Can Open Relationships Strengthen Rocky Marriages?

[Openandintimate]

Without getting into all the details of my rocky marriage of 20 years together..... has anyone experienced that their open relationship helped you and your spouse grow closer and more intimate? Or is this lifestyle only for those who already have a very strong foundation?

I am the one asking...... I am encouraging my husband to explore another partner to fulfill his emotional intimacy needs. I have huge problems with emotional intimacy. I am hoping that this may help us grow closer together and teach me how to be more intimate with him and selfless in our marriage.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts or experiences you can share...

 

[vinsanity0]

The answer really depends on what is making the marriage rocky. It helped my wife and I but we were very solid on the emotional part.

Opening up exposes every weakness in a marriage. 99% of the time that is a problem.

 

[GalaGirl]

Can Open Relationships Strengthen Rocky Marriages?

I guess they could in the sense that "anything is possible."

What I've seen more often here and in the real world is that open/poly magnifies all the existing cracks/problems in the relationship.

So I think it's better to start from solid foundations because even with strong foundations -- it still may not work out. So why start on a weak foundation? That seems to make the odds of it working out even slimmer.

I am encouraging my husband to explore another partner to fulfill his emotional intimacy needs. I have huge problems with emotional intimacy. I am hoping that this may help us grow closer together and teach me how to be more intimate with him and selfless in our marriage.

If he develops an emotionally intimate relationship with someone else over THERE, that doesn't mean he automatically or magically develops one with you over HERE. You could be left with the same old problems over HERE, plus all this extra stuff now from him having a new relationship over THERE. Then what?

If you are seeking closeness and more emotional intimacy with your partner, why not work on that directly rather than hoping to address it indirectly? Work on that problem together over HERE if you want things to change over HERE.

I'm not too sure about being "selfless" either. To me that is not a virtue. On the continuum, "selfish" and "selfless" are the unbalanced places on the see-saw. The balanced middle place is "self full."

• Selfish = memememe! Everything is about me. Screw other people and their needs. I have no concern for others.
  
• Selfless = themthemthem! Everything is about them! Screw my needs. I have no concern for myself.
  
• Self-full = I meet my own needs first. Then I can gift my help to others in meeting their reasonable and rational needs. Then I'm not burning myself out or spreading myself too thin. I demonstrate concern for me and concern for others in a balanced way.

Self-care is not optional. It is necessary to be healthy.

If you want to be more giving and generous in your marriage than you have in the past -- could do that. But don't be selfless and have no concern for your own health and well-being at all. That's not good. I don't think that is something to aspire to.

Galagirl

 

[Openandintimate]

If you are seeking closeness and more emotional intimacy with your partner, why not work on that directly rather than hoping to address it indirectly? Work on that problem together over HERE if you want things to change over HERE.

Galagirl

We have been together for 20 years, and for most of our
life together I was oblivious to the words intimacy and vulnerability or meeting his needs for that matter. I would spend most of my time doing lots of “partner things” (kids, work, business stuff)... all things that made him feel undesirable as a man. We were not emotionally intimate. Then he ended up having an affair 4 years ago, which he felt terrible about hurting me like that, but he had found something he deeply craved but didn’t really know until the affair. It was like in an instant though, had an open and intimate connection with this woman. It was everything he had ever wanted from me, but didn’t know how to express.

Now 4 years later, I still have a difficult time opening up. I may open up a little bit, but then I get very defensive and attack him when things don’t go my way or I am faced with something that I don’t like about myself. This immeadiately kills any chance at intimacy. It is frustrating for me because I come from a very shallow and closed family upbringing. There was no expression of feelings, no intimacy... so it is very unnatural for me. I feel lost when it comes to building a deeper connection with him. On top of that, when I get defensive and attack him often, he then withdraws to protect himself. And the cycle repeats and repeats and repeats..

I thought that the ultimate gesture of being open and vulnerable would be, if I am not able/unwilling to meet his emotional needs, encouraging him to look to have them met somewhere else (until I figure it out). Plus bringing a third person in to our relationship has been a fantasy of mine..

 

[GalaGirl]

What work have you both done to heal from the cheating? Is any of that still at play here?

From the post, it sounds like he could learn how to articulate his needs on his end of things. If he doesn't know what he needs and he doesn't make any requests of you, is the expectation that you be a mind reader?

I may open up a little bit, but then I get very defensive and attack him when things don’t go my way or I am faced with something that I don’t like about myself. This immeadiately kills any chance at intimacy.

(Attack him) is a behavior choice. Since you recognize your pattern and your triggers... you aren't able to make different behavior choices than (go on the attack)?

When things do not go your way, you are not able to say "Things have not gone my way. I feel like GRRR. I need some space to process all that. I don't want to lash out at you just because I'm mad with X."

When you don't like something about yourself, you are not able to say "I feel upset right now. I don't like X about myself. I need some time
and space to deal with that now."

If you don't know how to say what you feel or what you need, you could use the lists to help you articulate.

