Challenging FwB

[Fran]

Hello everyone!

First of all, I apologise if you notice any mistakes here, English is not my mothertongue!

I (F, lesbian) and my partner (F, pansexual) have been in a poly relationship for just over 2 years. We are in our mid 30's, and we have a healthy, strong and fun relationship based on an open and honest communication. I have never been in a poly relationship before, but I never felt good in my previous mono relationships. People very close to me had rough experiences: they went through cheating and lying and toxic ways of expressing feelings. I saw from a very close perspective the sofference that can cause "to be in the dark". So when we started talking about rules and agreements, one of them was to tell each other everything.

When I met her, she was at the end of a long distance relationship that had turned into a poly one with her ex (M), who was not very happy about it. Long story short. We are now both in the very real and first poly relationship (no distance, we live 10 minutes from each other) where - no matter what happens - we are honest and clear with each other.

She is a very social person and she likes to be in the crowd (FOMO). This also make me appreciate her, as I can be a bit of asocial myself. I like to spend my time at home (reading, listening to music). Sometimes I need a little push to go out into the world and live a bit outside of books and my little world. To be clear: I am not a hermit, I just want to emphasise that we are two different people and she actively looks for new people to meet and new things to do; I am less so.

She had a couple of dates with a FwB (M) and flirts. I haven't had any experience with other people yet, although I had and have interests in other people. It just never happened. These dates and flirts she had were only with men. I don't know why - I discovered that to be a common things amongs lesbians - I feel more insecure when she has something with men than with women.
Each time I have gotten a bit better with my insecurities and my jealousy. She's also very supportive and always reassures me when I need it. Whenever there is a misunderstanding, we tend to talk about it as soon as possible and we share our feelings. This solves things and helps us to find harmony again.

We are not spending New Year together this year. She is with some friends elsewhere, and she told me before she left that something might happen with someone. And that is fine. Except that when we talked about it later, she told me that one of the guys she was flirting with, is one I do not like. We previously met this guy on another occasion where he was flirting with her in front of me. He's a very loud guy, the kind who the polarises attention, and I didn't like the way he behaved. I don't feel threatened by him. I am not jealous of him. I found it very disrespectful the way he acted, not even acknowledging my presence there.

I also questioned myself about it and wondered if this was just me wanting him to "ask my permission" to flirt with my girlfriend. So far, I don't think so. Another night, for example, we were out with other friends, dancing and enjoying the moment and the music. A friend of ours came over and started talking to me. He said that my GF is amazing and he told me that in the past something had happened between them in the past (which I already knew). He then told me that he would like it to happen again. I answered to him that he would have to ask her consent, then. And that was it. I felt very seen by him, too, and I found this approach very considerate to me.
To go back to the guy I'm not fond of: he was just flirting with her, trying to be funny and impress her, and I don't remember him even looking at me. When I knew that there is a chance she might go with him, I felt unprepared to deal with such negative feelings. We've never faced the possibility of one of us going with someone we don't like (as a person, not aesthetically). I don't want to ask her not to, even though a tiny part of me wants to. But I also need to tell her that there is a reason (for me a good one, of course) why I don't like him. This is one of those ugly situations where I don't want to ask for sympathy, but I kind of expect it. And I wonder what is the right approach and how this is fair to her. What might be a good compromise here?
Has anyone had a similar experience to share? It would be helpful to have some food for thought, especially because we definetely need to talk more about this kind of situation.

Thanks to all of you in advance and happy new year!
Peace

 

[Magdlyn]

Welcome and happy new year!

I have a couple questions before I give feedback.

This unpleasant fellow, did he know you and your partner are together, and poly? Has he seen you before and ignored you, or was this the first time you and your partner met him?

If he doesn't know you're together, there would be no reason for him to pay you attention, talk to you, wonder about your consent, etc.

 

[Bobbi]

This is such a tough position to be in. It's also a challenge for polyamory as a whole.

On the one hand, you are poly. That means she gets to have relationships with whomever she wants. Just because you don't like her choices doesn't mean she sees him the same way. Things you deem important in a partner, even a friend or acquaintance, she might see as unimportant. This is the nature of you being individuals.

On the other hand, seeing your partner date, be intimate with and even have sex with someone you'd never want to spend time with because of standards that are important to you, may cause you to look at your partner differently, feel differently about her and maybe even lose respect for her. This can have a huge impact on your relationship.

You need to ask yourself if this will happen....will you hold back with her because she has different standards than you do? It's possible this might show you she's not a good partner for you. It's up to you to decide if this is a deal breaker for you or not.

