying." And as for the recording he told me "I got tired of recording, so I stopped"

So not only was 1 rule broken, but I feel like 2 were VERY broken, and one was lightly broken (wine and dine - he spent almost $100.00 last night).

Not exactly any consequences either. I even asked him "so you broke the rules and there is no punishment...great." But I couldn't even think of a punishment that I could even impose. I told him I felt like he was thinking with his penis and didn't care about my feelings or the rules we set forth. I don't want him to stop seeing her, but I don't want to feel this way everytime he comes home (not being able to trust that he followed our rules).

Any advice?
Thanks!
 
There's a lot going on here, but a few things stand out for me. I hear that you feel like trust has been broken. He broke some of your and his rules about sex and dating. Maybe it would help to break them down:

1) No unprotected sex. That's a big one for me and is an important boundary for many in poly relationships. I had this boundary broken by my husband when he was with his girlfriend for the first time, and it crushed me. Made me feel like I wasn't special anymore. After lots of processing, we decided that it was the result of two things - his NRE and not thinking it was a bit deal because he too believed that she was STI-free AND my problem with not setting a clear, firm boundary with him (we had discussed it, but I should have been more clear) from the get-go. You could decide that you don't trust his ability to have protected sex and go back to using protection with him. You could ask him to get an STI test and confirm that he has none before returning to sex without protection. You need to talk with him more about what you'd like (e.g., protection always) and the result of him not following this in the future (e.g., using protection with him if he cannot stay safe). I also needed to spend a lot of time processing how I didn't feel special anymore and overcome that. Sex health is a valid concern.

2) He was supposed to video or audio record himself with another woman for your pleasure. First of all, please tell me that she was aware of this and knew it would be shared with you. It feels like a major breach of privacy if not, and I would personally not agree to that rule as your husband OR his partner. What do you get out of all of this? A loving relationship with your husband, acceptance of him as an individual. If this is not enough for you, I do worry that polyshipping may not be a great path for you two. If you feel like you need something from him being with another woman, then maybe you are looking for more shared threesomes and swinging vs. polyshipping.

3) The wine and dine. I'm not sure what you mean here - that he's not supposed to go on dates? That he's not supposed to spend time talking with others? Are you hoping he simply has a fuck buddy, and if so, what about that makes it easier for you? I'm also hearing that you are particularly frustrated by him leaving you to take care of the kids - can you ask him for time when you can go off and do things with friends when he watches the kids?

I think it would be helpful to do some reading on polyshipping vs. swinging vs. open relationships. I've heard these books: Opening Up and More Than Two, are especially useful for people who are new to poly. Hoping you can get though this.
 
First of all, please tell me that she was aware of this and knew it would be shared with you. It feels like a major breach of privacy if not, and I would personally not agree to that rule as your husband OR his partner.

Yes of COURSE she was aware of this and consented. If she hadn't it wouldn't have happened. He had someone else who said no to that and because they said no it if anything had happened there wouldn't have been. I'm not a creep :)

3) The wine and dine. I'm not sure what you mean here - that he's not supposed to go on dates? That he's not supposed to spend time talking with others?

What I mean by that is that he isn't out having "fun" and galavanting around town spending money on a bunch of women he's dating with no intents of making them a regular thing. He spent $100.00 on one night. If he goes out 2-3 times a week you're looking at 200-300 a week just to take this girl to dinner and talk. I feel that is very unfair as that amount of money isn't something we as a family can do.

I think it would be helpful to do some reading on polyshipping vs. swinging vs. open relationships. I've heard these books: Opening Up and More Than Two, are especially useful for people who are new to poly. Hoping you can get though this.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. That's why I said in my post that we are right now more of an open or one sided swinging relationship with talks of poly in the future.
 
I do not think of "punishment" but a "natural consequence." He had unprotected sex with a stranger. He goes get tested, no sex with you without condoms or at all til it comes back clean. That is for physical health. Applies in both open and swinging as well. The is not special to poly. What are his safer sex practices before with other people? Sheesh.

I am not sure what you guys want to do about about the other things like broken trust or broken agreements. FWIW? I think...

