Child related issues......

[london]

No, not all women want babies. Many women choose not to have them.

Having said that, I do think that the poster you are responding to is one of the child free people who look with disdain at us breeders, much the same as you're questioning how much of a natural woman she is for opting out of motherhood.

I will say that being in a relationship can enhance or even evoke that feeling of wanting a baby. I don't see anything particularly unusual about wanting a baby with your boyfriend, I just think this is something that should have been solved some time ago. It will be risky bringing a baby into your life that could possibly make your husband feel extremely negatively. It won't be fair on that baby.

You may have to make some harsh choices quite soon. You shouldn't pressure your husband into feeling differently. He's given his Views. Accept them and do what you need to do to fulfil your needs. Do you need your husband more than you need a baby with your boyfriend? Tough question but one you'll probably end up having to answer.

 

[DandGsgirl]

The truth is, you're being manipulated by your husband and your boyfriend. You're caught in the middle of two people telling you what they want, not asking what you want. It's your body. Whose baby you grow in it and whose bed you sleep it in, those are your choices and your choices alone. Other people can offer their preference, but they don't have the right to make demands and threats if they don't get their way.

I think that it is more my Husband telling me what he wants, without giving thought to me and my boyfriend. My Boyfriend would not push me if he did not know that I want the same as him. It is unfair on him to leave his bed very night, but he understands why, and has been very patient so far. My Husband will often stay the night with his Boyfriend, and come back in the early hours and expect me to be in our bed. Not fair!

I don't think this situation is healthy for your husband. It doesn't sound like he's comfortable seeing your relationship right THERE in his face, every day. I'm sure he genuinely believes that he's protecting the kid by not wanting to see you sleeping in two beds, but I think that's also him projecting his own insecurities. Kids don't care where their parents sleep. They care that they're loved and taken care of. Kids don't care who fathers their siblings. They care that the siblings won't replace them and take away their love.

My Husband is very happy with our situation in general. He has no problem with my Boyfriend and I being together as much as we our. The four of us are a good team I think. He is happy with his gay relationship, and is free to go about that as he wishes. I am happy that he is getting what he needs. Obviously it is not something I could ever give him, and he is finally coming to terms with his sexuality. He is also happy knowing that I am getting what I need, something that, equally he was never able to give me. It helps that he has a fetish where he is turned on by my relationship with my boyfriend. He thinks that my Son will become confused, and possibly upset if he sees me in my boyfriends bed. He is also concerned that my Son may mention it in passing to someone else. I think he is wrong! I agree with you, I don't think my son will care. We will find out soon enough though. I have decided that I will be sleeping with my boyfriend after I have spent time in his bed from now on. If my Son does become unsettled or upset, then we can change things back again...........

Ultimately, you need to figure out what you want. You. Not what they want and whose wants you're more worried about. When you figure out what you want, and why, then you need to communicate it to your partners in a way that expresses your needs and feelings.

Anyone who chooses to leave you because your needs aren't important enough to them, isn't worth holding on to.

I agree, and I'm slowly beginning to except that if my Husband wants to leave me when I have my Boyfriends baby, I shall just have to let him go. I want to give my Husband all the love and support that he needs though, as I except that this is a tough thing for a Man to except, and a lot for me to ask.

....

 

[DandGsgirl]

No, not all women want babies. Many women choose not to have them.

I know not all Woman want babies. I did not sugest that they did! I stated that I do, and that it is a natural thing for a couple to want.

Having said that, I do think that the poster you are responding to is one of the child free people who look with disdain at us breeders, much the same as you're questioning how much of a natural woman she is for opting out of motherhood.

I have no idea if nycindie has a child or not, and I'm not suggesting that she looks at "breeders" with disdain either. I'm also not suggesting that she, or any other childless female is not a "natural woman."

I will say that being in a relationship can enhance or even evoke that feeling of wanting a baby. I don't see anything particularly unusual about wanting a baby with your boyfriend, I just think this is something that should have been solved some time ago.

My Boyfriend and I have been in a relationship for two years, and living together for just over one. We did not want a child "some time ago." We want one now!