Sounds like on your end, you could work on your communication skills. If/when he does make a request, you need to hear it without defensiveness or as a criticism of you. Like if he asks "I feel lonely. I need to feel connection. Could you be willing to give me a hug?" you don't hear it like "You suck at giving hugs, you never give me any." That is making it be about you. You let it be about him and say "Yes" or "No, not at this time" or "How about X instead?"

Or if you request something of him and it doesn't go as hoped, you handle upset emotions appropriately and don't go on the attack.

Here's a basic module on defensive listening.

http://msue.anr.msu.edu/uploads/236/64484/MOD_3_LISTENING_TO_FACE_VOICE_AND_BODY.pdf

Or maybe you both want to look at Non-Violent Communication.

Basic steps are here: http://www.nonviolentcommunication.com/aboutnvc/4partprocess.htm

The most "to the point" book in my opinion is this one: Living Nonviolent Communication: Practical Tools to Connect and Communicate Skillfully in Every Situation

On top of that, when I get defensive and attack him often, he then withdraws to protect himself. And the cycle repeats and repeats and repeats

You seem to recognize the cycle and the triggers. What stops you from making different behavior choices so you can break out of the cycle? Do feelings whoosh up too fast? Or is it that you don't know what other choices to try? Something else? I think a counselor could be better equipped help you sort all that out than random strangers on a board.

I thought that the ultimate gesture of being open and vulnerable would be, if I am not able/unwilling to meet his emotional needs, encouraging him to look to have them met somewhere else (until I figure it out). Plus bringing a third person in to our relationship has been a fantasy of mine.

I see two possible things wrong with that line of thinking.

1) If you cannot handle smaller gestures of being open and vulnerable right now without feeling cringe-y or lashing out, why leap to an "ultimate gesture" as the place to start? If you cannot walk, you don't sign up to run a marathon.

2) Not the job of the third party to "fix" whatever is wrong with the marriage, fulfill your fantasies, or be the "placeholder" while you work on your stuff.

I think showing him that you are starting to work on your communication/anger management skills with a concrete action is starting gesture enough. You tell him you bought a book and made a counseling appointment or... whatever small DOABLE thing you can do right now.

You could show you are trying to BECOME willing and able to meet his emotional needs. Trying to accept him as he is, trying to learn to listen to him share his inner thoughts and feelings with you, trying to learn to share your inner thoughts and feelings with him, etc.

Why not take it baby steps so you increase your odds of success?

It doesn't have to be rolled out "perfect" for your inner thoughts and feelings to be shared. Even (clumsy/awkward sharing) of what is going on with you in your inner thoughts/feelings is better than (lashing out).

I could be wrong, but you sound like you carry a lot of anger. Maybe from the upbringing or maybe from other things and then the upbringing didn't teach you how to cope. I think you could learn how to express healthy anger appropriately so you can feel better and not blow up at your spouse so much.

You could ask a counselor to help you learn these missing communication/emotional articulation skills, help you manage your anger more appropriately than lashing out at people, and if you have issues from childhood/the past to sort out or issues from the cheating affair to sort out -- address those too.

Hang in there!
Galagirl

 

[lunabunny]

I am the one asking...... I am encouraging my husband to explore another partner to fulfill his emotional intimacy needs. I have huge problems with emotional intimacy. I am hoping that this may help us grow closer together and teach me how to be more intimate with him and selfless in our marriage.

Opening the relationship isn't magically going to "fix" your emotional block.

It isn't another lover's "job" to teach you, even by example, how to be more intimate within your OWN relationship with your husband. Nor should it be their responsibility to try. Especially if they're also burdened with the expectation of fulfilling your sexual fantasies, as well as your husband's emotional and physical needs from the get-go.

Uncovering, acknowledging, taking responsibility for your own issues and behaviours is YOUR work to do - preferably with the help of individual and/or couples counselling or other strategies - and a lot of research and self-reflection.

As the others said, there is no guarantee that by suggesting/consenting to your husband getting his sexual and/or emotional needs met elsewhere, it's going to do a darn thing to promote intimacy within YOUR marriage.

At best, it's a bandaid solution. It may take the pressure off somewhat, at least temporarily, and assuage your guilt, but it's not going to get to the heart of what's really going on with you OR between you/husband.

You describe your relationship as rocky due to this guilt and your husband's past infidelity - well polyamory is likely to rock it some more, and maybe up-end the boat completely unless you anchor it with something solid FIRST.

 

[Nox]

It helped my marriage. Kay and I have a very significant extrovert/introvert balance problem. Since I've been able to date, it has allowed me to meet my attention needs that were causing a serious marriage issue.

In addition, it has allowed Kay to join us on outings, which she now enjoys doing more since she can be with us without having to be 100% present the whole time.

 

[lunabunny]

It helped my marriage. Kay and I have a very significant extrovert/introvert balance problem. Since I've been able to date, it has allowed me to meet my attention needs that were causing a serious marriage issue.

