Coping with Asexual primary partner

burnay76

New member
Looking for insight on a complex issue - maybe someone has come up against something like this.

I am married 11 years, together 18, with my wife. We have had an open relationship in the form of me having a "hall pass" for most of that time. My wife identifies as Asexual and felt it only right to allow me to seek things she wouldn't give (very often). I never used that hall pass until we broached the topic of poly. I was never comfortable with casual sex but very much interested in multiple deeper relationship. She discovered the term asexuality around the same time and this led her to feeling normalized and able to swear off sex and romance pretty much all together. I think this opened her to the idea of poly for me.

Currently I am only in a relationship with her though I have dated on several occasions. I have been successful in finding friends but not sparking lasting romances.

I feel the primary relationship is not meeting my needs in any real way other than we do a great job of raising two kids, maintaining a household, etc. I feel it takes away from the possibility of forming a more meaningful primary relationship. She is very much content to have a sexless and aromantic marriage, live under the same roof, sleep in the same bed - frankly appear happily monogamous for all outside appearances. I want to cuddle and have great sex and talk sweetly with the person I sleep next to 365 days a year. She has very little interest in any of this. I always knew this but it has progressively become more of an issue.

I used to live on righteous anger about the whole thing. Maybe that is what got me by. In the poly mindset I don't have that anger and so I find myself dealing with harder emotions like loneliness.

So the problem? I love her terribly. I really do believe that no one should be expected to be your everything. She is great for the things we share. Basically I love her for being an awesome co-parent. It just feels like she is getting in the way. I hate feeling like that about her. I feel guilty because she is just being her. It also doesn't help that I find her amazingly beautiful and my attraction has not dwindled one bit in those 18 years.

This becomes all the more problematic as I find it's a pretty small poly dating pool (even in a bigger city like San Diego). This has opened me to the idea of considering conscious monogamy as something that might make me happier than multiple dead end attempts at poly relationships. It certainly blows the dating pool wide open. I have to leave her for that - and that sounds awful because my heart will then always have a hole in the shape of her.

It really sucks when I write it all down and look at it. I wonder if I just need to be more patient in finding someone that is right for me and poly. If it might be possible to restructure our relationship into something that will be less hierarchical so I can have a fulfilling relationship that doesn't start with the "secondary" label. Maybe she should just be a friendly ex-wife and co-parent.

Insights? Thanks.
 
You've acknowledged the number 1 thing here. That even if you were to have other relationships, your availability is limited by this relationship and obstructs the depth of your other relationships. This relationship isn't working for you because it's place of priority in your life means that is takes up a lot of resources for not so much in return.

If your partner also acknowledges this and feels similar about wanting to sustain what is good about your intimate relationship, they'll perhaps see polyamory as a way for you to become "secondary" partners as well as co-parents. I definitely think you have to disentangle some of your shared commitments like living together so you're avaliable for nesting relationships.

Either way, regardless of whether your spouse thinks it's working as it is, it isn't. The relationship isn't fulfilling for you and is preventing you from being fulfilled. It could contribute to your fulfilment if you had a nesting relationship that included affection and sex.
 
Maybe she should just be a friendly ex-wife and co-parent.

Why struggle with poly, when what you really want is a spouse who is all-in, in every way that you want to be all-in, as well? Many of us love our ex spouses, but if one of us is not all-in, what's the point of hanging on to the marriage? "For the kids" is a lame reason. When we do that, we're just showing them how to live a half a**ed life. In my experience, the truly loving and healthy thing to do is to release each other from marriage vows if one partner is not all-in so that both can go on to find partners that are. Poly just seems like a band aid in this situation and not what you truly want.
 
I am sorry you struggle. :(

Maybe she should just be a friendly ex-wife and co-parent.

I would agree. You don't have to stop loving and caring about her.

But it sounds like you have to stop trying to do poly in order to avoid breaking up. It sounds like you thought poly would "fix it" so you could have skip breaking up and still get a partner to cuddle with and stuff.

But the reality is that you want spouse who is this:

I want to cuddle and have great sex and talk sweetly with the person I sleep next to 365 days a year.

And you know this:

She has very little interest in any of this.

You guys are actually not compatible for marriage. And doing poly while married to her doesn't change that part. You still are not compatible for marriage together.