You may have to make some harsh choices quite soon.

That's true. I have made one already! My boyfriend and I will continue to give serious thought about when we will have our child, and hope to include, and consult my Husband in our plans.

...

 

[london]

It is a natural instinct for a woman to want a baby

So women who do not want babies lack this female natural instinct?

However, loving someone as much as we love each other does lead to wanting to share the most beautiful thing you can share with anyone. I think that is perfectly natural.

And anyone who had the love for their partner that you and your boyfriend have would also want a baby? So that means couples who choose to be child free don't love each other as much as you two do.

I was actually saying that Nycindie has disdain for breeders and although I find your comments dismissive of the child free, she is equally guilty of dismissing the need to breed as selfish and egotistical. That's my opinion.

My Boyfriend and I have been in a relationship for two years, and living together for just over one. We did not want a child "some time ago." We want one now!

And my point is that one should discuss these sorts of issues way before they come up. Mono normative culture tells us that we shouldn't discuss kids and marriage and all that stuff early on. I wholeheartedly disagree. That stuff should be discussed as early as possible so it's clear what needs this potential relationship cannot meet.

 

[SchrodingersCat]

The OP's meaning was clear. Putting words in her mouth that obviously weren't her meaning is antagonistic.

As a child-free woman myself, I didn't remotely get the impression that she was calling me an unnatural woman or lacking in female instincts, or saying Gralson and I love each other less because we've chosen different priorities for our lives. She was simply doing her best to explain the unexplainable whilst being interrogated by people who will never understand.

Frankly, I'm more concerned about people who actually do have "a reason" for wanting kids. Nothing is more natural than having sex and making babies. It's one of the few things left in modern society that's still remotely in touch with Mother Nature. We have to go to extreme measures to avoid pregnancy. The pill, IUD, condoms... those are unnatural things. They require conscious choice and intent. Lacking a specific reason to not have kids hardly makes someone unfit for parenthood.

And my point is that one should discuss these sorts of issues way before they come up.

Depending on your meaning of "come up," either that's impossible (you can't discuss it before you discuss it), or they did (she's not pregnant yet).

She discussed it with her husband in the beginning, at which point he established a boundary: he will not remain in the relationship if she gets pregnant by the boyfriend. But that in no way establishes a claim to her uterus. So she also discussed it with her boyfriend, and they discovered they are both interested in having a child together. So now the three of them will have to work out the consequences.

 

[Nadya]

So women who do not want babies lack this female natural instinct?

From a child free POV: yes, I think so. Logically, it must be a natural instict for a woman to have babies, it must be in the biology. It is how nature works. I do not have that instinct, even though most women do. There might be a good biological explanation for this phenomenon, too.

And anyone who had the love for their partner that you and your boyfriend have would also want a baby? So that means couples who choose to be child free don't love each other as much as you two do.

This is your interpretation, london, the OP did not say this. Nor do I interpret her words this way. She said:

However, loving someone as much as we love each other does lead to wanting to share the most beautiful thing you can share with anyone.

She thinks having a baby is the most beautiful thing that she can think of, and thus she wants to share it with her lover. Perfectly natural and good. I do not think that *me* having a baby would be a beautiful thing to do, and thus I have no desire to drag my men into misery with me. So, I did not take her words as dismissive of the child free.

And my point is that one should discuss these sorts of issues way before they come up. Mono normative culture tells us that we shouldn't discuss kids and marriage and all that stuff early on. I wholeheartedly disagree. That stuff should be discussed as early as possible so it's clear what needs this potential relationship cannot meet.

This part I agree with you, london. It would have been better to discuss the issue of having babies before the urge to have them was current.

 

[Nadya]

Depending on your meaning of "come up," either that's impossible (you can't discuss it before you discuss it), or they did (she's not pregnant yet).

She discussed it with her husband in the beginning, at which point he established a boundary: he will not remain in the relationship if she gets pregnant by the boyfriend. But that in no way establishes a claim to her uterus. So she also discussed it with her boyfriend, and they discovered they are both interested in having a child together. So now the three of them will have to work out the consequences.

