cheating wife started my poly relationship

[IndieSolo]

I can appreciate where you are coming from, NYCindie. You identify as poly and recognize that you would sooner give up a partner than give up your identity.

Egad, no! I do not ID as poly. I am just a human being open to having multiple relationships. For me, it is not an identity or orientation. I choose it, but would be happy in a mono relationship, too, because my happiness depends on me, not on a relationship configuration. A relationship configuration is never, ever more important than a person. I just like the idea of having a life full of love and loving people, so for now I embrace polyamory as a practice.

I understand everything you're saying. But you really have no idea how much venomous anger is spewing out of your posts. So I just wanted to point out to you how obvious it is that you haven't forgiven her, though you say you did. I suspect forgiveness sometimes has to come in stages or steps, but I just take issue with the parameters you set forth for taking her back-- that she can't have an outside relationship, but you can. Both Esther and you are autonomous beings who make your own choices. But if you want to work on your relationship and heal it, I think you need to look a little more at how creepy it is to make rules like that.

You should consider therapy, both individually and together.

 

[IndieSolo]

Forgiveness. Still figuring this out, what it means, how to do it. Forgiveness is not a clean slate. As nice as it would be to have a clean slate at times in our life, you don't get one. You can't change what you've done, even if you feel badly about it. So the idea that anyone is owed a clean slate is utter bullshit.

I never said anyone "owes" it to a cheater to wipe the slate clean. The person who was cheated on has to do what they feel is best. But if the goal is to preserve and heal the relationship, then wiping the slate clean is as much a benefit to the cheatee as it is to the cheater. Wiping the slate clean does not mean that the cheater does not need to make amends and rebuild trust. What you said about being transparent and proving yourself to not be lying anymore is indeed necessary.

However, so many people think that the onus of rebuilding a relationship after cheating is all on the cheater. Dirty, nasty, fucking cheater! Of course, it's a total breach of trust and a shitty thing to do, but the cheatee has a duty, too - to forgive. If they can't forgive, they need to admit it, stop pretending they have forgiven, and work toward getting there.

What I meant when I say forgiving someone is starting over with a clean slate is this: the clean slate exists when the person who has been cheated on gives up the "need" to punish the cheater, and will not throw the transgression(s) back in their face. When you are forgiven a debt, it is as if the debt never happened, and you no longer owe the creditor money. If you go to jail for a crime, and are released after serving your time, they can't send you back for the same crime and make you pay for it again. It is the same with any transgression. Once the cheater has made amends and the cheatee is ready to forgive, you cannot keep punishing and holding onto the hurt or neither of you will ever be able to move on and build a new relationship with each other. If you never truly forgive someone, they will never be able to "pay" enough for what they did, and essentially would be your hostage.

You ever have an argument with someone who suddenly brings up shit you did from way back when, to try and make you really feel bad because they're angry? The fact that they bring up old wounds means that there is still some forgiving to be done. A clean slate doesn't mean pretending it never happened - it means that after acknowledging the "crime," the work has been done to move on, and the parties are now living in the present and not dredging up the past as a way to feel vindicated for feeling angry, victimized, offended etc.

I think maybe I said it better in another thread, where Loving Radiance concurred:

I think this is key to being able to move on. The burden is not solely that of the transgressor who must make amends for whatever they did to break trust; the offended party must also be willing to fully forgive. And forgiveness means to wipe the slate clean as if it never happened and to let go of any suspicions, lingering doubts, or resentments. So, rebuilding trust is a challenging process for all parties, not just the one who fucked up. The transgressor can work vigilantly to regain trust for years, and again become a stellar partner who meets all the needs and expectations of their significant other(s), but if there is no forgiveness offered, it is all for nothing. You can't keep making someone pay for their "crime" over and over again. I don't think any relationship could survive that. All parties need to reach the point where they can leave it all behind them, and they all have work to do to get there.

I think there is definitely a huge component in the fact that the person who was hurt must be willing to forgive in order for trust to be regained, and they can't be in retaliation or revenge mode either. For a long time, Maca was in retaliation "tit-for-tat" mode. He would intentionally do and say things intended to "repay" me for hurting him.

There is no healing for the relationship while that is going on. It really was a royal clusterfuck, to say the least!

It was critical that I be true about making amends. But there also came a point where I had to be willing to stand up and say

"Okay, time's up. I'm not going to stop being the honest, open, transparent person I have become, but I am done being the doorpost you kick every time you feel angsty or angry or hurt or whatever."

That forced him to stop and consider. He'd tried to get revenge. He'd vented all he could about the hurt. He'd annihilated my name in our social circles . . . Now, did he really want to let bygones be bygones, and try to build a functional future together, or to part?

