Cumulative Rage from Past Traumas?

[Arius]

The first time my first poly partner (J) had sex with someone other than me, we had two rules:

1. She would use condoms.
2. She would check in with my via phone early the next day.

She violated both of these agreements. When we eventually checked in after she spent an entire weekend as basically a missing person, she told me they hadn't used condoms. She was not on any birth control and I can't imagine her having an abortion, even though she was pro-choice. So in addition to risking getting an STI, she risked having his baby.

I was livid, and devastated. I would have walked out on her if I'd had somewhere else to stay. She damaged my trust horribly, and I carry that lack of trust with me to this day.

-------


That was 2010. Fast forward to 2016. J is out of my life. I have a new partner, T.

A few months ago, my partner of five years (T) was dating a guy (M). They had sex. The next time I saw my partner, I asked her if they'd been "safe." She assured me that they had. Her and I had sex.

T and I are fluided bonded. One of the only boundaries I have is that we use condoms with other people. This boundary is crucially important to me, and I'm sure I had communicated this to her. When I asked if she'd been "safe" with M, I meant - had they used condoms? (I've since learned to ask explicitly "did you use condoms?")

A few days later, she was upset. Turns out M was involved in a fight with his two other partners because the sex T and M had was completely unprotected. They'd fluid-bonded without bothering to check in about it with their other partners. Like it was no big deal. She assured me that he got tested regularly and used condoms with his other partners. That's what she'd meant by "safe."

I was quite upset about the fluid-bonding, for a number of reasons. For one, it reminded me of the past trauma i mentioned with my first poly situation. For two, I had assumed that we would talk about it before including other people in our fluid-bond. But that was an assumption. I don't think I had ever thought to verbalize that need. So I couldn't be mad about that, even though I was.

For three, I thought fluid-bonding was something special - even sacred - between the two of us. Something we would only do with trusted long-term partners. Apparently not. I felt threatened and diminished.

I expressed my feelings about this, but quickly realized I didn't have much of a reason to be mad, since I guess I hadn't clearly expressed my needs to her. I did my best to let it go. It occurs to me now that I may have just repressed my feelings because she didn't want to hear them.

She ended things with him soon after that.


---

That was a few months ago.
Fast forward to now.

One of our mutual friends is dating M. Last week I came home after a long day and found him in the apartment I now share with T. T, M, and our mutual friend were hanging out. All I could think was how much I wanted M to get the f*** out of my space. I very nearly threw him out, but I couldn't think of a rational, good reason for this. He's a really nice guy. He didn't really do anything wrong. I went into a rage at the sight of him and isolated myself in our bedroom until he left.

(I should mention that I'm bad at hiding my feelings. Especially when I'm tired, which is all the time because I have CFS/ME.)

Last night, T and I made plans to go to karaoke. She invited M (and a few other friends) to join us. I felt super awkward, barely made eye contact, and left early.

T came home drunk and woke me up around 2:30am to ask if M could stay over on the pull-out couch because he was too drunk to get himself home safely. I was immediately pissed off and very uncomfortable with the idea, but if I said "No" a) I would be sending him out into the world drunk, which I felt bad about even though it was his choice, and b) he would know I had said No and I would end up looking like an asshole. So I agreed.

Then I laid awake for 3 hours trying to sleep and listening to them drink and hang out. I was paranoid that I was going to over-hear them having sex. One of my boundaries is that I don't want to see or hear anything she does with others unless we're having a 3some. I trust her to respect my boundaries when she's sober. I worry about it when she's drunk.

In the end, they didn't have sex. She came to bed.

The next morning, I was up for about 4 hours before he woke up and left. I was uncomfortable the whole time. Again, all I wanted was for him to GTFO of my space. I couldn't even look at him. I was livid. And yet, I couldn't justify being a dick to him. I don't even really know why I was so mad.

I spent most of the day in a rage.

When T and I reconnected that evening, I told my partner I was angry that she had invited him over at the last minute without us talking about it first. She thought I had no right to be mad at him and that there was no good reason not to invite him to sleep over. She wants to be able to be spontaneous and invite people over. I want us to check in prior to extending invitations. In the end, we agreed that she wouldn't invite M over until I had figured out my anger towards him and resolved it.

As I write this, I know that the thing I need to tell her is that a) I need her to check in before inviting people over in the middle of the night for drunk sleep-overs and b) if she can't respect my boundaries, we shouldn't be living together.

I still don't get why I'm so mad at M. I actually feel violently enraged every time I see him.

I'm introspective and usually remarkably adept at understanding where my emotions are coming from. But this time, I'm at a bit of a loss. My feelings seem completely unreasonable and out of proportion to the actual situation. Has anyone else experienced this? Thoughts/theories?