Okay, well said. Just before I said I agree with london, but this is good logic Made me think of my own history: me and CJ originally agreed not to have kids. Then he suddenly changed his mind and we had a new negotiation about the particular matter. And that discussion could not have happened before he got the urge to have a child...

 

[london]

I still wholeheartedly believe that what the Op said was dismissive of people who choose not to have children. That's my opinion as I stated before.

She discussed it with her husband in the beginning, at which point he established a boundary: he will not remain in the relationship if she gets pregnant by the boyfriend. But that in no way establishes a claim to her uterus. So she also discussed it with her boyfriend, and they discovered they are both interested in having a child together. So now the three of them will have to work out the consequences.

He established a boundary, yes, that's when Op and boyfriend should have decided how he was going to have kids given she wants to stay in her marriage . He established a boundary, yes, and that's why the Op and her bf shouldn't be pushing him to change his boundaries.

 

[london]

So you have the talk and say one or both people say they don't want children or are happy not to have children, you discuss what will happen if anyone changes their mind. If there is an obvious discord about whether a particular relationship should include children, you don't proceed with anything entangled, emotionally or otherwise, until everyone is on the same page and happy. It isn't rocket science, it's just looking forward and minimising the chance of something so big becoming a point of contention in the future.

 

[DandGsgirl]

I still wholeheartedly believe that what the Op said was dismissive of people who choose not to have children. That's my opinion as I stated before.

I am not dismissive of people who choose not to have children, and neither was anything I said indicative of that!

 

[Vixtoria]

Just to put in my two cents on the whole baby thing. Just because people have different view points does NOT mean they are looking down on 'breeders' or on those that don't want kids.

Really I think you are overlooking an important aspect of poly that also holds true for having kids. WANTING it is not always enough!

I would love more kids, (most of the time) and had always thought it would be great to have a brood of children, I love children! BF talked about us having a baby together. At first joking then we had the serious discussion.

For me, I made sure that I couldn't have more kids. For two reasons. First, they were hurting me. The pregnancies were getting harder and harder, on me and the child, it seemed almost unsafe by the last one so we decided we were done. Hubby and I, (BF wasn't in the picture at this time) Secondly, as much as I loved the idea of any children mentally and physically there was an issue of whether I could raise them. I don't like the idea of having kids raise each other because I don't have the time or energy to do it.

After that discussion, BF decided that definitely no babies! He understood that while it might be nice to think about, a baby together, it was not realistically feasible.

So yeah, it may sound nice, and pull at those heart strings and that ticking clock to have a baby with your boyfriend, have you REALISTICALLY thought of it? Raising the child, raising two together, the age gap, all of that?

Just because we WANT a specific relationship doesn't mean that we can or should HAVE one. Same with a child.

 

[GalaGirl]

What upsets me is that what my boyfriend and I want, is not what my Husbands wants.

Limits reached are limit reached. You are all separate people and will want different things. Right now two wants match, the other is a dealbreaker limit for DH. So you have to accept that if you proceed.

It will possible upset him, and he is a caring, kind and loving man. To see him upset, upsets me, but I cannot help what I want.

Well, you have to measure that for yourself. Nobody can choose for you.

Which want is greater? If nothing changes... your want to be married to DH or you want to have a baby with BF or your willingness to give up some wants?

We have two issues, pretty big ones I admit, but other than that, the four of us are very, very happy living together. My Husband, Son and I do not want to move out, and my Boyfriend does not want us too.

Wants are not needs. This might not be your IDEAL, but if this is a place where you could be ok, could aim for ok enough rather than perfection.

Maybe think of the solutions in order -- good, better, best. And pick the "level" that suits all the people.

I very much want another child, and feel as if I'm ready for that. I cannot help my feeling with regard to wanting the Father to be my Boyfriend, and not my Husband, that is just the way I feel. My Boyfriend wants to be the Dad. It is something we have discussed for many an hour, it is not something we take lightly, and due to my Husbands feelings, we have not yet decided to go ahead with it, although I think it is going to happen, I'm just not sure when.