 

[graviton]

The reason I came to the conclusion that you had not forgiven Esther is that you stated you still entertained thoughts of leaving her. That doesn't sound like forgiveness.

If this is true, then why is she angry at you for denying her access to Nathan?

One can forgive, but if the relationship and connection changes to something else that feels too different, then it may still be best to leave.

She feels that my relationship with Ruth has tainted her relationship with her. She recognizes the hypocrisy in that. considering how my family has been tainted.

 

[graviton]

Thanks, Vixtoria. I appreciate your input. I guess the best way I can describe my forgiveness is that my head has forgiven her, but my heart has not. I am very logically-minded, and can rationalize what happened and forgive it. Esther has agreed to do anything to rebuild my trust in her and has been great ever since. I am way past the need for anger or vindictiveness. Trust me when I say there was plenty of it that I'm not proud of. I hurt for her because she hasn't forgiven herself. However my heart still aches and sobs because of it. My heart still screams, "How could you do this?"

NYCindie, I also recognized from the beginning that I am responsible for most of the work if I want our marriage to survive. I remember cursing at Esther in the days after I kicked her out about how unfair it is that the betrayed spouse is the one who has to do all the work to maintain the relationship, while the cheater just has to perform a few trivial steps to build trust, like opening their communications for scrutinizing, and trying to be loving to their partner without being defensive or accusatory.

Esther says she feels so helpless because she recognizes how powerless she is in my rebuilding a connection with her. It was my sense of pride, trust, and understanding of the world that was torn asunder, and I am the only one who can rebuild that which is mine. Once I have rebuilt it, it will look very much different than what it use to be. I may not like how it looks. Esther may not like how it looks. And because of that, our marriage may end. But I do recognize that the burden and work is mine to perform.

 

[Icewraithonyx]

Disclaimer: I'm the mono husband of a cheating-to-polyamorous wife. We opted for reconciling. Some of my views may not be as cheating-tolerant as others.

Graviton: I'm the husband of Vixtoria. I have some idea how shattering it is to be cheated on. I understand how you might be feeling. I hope no one on the forums disregards how shocked and betrayed you're probably still feeling, even months later. However, I also perceive that there is still a lot of anger and upset to be dealt with before the work of forgiveness can start.

Vix and I have often made the comparison to having a spouse burn your house to the ground, and now both of you have a lot of work to do rebuilding if you want to continue having a home, which includes clearing out the burnt debris.

Vix and I liked the book “After the Affair” by Janis A Spring. It did a good job describing how the betrayed partner might be feeling, as well as some insights on what the betrayer was thinking/feeling. Also it suggested that extra relationships be put on hold, whereas every other affair recovery book demanded a complete and permanent break up. Another thing I liked is it talked about deciding whether or not to try and reconcile or just call it quits.

That's your biggest step. You talk of forgiving her, but you think you're over the hump as far as deciding whether to leave her or not. (To be honest, I feel you have every right to still be this upset.) IMO, you're still at the crossroads of deciding whether or not you want to reconcile or just be with Ruth.

Regardless of what others think about recovering from cheating while there's a 3rd party involved, I do not see that working very often (almost never).

So my big advice for right now: figure out what you want to do. Work on reconciling with Esther, or cultivate the relationship with Ruth. I'm not saying dump Ruth if you decide to reconcile, but it's going to take a lot of work. And if Ruth is in the immediate vicinity as an “escape route”, it's going to sap your inclination to do the work.

I agree with many of the others about reconciling not being just Esther's job. If you're not even open to the option, there's nothing she can do. However, that does not mean she gets a clean slate, as if the transgression never occurred. (Would that be the advice for someone who was the victim of sexual assault or domestic violence? I would argue the infidelity can be nearly as shattering.) However, I think it means that you both acknowledge the mistake, the parts (minor and major) from each of you that promoted the mistake, and how to move on from there. As I said, Vix and I are trying to reconcile past mistakes on both of our parts, so my thoughts skew in that direction.

 

[IndieSolo]

I'm the mono husband of a cheating-to-polyamorous wife, and we opted for reconciling. Some of my views may not be as pro-cheating as others.

I don't think anyone here is "pro-cheating."

 

[Icewraithonyx]

I edited from "pro-cheating" to "cheating-tolerant". Better?

 

[graviton]

I don't think anyone here is "pro-cheating."

That is true/ But I do believe the poly community seems better prepared to handle it, and thus a bit more accepting it as a part of life, and jaded to it as a result. Many are use to the idea of their partner "being with" (i.e., having sex with) someone else, so cheating is more a breach of disclosure and trust. For the rest of the population, it's the breach of trust and the shock of their partner wanting to be with someone else, and the shock of their actually having been with (had sex with) someone else.

