Cheating

[Magdlyn]

It’s not really my heteronormative expectations as much as hetero experiences and exposure. I know and use frequently this lesbian electrician/electrical contractor but we rarely talk much about personal stuff so I don’t really know how much cheating goes on in that world.

Wow, you are only acquainted with one gay woman in your entire offline life. OK... Huh.

Lesbians are human like everyone else. But there is a hormonal difference when you have 2 women, as compared to 2 gay men. Because of estrogen fluctuation, women are more likely to want sex, including cheating, when ovulating, whereas men's testosterone generally stays at a constant level. Of course, there are reasons to cheat other than sexual ones. Women are more in touch with their emotions, for example. So there might be more emotional reasons to cheat for women, whether they are straight, gay or bi.

Who and how did that happen? You’re the last person I’d think could be brainwashed.

LOL. Thanks, I guess. Yeah, despite being a social rebel, as was my mother, we were born in the olden days. She was born in 1932 and I was born in 1955. Practically the Stone Age. Or maybe the Late Bronze Age. haha We were all brainwashed into the patriarchal ideas of how men and women relate, and how "love" is expressed. We are all socially brainwashed, even to this day, although to a slightly lesser extent, as gender roles are changing, and diversity is more encouraged. The brainwashing comes from our families, friends, media, religion, schools, jobs, you name it. The entire culture, in other words.

How many yrs were you married to him? You met at 19. How long did you date prior to saying I do?

I met him in 1974; we began living together shortly after meeting. We married in 1978. We were married until 2008, then we separated. We divorced in 2011.

Another question is, or was, how long did it take either of you while dating (pre-marriage) or how long after the honeymoon did you discover all these so called cheating offenses?

I began to pick up on the clues soon after meeting him.

Because in my head a jealous possessive person doesn’t really mask that shit during the dating process. They’re either telling you directly when you misstep or they’re off being passive aggressive and pouting, etc.

Yep. I had started dating at 16. I met my ex h at 19. I was exhausted by the dating process and kinda wanted to "settle down." Men are SO difficult and many of them suck so bad. My husband-to-be was funny, cute, sexy and great in bed, often kind, always modest, even humble, generous, musically talented, a leftist liberal (although as a man of his times, he had unconscious misogyny and homophobia), loved the arts and music as I did, was adventurous in many ways, loved to travel, enjoyed museums and books, was very intelligent, friendly, enjoyed entertaining friends and family, had a big fun family I liked, was a hard worker and a good provider, was willing to go to therapy when our relationship needed it (for as much good as that ever did), loved nature, hiking, camping, canoeing, biking, and enjoyed my gardening talents, ate any food I cooked and praised me for it, wanted children and shared parenting theories of mine, supported me in having home births and doing extended breastfeeding and family bed, was interested in a whole foods diet, enjoyed weed and beers to relax with me...

We were well-suited in many ways. He wasn't perfect, of course. (Neither am I!) We got along in many ways. I used to think it was 60% good and 40% not good. It was hard to make the decision to split. Especially for him. He took me for granted and expressed sorrow for his mistreatment of me, but it was too late.

Now I am with Pixi. She has many if not most/all of the great qualities my ex h had. And much less of the negative ones. I am fully satisfied with her and feel so lucky to have found her.

 

[WhatHappened]

This forum seems to have taken a sharp turn. How many cheaters have been told by members that cheating is not polyamory--and usually in rather strong terms that would suggest cheating IS wrong?

How many times on this forum has it been stressed that we are about OPEN HONEST COMMUNICATION. Yet now dishonesty is being defended.

A vital clarification here is that sex is not a 'need.' Highly desirable--but nobody has yet died from lack of sex.

Another important point: most people are speaking as if an 'asexual' partner has decided for all time sex is off the table (as another poster said...insert evil laugh here.) I suspect in most cases, it's more a matter of one time incidents building up without any actual intention...I'm tired tonight...I'm tired...I don't feel well. This doesn't make it any less frustrating for the one who wants sex, but it's also not the deliberate change in rules or 'holding hostage' that it's being out to be.