In addition, it has allowed Kay to join us on outings, which she now enjoys doing more since she can be with us without having to be 100% present the whole time.

It's great that this situation has worked out so well. You guys do seem to have gotten it together from what I've read.

I admit, I also started a second relationship (with the consent of my existing partner) because Jester wasn't meeting my emotional needs and refused to do anything to rectify the situation for the longest time, yet didn't want to break-up.

In hindsight, I probably wouldn't have gone about it the exact same way, as doing so initially caused a LOT of extra friction and took a looong time to process through all the negative feelings, resentment and jealousy. (And in our case, I never expected my partner/s to share sex with each other to fulfil my fantasies). What I realised eventually was that although Boho was and is meeting MY needs in our little "sphere"... it wasn't a substitute for the love and intimacy I still needed Jester to provide and share with me.

Particularly in situations where there's been cheating, lying or aggressive/abusive behaviours (even just verbal) that haven't been adequately resolved, another party can't be expected to just swoop in and provide a bandaid for the situation without the necessary work being done to heal from and address the issues at the heart of the problem.

Moreover, in the OP's case, she says she never learned to express love in appropriate ways in her family of origin.

These are skills that need to be learned and issues that need addressing before adding a "third" to the equation.

After that, it may be possible to open up the relationship with clear boundaries and the best of intentions for all concerned, including the new partner.

 

[kdt26417]

Hello Openandintimate,

My take on things is that sometimes open improves things, and sometimes it makes things worse. I am in a V with a married couple, and, from what she has told me, poly arguably saved their marriage. So sometimes poly is a good thing to enter into, I have seen it go both ways. I think you are very generous to be considering this for your husband. It sounds like you are truly sincere about wanting to help him, improve your own way of doing things, and be closer to him. To me those are signs that open might help. Although even if it does help, it will probably also shine a light on each little existing problem, so be aware of/prepared for that. Enter into poly slowly and cautiously, if that's the route you choose to take.

YMMV of course ...
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[sexyserb]

Without getting into all the details of my rocky marriage of 20 years together..... has anyone experienced that their open relationship helped you and your spouse grow closer and more intimate? Or is this lifestyle only for those who already have a very strong foundation?

I am the one asking...... I am encouraging my husband to explore another partner to fulfill his emotional intimacy needs. I have huge problems with emotional intimacy. I am hoping that this may help us grow closer together and teach me how to be more intimate with him and selfless in our marriage.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts or experiences you can share...

Open,

I suggest you do some real reading. No one here can predict how your situation will turn out, but there are very few professionals or "experts" on open/poly/swinging who will tell you that the best chances for success are with two strong partners in a well anchored marriage.
i am sure you will find some who will tell you that having an affair is great for the marriage and how it can help a marriage. Would you bet your life savings on that??

Go to a swingers convention and attend the opening briefing and you will be told that in more instances than not opening a marriage will widen the cracks rather than seal the foundation.

So it depends on if you want to roll the dice or not.

 

[Openandintimate]

I'm not too sure about being "selfless" either. To me that is not a virtue. On the continuum, "selfish" and "selfless" are the unbalanced places on the see-saw. The balanced middle place is "self full."

• Selfish = memememe! Everything is about me. Screw other people and their needs. I have no concern for others.
  
• Selfless = themthemthem! Everything is about them! Screw my needs. I have no concern for myself.
  
• Self-full = I meet my own needs first. Then I can gift my help to others in meeting their reasonable and rational needs. Then I'm not burning myself out or spreading myself too thin. I demonstrate concern for me and concern for others in a balanced way.

Self-care is not optional. It is necessary to be healthy.

If you want to be more giving and generous in your marriage than you have in the past -- could do that. But don't be selfless and have no concern for your own health and well-being at all. That's not good. I don't think that is something to aspire to.

Galagirl

Thank you Galagirl. This was something I never thought about before. I definitely swing from one extreme to the next.

 

[Openandintimate]

What work have you both done to heal from the cheating? Is any of that still at play here? Galagirl

Well... we have been to some counselors at different times, but none that we clicked with. He is sorry for what he did, and understanding of my blow ups around those feelings...but for the most part, that is it. I choose to look at the experience as an opportunity to grow.

Well right now, he is talking with another woman...as per my suggestion, but he hasn't met her in person yet.

Last year, he was talking to the affair partner for 6 weeks, nothing physical, because she had moved on to a different relationship... but it was a secret thing none the less...and that hurt a lot.

From the post, it sounds like he could learn how to articulate his needs on his end of things. If he doesn't know what he needs and he doesn't make any requests of you, is the expectation that you be a mind reader?
Galagirl

So this is an interesting question... first of all, prior to the affair, like I said..."meeting needs" or the fact that we even had needs to be met was foreign to me. This sounds crazy when I say it, but it is true. I was aloof and unattentive to him during our marriage. After the affair, it has all boiled down to this:

Hi needs are:

1. Do not treat him only like a partner (parents, business owners, buddies)... he feels "un-chosen" when I talk about these things only. I tend to naturally talk about these kinds of things though...I was raised by parents who never talked about feelings or emotions, always superficial stuff. I don't even remember them ever asking me how I feel about anything ever in my life.