I suspect I may be transferring anger over past hurts onto him. But could that really explain the depth of my feelings now?

 

[IndieSolo]

Arius, you are a nice guy. You're considerate to a fault. I think the explosive rage keeps coming up because you keep judging yourself for it and stuffing it down.

I re-read a past thread of yours about T. I assume it's the same person. From what I read there and here in this thread, it seems she has issues with drinking, with communicating, and doesn't see eye to eye with you on sexual health matters. And if she won't talk to you about something, she blames you for feeling bad about the fact that you brought it up. And so you try to contain your anger, and you let her walk all over you, but now the anger is spilling out -- because it was never allowed to resolve itself. You won't let yourself feel what you feel, so it keeps getting triggered.

I think your solution -- to tell her that if she won't respect your space then she should move out -- is a good one. Now, will you be able to do that, or will you back down?

 

[Tinwen]

I still don't get why I'm so mad at M. I actually feel violently enraged every time I see him.

I'm introspective and usually remarkably adept at understanding where my emotions are coming from. But this time, I'm at a bit of a loss. My feelings seem completely unreasonable and out of proportion to the actual situation. Has anyone else experienced this? Thoughts/theories?

I think you actually might be angry with her, but because you love her, you transfer it to the next person instead.
Also, even when he didn't know he was doing wrong, you may be feeling he took something that's 'yours' with the fluid-bonding, thus invaded your territory.

Those things happen. It's ok to feel.

 

[GalaGirl]

I am sorry you struggle. I mean all this kindly ok?

SHORT VERSION

You seem mad at her. She is inconsiderate and annoying in some of her behaviors. She will not own it when you bring this to her attention seeking conflict resolution. Instead she flips it around on you.

You are not assertive, so you fold. Then you add to your mad load that way. (Mad at her + mad at self for folding.)

Could take your own advice and stop living with her. If you keep on dating her, accept you don't trust her Word/she's a flake with her Word and she is inconsiderate a lot. Manage that better so you aren't dinged so often.

LONG VERSION

T and I are fluid bonded. One of the only boundaries I have is that we use condoms with other people. This boundary is crucially important to me, and I'm sure I had communicated this to her.

This is not a personal boundary to me. To me personal boundaries are things I can enforce and control. “Using condoms with other people besides us” is a 2 person job. I have to be doing it on my end, and T would have to be doing it on her end. So... I would call that an "agreement."

But NOT a personal boundary. For it to be a personal boundary I would have to say “Nobody has sex with ME without a condom.” I cannot control what they are doing elsewhere, but I can control what I pick. I can decline no-condom sex with ME. Since you know she's flaky with her Word sober and she can break agreements drunk? You could firm up your own boundaries and obey them yourself. Especially for things that are crucially important to you.

As I write this, I know that the thing I need to tell her is that a) I need her to check in before inviting people over in the middle of the night for drunk sleep-overs and b) if she can't respect my boundaries, we shouldn't be living together.

Yup. Stop living together.

If I were woken up at 2:30 AM with that crap? I would be mad. Why could designated driver not have dropped him off on the way instead of dragging him HERE? And why do T's problems, now that she has chosen to saddle herself with a drunk M, have to automatically be MY problem? They don't.

In those shoes I would have said "NO. He cannot stay here. Don't wake me up at 2:30 AM with things like that. Go solve your problem and get rid of him. We will discuss in morning."

When T and I reconnected that evening, I told my partner I was angry that she had invited him over at the last minute without us talking about it first. She thought I had no right to be mad at him and that there was no good reason not to invite him to sleep over.

That is her changing the channel to get off the hook. You were informing her you were angry with HER behavior in blue.

She does not LIVE ALONE. What she does affects other people, and waking people up at 2:30 AM with this stuff she chooses to get herself into is crap. Super inconsiderate, which is the running theme here. Nobody made her saddle herself with a drunk dude but her.

Not taking personal responsibility for her behavior and “flipping it around” on you may be a secondary theme. And could add to your upset with her -- because she will not do effective conflict resolution.

Works for HER though. If she changes the channel to make it about how your feelings of being mad at M are wrong? She's changed the channel. The spotlight is off her and her poor behavior. If you rise to the bait and chase side conversations around rather than keep the conversation focussed on her behavior? You end up tired and confused and she is still off the hook.

Learn to spot the channel changing.

She wants to be able to be spontaneous and invite people over. I want us to check in prior to extending invitations.

I could deal with spontaneous visits from a roomie or live in partner's friends during reasonable hours/days. Not on my late work night – I need undisturbed sleep. On normal days – no spontaneous people over at 2:30 AM. What's wrong with the cut off being 10 PM so they leave by midnight? Don't these people have jobs in the morning? Even if they do not, I DO.