One poster has stated that even with more kids, more work, she could provide sex, so why can't her friend's wife? I find this a curious statement on a forum where ourselves do not like having society tell us, 'We did monogamy, so can you."

We have no idea how tired this woman really is; if she has a health issue that's causing pain; or what is really going on.

It seems to me that there's a strong self-interest, when one is partner to the cheater, to suddenly defend the lies and deceit that are part of cheating.

And finally, I wonder if anyone defending cheating (because the poor cheater is a victim who's being denied sex at home) has considered the old axiom: LIAR'S LIE. Or If they're lying to her, they'll lie to you, too. This is about the oldest story in the Cheater's Handbook: "I'm not getting sex at home."

Those who go on a cheater's forum might also look at forums for those cheated on. Over and over you'll see the shock at hearing this story told about spouses who were happily having sex 3 or 5 times a week. My XH was going around telling people he never got sex at home, when we were having sex nearly every night. But hey, some sucker somewhere is going to feel sorry for these guys and feel like she's swooping in to save him from that awful wife at home...

 

[WhatHappened]

Violating safe sex agreements can have physical ramifications. …. Cheating on a spouse has no real physical ramifications, other than how the spouse reacts.

A lot of the harm done by cheating is harm to the ego.

Cheating can also have physical ramifications. Bringing home sexual diseases, for example.Bacterial vaginitis.

Some of those diseases can harm future unborn children. I still have a huge issue with my XH risking exposing me to diseases and never telling me--he took away my knowledge that would have led me to take the precaution of being tested to know my children weren't at risk.

I thought we valued informed consent at this forum. Maybe we've changed?

Cheating usually involves emotions. People who are having affairs and sex usually are emotionally involved. So, while it's extreme, my XH's 'friend' reacted in anger when he broke it off, doing some damage to our car (several times) that could have resulted in severe injury or death.

I can guarantee I'm not the first to experience some retaliation. And heck, if we're using novels and TV as evidence, then the Glenn Close bunny boiler character can certainly be offered up.


Whether a thing does physical harm is not the sole criteria, however.

A lot of affairs end up involving spending money on the affair partner. Depending how much that money becomes--that can do damage to the family who is now going without or going into debt.

Stress--when someone is waiting and waiting and waiting for a spouse who is not coming home because they're with the affair partner, and when stories begin to not add up--that causes stress that affects the whole family.

Breaking of trust--this does great damage to a relationship.

I'll add further that (again) LIARS LIE. If they lie about having sex with another person, chances are high they'll lie about other things. In my case, money and debt were also being lied about.

THE BIGGEST QUESTION I WANT TO KNOW: is it okay to break our agreements in relationships other than marriage? If it's okay to break marriage agreements, is it okay to break poly agreements, is it okay to break business agreements, is it okay to break agreements made with hotels not to smoke in their rooms or with twitter and YouTube and this forum itself about what we won't post on their sites?

Mango, you live in a black and white world. Most of us live in the grey.

I think there's room for understanding why people do what they do--do they steal to feed their children or for the thrill of it or because they just want the thing they're stealing. I'm going to be more lenient for the first. However, dismissing someone's views on ethics as 'you think in black and white' and priding oneself on seeing shades of gray can also become an excuse for doing exactly as we please with no regard for how our actions affect -- and harm -- others.

 

[Magdlyn]

This forum seems to have taken a sharp turn. How many cheaters have been told by members that cheating is not polyamory--and usually in rather strong terms that would suggest cheating IS wrong? How many times on this forum has it been stressed that we are about OPEN HONEST COMMUNICATION. Yet now dishonesty is being defended.

You seem upset. First of all, please note how many times members here have said we are not excusing or defending cheating, just explaining it. Early in the thread someone mentioned cheating is a sensitive issue between people who are (ostensibly) practicing monogamy, and between those in Open relationships. I think this thread is doing a great job of showing how black and white and judgmental poly people can be, and also showing how it's possible to build a bridge to cheaters, maybe leading them to polyamory, by not being hateful, accusatory and harsh.