 

[IndieSolo]

I edited from "pro-cheating" to "cheating-tolerant". Better?

No, it sounds like you're saying that lots of people here condone cheating. Is that something you gathered from this thread, or elsewhere? There is a world of difference between forgiving the cheater in order to move on and tolerating cheating, which I am certain most members here would not do, myself included. I wouldn't put up with it.

Sometimes it is impossible to forgive, and no reconciliation can be made. But if healing and reconciling the relationship is the goal, then compassion and forgiveness toward both cheater and cheatee (you know, as in not beating oneself up for not seeing or believing the warning signs, etc.) is necessary, imo.

 

[Icewraithonyx]

No, it sounds like you're saying that lots of people here condone cheating. Is that something you gathered from this thread, or elsewhere? There is a world of difference between forgiving the cheater in order to move on and tolerating cheating, which I am certain most members here would not do, myself included. I wouldn't put up with it.

From this thread:

Esther doesn't necessarily need to give up being with your cousin Nathan in order to make amends and rebuild trust. Plenty of poly people stay with the people they cheated with, while they worked on the relationship with the partners they cheated on.

Sounds like "Well, cheating isn't all that bad."

Sometimes it is impossible to forgive and no reconciliation can be made. But if healing and reconciling the relationship is the goal, then compassion and forgiveness toward both cheater and cheatee (you know, as in not beating oneself up for not seeing or believing the warning signs, etc.) is necessary, I believe.

I don't disagree, if both the betrayed and betrayer want to do the work (of which the betrayer has the majority).

It's not productive to keep beating Esther over the head just to punish her. He may have to express some thoughts and feelings that she won't like. I don't think they can say "Oops," and get a clean slate, as if the offense never happened. (If you go to jail for breaking into houses, and a housebreaking happens in your area, after you've paid your debt to society, guess who they're going to have questions for?)

I empathize with how he's probably feeling. I think he's still more upset than even he realizes. And he needs to decide whether to work on forgiveness and reconciliation, or end things. Either decision has pros and cons, so it's up to him. But maybe a little sympathy for a difficult situation?

 

[Marcus]

Sounds like "Well, cheating isn't all that bad."

Is that what it sounds like to your ears? Awesome, run with that. It isn't reality, because thus far, you are the only person who has said that. Thus far, I haven't seen anyone make anything close to this statement (including the one you quoted, which doesn't say anything like that).

(If you go to jail for breaking into houses, and a housebreaking happens in your area, after you've paid your debt to society, guess who they're going to have questions for?)

What are you talking about?

I think he's still more upset than even he realizes

Who knows? There are volumes of discussions on how to deal with feelings about deception on these boards. It seems like such a common starting ground for people to come to consensual non-monogamy. It's a real shame that this is how people absently stumble into something that, if approached reasonably, can be so fantastic.

 

[Magdlyn]

Just curious, why did Esther cheat in the first place?

Why did she choose the wife of your "psycho" cousin to be with to "explore her bisexuality," of all people, and then, what compelled her to fuck this dude you seem to hate, not just drunk at a wedding, but repeatedly?

And why, of all the people in the world, again, did you choose to fuck one of your wife's best friends, the wife of your "psycho" cousin? I mean, yeah, you and she had a flirtation going back years, but why did it end up hurting Esther so much to have you take her good friend Ruth as a lover, to the point she lost her friendship?

You two have some deep issues, and odd ways of torturing each other. That's how it seems to me.

 

[graviton]

Just curious, why did Esther cheat in the first place?

Why did she choose the wife of your "psycho" cousin to be with to "explore her bisexuality," of all people, and then, what compelled her to fuck this dude you seem to hate, not just drunk at a wedding, but repeatedly?

And why, of all the people in the world again, did you choose to fuck one of your wife's best friends?

I mean, yeah, you and she had a flirtation going back years, but why did it end up hurting Esther so much to have you have her good friend Ruth as a lover, to the point she lost her friendship?

You two have some deep issues, and odd ways of torturing each other.

Good question. Esther claims she felt neglected by me because I had to work so many weekends, and spent considerable time prepping for my certification exams. My cousin Nathan his wife Ruth flirted with Esther, and made her feel special. They gave her NRE. (We'd been married 17 years.)

I chose Ruth because the chemistry between us is unlike anything I have ever felt, and we have known each other a while, so it was an easy fit. We are not sexual. We date and flirt and cuddle.

Esther hasn't lost her friend. It's that she feels weird about my relationship with Ruth, and doesn't feel she can share with Ruth the kinds of things she use to... like bitching about me.

 

[Magdlyn]

Oh, doesn't she know the main use for a metamour is to sit around and bitch about the shared lover?