T could respect that as price of admission to living with you. Otherwise, you two could live separately and each can do what they want. She can be spontaneous all she wants and doesn't have to agree to text. You are ding free.

I would go there. Because you don't trust in her Word so making new agreements just seems moot.

I still don't get why I'm so mad at M. I actually feel violently enraged every time I see him.

I assume he apologized after the previous fluid bonding mess where his other partners got mad and you were mad. Because M and T fluid bonded without saying boo (behavior they did that could affect others) and then shared sex with other partners without mentioning it. (Behavior that does NOT give other partners opportunity for full consent.) If he has not? I could see why you are still mad at him acting like everything is ok when really? He's been a jerk. I don't know why you label him a "nice guy" if he hasn't squared up with you. Ask for the apology if it is overdue.

I wonder if you might be “parking” most of your mad on to M rather than T because he's convenient. He's the “outsider.”

Because to me it sounds like T's behavior has been annoying you lately and she doesn't own it. She flips it around on you when you try to bring it up rather than apologize and modify her behavior so she's not dinging you any more.

• You like a heads up text at least. That doesn't take much time to execute if she has agreed to do that. You came home after a long day and found T, M, and mutual friend were hanging out because T likes spontaneous visits. Where was your text? Very inconsiderate.

• You and T make a karaoke date. You thought it was going to be just you and T. Then it sounds like she invited extra people without running it by you first. Again with the inconsiderate.

• T came home drunk and woke you up around 2:30am to ask if M could stay over on the pull-out couch because he was too drunk to get himself home safely. That is not an emergency. A problem for T, but not a crisis for YOU. It's super fresh for T to be waking you up late with this crap.

• And now that you are awake, she's entertaining him and you stress about sex agreements being broken because you do not trust her to keep her Word when she's drunk. (That one is on you, because you did not say NO to him spending the night. She could have just stayed at his place if their ride dropped them off there and texted you and you could have been sleeping and seen the text in the morning. Avoid all this night stress.)

BIGGER PICTURE QUESTION

What behavior makes T such great dating partner that you want to be putting up with this other stuff? Or what behaviors makes T a great roomie? You don't trust her to keep agreements when she's drunk, and she's inconsiderate or flaky with her Word sober.

I think you could take your own advice and tell her that since you see she cannot respect your boundaries and become more considerate in her behavior, then it's best for you guys not to live together.

And if you continue to date T, you accept she's kind of a flake and that you have to SPELL IT OUT each and every time to get your needs met. "This date is just the two of us, right? No extra people" and similar. Be more assertive so you get what you need or just bow out of the date.

I also think you could let people own their own baggage. Stop being selfless. It is not a virtue to put other people's wants ahead of your own need for sleep. Why carry other people's baggage for them? What do you get out of that but extra load?

I would be sending him out into the world drunk, which I felt bad about even though it was his choice

So he has to call his other partners or friends to bail him out. So? Maybe he learns to plan his drinking night better. Call a hotline for Sober Ride. Dude, there are apps now for that even.

Why do you feel bad he has to play like a grown up? You are not responsible for his well being. He's drunk, not dying or bleeding. In which case you would call 911 and let them handle it. Still not you.

he would know I had said No and I would end up looking like an asshole.

No, he would know that your house is NOT the house to come to drunk at 2:30 AM. You will say NO and he can expect same next time. Don't even bother to ask here. M could learn to plan his drinking night better.

You end up looking FIRM about what you will and will not deal in. Why are you calling yourself names like "asshole" about it? How is being you own self bully TAKE AWAY from the stress here?

IME, it just HAS to be the "hard no" with some people. Doing the "Ok, just this once, but next time don't do that." falls on deaf ears. All they learn is you fuss some, but then fold and they get their way. So they keep on walking all over you.

Is that what you have on your hands? You want people to respect your boundaries about you don't enforce them and then people don't know where the hard limit with you even IS?

Don't be gunnysacking upset or rage. Just deal with it promptly so it can be let go promptly. Maybe that will help you feel better moving forward.

GL!

Galagirl

 

[dancepants]

It sounds like you have tender spots from past hurts that were pushed. I'm sorry you're hurting.

You're angry. It's good you can recognize that feeling. So, be angry. Your partner isn't treating you well. Regardless of how I or anyone else would feel, this is how you feel. Your partner is having a relationship with you. I expect my partners to handle my tender spits gently.

In any case, if I were you and having the feelings you're having I'd:

1) say I'm mad at you. You know I'm tender around M. I'd lije you to treat me gently. Gently means not inviting M over when I don't know, not inviting M on our dates, not waking me up with M's problems. I don't want a relationship with M right now. Maybe I will later, I'll let you know. Please have your friendship without me.