2. Don't blow up in anger at him (already explained this defensiveness that I feel)

3. Be considerate of what he is thinking/feeling/needing. Come up with new things that he didn't even know he wanted or liked - He has told me specific things that make him feel considered, but he feels like if he has to tell me what his needs are, he doesn't want it anymore. He says he is begging for me to provide what he wants if he has to ask for it. For example, he likes fish nets, I know this and wear them because I know he likes them...but because he had to tell me, it isn't meeting a need for him.

(Attack him) is a behavior choice. Since you recognize your pattern and your triggers... you aren't able to make different behavior choices than (go on the attack)?

When things do not go your way, you are not able to say "Things have not gone my way. I feel like GRRR. I need some space to process all that. I don't want to lash out at you just because I'm mad with X."

When you don't like something about yourself, you are not able to say "I feel upset right now. I don't like X about myself. I need some time
and space to deal with that now." Galagirl

No, it is like I go from 0-100 mph in no time. It is rage, emotional and erratic. Often alcohol is involved, but not always... more often now, it is totally sober. I ALWAYS become empathetic AFTER the fact...like way after the fact. The next morning or so...and then I act like nothing happened, which hurts him even more.

Sounds like on your end, you could work on your communication skills. If/when he does make a request, you need to hear it without defensiveness or as a criticism of you. Like if he asks "I feel lonely. I need to feel connection. Could you be willing to give me a hug?" you don't hear it like "You suck at giving hugs, you never give me any." That is making it be about you. You let it be about him and say "Yes" or "No, not at this time" or "How about X instead?" Galagirl

But how do I deal with his need being to not "treat him like a partner" when so much of our life is partner stuff? This is confusing to me...

Here's a basic module on defensive listening.

http://msue.anr.msu.edu/uploads/236/64484/MOD_3_LISTENING_TO_FACE_VOICE_AND_BODY.pdf

Or maybe you both want to look at Non-Violent Communication.

Basic steps are here: http://www.nonviolentcommunication.com/aboutnvc/4partprocess.htm

The most "to the point" book in my opinion is this one: Living Nonviolent Communication: Practical Tools to Connect and Communicate Skillfully in Every Situation
Galagirl

Thanks you so much!

I think showing him that you are starting to work on your communication/anger management skills with a concrete action is starting gesture enough. You tell him you bought a book and made a counseling appointment or... whatever small DOABLE thing you can do right now.

You could show you are trying to BECOME willing and able to meet his emotional needs. Trying to accept him as he is, trying to learn to listen to him share his inner thoughts and feelings with you, trying to learn to share your inner thoughts and feelings with him, etc. Galagirl

I kind of feel like it is too late at this point, all of a sudden... I have read very book, listened to every podcast, tried everything...he just doesn't believe me when I say or do anything anymore. He has heard it all, and it is always the same he says.

 

[Openandintimate]

Hello Openandintimate,
I think you are very generous to be considering this for your husband. It sounds like you are truly sincere about wanting to help him, improve your own way of doing things, and be closer to him. To me those are signs that open might help. Although even if it does help, it will probably also shine a light on each little existing problem, so be aware of/prepared for that.

Thank you for saying this.

 

[GalaGirl]

Thank you for more info.

1. Do not treat him only like a partner (parents, business owners, buddies)... he feels "un-chosen" when I talk about these things only. I tend to naturally talk about these kinds of things though... I was raised by parents who never talked about feelings or emotions, always superficial stuff. I don't even remember them ever asking me how I feel about anything ever in my life.

Well, you are a not a kid any more living in that house at their mercy. They may not have given you the skills as a kid. That might mean you have to grow them yourself as an adult.

You could learn to ask him how he feels. You can offer how you are doing. If you need some kind of template? Could use "mind, heart, body, soul."

In my marriage we are more than one thing to each other. We are friends, roomies, lovers, coparents, spouses, etc. Sometimes we do talk “business” – what's going on with the house, the kids, the bills, our financial goals, etc. Other times, we don't and are are just out on a date as a couple. And we only talk about ourselves and each other – like when we were courting. NO kid talk, NO bill talk, etc. We need the break from that.

When was the last time you guys had a date?

If you need help asking about what's going on with him, Keep it simple to start. Check in.

• How is his mind?
• How is he doing in his heart/feelings?
• How is his body?
• What about his spiritual health/soul?

And share your own mind, heart, body, soul stuff.

Right now my mind is tired from working on a paper, my emotions are stable, my body could use more sleep, and what currently lifts my spirits is reorganizing my craft room so I can eventually sew something new for myself or the kids.

If I wanted to talk more deeply about one of those things I could. And if DH wanted to ask me more about any one thing, at least he knows what ballpark I am currently in.