A vital clarification here is that sex is not a 'need.' Highly desirable--but nobody has yet died from lack of sex.

This is wrong actually. Have you heard of the "incel" movement at all? Suicide happens.

Personally, as a person with (currently) a very high libido, while I have not actually died from lack of sex or intimate touch, it has caused depression. Need we only look at the threat of actual physical death as a reason to cheat (for those who are not aware of other options)? That seems short-sighted.

As a side note, in our present culture, men are discouraged from touching anyone, pretty much, unless it's during sex. Women are much more culturally encouraged to do non-sexual touching, to men, to other women, to children. Men are very unlikely to have or make opportunities to touch children, since they are very much more likely to be accused of being predators. The occupation of nursing has only recently been seen as open to men, and I believe the majority of men going into nursing, so far, are gay.

Babies raised without touch develop failure to thrive, and very often die.

Let's not underestimate the naturalness of seeking to be touched, sexually or not. Humans are social animals.

A man can only pet his dog so much, after all.

Another important point: most people are speaking as if an 'asexual' partner has decided for all time sex is off the table (as another poster said...insert evil laugh here.) I suspect in most cases, it's more a matter of one time incidents building up without any actual intention: "I'm tired tonight... I don't feel well."

This doesn't make it any less frustrating for the one who wants sex, but it's also not the deliberate change in rules or 'holding hostage' that it's being made out to be.

I do not see any evidence of that on the thread.

One poster has stated that even with more kids, more work, she could provide sex, so why can't her friend's wife? I find this a curious statement on a forum where ourselves do not like having society tell us, 'We did monogamy, so can you."

We have no idea how tired this woman really is; if she has a health issue that's causing pain; or what is really going on.

If you are referring to me, yeah... I've known my friend for 10 years. He has never lied to me. No reason to start now. He can't talk to his peer friends (also his wife's friends) about this. He loves and respects his wife. He is not "bad mouthing" her to me, just stating the facts, and lovingly hoping her libido increases soon, or ever. I've closely questioned him about this. Is there some resentment about the baby? Some other issue? Fear? All he can come up with is their routine not leaving time for sex, or just her lack of energy and interest (although sometimes she will mention being in the mood earlier in the day, but once the kid is asleep or in someone else's care, she doesn't respond to his advances, or initiate.)

Hmm, but now that you mention it, maybe she is anemic. Maybe there is a thyroid issue. I will ask him if she's had a physical and labs done recently!

I tend to think it's just the end of NRE and being in a rut. Plus the denial of the reality that humans are naturally promiscuous, which increases libido by having variety. But we all could think about women's tendency to be anemic or have thyroid malfunction as a possible cause for low female libido. (Although of course, men can have low libidos too.)

It seems to me that there's a strong self-interest, when one is partner to the cheater, to suddenly defend the lies and deceit that are part of cheating.

And finally, I wonder if anyone defending cheating (because the poor cheater is a victim who's being denied sex at home) has considered the old axiom: LIAR'S LIE. Or If they're lying to her, they'll lie to you, too. This is about the oldest story in the Cheater's Handbook: "I'm not getting sex at home."

Those who go on a cheater's forum might also look at forums for those cheated on. Over and over you'll see the shock at hearing this story told about spouses who were happily having sex 3 or 5 times a week. My XH was going around telling people he never got sex at home, when we were having sex nearly every night. But hey, some sucker somewhere is going to feel sorry for these guys and feel like she's swooping in to save him from that awful wife at home...

No comment on this.

 

[WhatHappened]

I'm not sure where you get the idea I'm 'upset' or for that matter what bearing it has on anything I said.

Yes, I know what the incel movement is, and no, I'm sorry, that doesn't make sex a 'need.' Many millions of people do just fine without sex and those who are committing suicide are not doing it from lack of sex. They're doing from a whole host of other reasons that may include the lack of a sex life. And it's still a choice. To claim that lack of sex causes death is to make a mockery of this whole conversation.

