Can I do this?

S

saltedpaper

New member
Hi everybody -

We have a poly N configuration.
(Karen + [Drew) + {Meg] + Rick}

Karen isn't really part of this story as she and Drew have a long, strong, respectful, communicative relationship. It's mainly this part:
[Drew + {Meg] + Rick}
I'm Drew

Drew and Meg have been seeing each other (she was single, only mono experience) for two and a half years. Meg met Rick about 2 years ago. He was also only mono previously, knew about Meg and Drew and said he had long thought non-monogamy was something he wanted to try.

Drew and Rick have quite few friends in common and have been socially friendly for more than five years. Drew vouched for Rick when Meg and Rick met. Early this year Drew asked Rick out for beer and we discussed the situation and Drew came away feeling that we were all on the same page to try to make all the relationships work.

Rick is an attractive, talented, friendly, fun-loving guy. It also turns out he's jealous, manipulative and emotionally abusive. Rick preys on Meg's insecurities, especially where she conflates her sexuality with her self worth.

Rick has convinced Meg to block out 5 nights a week now so he can see her for 2 and have enough space between her seeing Drew and and him so Rick can feel confident Drew's cooties have dissipated.

Currently Meg and Drew are not having sex. Drew wants to show Meg that he values her well beyond her sex and is all-in in this experiment. Rick has already expressed that he will be uncomfortable with Drew in Meg's life even as a friend.

Rick resists reading about polyamory, going to munches or any other way of learning.

For most of these 2 years I have kept my mouth shut other than to say I support Meg and Rick's relationship as long as she wants to be in it. Her words to me say that she is uncomfortable with the manipulation and abuse (my words, her descriptions.)

So recently I have opened up and told Meg what I see. My experiences wresting with jealousy and what it takes, what is in store if she sticks around with Rick even, if, in the best case, that he starts to educate himself right now.

I have expressed to Meg that I don't think this set of relationships is sustainable. We love each other, we have been very good for each other, we acknowledge and express that to each other. My relationship with Karen is strong enough to include Meg.

It seems either Rick or I have to go. If I go I will likely lose both my lover and my friend.

So, can I say this: Can I ask Rick out for beer and call him on his manipulation and emotional abuse? Can I offer my experiences with jealousy? Is there a way to work with him so that we can all be working together to make these relationships work?

What can I say to Meg? What's off limits?

Thank you
 
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I can see why this is really stressful and confusing. So many moving parts and emotions tied in. I hope I can help. I know having people you love in bad relationships is heartbreaking and stressful.

saltedpaper said:
[Drew + {Meg] + Rick}
I'm Drew

Drew and Meg have been seeing each other (she was single, only mono experience) for two and a half years. Meg met Rick about 2 years ago. He was also only mono previously, knew about Meg and Drew and said he had long thought non-monogamy was something he wanted to try.
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IN those 2.5 years have they ever discussed going back to mono? Have they ever talked about, if he's uncomfortable with it, is he willing to be a mono in a poly relationship?

Drew and Rick have quite few friends in common and have been socially friendly for more than five years. Drew vouched for Rick when Meg and Rick met. Early this year Drew asked Rick out for beer and we discussed the situation and Drew came away feeling that we were all on the same page to try to make all the relationships work.
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Okay, the 3rd person is throwing me off so if I'm mistaken please correct me.

You vouched for Rick at the start because you've known him for 5 years?

Rick preys on Meg's insecurities, especially where she conflates her sexuality with her self worth.
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Can you elaborate on this interaction? Have you seen it? What has Meg told you?

Rick has convinced Meg to block out 5 nights a week now so he can see her for 2 and have enough space between her seeing Drew and and him so Rick can feel confident Drew's cooties have dissipated. [/quote]

Currently Meg and Drew are not having sex. Drew wants to show Meg that he values her well beyond her sex and is all-in in this experiment. Rick has already expressed that he will be uncomfortable with Drew in Meg's life even as a friend.

Rick resists reading about polyamory, going to munches or any other way of learning.

For most of these 2 years I have kept my mouth shut other than to say I support Meg and Rick's relationship as long as she wants to be in it. Her words to me say that she is uncomfortable with the manipulation and abuse (my words, her descriptions.)

So recently I have opened up and told Meg what I see. My experiences wresting with jealousy and what it takes, what is in store if she sticks around with Rick even, if, in the best case, that he starts to educate himself right now.

I have expressed to Meg that I don't think this set of relationships is sustainable. We love each other, we have been very good for each other, we acknowledge and express that to each other. My relationship with Karen is strong enough to include Meg.

It seems either Rick or I have to go. If I go I will likely lose both my lover and my friend.
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I think this is one of the main things you have to stick to.

Can I ask Rick out for beer and call him on his manipulation and emotional abuse? Can I offer my experiences with jealousy? Is there a way to work with him so that we can all be working together to make these relationships work?