Before you begin TTC, I suggest you make sure you have all your arrangements in order. If you stay with DH or not, complete the divorce process if you do not stay together before having new baby, be financially stable on your own before new baby in case BF bails and asks you to move out and leaves you single with 2 kids, etc.

Hopefully it pans out like you want it to. But if it does not you are prepared with emergency Plan B all the same. YKWIM? Having 2 dependents is a bigger job than having 1 dependent.

Galagirl

 

[IndieSolo]

It is a natural instinct for a woman to want a baby

No, it is not natural for every woman. That is quite a naive viewpoint. Like many, many other women, I am child-free by choice - and have been so all my life. I never drank that Kool-Aid so I wasn't brainwashed to believe that was my role in life or that it is unnatural not to want kids. I don't look down on people who have kids - I get along well with children and have babysat for many of my friends - but I have observed that far too many women become mothers for the wrong reasons. Most of the time, that means they do it simply because they think it's expected of them (that "natural instinct" garbage), or to carry on a family line, or to prove something. Maybe it's because I live in NYC and have been exposed to so many different situations that I see that so often.

But, nope, never wanted to pop any out myself, and that is mainly due to two things. One - by the time I was 25, I knew the urge to want kids just wasn't there. Two - I also knew I did not have the capacity to take on the enormous responsibility of raising a human being and nurturing their emotional, intellectual, and physical well-being in order to become capable as the next generation of caretakers of this planet - which, along with loving that child unconditionally, is what I feel is the right reason to have a kid. If I were a mother, it would have taken all my energies to do it right, leaving nothing for me to nurture my own well-being. See, what people don't realize is that not every child-free person hates kids and looks at parents as "breeders," a term I hate. I love kids, and have very strong convictions about why a child should be brought into the world, and what it takes to raise a child well - and I knew I could not live up to my own standards.

London has incorrectly said in this thread several times that I look at parents (I find the term "breeders" very derogatory) with disdain. That is not true. I came very close to studying midwifery and becoming a midwife in the 1980s, even though I never wanted to be a mother myself. I think parenting is a very noble act, but modern society and nuclear families has made a mess of it. I also think there is too much focus on giving birth, which makes couples resort to all kinds of expensive fertility treatments - when, if loving and nurturing a child is the goal, then why can't it be any child? I hate how society places such expectations on people that couples feel inadequate if they cannot conceive. I hate how hard it is to adopt in the US, and other countries, because so many kids need good homes.

However, loving someone as much as we love each other does lead to wanting to share the most beautiful thing you can share with anyone. I think that is perfectly natural. Don't you?

No, I do not. When I love someone, I want them to be happy, and for them to know that they are free to be who they are. For me, the most beautiful thing I could give someone I love is definitely NOT a baby! And I wouldn't be in a relationship with a guy who wanted one (I'm past child-bearing, anyway). No, the most beautiful thing I can give someone I love is the space to be who they are, and the knowledge that they can be comfortable being themselves with me, and for me to be true to who I am. I give myself, in fully glaring honesty, and that is the best thing I could give.

OP - I asked "Why?" in this thread when you said you wanted to have your bf's baby, because you're in the midst of so much hard feelings about it from your husband, and it seemed to me your bf was using having a baby as leverage. I asked why because I was curious about what made you want that with the kind of difficult situation you're in. I just said, "Why?" I didn't say, "Eww, why? How could you!!" It was Graviton who made a negative remark about your choice and the environment a baby would come into, and I responded to graviton to explain that I was not judging you, with a little bit about why I asked why. I do think it would benefit the planet if everyone who wanted to have children stopped and really gave it some thought about why. I was not inferring anything about your reasons nor how healthy of an environment yours is for raising a child - we really don't know anything beyond what you've posted here.

However, to say that when a woman loves a man deeply, she just naturally wants to give him a baby almost confirms what I said earlier - that it's largely about proving your value as a woman and how much you love someone.