I think a number of people will read this thread and get the impression cheating is being defended when those who say 'you shouldn't cheat' are accused of black and white thinking and being judgmental and cheaters are being called the real victims in this. Perhaps those 'explaining' why people cheat should be more clear. However, we all know why people cheat.

I stand by what I said. Those who enable and take part in the cheating will always defend the cheater and 'explain' away the behavior. Most wives don't really care to have their sex lives discussed and analyzed with other women. It seems to me even if there's no actual sex going on, it's a matter of respect to not be discussing and analyzing another woman's personal life with her husband, without her knowledge.

 

[Evie]

If those women were having their own effective conversations with their husbands (or any gender/non gender pairing you wish) then said husbands wouldn't be turning to other people to vent/for advice.

My friend previously used as an example hasn't cheated on his wife, but he is quite despairing of his situation because the conversations, even the ones had in professional couples therapy, have not yielded any resolutions. He talks with me to vent, I advise him to keep trying to have those conversations because he doesn't want to leave her because the rest of their life together is enjoyable.

Just because I don't condemn cheating doesn't mean I don't advocate for ethical non-monogamy.

BUT (unashamedly but) I also recognise that sometimes cheating is a coping mechanism for a partner who is physically rejected in what was once a physically intimate relationship.

Alongside that, it's likely that that isn't the only intimacy missing from the relationship, and I think if it can't be regained then those people should seriously look at moving on. However this can be extremely difficult when the entanglements are on multiple levels (children, real estate, extended family/in laws, business, financial, etc).

Of course, as Vin pointed out, there are plenty of other reasons people cheat. The variety, the thrill of the chase, the enjoyment of having a secret, the taboo, and sex addiction (e.g. Russell Brand has openly discussed this). This thread has mostly been looking at one case - the sexless nesting relationship. I feel sorry for anyone who is in one of these, I do think they are victims of their partner's change of sexual desire from active to inactive. I've been the perpetrator before. I've been the victim before. Neither is a happy place and I also ended both of those relationships, the former comparatively quickly to the latter, but both were very painful decisions and actions, and I didn't have the level of entanglement so many other people do that complicate the leaving process. I see why someone may find leaving too overwhelming to do. I see why they might choose to cheat. I'm not advocating that it should be uncritically accepted, I'm saying it shouldn't be uncritically condemned.

 

[vinsanity0]

Cheating can also have physical ramifications. Bringing home sexual diseases, for example.Bacterial vaginitis.

Some of those diseases can harm future unborn children. I still have a huge issue with my XH risking exposing me to diseases and never telling me--he took away my knowledge that would have led me to take the precaution of being tested to know my children weren't at risk.

I thought we valued informed consent at this forum. Maybe we've changed?

Cheating usually involves emotions. People who are having affairs and sex usually are emotionally involved. So, while it's extreme, my XH's 'friend' reacted in anger when he broke it off, doing some damage to our car (several times) that could have resulted in severe injury or death.

I can guarantee I'm not the first to experience some retaliation. And heck, if we're using novels and TV as evidence, then the Glenn Close bunny boiler character can certainly be offered up.


Whether a thing does physical harm is not the sole criteria, however.

A lot of affairs end up involving spending money on the affair partner. Depending how much that money becomes--that can do damage to the family who is now going without or going into debt.

Stress--when someone is waiting and waiting and waiting for a spouse who is not coming home because they're with the affair partner, and when stories begin to not add up--that causes stress that affects the whole family.

Breaking of trust--this does great damage to a relationship.

I'll add further that (again) LIARS LIE. If they lie about having sex with another person, chances are high they'll lie about other things. In my case, money and debt were also being lied about.

THE BIGGEST QUESTION I WANT TO KNOW: is it okay to break our agreements in relationships other than marriage? If it's okay to break marriage agreements, is it okay to break poly agreements, is it okay to break business agreements, is it okay to break agreements made with hotels not to smoke in their rooms or with twitter and YouTube and this forum itself about what we won't post on their sites?



I think there's room for understanding why people do what they do--do they steal to feed their children or for the thrill of it or because they just want the thing they're stealing. I'm going to be more lenient for the first. However, dismissing someone's views on ethics as 'you think in black and white' and priding oneself on seeing shades of gray can also become an excuse for doing exactly as we please with no regard for how our actions affect -- and harm -- others.