But seriously, dude, you and Esther have issues. If she was neglected while you were busy with school, now is the time for more togetherness and fun together to reconnect. "Marriage in trouble, add more people" is a newbie mistake in polyamory.

Now is not the time to shower love and attention on Ruth, while Esther sits in the corner and beats her breast for succumbing to NRE without your approval. Where do you expect to be a year from now? 5 years?

This is a good time for some rekindling of your former romantic feelings for each other. Do you date? Make love frequently? Give each other little gifts? Sit and cuddle with a beverage and some music playing with candles lit? Take walks? Go on day trips?

Being poly means loving more than one. Maybe it's time to love your wife up (instead of just the gf), understand she was in a desperate position (to have had sex with your hated cousin, she must have been really desperate). If it takes therapy, go for it!

 

[graviton]

That's the puzzling thing. We had sex at least once a day, good horny sex, that always pleased me and always gave her orgasms. We had frequent dates without the kids, more than any of our friends ever did. We had day trips and overnights at hotels. We cuddled when watching TV on the couch.

People described our marriage in flattering terms, and the ones who know about the affairs are quite shocked.

As you can imagine, my desire to shower Esther with that kind of attention, the kind she was getting before her affair, is minimal at best. She did confess to the excitement of sneaking, which is what troubles me the most.

 

[Magdlyn]

Well this:

We had sex at least once a day, that always pleased me and always gave her orgasms. We had frequent dates without the kids. We had day trips and overnights at hotels. We cuddled when watching TV on the couch. My desire to shower her with that kind of attention, the kind she was getting before her affair is minimal. She did confess to the excitement of sneaking, which is what troubles me the most.

Seems in conflict with this:

She claims she felt neglected by me, because I had to work so many weekends, and spent considerable time prepping for my certification exams. My cousin Nathan and his wife Ruth flirted and made her feel special. They gave her NRE.

So, which is it? Was she pampered and dated, or neglected at home with two young sons while you worked and studied?

Does she work outside the home? Did she lose herself, being a mom? It happens often that all the work entailed in being a parent can make one feel like a Mom Machine, and lose track of one's own interests.

If things were so great, as you claim, and she is claiming otherwise, outright neglect, you two might need more than some internet strangers to work this out. Professional counseling is probably in order.

 

[graviton]

Magdlyn, it was both. We really did have, at least what I considered, and many of our friends and family considered, a "perfect" relationship in the loving way. I don't think its an either/or proposition. She was at home alone a lot with the kids, while I worked. But we also routinely (weekly) got a babysitter and went on dates. We did day trips and overnights when my parents would come up to care for the boys, maybe once every two months.

There is no doubt the kids can be overwhelming. I pushed for her to get a job to get out during the day. But she refused. She wanted to be a stay-at-home mom, like all her friends. I make a good living for our family, so we even had a house cleaner occasionally.

Esther had the ability to get together with her other mom friends, and go places with the kids, with no worries about money due to gas or entrance fees to zoos, or whatnot. I'm telling you, her life was about as good as anyone could hope for as a stay-at-home mom.

I know husbands that worked worse hours for far less pay, spouses with terrible communication skills and sex lives compared to ours, and none of them had an affair with a cousin (as far as I know). I ventured into poly knowing that a good solid marriage would be necessary to deal with the insecurities. I always do my homework thoroughly before venturing into something new.

Could I have been more romantic or attentive? Probably. We had been married for 17 years. We have two kids. you guys know how stagnant relationships can get. We are both college educated with advanced degrees, not low-income uneducated Jerry Springer types, although I now feel like I belong on that show.

I never in a million years would have guessed that our relationship could become this dysfunctional, or that she would dream of cheating on me. I'm at a loss for how it happened.

Her fucking him while drunk I understand. Her continuing the affair for months after and lying to me and making me feel stupid and paranoid until I had to give her an ultimatum to come clean... I just can't comprehend how she could be that way.

I don't expect you guys to solve my problems. I'm just curious how each of you view it and what your opinions are. Nothing has been said thus far that surprises me, or that I haven't thought of myself, except for the accusations on how cruel or unforgiving I am. You guys have opened my eyes to the fact that perhaps I have not forgiven her as much as I thought. I think I know in my heart I will never fully forgive her. There will always be pain associated with these memories, and every time I have to see, hear about, or think about my cousin.

That's the takeaway from this. Never lend money to family, never do business with family, and never fuck family. You can't escape family, should you need to.

 

[bookbug]

A friend of mine once had an affair. It was long ago, and I can't remember how it came about, but she told me something I would have never thought of. She said that once it started, the only way she could allay the terrible guilt was to convince herself it was a viable option and continue it. The only thing that alleviated her horrible feelings was being with the guy she had an affair with - although it compounded the guilt.

Perhaps your wife experienced something similar?