2. Don't blow up in anger at him (already explained this defensiveness that I feel)

That is fair. Nobody likes being blown up at. You will have to work on your anger management. It's ok to feel angry and express it appropriately. It is not ok to be like a volcano person and hurl it at anyone within reach. That damages relationships. I urge you to see an individual counselor to address this area.

3. Be considerate of what he is thinking/feeling/needing. Come up with new things that he didn't even know he wanted or liked - He has told me specific things that make him feel considered, but he feels like if he has to tell me what his needs are, he doesn't want it anymore.

To me that sounds like he expects you to read his mind. That's not fair.

He says he is begging for me to provide what he wants if he has to ask for it. For example, he likes fish nets, I know this and wear them because I know he likes them...but because he had to tell me, it isn't meeting a need for him.

Sounds like he doesn't know how to express the NEED.

To me? The need here is not fishnets. The need is CONNECTION or INTIMACY. And he wants it to happen through sexy gestures like wearing fishnets for him. (physical intimacy)

The other need might be SPONTANEITY or surprises. He wants you to come up with the sexy surprises. If he thinks of everything, then he doesn't get to be surprised and that isn't fun for him.

If he said it that way, would it help you understand the NEEDS and get in the ballpark better?

I think he could express the needs more clearly to you since you aren't skilled at figuring them out intuitively.

No, it is like I go from 0-100 mph in no time. It is rage, emotional and erratic. Often alcohol is involved, but not always... more often now, it is totally sober. I ALWAYS become empathetic AFTER the fact...like way after the fact. The next morning or so...and then I act like nothing happened, which hurts him even more.

Again – I suggest you see a counselor for anger management. In the meanwhile, reduce the drinking so that isn't adding to it.

Until you find a counselor for this area, at least apologize the next day rather than acting like nothing happened. Take some personal responsibility for your actions.

That much would show him you are trying to change. Feeling sorry or regretful or empathetic after the fact? That's fine -- but it doesn't help the relationship if you blow up at people and then just pretend nothing happened.

I can imagine that apologizing might feel awkward. But when you make a mess, you have to clean it up. It's not fair to just pretend all is ok when it isn't. That doesn't show him that you value him as a person and care about how these outbursts may affect him. Nobody wants to be some one else's emotional punching bag.

At this time you might not be able to control blowing up... but you DO have a choice in the aftermath. To avoid taking responsibility and "pretend" everything is ok when you know it is not. Or to take personal responsibility and apologize for your behavior the day before.

But how do I deal with his need being to not "treat him like a partner" when so much of our life is partner stuff? This is confusing to me...

You don't have to stop talking to him like a partner. Those things need to be addressed.

You could ALSO talk to him as your romantic/lover person. That part could be added back. Presumably once upon a time you guys dated. Did that stop?

I kind of feel like it is too late at this point, all of a sudden... I have read very book, listened to every podcast, tried everything...he just doesn't believe me when I say or do anything anymore. He has heard it all, and it is always the same he says.

Well, all you can do is keep trying to hold up your end of the marriage stick and keep trying to resolve issues. Keep trying things and keep trying to demonstrate CONSISTENT change. And be honest with him: You may not be able to deliver a life of zero cows.

If right now you have a cow at him a lot? And they are HUGE 100 mph cows, You can try to step it down through self help and counseling help. Slightly smaller cows. Maybe 75 mph ones. And further apart. Like if right now you are blowing up weekly, aim for every 2 weeks or monthly. Find a counselor and work with them to reduce your blow ups and find other ways to express anger.

Maybe over time it becomes more like a 30 mph cow once or twice a year And that becomes more more livable.

CONCLUSION

I'm glad you guys have tried some counselors. I'm sorry not any of them click yet – could keep seeking both a couple counselor and individual counselor for you.

If he wants you to mind reader him? That's not fair. If he expects you to do all the work? Also not fair. He could shoulder his share of the problems. I don't think he articulates needs well. And since you don't pick on that intuitively, he has to learn to be clearer. Maybe work on articulating the need for CONNECTION and INTIMACY first, even if it means not having SPONTANEITY or surprises right now.

If he doesn't want to hold up his end of the marriage stick any more because he doesn't believe change or improvement is possible here? If he doesn't believe you? Could go for honesty and ask him if he's basically burnt out/checking out of the marriage? The marriage might be circling the drain or already spiritually dead. Then maybe the conversation needs to change to (how to best split up and still be good coparents) rather than (how to best do Open marriage.)

Whether or not you guys break up, stay together Closed, or try to do Open marriage... these other things are things you could still work on for yourself so your quality of living improves and you fully heal from your past.

The anger, the blow ups, not knowing how to express yourself, etc.

I'm sorry your upbringing was largely "surface" and shallow relationships. I'm sorry it neglected your inner life. And now you trying to get back in touch with that side feels "unnatural."

To me what seems unnatural is being cut off from a big part of yourself... and how that in turn affects your current relationships. I can only imagine how frustrating/isolating that might feel like.