I think you are going off on a bit of a tangent. I don't see anyone defending cheating. What I'm doing is saying there are many reasons people cheat. Some are valid, some are not.

I certainly don't believe cheating is poly. I don't think there is any connection, other than my belief that humans aren't meant to be monogamous. Of course, not being monogamous does not justify cheating. However, I think it is extremely naive to think the world is a fluffy happy place where everyone communicates perfectly. In some ways that level of communication is socially unacceptable behavior.

Bottom line is there is no cut and dried answer. I do not condone cheating, but do understand that there can be valid reasons for it.

BTW, I don't define a need as something that will kill you if you don't have it.

 

[ElMango]

After reading this thread and participating, I want to share what I've gained from it.

I agree that there are many reasons people cheat, but I find it unacceptable and unethical. Feelings are feelings; not wrong nor right-but our actions can be wrong or right. Cheating definitely, to me, is more of a breach of agreement than say, not having sex anymore. One is a lie, one is an obvious change.
Having had a partner manipulate me emotionally for sex, while not cheating, changed the agreement without me having any idea. He didn't love me, but still loved my body and declined to let me know that because he knew, for me, it was a package deal. It was actively very harmful to me and my mental health. This produces a bias in me.

What counts as cheating can be a grey area if not discussed.

I feel that partners should communicate about needs/wants before going down the cheating road. If no compromise can be reached, think about how to handle that.

I do not feel a cheater is a victim, save from a possible misunderstanding as to what counts.

I view physical touch and sex as needs. Physical touch is a human need for development and lack of touch is physically harmful. Sex itself can be a grey area; what counts as sex to that specific couple? What counts as enough?
My sex life is very important to my mental well being, especially as I get older. Not everyone is wired that way though; so again, grey area.

Sometimes people can't 'have their cake and eat it too' and I feel we [general we] need to really accept that sometimes there is no good outcome.

I think that while the main jist of peoples responses were not intending to defend cheating, I definitely think (myself included) did interpret certain posts as such. Is it possible that this is what is causing such a divide of opinions?

 

[FallenAngelina]

I feel that partners should communicate about needs/wants before going down the cheating road. If no compromise can be reached, think about how to handle that.

It's my experience being married and witnessing many marriages that most people do this - for decades. Cheating often happens because there has been a great deal of communication with little satisfaction.

I also want to point out that cheating often happens for emotional reasons, not just sexual. We'll all agree that women have emotional needs, but don't ever underestimate a man's desire for emotional and intellectual connection. This can be just as powerful a motivator as a sex drive. Long term relationships are loooooong and when these connections are lacking or lagging, people will notice others who can connect. Whose fault is cheating? My position is that it's always the outcome of a co-created relationship. Finger pointing is never helpful. Understanding is where progress is made. Again I will say that it's impossible to understand the experience of a decades long relationship, complete with children, extended family and community property, until you have been involved in one. Most cheaters that I know do it to protect the nest - not just for selfish "acquiring the goods" purposes, but in a sincere effort to protect all concerned. Cheating is not great, we all know that, but it happens left, right and center. I agree with Mags that the poly community is only served by offering a welcoming open minded attitude with an effort to understand. I would be so bold as to say that to reject and shun cheating and cheaters is close minded. Harsh judgement does nothing to benefit this community nor the people who might be open to learning about healthier ways to approach non-monogamy.

 

[SlowPoly]

Again I will say that it's impossible to understand the experience of a decades long relationship, complete with children, extended family and community property, until you have been involved in one.

I’ll go a step further and say our own experiences, no matter how similar the specs seem, are not the same as others’. It may be easy to say what we would do or expect in someone else’s place, but we don’t really know where they’re coming from, and we can’t.