2) Please don't invite people on our dates without an alone check-in that doesn't put me on the spot.

3) Don't wake me up when I'm sleeping. Just don't. This is a need I have. Sleeping is a basic need.

4) use condoms

5) Talk about how we talk about things. I get to be mad or sad or hurt and talk about that without it being about you. Of course, you get to have the same thing. How can we hold this space together. This may be a number of conversations that take a long while, but there should he progress.

If you're still feeling angry, and your partner either isn't helping or even is, figure out what you can do to feel better. Accept? Live alone? Breakup?

Sorry your partner was thoughtless. Honestly? Has nobody heard of a taxi or uber?

 

[Arius]

Thanks so much for the replies, everyone.

I have a chronic illness that includes brain fog and lack of energy. All the emotions have wiped me right out today. So I won't be able to reply to everything. But I do very much appreciate all the thoughts.

I do think she has been given a bit of an unfair shake. I tend to only write about her when I'm upset, so I think people are seeing the worst parts of her. However, many of the tendencies noted are real.

She doesn't listen well or validate my feelings. She does this for a living, and she's amazing at doing it with other people. Why can't she do it with me? I wonder if it's possibly because she cares about me and feels threatened when I stand up to her or talk about issues in the relationship.

So that's a conversation her and I need to have.

"I think the explosive rage keeps coming up because you keep judging yourself for it and stuffing it down"

I agree. I think the problem is that I judge myself for being angry or hurt because I know she's going to call my feelings into question, so I feel like I need to have really good reasons for them. Often i feel like i can't justify them. I usually express them anyway, but then she questions them instead of validating them, and I end up apologizing instead of her. But this is also part of a pattern of me being afraid that asserting myself will destroy the relationship. I have abandonment issues.

I also think it's probably true that I am redirecting rage towards T onto M, and that a lot of the rage is not just because of past trauma, but because of a pattern of rude and dismissive behaviour on her part.

Gala, I really appreciated the amount of energy you put into your reply. The clarity about the difference between boundaries and agreements in particular was very helpful. I need to decide what I want, what I need, and then see if she's willing to do those things.

Moving out is complicated by gentrification. I've been unable to work for two years, and living on welfare. Welfare barely covers my rent, and landlords don't want to rent to me because I'm on it. And they can discriminate now because everyone wants to live in my city all of a sudden. Last time I had to look for an apartment, I spent seven months searching before settling on something far less than ideal.

Also, because I'm so poor, I have to live with other people. Living with T isn't the best, but I never know what I'm getting into living with others. Many of my past roomies have been a nightmare.

So I'm hoping we can make this work.

We're going to talk when she gets home from work in a few hours.

I think I'm going to express that I don't want surprise visitors between 10pm and 8am, and that I don't want M in our apartment at all for the time being. Is that reasonable?

Wish me luck!

P.S. I don't know if it helps to mention this, but T and I have a principle of infringing minimally on each other's freedom. Which is also part of the reason I have a hard time saying No to things she wants to do. But I think if it happens in a space we share, I should be entitled to say No to things, right? I guess it's a matter of stating what I need and then being willing to move out if she can't meet my needs.

P.P.S. I feel less angry now, but mostly terrified that I might have to move out or change/end the relationship.

 

[kdt26417]

Re:

"I think I'm going to express that I don't want surprise visitors between 10pm and 8am, and that I don't want M in our apartment at all for the time being. Is that reasonable?"

Sounds reasonable to me.

Good luck.

 

[Arius]

Thanks, Kevin!

 

[IndieSolo]

Well, it's your home and you have a right to eel safe where you live, so it is definitely reasonable to ask that she not bring people there without asking first.

If you feel you need to not live together anymore, the relationship doesn't have to end. But why would you move out? Couldn't she move out and you find a roommate? I got the impression it is your apartment.

 

[Arius]

Dear nycindie,

Thanks for your input - I feel more confident now that my requests are reasonable.

I am aware that breaking up and moving out are two different things. This is the second time T and I have lived together.

This is definitely not my apartment. T has lived in this house in a different apartment before, so she has a much longer history here than I do; plus, her sister lives upstairs. It would make sense for her to stay here. On top of that, I don't even like this apartment - I'd rather live in a shared house with a garden. I only ever agreed to live here because of a lack of better options.

 

[GalaGirl]

I tend to only write about her when I'm upset, so I think people are seeing the worst parts of her. However, many of the tendencies noted are real.

If she has behaviors that just grate on you? Then the behaviors just grate on you. You guys can talk and if she's willing/able to modify some behaviors -- see if that helps.

If she does not want to change any behaviors? She doesn't have to.

You guys can agree that you are not compatible "as is" and then move on to another living arrangement. Whether you keep dating or not is another question.