What can I say to Meg? What's off limits?
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I would ask Meg if she would like you to have a sit down with Rick. Afterall, she is the one who would suffer most if it went wrong. Really talk about it, what may happen.
And tell her this; tell her you can't see you and Rick and her coexisting in this relationship. Don't phrase it as an ultimatum, but like "Rick's behaviour is making our relationship strained and adds stress to your life as well. I am not sure I'll be able to be comfortable having him as a meta. I want to protect you, but also myself, from emotional and mental harm." type of idea (I didn't phrase it as well as I thought I would), and just tell her that, if her relationship with him continues, you may not be able to continue your relationship with her.
It probably would mean also losing Rick as a friend...but if this is how he treats romantic partners why would you even want to be his friend?

Again, I'd avoid an ultimatum type discussion. Don't set limits for her but for yourself and what you're comfortable with. If you are not comfortable having Rick as a meta say so, and be sure to communicate that you're not trying to force her hand; that you love her, but that you can't stay in a relationship that is making you feel unhappy. And a Meta relationship is a relationship.

Also, if she says yes to you having a talk night with Rick, I would not do it at a bar or around alcohol. Alcohol makes no one smarter, and public makes no one more reasonable. I don't think talking with him as a whole is bad; but you want to make sure that Meg is okay with it as well.
 
I don't think this is an issue where you should get involved; it doesn't directly affect you at all. It's a [Meg + Rick] issue.

As long as she's willing to tolerate and allow the behaviour, whether or not she expresses discomfort with it to you, then it's going to continue.

All I think you can really do is remove yourself from the situation if you aren't happy, or else ask Meg not to discuss issues with Rick, with you. Have her focus only on your relationship during your time together. This sounds like a leaky hinge letting mess drip over from one relationship to the other, and that's not a good thing.
 
Hi saltedpaper,

It sounds to me like Rick doesn't really want you to be involved with Meg, not even as a friend. This says to me that it is Rick, not Drew, who is making Meg choose. You have already been pushed into the friend zone. Now Rick is trying to push you the rest of the way out. The tools he is using to accomplish this, are, manipulation and abuse. These are his choices, not yours. You would be willing to have everybody just coexist and get along. Rick doesn't want that.

You can of course try to continue as Meg's friend, maybe you can do that for awhile. But I have a suspicion that Rick will push you the rest of the way out eventually. He will win because he is using unfair tools, abuse and manipulation, to his advantage. Because you're not using those tools (and well you shouldn't), you'll eventually be pushed out. You can speed that process up and get out now, or you can wait and make it take as long as possible. Your choice.

If you want, I believe you can ask Rick out for beer and call him on his manipulation and abuse. Perhaps he is doing it subconsciously, and isn't aware of it. Your pointing it out to him may help him realize what he is doing. Or maybe he knows what he's doing, and just doesn't think you would call him on it. If you do call him on it, that might shake him up and make him realize that he needs to stop doing it. Or he may take it personally, and escalate his behaviors.

Another route you can take is to talk to Meg about the situation. Explain to her that she is letting Rick push her around. Hopefully she'll then take the steps necessary to call him on it, and make him stop. Technically there are no limits on what you can say to her, however you should try to tell her in such a way that she won't react defensively and break up with you completely. It is a sensitive situation, highly dependent on whom you talk to, and how you talk to them.

In any case I don't think you are causing the situation. You have been more than reasonable considering the circumstances. I know you want to solve the situation amicably. Try to determine whether Rick is willing to work with you on this. You have been socially friendly with him for over five years; surely he would not just throw that away. The fact that you are inquiring on this forum, shows that you have good intentions. I hope you can find a way to work this out.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
I'm sorry you struggle. I can see where you don't want to intrude. But at the same time... now here's manipulation and abuse stuff. You don't want your partner being hurt like that. Saying NOTHING is not good for anyone.

I think you can be honest with Meg. Speak your truth from where you are at.

You can say the main stuff from what you posted. I quote just to visually block it off.

"Meg, I'm worried. For most of these 2 years I have kept my mouth shut other than to say I support you and Rick's relationship as long as you want to be in it. Now you've been telling me you are uncomfortable with the manipulation and abuse Rock puts you through. That is not ok. I have to speak up.

How can I help you here? Are you wanting to vent? Wanting to end things with Rick? Something else?

For myself? I've already clocked 2 years giving it time to settle in. I observe it going nowhere. Rick said one thing at the start that he wanted to do poly. But in the end? Rick doesn't actually want me around in your life at all, and he doesn't want to actually do the work of reading about poly and so on.

I signed up and agreed to be in an N... when it turns out that there's not really going to be an N thing here. And now some abusive sounding things which I do not think is ok. I don't think this set of relationships is sustainable or healthy like this. I only want healthy relationships in my life. I hope you want that too.

We love each other, we have been very good for each other, we acknowledge and express that to each other. My relationship with Karen is strong enough to include you, Meg. But the the (Meg + Rick) relationship does NOT have space to include me. It seems either Rick or I have to go.

  • I hate that the choice has to be (me participating in a wonky polyship and turning a blind eye to abuse which I don't like).
  • Or (me bowing out and maybe losing my friend and lover which I also don't like.)