I know the standards my partners expect and that those standards are compatible with mine, but if they weren't compatible, it would be a deal breaker for me.

 

[Fran]

Welcome and happy new year!

I have a couple questions before I give feedback.

This unpleasant fellow, did he know you and your partner are together, and poly? Has he seen you before and ignored you, or was this the first time you and your partner met him?

If he doesn't know you're together, there would be no reason for him to pay you attention, talk to you, wonder about your consent, etc.

Hi! Thank you for your answer.

That was the first time I met him. I think my GF met him in another occasion, but I am not sure. He knows that we are together, I don't think I would've react like this otherwise. I understand that everyone's different, etc, but I have a certain... etiquette (is it okay to define it this way?) when I approach someone I know is already in a relationship. Especially if the partner is there, present! I don't know. Due to the fact that more people (that we do not know and we don't have any confidence with) can be involved in a poly relationship, I think is important to avoid some kind of impetuous behaviour.
At the end I shared this feelings with my GF and she told me that she understands and nothing happened with this guy. She had a good time with another man

It's interesting though the general discussion around this topic. Like Bobbi wrote, on the one hand, we are two different people: our taste or priority in some situation might be different and it's up to her. On the other hands, is there a space for the "us" of our primary relationship? And, if yes, where are the limits and the compromises about hypothetical shared standards? The answer I gave myself is maybe very obvious: it depends on the situation. There will be other situations where she might have sympathy for me and see my reasons, too. There will be other situations where, even if I don't like the other person, she is gonna have her reasons/taste and it's gonna be enough for me. Or other situations where is not possible to have a compromise: in this case, maybe it's not gonna be a deal breaker, but it's going to be a tough conversation where we maybe need to adjust somethings or just accept the fact that sometimes it's just not possible to agree.

 

[Fran]

This is such a tough position to be in. It's also a challenge for polyamory as a whole.

On the one hand, you are poly. That means she gets to have relationships with whomever she wants. Just because you don't like her choices doesn't mean she sees him the same way. Things you deem important in a partner, even a friend or acquaintance, she might see as unimportant. This is the nature of you being individuals.

On the other hand, seeing your partner date, be intimate with and even have sex with someone you'd never want to spend time with because of standards that are important to you, may cause you to look at your partner differently, feel differently about her and maybe even lose respect for her. This can have a huge impact on your relationship.

You need to ask yourself if this will happen....will you hold back with her because she has different standards than you do? It's possible this might show you she's not a good partner for you. It's up to you to decide if this is a deal breaker for you or not.

I know the standards my partners expect and that those standards are compatible with me but if they weren't compatible, it would be a deal breaker for me.

Hi Bobby, thank you for answer! I gave a comprehensive answer to Magdlyn post where I put your insights, too! I totally agree with your view. That is a tough one and I think it can only depend on each situation.

 

[Magdlyn]

That was the first time I met him. I think my GF met him in another occasion, but I am not sure. He knows that we are together, I don't think I would've react like this otherwise. I understand that everyone's different, etc, but I have a certain... etiquette (is it okay to define it this way?) when I approach someone I know is already in a relationship. Especially if the partner is there, present! I don't know. Due to the fact that more people (that we do not know and we don't have any confidence with) can be involved in a poly relationship, I think is important to avoid some kind of impetuous behaviour.

Polyamory is not that common, so perhaps he hasn't had much, if any, contact with poly folk, and doesn't understand the "etiquette." Especially since you're two women. He might've flirted less if she was with a boyfriend, eh? We all know FF relationships don't count (sarcasm).

At the end I shared these feelings with my GF and she told me that she understands and nothing happened with this guy. She had a good time with another man.

Oh, so while she was at her party, you told her you didn't like this guy, and so she stopped flirting with him and hooked up with someone else instead?

I understand how lesbians can feel about their female partners dating men. It's similar (not quite the same, of course) to how many straight guys feel about their female partners dating other men, while if their gfs want to date a female, it's okay, even "hot."

In your case, men have something you don't have. A penis. And testosterone, that male energy, which is usually quite distinct from a woman's. So it can feel threatening.

I'm non-binary, myself and also pansexual, so I tend to not care which gender I date, and my female partner is also pansexual and attracted to all genders. We have not found cis guys to be any more of an issue than women, not more threatening, not more "attractive," etc. We really appreciate female energy.

It's interesting, though, the general discussion around this topic. Like Bobbi wrote, on the one hand, we are two different people: our taste or priority in some situation might be different and it's up to her. On the other hands, is there a space for the "us" of our primary relationship?