Galagirl

 

[lunabunny]

prior to the affair, like I said..."meeting needs" or the fact that we even had needs to be met was foreign to me. This sounds crazy when I say it, but it is true. I was aloof and unattentive to him during our marriage.

No, it is like I go from 0-100 mph in no time. It is rage, emotional and erratic. Often alcohol is involved, but not always... more often now, it is totally sober. I ALWAYS become empathetic AFTER the fact...like way after the fact. The next morning or so...and then I act like nothing happened, which hurts him even more

I was raised by parents who never talked about feelings or emotions, always superficial stuff. I don't even remember them ever asking me how I feel about anything ever in my life.


How do I deal with his need being to not "treat him like a partner" when so much of our life is partner stuff? This is confusing to me...

Okay... so you are volatile and have issues with "blowing up" (anger management) when you feel hurt and stressed out, and are not a naturally empathetic person. You tend to focus more on "practical" matters and prefer to leave "touchy feely" emotional stuff because it's uncomfortable or confusing for you.

This may stem from the way you were raised, as you say, openandintimate.

Additionally, there are some personality types and disorders which make sensing the feelings and needs of others, and reacting appropriately, a challenge. ASD/autistic spectrum disorder, for example. I'm not sure if any of this is relevant in your case.

***********

But from reading the below quotes, I'm getting a sense that your husband can be quite an emotionally dependent and/or demanding person, which is at odds with your own nature.

1. Do not treat him only like a partner (parents, business owners, buddies)... he feels "un-chosen" when I talk about these things only. I tend to naturally talk about these kinds of things though...


3. Be considerate of what he is thinking/feeling/needing. Come up with new things that he didn't even know he wanted or liked

He has told me specific things that make him feel considered, but he feels like if he has to tell me what his needs are, he doesn't want it anymore. He says he is begging for me to provide what he wants if he has to ask for it. For example, he likes fish nets, I know this and wear them because I know he likes them...but because he had to tell me, it isn't meeting a need for him.

I kind of feel like it is too late at this point, all of a sudden... I have read very book, listened to every podcast, tried everything...he just doesn't believe me when I say or do anything anymore. He has heard it all, and it is always the same he says.

There is SOME truth to the notion that if one has to ask over and over and practically grovel to be "gifted" with a loved one's attention, romance, sex, or some kind of special "treat", then it tends to lose its lustre. (Believe me: one of my partner's is emotionally out of touch quite often, while the other tends to overdo it, and the different is quite stark!)

That said, I'm not sure your husband's attitude to some of what you mentioned above is totally realistic.

I can understand that if he's made a need/want quite plain, several times, and you're still not providing that in a timely manner or without obvious reluctance/reservation, then he would begin to feel uncared-for and as if he's "not special enough" to warrant those measures in your eyes.

However, it's somewhat unrealistic of him to expect that you're going to "just KNOW" what he likes, wants or needs in any given moment... or to magically hit on exactly the right way of making him feel special and loved, by choosing to do/give/buy/wear something you have no prior way of knowing he is particularly into.

If he hasn't ever indicated an interest in, say, skiing... then why would you plan a ski trip for your anniversary and "just know" he'd enjoy it? If he would like to do something out of the ordinary (in your experience as a couple) in the bedroom or is in the mood for sex, how are you meant to know this, and initiate in just the "right" way, at the right time, in order to please him and make him feel special - unless he tells you what he wants to try and when?

Of course, this doesn't mean you can't/shouldn't initiate or take a punt that he MIGHT enjoy something, and just go for it... but then what if "whatever it is" is really not his thing or a total turn-off? Will he then turn around and complain that you should have already known he didn't like that sort of thing?

As GalaGirl said, you cannot be a mind-reader here. Your husband has to take SOME responsibility for clearly expressing his needs and not simply expecting you to know what will please him.

In the cases where you DO already know, and are NOT doing it (you feel uncomfortable, unable, or confused about how to go about it), then you need to ASK to gain clarification, then decide if it's something you want to make an extra effort to try in order to accommodate this need, or something you're unwilling to do at that time. After all, just because our partners desire something doesn't mean they're OWED that thing from us.

For example, if there really are pressing work, health or kid-related matters to attend to, then it's unrealistic to expect you to prioritise romance/sex over those things - in the SHORT term. Long term, there will always be ways you can show affection and make sure your partner feels loved and cared for - you just have to MAKE the time.

Not saying this is the case... but IF you find the burden of family and business responsibility has traditionally always fallen to you, then he can't blame you for focussing on those things and neglecting him, and turn around and use that as an excuse to have an affair or make you feel like you NEED to consent to his taking another lover to make up for a dearth of sex/affection. I hope he's pulling his weight in those areas.

 

[Openandintimate]

When was the last time you guys had a date?

If you need help asking about what's going on with him, Keep it simple to start. Check in.

• How is his mind?
• How is he doing in his heart/feelings?
• How is his body?
• What about his spiritual health/soul?