My parents’ marriage was marked (and eventually ended) by cheating. It would be justifiable to demonize the cheater (the other parent really, really tried for healing and reconciliation - the cheater was definitely the non-trier, and admitted it). It might be simplest to create a sharp line somewhere and say stepping over it is always wrong and condemnable and avoidable. But none of that is ever going to apply to what others have brought into their relationship, and the emotional tools and self-awareness they’ve managed to develop throughout their lives.

I’ve done my share of harshly judging cheating. I still call it cheating, when just the word carries the weight of judgement. And I’m still not up for intimacy with cheaters. But I’ve definitely come around to a place of (relative) humility about what I can and can’t know about the choices other people make.

My cheating parent generally expressed appreciation for the way I was living my life. Given the chance, they might have done polyamory poorly. Then again, they might have been more careful with their people’s feelings if they’d had a supportive community and agreements that matched their inclinations. I don’t think they cheated because they were polyamorous by nature. The did, and they probably were, but causation isn’t necessary to establish because the one doesn’t make the other “right.”

 

[ElMango]

Again I will say that it's impossible to understand the experience of a decades long relationship, complete with children, extended family and community property, until you have been involved in one.

I've been with a person for 11 years and have been dating people for an additional 4, is that enough experience?
Lots of people never have children, does that affect the validity of their views on cheating?
I have community property, loads of extended family....

While I agree that no one can know what it is like to live in another persons shoes, this statement comes across as "You can't understand their choices because you haven't leveled up enough, adults only"

Slow Poly-
I’ve done my share of harshly judging cheating. I still call it cheating, when just the word carries the weight of judgement. And I’m still not up for intimacy with cheaters. But I’ve definitely come around to a place of (relative) humility about what I can and can’t know about the choices other people make.

This statement really resonates. No one can know everything about the reasons people make the choices they do; and what their good reason is, is not the same as my good reason.

 

[Vicki82]

Yes, I know what the incel movement is, and no, I'm sorry, that doesn't make sex a 'need.' Many millions of people do just fine without sex

While I agree with the basic principle you are espousing with regard to cheating, I believe that people get to determine what their own needs are in a relationship, period.

Just because you won't die of something doesn't mean it is not a valid need.

 

[WhatHappened]

While I agree with the basic principle you are espousing with regard to cheating, I believe that people get to determine what their own needs are in a relationship, period.

Just because you won't die of something doesn't mean it is not a valid need.

Words mean things. If we get to re-define 'need' to whatever we want it to mean, then I can re-define 'need' to cover my deep desire for more money, and thus defend my decision to take money from someone else.

Do you see the deeper principle here? You go right ahead and define your own need, but that means everyone else gets to define their own needs, too, and then they may do as they please (as per the whole discussion here) to meet those needs--even if it means hurting you.

Perhaps an ex-spouse has a NEED to see his son, regardless of how his behavior affects you (or the son). Perhaps someone with less than you has a NEED for your cash or your car. Maybe they NEED to get to a job interview and feel that they NEED that more than you NEED to get to your appointment to get your nails done.

While I am being a bit (maybe) facetious in some of my examples, I hope that you can see the deeper principle. We must look at how our actions affect others, if we want to be ethical. Re-defining 'need' and thus justifying any action we want to take runs a real risk of turning a blind eye to how we affect others.

No, I'm sorry, but no one 'needs' sex to survive.

 

[Vicki82]

Words mean things. If we get to re-define 'need' to whatever we want it to mean, then I can re-define 'need' to cover my deep desire for more money, and thus defend my decision to take money from someone else.

Do you see the deeper principle here? You go right ahead and define your own need, but that means everyone else gets to define their own needs, too, and then they may do as they please (as per the whole discussion here) to meet those needs--even if it means hurting you.

Perhaps an ex-spouse has a NEED to see his son, regardless of how his behavior affects you (or the son). Perhaps someone with less than you has a NEED for your cash or your car. Maybe they NEED to get to a job interview and feel that they NEED that more than you NEED to get to your appointment to get your nails done.

While I am being a bit (maybe) facetious in some of my examples, I hope that you can see the deeper principle. We must look at how our actions affect others, if we want to be ethical. Re-defining 'need' and thus justifying any action we want to take runs a real risk of turning a blind eye to how we affect others.