What do you mean here? Space for discussion, to determine which values you share? Are you thinking, because you think of her as your "primary," you should have a say over whom she dates?

And, if yes, where are the limits and the compromises about hypothetical shared standards? The answer I gave myself is maybe very obvious: it depends on the situation. There will be other situations where she might have sympathy for me and see my reasons, too. There will be other situations where, even if I don't like the other person, she is gonna have her reasons/taste and it's gonna be enough for me. Or other situations where is not possible to have a compromise: in this case, maybe it's not gonna be a deal breaker, but it's going to be a tough conversation where we maybe need to adjust somethings or just accept the fact that sometimes it's just not possible to agree.

I can give an example, since my female (technically she's a trans woman but she IDs as female) partner and I were both poly-dating others for quite a few years before we both finally met our guys, with whom we have kind of settled down.

I'm sure I dated a few people she wasn't entirely sure were good for me. Dating is hard, and even though I tried my best to screen out the losers, guys will lie, and I have had men nick my heart more than once. I also had my heart nicked by a cis woman. Pixi just supported me and let me make my own mistakes. Give shitty dating partners enough rope and they will hang themselves. Pixi dated less than me because she is trans and her dating pool is smaller. I do recall one really nice guy she was in a relationship with for most of a year. He was lovely, but his other (I guess you'd call her primary, she was his D/s Mistress) was horrible-- demanding, intrusive, pushy, etc. Pretty narcissistic. Finally Pixi and this guy drifted apart. I just let her relationship take its course and supported her when she was frustrated. I'm not her mom, she's not my mom, so we just support each other as friends would. Adults, making our own choices and facing our own consequences, on our journeys.

(That guy left his Mistress soon after he and Pixi drifted apart too.)

 

[LoveBunny]

Maybe you feel threatened because men and heterosexual couples have a societal privilege that lesbians and lesbian couples lack. In a hetero relationship, a woman enjoys more acceptance from the world at large, plus it's (often) easier to make babies if she's interested in that, and of course, men often make more $$$, even for performing the same jobs. It's easy to see how a queer woman might perceive the attentions of a man towards her partner as threatening. Look at the "safety" he offers her just because he was born male.

And if he's one of those men who thinks he has the right to suck up all the oxygen out of the room just because he's male, well, as a queer woman, I can't stand that kind of man, either.

Fran, only you can decide if a blowhard male metamour is baggage you're willing to live with. It may well color your interactions with your partner if you dislike the people she spends time with. How much compartmentalization, detachment and separation is too much for you? (Or, as you questioned in a very well-put way, "Is there a space for the 'us' of our primary relationship?")

Do question everything, including your own bias, continue to communicate honestly. I wish you best of luck.

 

[kdt26417]

Hello Fran,

Tell your partner that you have concerns about the guy she is thinking about dating. Then leave the ball in her court. If she wants to know what your concerns are, she can ask you. Otherwise let her do what she will, she is an adult and she can work through any pain she experiences, and learn from it. In the meantime, you might want to tell her that you don't personally want to be around this guy. She should be able to respect that preference. On the other hand, if things fizzle right away between her and this guy, maybe you don't have to bring it up?

Just some thoughts,
Kevin T.

 

[Fran]

Polyamory is not that common, so perhaps he hasn't had much, if any, contact with poly folk, and doesn't understand the "etiquette." Especially since you're two women. He might've flirted less if she was with a boyfriend, eh? We all know FF relationships don't count (sarcasm).

Yeah, exactly! Jokes apart, precisely because he doesn't know that we are poly. (We could be mono, for example.) It's not about being mono or poly. I don't think it's a nice way to act.

Oh, so while she was at her party, you told her you didn't like this guy, and so she stopped flirting with him and hooked up with someone else instead?

Yeah, she hooked up with another guy. The next day we talked a lot about the flirting with the guy I don't like. It was kind of much ado about nothing, because it could also be just his way to act (which is still annoying, because he is "one of those guys"), and she also didn't plan to do anything with him.

I understand how lesbians can feel about their female partners dating men. It's similar (not quite the same, of course) to how many straight guys feel about their female partners dating other men, while if their gfs want to date a female, it's okay, even "hot."

This is a pretty offensive thought from many straight guys, isn't it? Isn't it delegitimizing completely the other person? In this case, I think I would react in the same way even if the guy would have been a girl. It's the behaviour the bothered me, not the gender.

What do you mean here? Space for discussion, to determine which values you share? Are you thinking, because you think of her as your "primary," you should have a say over whom she dates?

We have already a good core of values we share. I don't think I should have a say over whom she dates. That would be toxic and controlling. I do have high standards for myself, and for her, too, though!