 

[SchrodingersCat]

She wasn't speaking of every woman, nor every loving couple. She didn't use any words like "every" or "all." She said "a woman." I interpreted that as speaking about herself using the hypothetical third person, probably because she was feeling defensive about having to justify her own biological urge. She may not have believed (and justifiably so) that simply saying "because I'm feeling the biological urge" would have been deemed acceptable by anyone inclined to ask the question in the first place.

Nobody questions the reproductive motives of bonobos and chimps. The idea that a couple million years of divergent evolution has erased all those instincts in the entire human population and fully replaced them with a conscious reproductive decision making process is patently false. For the population in general, that instinct is present. Yes, like any generalization, there are exceptions. But a minority of counterexamples does not make a rule.

There may be some people who lack the urge and still succumb to the social pressure to reproduce, and that is quite unfortunate. But "society's dictates suck" is hardly headline news. A few misguided souls does not negate the very real urge that many women do feel.

Nobody ever asks if you eat for the right reasons, or poop for the right reasons, or breathe for the right reasons. We do these things because they're essential for life. And we make babies because they're essential for the continued existence of the human species. That's how biology works, it's why "reproduction" is listed among the characteristics of "life." Like it or not, biological urge is the main reason why most people "want" babies. There are other factors that go into when and why they "choose" to actually have them, but the biological urge is the underlying reason for the want. You're free to have the opinion that that's a bad reason, but it doesn't change reality.

 

[Inyourendo]

However, loving someone as much as we love each other does lead to wanting to share the most beautiful thing you can share with anyone. I think that is perfectly natural. Don't you?

I do as well. Imo It's the ultimate act of love and something that is something I want to share with a life partner.

 

[willowstar]

Before my boyfriend came back into my life, my husband and I were done having kids. We have three, and the third was a surprise and we really talked it out before deciding to proceed. It was a very hard decision for us, and while we cannot imagine her not being here, there are a LOT of things that have happened to us simply because of that one decision to have a third.

Even knowing that WE were done, I personally felt as though it was really my husband who was really done with kids, and so I told him that if he wanted to not have any more he needed to go for the vasectomy. Which was very hard for him, he avoided it because he was nervous about the procedure, etc. I was happy to be relieved of the responsibility of contraception, and it was a done deal as far as we were concerned.

Then, boyfriend came along. And a few months into our relationship I started to feel the bug again. It was completely a product of my love for him, and definitely some NRE I'm sure. We have had many conversations about it, and if we were both free to do so we would probably go ahead and have one more child with each other. But, we are not free to just do that. My husband does not want any more babies to be responsible for (in the house, if we continue to live together he would obviously be present for that.) Also, boyfriends wife has clearly stated that she is not okay with him getting me pregnant. So, we have agreed that it is not an option for us right now. We have not closed the door, we are just knowing that it is a WANT that may never come to fruition. I am also 44 years old, and just took my oldest on her first college tour. Those are some damn realistic things to consider. I have become clear that I dont want to have a baby with him unless we can really do that together. Meaning he can live with me and be here full time to share parenting. Anything other than that is just selfish and not fair to my husband, or his wife.

So, talking about things beforehand really only helps to let people know where you stand "at that time". I dont think we can say for sure that those opinions or boundaries will always be in place. I was very clear in my own mind that I was not having any more. But in reality, I was not having any more with my husband. Which I definitely did not know at the time, and my change of heart was only due to a change in circumstances. In fact, my boyfriend is probably the only other person in my life that I would ever consider having another child with, due to our shared history. I would not consider doing that with someone I just met now and became involved with, even if it became a life partnership.

Of course, that is how I feel today....

 

[SchrodingersCat]

Even knowing that WE were done, I personally felt as though it was really my husband who was really done with kids, and so I told him that if he wanted to not have any more he needed to go for the vasectomy. Which was very hard for him, he avoided it because he was nervous about the procedure.

Heh. When I suggested a vasectomy to Gralson, his response was "Really? Are you sure?" and I said yes. He practically fell over his feet running to the phone to make the consultation.

 

[Inyourendo]

Lol yeah nate wanted one after we had our first daughter but it wasn't until after I was pregnant with our second child that I agreed to it