She is very much content to have a sexless and aromantic marriage, live under the same roof, sleep in the same bed - frankly appear happily monogamous for all outside appearances.

She might be ok with it like going through the motions of marriage. But you are NOT. So... might be best to stop doing the part that doesn't work -- the ill fitting marriage. Doing wonky poly when you don't really sound like you WANT poly? That's another ill fitting thing. It sounds like you wanted poly to be the bandaid thing so you would not have to end the marriage. Then in practice you found out that no... poly did not "fix it."

It just feels like she is getting in the way. I hate feeling like that about her. I feel guilty because she is just being her.

Why is it ok for her to just be her and you can't just be you? A person who doesn't want asexual marriage? :confused:

You might also have to stop telling yourself this story:

I have to leave her for that - and that sounds awful because my heart will then always have a hole in the shape of her.

I get you might be sad and grieving over upcoming changes you may have to make in order to be living more authentically and free from anger and stuff. Anticipatory grief.

But you don't need to make it HARDER telling yourself stories like that.

It could be

I have to leave her for that - and that sounds awful because I'm going to grieve and be sad for a while. But I know my heart can hold space for her and our kids AND me so all of us can have our needs met. Without anyone being thrown under the bus.

Right now? I could be wrong. But you sound like you've been throwing yourself under the bus. Like trying to bend yourself into pretzels over it all. You've been angry about that... and are getting tired of feeling angry.

Kinda like... SOMETHING has to change. Otherwise it IS lonely... participating in a marriage that doesn't really fit you or meet your needs.

I really do believe that no one should be expected to be your everything. She is great for the things we share. Basically I love her for being an awesome co-parent.

And you sound like you kinda know what has to change -- ending the marriage part of it.

You can still enjoy the great things you share. Friendship, coparenting, etc. It's ok to be good exes and friends and coparents.

I just don't think it is ok to KNOW that this is an ill-fitting and not really compatible marriage and keep on doing that ANYWAY. For what? That sounds damaging to both people. :(

Galagirl
 
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I though long and hard about the band aid thing before I brought up poly. It was my idea. I always identified as poly at some level since college 25 years ago but left that to ride the relationship escalator. It did well for me. I've built a successful medical practice with her help. Juggling poly through school and the first years of my career would have been impossible. She spent a lot of time waiting for me to come home late at night from the library or being gone for days on clinical rotations.

Would I accept monogamy if a magic wand made this relationship everything I wanted? That would be hard. I've also now had the chance to be open about and discover my bisexuality and I don't want to suppress that identity. I also like poly people and poly culture. I'm kinky too and it's allowed me to connect with people on that level.

Could I make conscious monogamy work? Maybe. If the alternative was strings of less emotionally involved relationships. Heck, I did it for 18 years by default. I can't see it being my first choice.

Disentanglement makes sense to me. I do wonder how hard it is to ride the escalator back down a bit.
 
Hello burnay76,

You seem to be saying that you do want to leave your wife, and you don't at the same time. Poly does not fix this dilemma for you, you have to decide, you said you want someone to cuddle and have great sex with and sweetly talk with to be the person you sleep with 365 days a year. That is the same thing as saying that you do not want to sleep with your wife anymore. She is not the person to fulfill your needs. Breaking up with her would give you and her both a chance to find the kind of spouses that you need. It sounds like she needs an asexual husband, or at least a husband who would be contented with poly and (a) secondary partner/s.

It occurs to me that the biggest complication here may not be the problem of whether to leave your wife, but rather what to do about your two kids. I assume you'll still want the kids to be in your life regardless of whether you divorce. That means that whomever you end up with, that (new) person will have to share your time with your kids. This may shrink the dating pool for you. Prospective partners may want/expect to have you all to themselves. On the other hand, you may need to be open to a relationship with someone who, like you, has kids from a previous marriage.

You said you could see being friendly exes and co-parents as a possibility. Could you still be your wife's friend after divorcing her? Could she still be your friend? I suppose you could consider separating without divorcing, but that might complicate things for new potential partners and thus shrink the dating pool. It seems to me that both of you need a fresh start.

These are some of my thoughts anyway.
Regards,
Kevin T.
 
I think I may have misspoke. I'm not saying I want to sleep by the same person 365 days a year. However, if I am in that dynamic I need that person to be all those things.