1) It may be that this audio/video agreement is nice in theory but awkward in practice. Could update that one.

2) The "wine and dine" thing? Maybe you want some of that too? Bottom line though is that dating takes money. Either dating you or others. You guys may have to reorganize the budget so both of you have an allowance for socializing or hobbies that do not affect the house account. Not possible at this time? Budget too tight? Date on the cheap or accept cannot afford to poly date right now. It is what it is. Resources are limited- time, energy, effort, money, distance, ability to travel, etc.

3) Maybe agreement was too vague "if it works out?" For who? When? I think maybe you guys did not talk enough. You left it to his discretion, maybe thinking he goes at your speed. It was good enough for him so he went there. Different speed.

I am sorry you deal in this. :( Could take at time out and sort it out. Maybe these help?

http://openingup.net/resources/free-downloads-from-opening-up/

http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/downloadabledocuments.html

http://www.kathylabriola.com/articles

Could get clearer on what model you guys want to change to in future if going from an open/swinging context to a polyamorous one.

http://www.kathylabriola.com/articles/models-of-open-relationships

Galagirl
 
Last edited:
GalaGirl said:
I do not think of "punishment" but a "natural consequence." He had unprotected sex with a stranger. He goes get tested, no sex with you without condoms or at all til it comes back clean. That is for physical health. Applies in both open and swinging as well. The is not special to poly. What are his safer sex practices before with other people? Sheesh.

I am not sure what you guys want to do about about the other things like broken trust or broken agreements. FWIW? I think...

1) It may be that this audio/video agreement is nice in theory but awkward in practice. Could update that one.

2) The "wine and dine" thing? Maybe you want some of that too? Bottom line though is that dating takes money. Either dating you or others. You guys may have to reorganize the budget so both of you have an allowance for socializing or hobbies that do not affect the house account. Not possible at this time? Budget too tight? Date on the cheap or accept cannot afford to poly date right now. It is what it is. Resources are limited- time, energy, effort, money, distance, ability to travel, etc.

3) Maybe agreement was too vague "if it works out?" For who? When? I think maybe you guys did not talk enough. You left it to his discretion, maybe thinking he goes at your speed. It was good enough for him so he went there. Different speed.

I am sorry you deal in this. :( Could take at time out and sort it out. Maybe these help?

http://openingup.net/resources/free-downloads-from-opening-up/

http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/downloadabledocuments.html

http://www.kathylabriola.com/articles

Could get clearer on what model you guys want to change to in future if going from an open/swinging context to a polyamorous one.

http://www.kathylabriola.com/articles/models-of-open-relationships

Galagirl
Click to expand...

Thank you. I had told him at one point "I trust your judgement" which I think was wrong looking back, because obviously his judgement can't be trusted on certain issues.

As for the "good in theory" part of your comment. I was thinking the same thing. Revisions need to be made.

Thanks for the links!
 
Momof4 said:
We've talked for a LONG time about him finding another woman to bring into the relationship to enhance our relationship and family dynamic. My husband is more of a "dominant" person in bed and really wants a submissive person in bed. I am not that person. ... Divorce has never been brought up, just bringing in another female who IS what he is looking for in the bedroom and mesh's well with our family.

We discussed and agreed that anything that happened between the two of them (sexual) would be either audio or video recorded.... That was part of what "I" got out of this. I would get to see him being pleasured and him pleasuring her and it would help our personal marriage out....
Click to expand...

People wear make up to enhance their looks, or get a better set of golf clubs to enhance their game. They go to marriage encounters or buy toys for the bedroom to enhance their marriage. Everything you say leads me to feel you're out shopping for a new toy...to enhance your marriage...to give him what he wants in bed...to give you a thrill...the two of you have discussed it.

What do the two of you have to offer to this hypothetical woman who's going to meet all of the above criteria and do all of that for the two of you? Is she going to have a nice shelf to sit quietly on when she's not needed or wanted?