I think I'm going to express that I don't want surprise visitors between 10pm and 8am, and that I don't want M in our apartment at all for the time being. Is that reasonable?

Yes. It is reasonable. This is your space too.

Be prepared to answer "For how long?" on the soft limit. If you don't want M around for the time being... for how long is that?

If it is NEVER going to change and it is actually a hard limit? Best to say so up front.

I don't know if it helps to mention this, but T and I have a principle of infringing minimally on each other's freedom.

So... why's she infringing on freedom from sleep disturbances?

I think when you talk you could cover the freedom TO do stuff...

• She wants freedom to see or date M.

And freedom FROM stuff.

• You want to be free from surprise visitors at late hours
• You want to be free from interrupted sleep

Which is also part of the reason I have a hard time saying No to things she wants to do.

She can do what she wants. Just cannot assume YOU want to be doing them too. Learn to say NO.

But I think if it happens in a space we share, I should be entitled to say No to things, right? I guess it's a matter of stating what I need and then being willing to move out if she can't meet my needs.

That is correct. In shared spaces, one has to come to agreements about use of that space. If one wants to be free from having to deal with other people preferences about shared spaces? They move so the space is no longer shared with those people.

P.P.S. I feel less angry now, but mostly terrified that I might have to move out or change/end the relationship.

I am glad you feel less angry, but sorry you feel terrified of possible new changes.

Try to look for the positives.

I agree. I think the problem is that I judge myself for being angry or hurt because I know she's going to call my feelings into question, so I feel like I need to have really good reasons for them. Often i feel like i can't justify them. I usually express them anyway, but then she questions them instead of validating them, and I end up apologizing instead of her. But this is also part of a pattern of me being afraid that asserting myself will destroy the relationship. I have abandonment issues.

In your behavior? I think you could plump for being more assertive and not worry about "destroying" the relationship. "Assertive" is not automatically "aggressive."

The relationship is either going to move toward a healthier dynamic from you speaking up or not. Changes for the better happen with each of you pulling your share toward a common goal.

She controls how she behaves and whether or not she steps it up.

But you control YOUR behavior. You could step it up and pull your weight and try to partcipate in the relationship in an authentic, healthy way. Don't give up just because conflict resolution feels hard and "just apologize for everything to make it all go away" seems easier to do.

Stick with it. Stand you ground. Be there for yourself and learn how to do healthy conflict resolution so you can be less afraid in future and more confident that you can handle stuff.

You are allowed to take up the space that you do without apology.

Galagirl

 

[Arius]

Update:

We had the talk. I feel mostly good about how it went.

I asked for no surprise visitors between 10pm and 8am. She immediately began shooting this full of holes. "What if one of my female friends feels unsafe?" "What if it's (insert name of person I feel comfortable around)?" etc. I started to doubt my position, but this was a good process, I think. What we ultimately agreed to was that she would not have sexytimes with anybody in our apartment unless I was given a reasonable amount of notice and agreed that I was okay with this.

We also agreed that M would not be invited over period until I had sorted out my anger towards him. Currently there is no specific time limit set on this. If an unreasonable amount of time goes by, I'm sure we'll revisit it.

I apologized to her for saying Yes when I meant to say No about M staying over. She refuse to apologize or acknowledge that she had done anything wrong by foisting the request on me drunkenly at 2am while he was standing outside waiting for the verdict. I asked her two or three times for an apology or some sort of recognition that this wasn't an okay way to behave, but she changed the subject every time. I started to doubt whether or not it was okay for me to be mad about that and eventually dropped the subject.

I find her refusal to apologize or acknowledge any wrongdoing frustrating. She's always been like that. I don't know if she's ever truly apologized for anything since we met.

Over the course of the conversation, I also expressed some frustration that she wasn't really investing any energy into our relationship. Specifically, that she didn't listen well or give me any validation. She basically said that she can't because she does that all day at her job and also for her friends and other partners; that she's like that with me because she knows I understand how overwhelmed she is with school and work and her social life. In other words, that she can treat me like crap because she loves me.

I pointed out that this was lousy behaviour. She's made some little efforts since then to be more attentive, but I know it won't last. I'm angry that she has started new relationships when she doesn't even have time or energy for this one. But I don't want to ask her for more attention because she's already so thoroughly overwhelmed by work and school that she flips out any time I ask.

I'm hoping that things will get better once she's done school and gets a different, less stressful job (which is her plan). But I don't like putting up with a lousy present in the hopes of some glorious future that may or may not ever arrive. Not that the present is super lousy. But it's hard for me never getting the validation I need. Whenever other people pay attention to me, I feel like a dying plant that just got water and sunlight poured on it.

So there's that. But I'm actually starting to think that her drinking behaviour was driving my anger a lot more than anything else.