My ideal dynamic is triad or quad. I abandoned that for many reasons though. It worked for me briefly (before meeting my wife) but there are 2 or 3 others that have to have it work too. The logistics there was a nightmare.

I have this gut feeling I am not using poly to solve the problem but I invite being challenged on that. Poly created this dilemma of being able to love her for who she is and still love others. I probably could and would have done the miserable unfulfilled mono thing for a long time. Getting a taste for connecting with others has changed me, but she still fills me with joy frequently, and I don't want to give that up. I am 100% in love with her and I struggle with whether I would accept a sexless aromantic life if it was the only way to keep her in it. I really might... but I don't want to and she is not going to make me do that.

Hence the ride down the relationship escalator, if it can really work, seems optimal. She is supportive to the point of giving me an intimate and sexual life for many years - though it was infrequent it was far more frequent than she wanted. My anger before was misplaced, my loneliness now is legit. We've liberated each other to be who we are.... it's just a mess with what we've become together since it creates all kinds of barriers and.... well, I've yet to follow the first rule of Poly.. communicate. I'm trying to sort out my feelings before I take this to her. She may decide it's worth stepping up the game together rather than deescalate or split. I don't know.

We communicate great regarding dating, sex or potential sex with other people. We've worked through our feeling about that. That was the easy part. We struggle communicating each other's feeling about the other. 18 years of doing it wrong is hard to overcome.
 
Hmm. I think from your wife's point of view, she IS "all-in" in the marriage. (But that doesn't mean you two need to stay together forever).

You sound quite poly and you sound like you love your wife and want to stay with her. You also sound lonely, and frustrated with the poly dating scene.

I think you're right that you need to change the "poly model" you are using (the hierarchical model in which she is your primary and anyone else has to be secondary). I think you need to "de-couple" from your wife in some ways, or retreat back "down" the relationship escalator, so to speak.

Maybe start with trying separate bedrooms? Cultivating the idea that you are two separate people with individual needs, rather than two people performing traditional monogamy?

You need more freedom & autonomy to find other sustainable, serious relationships. Maybe a long-term goal would be living apart from your wife so you have more room in your life for other partners?

I guess it has to start with communicating more with your wife. She needs to know how unhappy you are with the status quo. Can she envision you with another serious partner? Would she want the chance to find an asexual, aromantic partner of her own?
 
Thank you for more info.

I have a hard time with no names. I'm gonna call your wife "Apple." If you want a different nickname I'll go with it.

So you ARE poly. You just are tried of doing poly like THIS. And you sound like you don't want to be in an asexual marriage with Apple. She might be happy going along like that, but you are not.

Like if you ARE going to be a married poly person? You don't want to be in a sexless, aromantic marriage. The marriage shape YOU like is something else.

So... Apple is not compatible for marriage. Might still be compatible for being one of your poly partners and also your coparent.

But you have to ASK Apple what she's actually up for and is not up for. Like... lay the cards on the table plain.

I've yet to follow the first rule of Poly.. communicate. I'm trying to sort out my feelings before I take this to her. She may decide it's worth stepping up the game together rather than deescalate or split. I don't know.

In the end if YOU don't want to be in an asexual marriage, if she's changing who she is just to keep the marriage going artificially... would you be happy with that? :confused:

Then you guys aren't really free to be who you actually are. It just changes the person who pretzels from you to her. :(

We communicate great regarding dating, sex or potential sex with other people. We've worked through our feeling about that. That was the easy part. We struggle communicating each other's feeling about the other. 18 years of doing it wrong is hard to overcome.

Well, the more you talk here the clearer it gets to me. To me it sounds like...

Apple... I love you a lot. I love you for who you are. I love being coparents. I'm 100% in love with you. You fill me with joy.

We are currently practice poly and asexual marriage.

I'm happy with the poly part. I've become more authentic there. I've had the chance to be open about and discover my bisexuality and I don't want to suppress that identity. I also like poly people and poly culture. I'm kinky too and it's allowed me to connect with people on that level.

This new knowledge has lead to a different struggle. Now I struggle with whether I would accept a sexless aromantic marriage if it was the only way to keep you in it. I really might... but I don't want to and I know you are not going to make me do that.

I want to talk about how to remain poly partners but let the marriage part go. Live authentically in all areas rather than just some.