What if she wants to record the two of you in bed because that's what gives her a thrill? What if she has some limitations on how much he can wine and dine you? Or how long he's allowed to be out to dinner with you? Or is she expected to know her place and realize she's just the new toy there to serve the two of you and enhance your lives and your marriage?
 
Last edited:
I had told him at one point "I trust your judgement" which I think was wrong looking back, because obviously his judgement can't be trusted on certain issues.
Click to expand...

Trusted to accomplish what?

I could be wrong. But I think you might mean "At this time, I cannot automatically trust that his judgement of a situation will work for sex health practices or general safety if he's going to choose to have sex bareback with strangers."

Could articulate all the way out.

I am glad to read you plan to talk revisions. Sounds like you both could better define those boundaries and agreements. I just also wanted to lift up that maybe in your talks, you guys could also talk about how you communicate to each other. Less assuming, more laying all the way out specifically.

You could solve this one. But if the way you talk to each other doesn't ALSO change? Down the road you could stumble upon another case of "We didn't think/talk this all the way out. Assumed things."

Could accept there's a certain level of things you can only learn by doing, because it cannot all be in theory. And figure out how you guys prefer to problem solve and deal in conflict resolution. Remember that if any of his dating partners become more than just a few dates they too will have their own preferences that need to be heard. They might ask for their own agreements.

Changing toward a poly model will take more work.

HTH!
Galagirl
 
Last edited:
WhatHappened said:
People wear make up to enhance their looks, or get a better set of golf clubs to enhance their game. They go to marriage encounters or buy toys for the bedroom to enhance their marriage. Everything you say leads me to feel you're out shopping for a new toy...to enhance your marriage...to give him what we wants in bed...to give you a thrill...the two of you have discussed it.

What do the two of you have to offer to this hypothetical woman who's going to meet all of the above criteria and do all of that for the two of you? Is she going to have a nice shelf to sit quietly on when she's not needed or wanted?

What if she wants to record the two of you in bed because that's what gives her a thrill? What if she has some limitations on how much he can wine and dine you? Or how long he's allowed to be out to dinner with you? Or is she expected to know her place and realize she's just the new toy there to serve the two of you and enhance your lives and your marriage?
Click to expand...
Amen
 
First off, please understand that I may be harsh, but you ARE coming to a poly community and not a swinging one.

Your rules are fine for swinging...mostly. If you want him to only have casual hookups, that's great. But any woman who is into that is going to want to be wined and dined first. There are plenty of men who will spend a lot of money on a one night stand and truly give her a fun experience, a fantastic new restaurant, a night at the clubs, strip clubs, maybe, or whatever. But, yes, that costs money.

Your rules are terrible for poly. I would want nothing to do with something like that...and few poly women would. Especially those who have experienced a healthy poly relationship where they are treated as people.

I don't need $100 in a night. I'm perfectly happy ordering Chinese and watching a show we both like, and then falling asleep together. (Because he had kids, most nights he spent with his OSO. But the nights the kids were at their grandparents, he stayed with me.) But while I don't need a lot of wining and dining; I do need autonomy in my relationship with him. I would absolutely not be comfortable with being forced to send a stranger naked pictures of myself.

Being poly isn't just about "getting" something from the other person. It's about both of you enjoying yourself the way you want and helping each other be as happy as possible.
 
Last edited:
So I hear that this is a swinging relationship, which might have very different rules/boundaries than a poly relationship. I have minimal knowledge of the swinging world, but I wonder if you and he could go to a swing club to get your feet wet. I would guess that the focus would be more on sex and less on dating/relationships. You might find some individuals/couples who are open to being sexual with your husband while you watched, if you didn't want to join in. Maybe you could look up swinging meet-ups in your area? Are there swinging sites that could help get you connected?

Outside of that, what sounds incompatible to me is that you are okay with your husband having a purely sexual relationship as a "regular thing," but he needs to date women to find someone that he is interested seeing on a regular basis. Glad to hear that she consented to the audio-recording beforehand (knowing you'd watch it for your own enjoyment), but it still leaves me with an uncomfortable, stomach turning feeling. Some of your phrasing around your husband's dating made it feel like you were treating the woman like an object, like some "thing" that's only around to improve your marriage, and that you are only supportive of your husband's relationship with her because you "get" something from it. That's really contradictory to the concept of loving multiple partners, so I think that's where the push-back is coming from. I've heard horror stories from people on this site about how they were treated as "less than" by their partner's partner (metamour) and tossed away when the metamour or couple decided to. She's a person too...