And share your own mind, heart, body, soul stuff.
Galagirl

Last real date? I don't know...a long time. I could definitely ask him about his mind, body, heart, soul stuff...

But it scares me to death to share mine...mainly because I feel when I look inside, I will find nothing. I don't even know if I could identify what I am feeling at any given time. Again, this sounds crazy when I say it out loud...but it is just what I feel.

That is fair. Nobody likes being blown up at. You will have to work on your anger management. It's ok to feel angry and express it appropriately. It is not ok to be like a volcano person and hurl it at anyone within reach. That damages relationships. I urge you to see an individual counselor to address this area. Galagirl

I started listening to non violent communication videos today. I am buying the book you suggested and will seek out a counselor trained in this. Thank you so very much.

To me that sounds like he expects you to read his mind. That's not fair.
Galagirl

I agree, but maybe if he felt safe to share his feelings (without risk of a bomb going off) this would change?

To me? The need here is not fishnets. The need is CONNECTION or INTIMACY. And he wants it to happen through sexy gestures like wearing fishnets for him. (physical intimacy)

The other need might be SPONTANEITY or surprises. He wants you to come up with the sexy surprises. If he thinks of everything, then he doesn't get to be surprised and that isn't fun for him.

If he said it that way, would it help you understand the NEEDS and get in the ballpark better?
Galagirl

agreed...and it makes more sense when you phrase it like this.





.

If he doesn't want to hold up his end of the marriage stick any more because he doesn't believe change or improvement is possible here? If he doesn't believe you? Could go for honesty and ask him if he's basically burnt out/checking out of the marriage? The marriage might be circling the drain or already spiritually dead. Then maybe the conversation needs to change to (how to best split up and still be good coparents) rather than (how to best do Open marriage.)
Galagirl

He is basically at the end of his rope, but I still think there is some fight left. It is just really tough though, because he has heard it ALL before from me...and it NEVER changes.

Whether or not you guys break up, stay together Closed, or try to do Open marriage... these other things are things you could still work on for yourself so your quality of living improves and you fully heal from your past.

The anger, the blow ups, not knowing how to express yourself, etc.
Galagirl

I agree totally...thank you again so much.

I'm sorry your upbringing was largely "surface" and shallow relationships. I'm sorry it neglected your inner life. And now you trying to get back in touch with that side feels "unnatural."

To me what seems unnatural is being cut off from a big part of yourself... and how that in turn affects your current relationships. I can only imagine how frustrating/isolating that might feel like.
Galagirl

Waterfalls flowing from my eyes over here... again, thanks. Any other resources, or anything you can share with me on how to develop this inner life would be much appreciated. It IS so very lonely. I used to believe that I was just not "human" and didn't have these needs for emotional connection because of how unnatural it feels. I now know that is not true...

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Openandintimate,

It sounds like you may have lived for a long time with a deep well of emptiness inside. Empty except for a deep well of anger. If I'm right, then it is a profound and complex problem, and you will need a therapist to help you figure it out. In the meantime, I would encourage you to keep posting here, so that we may continue to post updated info/advice for you.

With sympathy,
Kevin T.

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm glad to hear you are thinking about reading about NVC. I do hope you find a counselor that can help you.

Could ask him out on a low pressure date if this has been neglected for a long time. Perhaps do a movie and then dinner. That way at dinner you can talk about the movie you just saw. It's a break from all the "business of life" talk even if you are not ready to do deep personal talk. Baby steps.

I could definitely ask him about his mind, body, heart, soul stuff...

If that is doable, start there then. Baby steps.

But it scares me to death to share mine...mainly because I feel when I look inside, I will find nothing. I don't even know if I could identify what I am feeling at any given time. Again, this sounds crazy when I say it out loud...but it is just what I feel.

That is all a check-in about how you currently feel has to be: You share how you are doing. Like checking a thermometer. You are not expect to DO anything about it. It's just checking where the temperature is at.

If right now it is...

• I feel scared sharing things.
• I have a hard time identifying or naming my emotions.
• I think it sounds crazy when I say that out loud.

That's it and that is ok. Nobody says you have be feeling sunshine and rainbows every minute of the day. Feelings are feelings. Some are fun, some are not.

Whether sunny days or rainy clouds – they all pass in time and a new batch of feelings shows up. And sometimes it's like a sun shower -- where it rains even while the sun is out shining. As though the feelings come through all mixed up not being one distinct way or another. And that is OK too. Be ok weathering out whatever the current "feelings weather" happens to be.

I agree, but maybe if he felt safe to share his feelings (without risk of a bomb going off) this would change?

Possibly. And part of both of you creating that new safe space within the marriage may be BOTH of you making some effort to create it. You put in your effort and he puts in his.

If the way I phrased needs makes more sense to you? More NVC in style? You could ask him to try to do it that way so you can try to understand him better. Both of you meeting the other half way.

Use the links for feeling list and needs list and at least read the basic method even if he is not able to do an entire book at this time.