Could you be willing to talk to me about what untangling some might look like? Live together but separate bedrooms? Separate next door apartments? Something else? Would you even be up for that? What are the things that YOU want in Life? "

Speak your truths. Give her space to speak hers. Sort out what matches. Lean IN and not away.

We struggle communicating each other's feeling about the other. 18 years of doing it wrong is hard to overcome.

When it is ALL hard? You get to PICK your hard.

What's harder:

  • Learning to talk to her honestly and authentically?
  • Or hanging around in an asexual marriage that is not actually compatible and dealing with all the angry/lonely feelings with "no end in sight?"

If it were me? I'd plump for more authentic living/communicating. At least then there's hope of things getting a bit better with you and Apple. And def getting a bit more square with yourself.

Galagirl
 
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I am married 11 years, together 18, with my wife. We have had an open relationship in the form of me having a "hall pass" for most of that time. My wife identifies as Asexual and felt it only right to allow me to seek things she wouldn't give (very often). I never used that hall pass until we broached the topic of poly. I was never comfortable with casual sex but very much interested in multiple deeper relationship. She discovered the term asexuality around the same time and this led her to feeling normalized and able to swear off sex and romance pretty much all together. I think this opened her to the idea of poly for me.

For the sake of the timeline your wife’s aromantic and asexual tendencies were known and demonstrated during the 7 yrs courtship which was the reason for the hall pass ?

And it was at the time of the discussion of you having a poly relationship is when she “ came out “ as asexual. Is that fairly recently or is that something that happened yrs ago?


She is very much content to have a sexless and aromantic marriage, live under the same roof, sleep in the same bed - frankly appear happily monogamous for all outside appearances. I want to cuddle and have great sex and talk sweetly with the person I sleep next to 365 days a year. She has very little interest in any of this. I always knew this but it has progressively become more of an issue.

I used to live on righteous anger about the whole thing. Maybe that is what got me by. In the poly mindset I don't have that anger and so I find myself dealing with harder emotions like loneliness.

Was there a time she wasn’t content living like that ?? Did she seek counseling or sometime of medical help ? Generally when there is resentment and anger ( righteous ) it’s a recipe for couples counseling and or separate counseling was that ever explored.

So the problem? I love her terribly. I really do believe that no one should be expected to be your everything. She is great for the things we share. Basically I love her for being an awesome co-parent. It just feels like she is getting in the way. I hate feeling like that about her. I feel guilty because she is just being her. It also doesn't help that I find her amazingly beautiful and my attraction has not dwindled one bit in those 18 years.

IMO many many people use poly to facilitate what they settled for. They’ve settled for x or Y and then the cobble together other relationships to supplement the missing peices.
 
I appreciate the feedback, even the stuff I don't want to hear.

I broached this with her and it's a bit messy.

Yes, she found her asexual identification shortly after I suggested poly. She quickly realized the only thing she has less interest in than sex and romance with me is sex and romance with someone else. That's when she learned about asexuality. I guess that puts me in a poly/mono configuration by default.... and a sexless/aromantic one at that. It's still loving though and that's the confusion. She even expresses frustration and desire to develop her sexuality but then says "it will happen if it happens" so there's no motivation for active change. I know that sounds weird but there are certain kink elements that fascinate her but she is too reserved to explore. Light BDSM is one of the few things that really does get her feeling sexual - on rare occasions.

Tried therapy, looked into medical. I do psychiatry for a living. She has had 3-4 dozen sexual partners by early 20's and then became my mono partner (she turned 40 the other day) and has had a lot of hurt around sex so this probably plays a big role. The fix hasn't been found, and usually in these cases it never is.

She points out to me that my current concern amounts to "changing the rules." I guess she really saw this as simply a load off her shoulders and I would just be happier being able to date around town. The understanding she had is that, no matter what, the family and her would always come first - end of story. She suggested my problem is that I'm having trouble finding others to form relationships with. Frankly, I'm not seriously looking. I date, but that's about it.

I threw out a hypothetical to close the relationship and work on us and stay closed or even open later? She's not interested because she likes having the pressure off and doesn't want to go back to that.

I realized in her mind deescalation is apparently tantamount to complete separation in her book. It sounds like poly was just "hall pass plus" huh? Maybe poly is her band aid and I missed that signal because I was so excited to actually be me.