Candiedlove said:
Being poly isn't just about "getting" something from the other person. It's about both of you enjoying yourself the way you want and helping each other be as happy as possible.
Click to expand...

I completely agree.
 
Honestly, your rules made me feel a little sick. Any woman willing to agree to them would have to have absolutely no self-esteem. You are using people for your own gratification, to "enhance" your marriage. Requiring video/audio? Jesus. That, plus not allowing any real dates assures you will never find a quality woman. Is that why you set up the rules that way? You don't really want to be polyamorous or love anyone else? You want a live sex toy.

Safe sex is a smart rule. The rest of the rules you've stated are just you trying to control your husband and whatever poor, desperate woman agrees to get into bed with him. Your setting this up so that it will only ever be super-casual sex without any real connection.
 
LoveBunny said:
whatever poor, desperate woman agrees to get into bed with him
Click to expand...

Well, that's not exactly true. If my husband and I are swingers, that could be a fun thrill for us. I get almost nothing, but, hey, I'm also not really interested in giving very much.

But you're right in that those rules are gonna drive away any poly women.
 
@CandiedLove
If my husband and I are swingers, that could be a fun thrill for us.
Click to expand...

I might be mistaken, but based on this thread it sounds to me like this poster and her husband would not be interested in having another woman's husband involved. I wonder if they would allow the other woman to keep a copy of the video. If so, I suppose you're right, they might attract an exhibitionist.
 
Hi Momof4,

I know from your previous posts that trust is an issue between you, and that you guys opened up your relationship after you discovered that Hubby had been searching for sex partners online, which he said was just research. This combined with the broken guidelines in your current post tell me that two things are happening:

1. Your husband is possibly disconnecting from you and is slipping into fantasy/single man mode.
2. Your guidelines aren't working.

To address point 1, I'm hearing that you've both broadcast your messages, but they are conflicting.

Your message:
"I'm willing to let you have this to please YOU, please ME, and enhance OUR marriage." "What's in this for ME is getting off on your pleasure through audio/video recordings."

How I interpret this:
"I want you to feel connected to me when you have sex with others." "I don't want you to disconnect with me. Recording your sexual activity with others helps me to feel that you are doing this with me in mind." "I want more togetherness."


Hubby's message:
"I was researching non-monogamy on my own first." "My sex with others is for ME." "Sex with others is DIFFERENT to how it is with you. I like that." "I got tired of recording it."

How I interpret this:
"I want to experience this for MYSELF." "Recording it for YOU is an afterthought for ME. When I'm with someone else, you might enter my mind, but you are not the primary thing on my mind." "I want more freedom."

Honestly, I'd have an open, honest, loving, and frank conversation about what you both want from this. It sounds like you are hearing each other's messages but neither of you are ready to truly listen to them. Sure, you can adjust your guidelines, but you also have to address any underlying issues.

Sometimes the self-serving side of us takes hold. We can be greedy, pleasure-seeking, selfish creatures. When this happens, it is good to practice forgiveness. It would be good if your husband could take responsibility for what has happened and agree to work with you to create a more mutually-beneficial arrangement. You should also take responsibility for any part you have played. We must always look to ourselves and check our own behaviour. For instance, do you often allow Hubby to cross your boundaries without consequence? Are you good at asserting your needs? Are you a fair communicator? Have you imposed rules and dictated how things are going to go? What could you do differently?

So, onto point 2: your guidelines.

I believe that if your relationship model is going to include guidelines, it is crucial to make these guidelines extremely specific. This will take time, learning, and trial-and-error! You are both in the early stages of learning, and you are here seeking constructive advice - this is great!