On Saturday night, with my blessing, T invited one of her other partners (W) to crash over. They traded massages and did wax play and crashed on the futon, but agreed not to be sexual.

They started hanging out around 6pm. We were all together, and then they went out for dinner while I stayed home. I was feeling good about the arrangement until W walked in with a 6-pack of beer, followed by T with more beer and a giant bottle of gin.

She's been doing better lately, but generally, if there is booze in the house, T has to drink all of it. She will literally stay up drinking until every drop of booze is gone. Even if it belongs to her roommates. So a giant bottle of gin is a scary thing. It could literally kill her.

I got kind of angry again when I saw the booze. But I still haven't been able to really pin down why, or think of a specific reasonable request I could make regarding her use of alcohol.

As I may have mentioned before, my mother is an abusive alcoholic, so it makes sense that I would have a lot of repressed anger connected to alcoholic behaviour in general.

T passed out on the futon with W. I woke up for the day at 8am and she came into the room and passed out on the bed. I found W passed out with a candle burning beside the futon.

T has never really violated any of our agreements while intoxicated. But I still don't trust her. When she's drunk, it's like the person I love and trust and feel connected to is gone. Like her body's been possessed by this sloppy, unpredictable ghost.

For the first 18 months or so of our relationship, she was constantly drunk. And when she was drunk, she had a lot of casual sex with various men who openly disrespected her, most of whom she didn't even like. I was irritated by this, but it was her choice. (As has been pointed out, her and I have very different attitudes about sex: to me, it is sacred; to her, it is very much not. This has been a huge point of tension in our relationship.) She was also combative with me when drunk. I nearly broke up with her a number of times.

Then she sobered up and our relationship improved dramatically.

Now she's fallen off the wagon again, and I'm afraid. I don't know how far down she'll go or what she'll do. I trust Sober T. I do not and probably never will trust Drunk T, no matter how many times she keeps our agreements while drunk. I'll never know if maybe THIS will be the time she screws up.

I feel bad writing so much, but my thoughts are very complicated and I'm having trouble seeing clearly through all the muck. Thanks for all the clarity and perspectives.

A

 

[GalaGirl]

We had the talk. I feel mostly good about how it went.

What is good about it? Nothing seems to have improved to me. Just same old song, different day.

She refuse to apologize or acknowledge that she had done anything wrong by foisting the request on me drunkenly at 2am while he was standing outside waiting for the verdict. I asked her two or three times for an apology or some sort of recognition that this wasn't an okay way to behave, but she changed the subject every time. I started to doubt whether or not it was okay for me to be mad about that and eventually dropped the subject.

It is ok for you to be mad about that. And it is ok for you to be mad about her refusing to own her behavior.

I find her refusal to apologize or acknowledge any wrongdoing frustrating. She's always been like that. I don't know if she's ever truly apologized for anything since we met.

That's why I asked what's so great about T that you want to keep on dating her and dealing with this treatment. This is not healthy or kind treatment.

In other words, that she can treat me like crap because she loves me.

If she loves you, she wouldn't treat you like crap. That is the point! You do not exist to be someone else's punching bag.

I pointed out that this was lousy behaviour. She's made some little efforts since then to be more attentive, but I know it won't last. I'm angry that she has started new relationships when she doesn't even have time or energy for this one. But I don't want to ask her for more attention because she's already so thoroughly overwhelmed by work and school that she flips out any time I ask.

Sounds to me like you could end it with her. You have asked enough times and she's not interested in changing her behavior so she does NOT treat you like crap. You could accept that is the best she will ever offer you.

Since you do not enjoy being treated like crap? And you do not enjoy this offer? Rather than ask for more attention or keep putting up with "meh" you could walk away.

I do not see how “Date me! I will not meet your needs, and I will treat you like crap while claiming to love you!” is a great offer for you.

To me it sounds emotionally abusive and you sound pretty fed up with it all.

I don't like putting up with a lousy present in the hopes of some glorious future that may or may not ever arrive. Not that the present is super lousy. But it's hard for me never getting the validation I need. Whenever other people pay attention to me, I feel like a dying plant that just got water and sunlight poured on it.

Your present is lousy enough. It doesn't have get to T smacking you with a baseball bat or burning down the house for you to say "Not good enough offer for me to be willing to stay in this."

You are allowed to change your mind. You could end it with her to stop you getting so drained. Then spend more time with people who help you bloom rather than wither you. Stop picking T out to be with.

She's been doing better lately, but generally, if there is booze in the house, T has to drink all of it. She will literally stay up drinking until every drop of booze is gone. Even if it belongs to her roommates. So a giant bottle of gin is a scary thing. It could literally kill her.

So she's an alcoholic with no sense of control? That seems to be what you are saying.