But I don't want to clock MORE time like this doing wonky. I'm also worried about you.

I love you a whole lot. But not even for you will I hang around with an unhealthy/abusive sounding guy in my poly network. Doing that will hurt me. It seems to be hurting you.

So with regrets, I have to tell you that I have to bow out of this and let the chips fall where they may.

  • If you continue with Rick, I cannot stop you. I hope I am wrong and I wish you well and hope things get better for you. That the hurting stops.
  • If you need help to get, out, I can try to help. I don't want to be anywhere near Rick, but if you need help to get out, you can call. I will try.
  • If you free to poly date me again in future, I would be up for us trying again. Look me up.

But to keep on like THIS indefinitely? I don't want to do that any more. I am at limit. I had to make you aware. Thank you for listening. "
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In your shoes I would be super honest and tell her all that and stop beating around the bush.

Call it what it is, state where you are/are not comfortable. Then move it forward so you CAN be doing better at least just for you.

Hopefully Meg decides to do her own soul searching and assessment. Comes to similar decision. That abuse weird from Rick is NOT ok and that Rick is not healthy to be around right now.

So, can I say this: Can I ask Rick out for beer and call him on his manipulation and emotional abuse? Can I offer my experiences with jealousy? Is there a way to work with him so that we can all be working together to make these relationships work?
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Me? I would not bother with this.

If the dude is abusive/manipulative and that way of going works for him? Why would he change? :confused:

For what? :confused:

What can I say to Meg? What's off limits?
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Speak your truth.

State where you stand. Get YOU out of the hinky. If she wants to get off the Bus too? Help her get off. If she wants to keep on riding the Bus with Rick? That's her choice. You cannot MAKE her do stuff.

But YOU can choose where YOU spend your time.

I can only imagine how tough it must feel. :(

Yet the actions are straight forward. You don't like riding this wonky bus any more? Get off the bus.

Because this isn't like newbie turbulence. This is 2 years of wonky with the manipulation and abuse on the side. Letting that limp along? Just leaves Meg (and you) in a bad space. Mostly it just enables Rick to keep on behaving badly toward Meg.

Rick is just NOT the guy you thought he was. :(

If she needs it, there's things to read at

https://speakoutloud.net/articles

http://stoprelationshipabuse.org/help/develop-a-safety-plan/

http://www.ncdsv.org/images/DV_Safety_Plan.pdf

https://www.dvrc-or.org/safety-planning/

She can google others.

For you? You can look https://speakoutloud.net/articles also. Esp the "how to support" articles sort of in the middle describing the stages. Each one has tips for family and friends at the bottom for how they can help the person at that stage.

Keep in mind that cutting off the person from family and friends is a tactic abusers will do. Then the person doesn't have other people telling them how weird things are getting, and it also cuts them off from help in leaving.

That doesn't mean YOU have to keep hanging with Rick or keep dating Meg if this poly is all wonky.

But you CAN tell Meg she can call you for help. Then proceed to get you OUT of the main line of fire. Sometimes that's the wake up call. When others distance. Sometimes not, but sometimes yes.

Galagirl
 
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Thanks

Thanks for all the thoughtful input.

ElMango -
You ask
IN those 2.5 years have they ever discussed going back to mono? Have they ever talked about, if he's uncomfortable with it, is he willing to be a mono in a poly relationship?
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They have and Rick says he is still not sure and "would not ask Meg to give up Drew"

You vouched for Rick at the start because you've known him for 5 years?
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Yes

Regarding Rick preying on Meg's insecurities, especially where she conflates her sexuality with her self worth:
Meg talks about her fear of losing people. When Rick shows displeasure, even disgust, at Meg having shared sex with Drew recently (day or two, maybe 3) he withdraws sexually and emotionally. Meg's response is to create more buffer with Drew so she can give Rick the sex she feels he needs to stay with her. Secondly, Meg is a single mother doing a great job with her 18 year old son, yet insecure about that. Rick has convinced Meg that having Drew stay over at her house the day after him would be bad for the son's development. The son likes me and asks if I'm staying over, then gives me a thumbs-up while waiting for the answer.

I agree with your assessments on ultimatums and alcohol. Thank you very much ElMango.

Viki82:
All I think you can really do is remove yourself from the situation if you aren't happy, or else ask Meg not to discuss issues with Rick, with you. Have her focus only on your relationship during your time together. This sounds like a leaky hinge letting mess drip over from one relationship to the other, and that's not a good thing.
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Sound advice. Thank you

Kevin T. :
I think I see the same writing on the wall as you do. I'm not ready to toss in the towel yet. I'll talk to Meg, and talk to Meg about me talking to Rick.
Thank you

GalaGirl:
Wow. Such care and detail in your response. Thank you. Your comment
If the dude is abusive/manipulative and that way of going works for him? Why would he change?
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is exactly what I've been thinking.

I really appreciate the references. YouTube videos, or even podcasts work better for Meg than reading. Does anyone have videos they like?

Thank you all so much.
 
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