The guidelines MUST be agreed on by *both* of you. This is not a dictatorship. This means that Hubby needs to be *absolutely* honest about his desires too. If you can't agree on something, a compromise is needed. You can also agree to keep these guidelines in place until a set review period - 3 months, 6 months, a year, etc.

So, let's look at guidelines:

Open to poly?
Decide what this means. This is ambiguous. This leaves room for Hubby to start emotionally connecting to someone. That could leave room for Hubby to emotionally connect in secret. That could lead to you stumbling across "I love you" texts some day, and feeling betrayed. So, pick one of two avenues:

1. Currently not open to poly. May review after X months?
It is possible to avoid emotional connection, but steps have to be taken. For instance, no hand-holding, no cuddling (except for him giving aftercare to his submissive play partner). It means that when Hubby or the other woman start to feel attached, they have to break it off. It means that Hubby should try to pick women he feels he is emotionally incompatible with.

2. Open to poly.
This means accepting that Hubby could fall for someone, and agreeing on what to do if/when this happens. This means agreeing that Hubby should tell you if/when he's starting to get attached. Hubby should definitely tell you when he falls in love, or when his play partner expresses that she loves him. This means doing what you can to help your husband feel safe to come to you if/when he gets attached. This doesn't have to mean "we want to be poly" - it means "we accept that love could happen, and we commit to being open and honest if it does".

Once you've both decided on the above, look at the specifics. Your requests for Hubby's external sex life not to damage your marriage, finances, or family life are quite reasonable.

If you haven't already done this, I'd sit down and write out a list of guidelines. Make sure you both have a copy you can refer to regularly. It can also help to each have a copy on your mobile phone, so that the guidelines can be looked at in tricky situations.

Time:
How many dates per week?
How many hours can each date last?
What if something comes up during the date and Hubby wants to extend the timeframe in that moment?

Money:
Maximum amount to be spent on dates per month?

Seriously, set an allowance. This isn't a control thing, this is a responsibility thing. If he wants to blow $100 in one night and the monthly budget is $200, he'll have to have cheap dates for the rest of the month. If he wants to wine and dine his other women, he'll have to take a second job to fund it.

Family life:
No leaving family events (kids' baseball games, etc.) early?
Anything else?

Safe sex:
How regularly should he be tested?
Will you have sex with him after he's had unprotected sex with someone?
Does he have to see a physical copy of his sex partners' latest STI test prior to having sex with her? Does the same apply to oral sex?
Is it ever ok to have unprotected penetrative sex? What about oral sex?

Recording:
Does he still have to record his play sessions?

Consequences:
What will happen if he ever has unprotected sex with someone else again?
What are Hubby's deal-breakers? What are yours?
What will happen if you ever find out he's lied to you or broken a guideline?
 
Last edited:
There were already guidelines, rules, and agreements. He already broke them. What good is it going to do to set yet more guidelines, rules, and agreements?
 
LoveBunny said:
@CandiedLove

I might be mistaken, but based on this thread it sounds to me like this poster and her husband would not be interested in having another woman's husband involved. I wonder if they would allow the other woman to keep a copy of the video. If so, I suppose you're right, they might attract an exhibitionist.
Click to expand...

I mean, I can't tell you for sure, but the OP sure sounds like the swinger/open relationship type (which may or may not involve the other woman's husband). I don't think this sounds like a poly relationship at all.
 
WhatHappened said:
There were already guidelines, rules, and agreements. He already broke them. What good is it going to do to set yet more guidelines, rules, and agreements?
Click to expand...

I do see what you are saying, WhatHappened, and I agree in some part with your point. :) It could be that Hubby simply doesn't want to adhere to any guidelines, and will break any agreements that are made. However, if this is the case, where does this leave them?

Perhaps I'm being too black and white about this, but I feel like there are only two options in this case: deem the violation as unforgivable and get a divorce; or forgive the violation as a first-time fuck-up and work towards something they are both happy with.

It's not so much that I believe they should introduce *more* guidelines so much as have more effective guidelines, if they are going to have guidelines at all. The other alternative is for the OP to drop the majority of the guidelines, but then they could head into polyamorous territory, which the OP says they aren't currently practicing or actively wishing to practice.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top