It wasn't an ugly discussion, but boy are we on different channels. At this point we are going to work on trying to reconnect as people (you grow apart in 20 years) while I teach her to manage life on her own. Maybe we grow closer, maybe not. She is very dependent on me to manage the logistics of life and would be lost. I can wait to form a serious connection until she can stand on her own (we are in same rented house for a year so we have time). I can't throw her out of the nest so to speak until she can fly - Helping beyond that seems out of reach as being a partner in any position other than primary is seemingly not an option for her. I can respect that position but it's going to hurt a lot.

I guess this kind of closes the thread. I'm sure I'll have more poly probs in teh future.Thanks folks.
 
No prob, let us know if we can help in the future.
 
Glad the board helped you have the needed talk. I'm also glad the talk wasn't ugly. And now you have a clearer understanding of where she stands with it. Sounds like you are going to stick with being married, and practicing poly.

Galagirl
 
Stay married for a while as I disentangle slowly, yeah. Teach her more self sufficiency during that. I have a vested interest in her doing well and being happy - we will be raising kids together for at least the next 14 years.

Practice poly? Maybe if the right opportunity comes along. I'm mostly just going to work on me through this coming year.

I don't think when the time comes next year to determine where we live that the decision will be to live together and that, in her mind, is the end of the relationship and we will simply co-parent. Divorce (hopefully friendly) seems fairly inevitable. It's a bit hurtful to hear that essentially your value as a partner is that you live under the same roof and are useful. It sounds like the love she expresses is rooted in convenience and dependence. I'm pushing that aside because I know she is entrenched in mono thinking and I'm probably overthinking it. She grew up in a home where her mom dated a married man and was the secret mistress for 15+ years. He played both sides to make them feel like they were his true love. I think she thought it would be like that.

So I guess at the expense of not actually closing out this thread, How would you start disentanglement? Knowing the relationship almost certainly has an expiration date - do we maintain the affection and physical aspect of the relationship over the next year or truly try to start living as just roommates raising kids? Keep in mind I hold this glimmer of hope we can salvage a relationship at some level after disentangling.

To complicate it further, the one thing she is willing to do is work on kindling more affection (though she sees no drop off and says it's my perception) but working on sex is a non-starter (we tried, it triggers all kinds of trauma and I get and respect that). If I can rekindle a relationship that is loving and affectionate, even with minimal sex, I kind of think I can find happiness there. My primary emotional needs are met at home and then, since she is absolutely okay with me being poly, I can enjoy the culture and explore more casually with other people and feel okay with it. Then I start to think that holding on to that glimmer is just going to cause more strife.

Oddly, her friends frequently comment on what a great marriage she seems to have compared to theirs and they are jealous. We are picture perfect upper class suburbia. The irony!
 
So I guess at the expense of not actually closing out this thread, How would you start disentanglement? Knowing the relationship almost certainly has an expiration date - do we maintain the affection and physical aspect of the relationship over the next year or truly try to start living as just roommates raising kids? Keep in mind I hold this glimmer of hope we can salvage a relationship at some level after disentangling.

That is something you only guys can answer -- the affection part.

The rest might be practical things. As you say... her learning to stand more on her own two feet. Practical things like each having their own bank account. Each having responsibility over something -- power, water, cable, internet, credit cards, etc -- so it is not all one person. And when you move, each one has roughly half of them to close out.

To complicate it further, the one thing she is willing to do is work on kindling more affection


If I can rekindle a relationship that is loving and affectionate, even with minimal sex, I kind of think I can find happiness there. My primary emotional needs are met at home and then, since she is absolutely okay with me being poly, I can enjoy the culture and explore more casually with other people and feel okay with it. Then I start to think that holding on to that glimmer is just going to cause more strife.

Maybe cross that bridge when you get to it? Since you don't plan on poly dating just yet and you want to work on some disentanglement since you are thinking about living separately next year?

Galagirl
 
My suggestion, since you're still figuring out the emotional entanglement part and not sure if you should hang onto the glimmer or not, is maybe to not make a decision about that just yet. Instead, focus on the other aspects of disentangling. Does your wife work? Figure out how you're both going to disentangle financially and how she can manage her own finances. Are there other important things that she has never had to manage and needs to learn about, like dealing with insurance, healthcare paperwork, taxes, knowing when the car needs to be serviced, etc. Handle the other aspects of making sure that if she had to live on her own, she could do so successfully. As those things play out, you may find that you've had more time to really mull over what's important to you from the emotional side of things.