I got kind of angry again when I saw the booze. But I still haven't been able to really pin down why, or think of a specific reasonable request I could make regarding her use of alcohol.

I can think a reasonable request you could make of YOURSELF. “I have a personal boundary. I cannot allow myself to date or be around alcoholics. I have had enough bad experiences with them in my past. I don't want new ones. ” Then YOU could obey your personal limit. If T doesn't meet your personal standard? She doesn't make the cut. Stop hanging out with her.

I feel bad writing so much, but my thoughts are very complicated and I'm having trouble seeing clearly through all the muck. Thanks for all the clarity and perspectives.

You seem to write pretty clearly to me. I hope you feel better for the vent.

You seem feel it is "disloyal" or something to air this all out here but you are not being disloyal. You are stating that the situation at hand is not one you enjoy. You are allowed to have that opinion. I know I wouldn't like it if I were in it!

Your bottom line is still the same in this post as it seemed to be in the original:

• You do not trust T to follow through on her Word after talks. She says one thing and does another.
  
• You do not trust T to remain sober and you definitely do not trust her drunk. So basically you don't trust her at any time.
  
• You do not trust T to be considerate and responsible. (Now you have this latest drunk sleepover with open flame candle left unattended. She and her pal gonna burn the house down from carelessness?)
  
• You don't feel safe dating her, you don't feel safe living there.
  

Your first obligation is to take care of YOU. So you could get away from all this stuff that brings you down.

I strongly suggest you take steps to move out even if that feels scary and you are not sure what kind of roomie you might end up with. I would hope your next roomie is a calmer, more stable sounding person. I hope that you are more able to get to a better place so you can bloom and not wither any more.

GL!

Galagirl

 

[Nadya]

So you are dating a drinking alcoholic. That is the root of all your problems, I dare say. Alcoholism is a chronic disease, she needs to get treatment for it! I believe the only effective treatment for an alcoholic is a combination of total abstinence of alcohol and intense therapy.

She might have sober periods, but without the proper treatment she is bound to relapse again and again. A drinking alcoholic is not a trustworthy person. They won't keep their promises - it is part of their illness.

You being a son of an alcoholic mother, as well as now a partner of a drinking alcoholic, you most likely suffer from codependency. It is an illness, too, as I see it. You are enabling you partner to drink, and the pattern is something you have learned as a child.

Take care of yourself! Get some treatment for your own codependency issues, and leave your drinking partner in order to be able to heal yourself.

That's all I have to say.

 

[FallenAngelina]

....I trust Sober T. I do not and probably never will trust Drunk T, no matter how many times she keeps our agreements while drunk. I'll never know if maybe THIS will be the time she screws up.

It's not about trusting her, it's about trusting yourself to be balanced, discerning and self-respecting. You can negotiate and have all the talks with her that you can tolerate but at the end of the day, all of this is a reflection of what's happening in YOU. We can never change people by asking them to change. If we want true and lasting improvement, we can only change ourselves. As Nadya rightly points out, this is an alcoholic and codependent relationship. You may or may not respond to the guidance of Al-Anon, but that organization has helpful information for anyone who is significantly influenced by another person's behavior (which you are) whether alcohol is involved or not.

 

[Arius]

What this conversation has helped me to realize is that I don't want to live with an alcoholic.

At the risk of derailing the conversation:

As someone who rejects the idea that there is any power greater than myself, I generally find Al-Anon meetings and literature irritating and unhelpful. It is a disempowering model. I tried reading Melody Beatty's books on co-dependence and found them to be stuffed full of pseudo-religious nonsense. They taught me nothing I didn't already know, and I found it impossible to accept guidance from a person whose worldview I cannot respect.

I appreciate the nudge though, and am looking into alternative support groups that won't infuriate me. (Because of my health, it will probably have to be online/virtual.)

Also, T and I are not big fans of the "disease" models of alcoholism, mental illness, etc. (In fact, the more I learn about allopathic medicine, the more critical I become of the disease model of actual diseases.) Alcoholism is, in my opinion, a behaviour. Referring to this behaviour as a "disease" is speaking metaphorically. But then we start speaking of "treatments" which are often administered by doctors and are not metaphorical at all. Why treat a metaphorical illness with real medicine? The results will not be spectacular. I have also seen this metaphor used to justify continued drinking behaviour. My mother has stated outright that she has a "disease" and therefore can't help but drink. This is perfectly in line with the logic of the metaphor in question, if we accept that most people seem to think diseases just come out of nowhere and there's nothing you can do except take a pill and hope to get better while maintaining the dietary and lifestyle patterns that led to the disease in the first place.

Codependency is, similarly, not a disease. I define it as a maladaptive pattern of relationship behaviour learned in childhood. I would ask you to please not refer to me as a diseased person just because I have a hard time separating my needs from the needs of the people I love.