No, I'm sorry, but no one 'needs' sex to survive.

Why yes, everyone DOES in fact get to define their own needs. If you're talking strictly of the basic food, water and shelter, then you're the one who has taken the term need and twisted it to uselessness. If everyone has the exact same needs then there is no need for the term "need"

We all get to decide what we NEED in a relationship. For some of us, that will be sex. For some, that will be something else. That's part of determining compatibility.

If your needs aren't compatible, then the relationship isn't going to work. And you can define need in any silly way you like- it's your life. If that's what is meaningful to you, then find a partner who is compatible with those needs.

 

[Magdlyn]

"Need" is defined as something essential or very important.

Or

A thing that is wanted or required.

It is not defined as something that will cause death if we don't get it.

 

[WhatHappened]

"Need" is defined as something essential or very important.

Or

A thing that is wanted or required.

It is not defined as something that will cause death if we don't get it.

I'm sorry, no, 'need' is not defined as 'want.' That's why we have two different verbs.

NEED means REQUIRED. Sex is not required and never once in medical history has it shriveled up and fallen off for lack of getting sex.

 

[WhatHappened]

We all get to decide what we NEED in a relationship. For some of us, that will be sex. For some, that will be something else. That's part of determining compatibility.

If your needs aren't compatible, then the relationship isn't going to work. And you can define need in any silly way you like- it's your life. If that's what is meaningful to you, then find a partner who is compatible with those needs.

And that brings us right back to square one. I completely agree with you on compatibility, but that doesn't change the definition of words.

If you WANT sex in a relationship and you're not getting it, it matters not at all if you call it a need or a want, you end the relationship to go find one that includes what you want.

That you want sex and aren't getting it does not entitle you to lie to your spouse or the one you claim to love.

Be an adult, tell them there's a problem, and tell them up front what you're doing about it.

For all those defending, I mean explaining, cheating -- are you okay with your spouse or partner lying to you and deceiving you?

And I ask again, since nobody has answered: in what other part of your life are you willing to 'explain' breaking an agreement, lying to, and deceiving someone? In business? In your rental or mortgage agreement? In your job terms? In your loan application? In what you tell say about yourself on a dating site? In signed contracts with the guy who's remodeling your home for you?

In what part of your life are you willing to accept someone else breaking the terms of their agreement with you, without telling you?

 

[WhatHappened]

I think you are going off on a bit of a tangent. I don't see anyone defending cheating. What I'm doing is saying there are many reasons people cheat. Some are valid, some are not.

No, Vinsanity, I am not off tangent. I addressed your words, your suggestion that there's no real physical harm in cheating. There most certainly can be physical harm, not only to the unknowing spouse, but if that spouse is a woman, to future children who can be affected, before birth, by any STD's she has contracted from her cheating spouse. If this is a tangent, you took us there. However, I think it's a vital component in the question of cheating and why it's PROBLEMATIC. Ie: a really crappy sh*tty thing to do to your spouse.

When people call the cheaters the 'victims,' that sounds like defense to me. But I guess that's only if words actually mean things.

I'm sorry, I see no 'valid' reason to lie to one who trusts you. The whole notion of polyamory is built on HONESTY and OPEN COMMUNICATION. Yet someone here is claiming there are 'valid' reasons to lie to a partner.

This is not the poly board I knew seven years ago when I joined, and that makes me sad. That the members here stood so strongly by honesty and open communication was one of the things that attracted me to this forum.

 

[ElMango]

And I ask again, since nobody has answered: in what other part of your life are you willing to 'explain' breaking an agreement, lying to, and deceiving someone? In business? In your rental or mortgage agreement? In your job terms? In your loan application? In what you tell say about yourself on a dating site? In signed contracts with the guy who's remodeling your home for you?

In what part of your life are you willing to accept someone else breaking the terms of their agreement with you, without telling you?

^^^This

 

[Magdlyn]

I'm sorry, no, 'need' is not defined as 'want.' That's why we have two different verbs.

You're not "sorry," and you're sticking out your tongue. Check an online dictionary.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/need