Let's say that she's attracted to a person I don't like (to define the gender is here unimportant, so is the subject about insecurities towards men). Let's say I don't like this person because there is a fair reason. This could, of course, go the other way around: let's say that I am attracted to a person that she doesn't like, and she tells me why, and I see her reason.

A fair reason is not intended here, just like an antipathy. Sometimes we just don't like people for no reason. This person hasn't done anything to bother us. They just give us a negative feeling. I think in this case this negative feeling would be my problem. I have to deal with it and that's it. Fair reason is here intended when this person did or does something that is disrespectful to us (me, her, or our relationship).

If I date a girl and she says to me that she does not see that my GF and I fit together, and I should start date her more seriously, for me, it would be a no-go. If she starts to date a person that claims and demands more and more, without concerns or care for our history and relationship, that would be a no-go.

I can give an example, since my female (technically she's a trans woman, but she IDs as female) partner and I were both poly-dating others for quite a few years before we both finally met our guys, with whom we have kind of settled down.

I'm sure I dated a few people she wasn't entirely sure were good for me. Dating is hard, and even though I tried my best to screen out the losers, guys will lie, and I have had men nick my heart more than once. I also had my heart nicked by a cis woman. Pixi just supported me and let me make my own mistakes. Give shitty dating partners enough rope and they will hang themselves. Pixi dated less than me because she is trans and her dating pool is smaller. I do recall one really nice guy she was in a relationship with for most of a year. He was lovely, but his other (I guess you'd call her primary, she was his D/s Mistress) was horrible-- demanding, intrusive, pushy, etc. Pretty narcissistic. Finally Pixi and this guy drifted apart. I just let her relationship take its course and supported her when she was frustrated. I'm not her mom, she's not my mom, so we just support each other as friends would. Adults, making our own choices and facing our own consequences, on our journeys.

(That guy left his Mistress soon after he and Pixi drifted apart too.

 

[Fran]

Maybe you feel threatened because men and heterosexual couples have a societal privilege that lesbians and lesbian couples lack. In a hetero relationship, a woman enjoys more acceptance from the world at large, plus it's (often) easier to make babies if she's interested in that. And of course men often make more $$$, even for performing the same jobs. It's easy to see how a queer woman might perceive the attentions of a man towards her partner as threatening. Look at the "safety" he offers her just because he was born male.

That is absolutely something to think about. I know my partner, and I know she doesn't care about this thing, so all this is not a "real threat." But of course we've just internalized this stuff since we were born, and these unconscious mechanisms are difficult to crack! I am working on it.

Fran, only you can decide if a blowhard male metamour is baggage you're willing to live with. It may well color your interactions with your partner if you dislike the people she spends time with. How much compartmentalization, detachment and separation is too much for you? (Or, as you questioned in a very well-put way, "is there a space for the 'us' of our primary relationship?")

I gave another answer to that to Magdlyn. Of course it depends on the situation. Maybe it's possible to define or shape some kind of space without undermining our freedom. Poly doesn't mean to do whatever I want, but on the contrary, to have a starting point of truth and respect for each other. To put some limit (I know this is not the best word in a poly context!) it needed also to preserve the relationship and prevent hurting the others. This limit is not fixed, it could maybe a guide. This limit is the space for the "us." Sometimes it's gonna take a minimal space, sometimes it's gonna need more space, but it's there. It's us.

Do question everything, including your own bias, continue to communicate honestly. I wish you best of luck.

Thank you for these words! I'll do my best!

 

[Fran]

Hello Fran,

Tell your partner that you have concerns about the guy she is thinking about dating. Then leave the ball in her court. If she wants to know what your concerns are, she can ask you. Otherwise let her do what she will, she is an adult and she can work through any pain she experiences, and learn from it. In the meantime, you might want to tell her that you don't personally want to be around this guy. She should be able to respect that preference. On the other hand, if things fizzle right away between her and this guy, maybe you don't have to bring it up?

Just some thoughts,
Kevin T.

She was very understanding as soon as I shared my concerns with her. I will always leave the ball in her court. But I am very happy because every time there is some challenge, we are able to talk through it and reconnect deeply. The power of honest communication!

 

[Magdlyn]

Communication is the first and most important rule in polyamory. (It should be for every relationship...) Sometimes people avoid the harder talks, because, of course, they feel uncomfortable, even a bit scary. We all experience this. But it's still crucial to lean in to problems and not avoid them. The clarity you get from telling someone how you feel, and hearing their thoughts and feelings back, is so important, and it feels great! It's a relief.