I understand that the disease model evolved to take away some of the stigma associated with alcoholism, codependency, mental unwellness, etc. But I am a compassionate human who doesn't stigmatize those people or myself. I'm not ashamed, so I don't need some metaphor to make me feel like it's not my fault that I'm co-dependent. So please don't tell me I have a disease.

Thanks,
A

 

[kdt26417]

I'm with you brother, I don't believe in any higher power (unless one counts things like the Sun or continental drift).

We have to turn to ourselves if we want to change anything in our life.

As for your situation, I am undecided. I don't know whether you should break up with T. Perhaps so if she cannot get a grip on her alcoholism.

 

[Arius]

I'm with you brother, I don't believe in any higher power (unless one counts things like the Sun or continental drift).

We have to turn to ourselves if we want to change anything in our life.

As for your situation, I am undecided. I don't know whether you should break up with T. Perhaps so if she cannot get a grip on her alcoholism.

Thanks, Kevin.

I'm definitely not at a place where I feel like I need to end the relationship. I am at a place where I'm going to start looking into options regarding moving out. I expect this will be a lengthy process, for reasons previously stated. (Ridiculously high rent, chronic illness, etc.)

I've been asked a few times what's so great about T, and so far I haven't really answered. I don't feel like I need to justify wanting to be with her, but just so people stop asking, I'll attempt an explanation.

Suffice it to say I've never been with anyone who is so completely compatible with me. I have a worldview that is far far outside of the mainstream. A worldview that puts me at odds with the vast majority of people, even in the poly community. Finding her was like finding a sasquatch or a unicorn. We fit. I am not eager to throw that away.

On top of that, she's a brilliant thinker with a huge heart and a powerful indomitable spirit. I admire her more than anybody I've ever met. My IQ puts me well into the gifted range; this is the first relationship I've been in where I am able to fully respect the intellect of my partner. I don't know how to explain what a gift that is.

Plus she challenges me and helps me grow in ways that I want to grow.

And the sex is great.
And we cuddle lots.
And I love her.

So yeah, she's kinda selfish and busy and has a drinking problem (which she owns and is working on, despite this recent relapse) and we don't see eye-to-eye on whether or not sexuality is sacred. But I'm not willing to flush this whole relationship down the toilet just because it isn't perfect.

 

[IndieSolo]

The Higher Power in AA literature does not need to be a deity; the term can be used to describe the support of people who have been through the process of not letting alcohol control their lives, or the coffee pot at an AA meeting. The literature is based on stuff written in the '30s, you can tailor it to what works for you. The basic idea of acknowledging a Higher Power is simply to state that managing one's addiction to alcohol alone no longer works and that it is necessary to step out of one's self-centered and self-serving world view and ask for help.

As for whether it is a disease or not, it is a symptom of dis-ease within oneself, and a lack of impulse control. Codependency is a pattern of behavior that was taught to you, but isn't good for you at all.

Many atheists and agnostics who also disagree with the notion of being "diseased" have found help with quitting drinking at AA. It boils down to being in a supportive group that shares their experience and helpful techniques for resisting the urge to drink (and if having a bottle of liquor in the apartment means she won't stop drinking it until it's gone, then I would say it may be a necessity for her to resist the urge to drink, to not bring booze home, and not be tempted even by the idea that she can have only one drink - she's effectively demonstrated that she cannot have just one). And despite your distaste for AA, meetings are free, and exist just about everywhere. This is a good thing. For those times when an alcoholic is standing in front of a liquor store, thinking about buying a bottle, knowing a room full of sober alcoholics is around the corner and about to share their experiences just to help each other not drink - can be a lifesaver!

Does T drive drunk?

There is a group/technique called Moderation Management, which strives to give people the tools to strengthen their will power to stop drinking after the second drink. They beieve that it is possible to both have two alcoholic drinks and manage not to have more than that. The problem is, however, that alcohol affects one's judgment and most people with an addictive personality will not be able to stop at two drinks. But you could look them up online. The organization is small and not everywhere.

The thing is, you are unhappy and in a situation that is toxic to you. How can you get out of it, what sort of practical plan can you put together, AND will you find the courage and determination to actually do something about it and advocate for yourself?

 

[Ravenscroft]

Arius -- thanks for your thoughts. The standard disease model has greated at me for decades. A lot of resonance in my head & heart!

And THANK YOU nycindie for

There is a group/technique called Moderation Management, which strives to give people the tools to strengthen their will power to stop drinking after the second drink.

Having recently lost to recurrent addiction someone I once very much cared about, I can't help but feel that this (for lack of a better term) program might have kept her alive & maybe even in proper control of her life.