Honestly, even if you still wanted to show affection or be physical or whatever, if you intend to stay poly, then isn't that fine? As long as you both know what that means in that you both accept that continuing to show affection isn't some sort of signal that you're staying primary partners, then there are no "rules" as to how you HAVE to do this. It's more a matter of figuring out what makes sense for the both of you based on your wants and needs.

Also, please make sure that you're not dismissing the things that you want just because you think they aren't needs. Wants are still very important in life!
 
Awesome. I like the feedback on not thinking too concretely where things will end up.

Disentanglement is going to be a bear. She has been a stay at home mom, no income, for 5 years. I have managed everything. She is a brilliant scientist in her own right and can easily support herself - just not the life I have given her. As long as she is the mother of my children I will make sure she wants for nothing - so financial entanglement of some sort is very likely to be ongoing beyond any romantic relationship. Consider it the worlds best child support package as she will no doubt bear much of that burden as I often travel for work. Besides, I credit her with much of the success in my life and feel she has a right to live the life we worked to build. I bear some responsibility for all this. Every time we had relationship hiccups we accelerated the relationship escalator to try and fix it. We are dealing with getting to the top floor now.

For years I talked about a triad (probably "v" shaped with all partners equal) under the same roof being the perfect arrangement for us. I've always loved the idea of more adults (and even more children) in a home. Tribe is very comforting to me. My wife loves managing the logistics of family life and running a household, she is the biggest homebody you'll ever find. I have that side too but I also have a side that craves adventure and new experiences. I have though we would be complimented by someone free-wheeling and also provide that person a sense of stable ground. This is not really something she is up for trying to do (even if there was someone out there) but it shows where she fits into my perfect scenario... and that makes letting her go hard.
 
If you're ultimately looking into disentanglement, but also want to co-parent and enjoy spending time together, etc. If the finances support it, would it ever make sense to live in a duplex where you each lived in a different side? Or live in houses next door to each other or down the street? Basically, it would be super convenient for co-parenting as kids can easily go back and forth, or you guys as parents can also easily go back and forth and spend time at each other's places.... BUT it would mean that you would really have your own place that if you wanted to have a different "primary" partner, you could live with someone else and have a stable household there too where they aren't going to forever feel like they're just always "on the side" from your main family.

I think it's respectable and reasonable to want to still provide for your family even if you separated or divorced. A SAHM is still someone who is working hard for their family. I more just meant that eventually you may want to agree on some sort of reasonable budget, and then she should learn to manage that money and pay her own bills within that money, etc if she's never actually had to manage finances.

My partner and his wife divorced after he and I had been together for a few years. It was a very amicable split and we're all still friends. And while she did work and make money, she made less than him, but was actually the primary spender between the 2 of them, yet he was the main person who took care of the bills and budgets. So they also had to do a sort of slow dis-entanglement over the course of about 6 months where she had to really start tracking her spending compared to her own income in preparation for learning to live off of just her money. It was an eye opening experience for her, but also probably very liberating since it provided her with more independence. So, I think the money management thing doesn't have to be about saying "screw you, go make your own money" and is more about wanting to help a partner develop responsible money management skills so that they can succeed. Like you said before, helping her fly from the nest rather than pushing her out. I used finances as the example, but I think that really applies to any area of life skills and logistics that someone is going to have to deal with as a "single" person. And assuming that you guys do eventually separate and it does stay amicable, it's not like you'll never be there to lend a hand.
 
I could swing the duplex idea but not with an ocean view (I guess that's something she might have to give up). If we part, and maintain only a coparenting connection, I do want to create enough distance that it would not scare off a mono partner. I am not averse to conscious monogamy if the right person presented. I'm just done with the " I will love you and only you no matter what, no matter how miserable." I'm more "I am wired to love many people but, so long as we can continue to fulfill each other in a closed system, communicate our needs honestly, I will reserve my love only for you." Some might find that wishy-washy poly but my opinion is that there is a place in polyamory for conscious monogamy.
 
Re:
"Some might find that wishy-washy poly but my opinion is that there is a place in polyamory for conscious monogamy."

I agree, just because I am poly, does not mean that I have to be 100% poly, I can still be content with monogamy under the right circumstances.
 
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