He is basically at the end of his rope, but I still think there is some fight left. It is just really tough though, because he has heard it ALL before from me...and it NEVER changes.

Well, 100% of your effort is still only 50% of the fuel to run the 2 people marriage. He has to be willing to put in his share too. You cannot provide 200% effort. Doing your share AND his share. That is the path to you burning out.

He could become willing to change some of his approaches too. Like better articulation of needs, better communication. If you go off in volcano mode -- he could learn to say “No. You may not blow up at me like that any more. I can listen and work on problems when you are ready to talk calmly. But no. I will not sit here listening to volcano spew. I am going for a walk.”

Any other resources, or anything you can share with me on how to develop this inner life would be much appreciated.

I'm not sure what you would resonate with best. I'm not a therapist. I hope you can find a counselor who could help you more.

Over here? I deal with my Alzheimer parent who blows up a lot. Even though he is an adult? I turn toward kid resources frequently because those are what my own kids can deal with as they learn how to empathize with him and how to deal with him.

I can see even in his diminished capacity he can still sometimes "get" what the kid stories are trying to teach. Even if adult resources go over his head.

We have Todd Parr Feelings Cards, a lot of Julia Cook's books. And you remind me of "Sometimes I'm Bombaloo" by Rachel Vail. My dad goes bombaloo blowing up at people. That story is about a little girl who blows up and has to learn to express anger better and clean up the "mess that bombaloo made."

So maybe considering borrowing kid resources from the library could be another option?

Waterfalls flowing from my eyes over here... again, thanks. Any other resources, or anything you can share with me on how to develop this inner life would be much appreciated. It IS so very lonely. I used to believe that I was just not "human" and didn't have these needs for emotional connection because of how unnatural it feels. I now know that is not true...

I hope you feel a bit better. Sometimes a having a good cry can help. I am glad you know now that is not true. You are human. If you were not human you would not feel yucky. It's ok to have the need for emotional connection, for human connection.

I'm really sorry you grew up with so much neglect that now you have to be making self repairs.

But hang in there with it. Take it in baby steps. You are worth the investment. So invest in yourself.

Galagirl

 

[Openandintimate]

Additionally, there are some personality types and disorders which make sensing the feelings and needs of others, and reacting appropriately, a challenge. ASD/autistic spectrum disorder, for example. I'm not sure if any of this is relevant in your case.

Not relevant here...

***********

But from reading the below quotes, I'm getting a sense that your husband can be quite an emotionally dependent and/or demanding person, which is at odds with your own nature.

I would agree.. I would probably be happy with just physical affection ( my love language) ...where he scores very low in physical affection. He just really needs that deep emotional connection, where I had lived without my whole life, so it is almost like I don't know what I am missing?

In the cases where you DO already know, and are NOT doing it (you feel uncomfortable, unable, or confused about how to go about it), then you need to ASK to gain clarification, then decide if it's something you want to make an extra effort to try in order to accommodate this need, or something you're unwilling to do at that time. After all, just because our partners desire something doesn't mean they're OWED that thing from us.

I feel like I try, but then I always "quit"...partner stuff takes over, or is always there anyway. I feel like the second he feels like just a partner...the walls go up. I don't know what is realistic in that situation. What I can do differently? Would it be different if he was with someone who never made him feel "less than" to begin with?

Not saying this is the case... but IF you find the burden of family and business responsibility has traditionally always fallen to you, then he can't blame you for focusing on those things and neglecting him, and turn around and use that as an excuse to have an affair or make you feel like you NEED to consent to his taking another lover to make up for a dearth of sex/affection. I hope he's pulling his weight in those areas.

He takes a lot of the family and business burden...that is for sure. The other lover was my idea, he was not really into it at all. He wants to get it all from one person...but I am trying to be realistic in the present moment. I just don't know how to "not only be a partner". As hard as it is with the suggestion of another woman, the feelings of crazy definitely creep in when thinking about them messaging (which is all it is at this point)...it brings up feelings of me being not good enough. She is smarter about things I don't care much about...politics, for example. They have stimulating conversations which is fulfilling a need for him. If I talked about something that I was passionate about and knew a lot about.......something more like the human body or nutrition for example, he would say we are just being buddy/partners. I JUST DON'T KNOW.

 

[Openandintimate]

Hi Openandintimate,

It sounds like you may have lived for a long time with a deep well of emptiness inside. Empty except for a deep well of anger. If I'm right, then it is a profound and complex problem, and you will need a therapist to help you figure it out. In the meantime, I would encourage you to keep posting here, so that we may continue to post updated info/advice for you.

With sympathy,
Kevin T.

Thank you. Yes, that is perfectly said and I think pretty accurate. I am definitely seeking out a therapist. Just to give you an example on how emotion-less my family was...after my mom and dad found out about the affair... all my mom said was " how can he do that to you...your beautiful kids!!"....and my dad never said a word to me, ever. How's that for F'd up?