Date Nights

[MotorM]

So, a bit of a long story, so I'll get on with it
Anne and I were each others primary for about 18 months, and she moved in about 9 months ago (separate rooms).
We are both very socially active people, but because of circumstances, we didnt really share the same social activities. I wouldn't say it was either of our faults, but she couldn't handle the lack of time we spent together, and started seeing someone else (Chris).
I don't have a problem with this, however it got very serious very quickly to the extent of they booked a 2 week holiday together before i had even met they guy. (We had talked about this, and both felt it was important if the relationship looked half serious is, that we introduce each other).
Anyway, things turned a bit ugly for a while (I have never experienced taking a child through puberty, but i can imagine its a lot like having a partner who is infatuated with someone else, their ability to reason is non existent) until we
were finally able to work out something amicable.
And so began our "Date Nights". Every 8 days, for 6 hours it was guaranteed we could have quality time with each other, and planned different things we could do together and i was very much looking forward to these nights (then came corona and put a halt to going outside the flat).
Never-the-less, she is still obsessed with Chris, which i was starting to get annoyed with. For example, we had arranged to meet on Monday between 1-4pm, then we had our "Date" from 5pm. I wasn't going to get up to wait for her at 1pm, if she got home early, great, if not, then not. She texted me around midday to say that Chris decided not to go to work, so she will stay there, and that she'll be home at 4pm.
Ok, I'm glad shes honest, but there was no real need to be so honest. I was expecting her before 4pm, that's it. I dont need to know that her schedule revolves around chris, and this isnt the only time shes said something like this.
I told her that her talking about Chris like this was starting to get annoying, but she didnt understand, i dont think.
I should point out that Chris lives quite a long way from us, and that when she goes there, she stays for 4-5 days, because its too stressful to go there just for a day or two.
I don't want Chris to come around to our place when I'm there. This might sound selfish but its nothing against Chris, in fact, i like him, and have spent a few hours together in my studio making music. I just don't think my relationship with Anne is strong enough yet accept that he is in the flat.
So, A few weeks on one of our Dates, she got home, and as we lay on the bed starting to snuggle, she asks me what I think about Chris moving closer to our flat, maybe in the same block of flats, where she could spend more time with him, and less time with me (sometimes we would have spontaneous Dates when were home at the same time). Shes not a spontaneous person, and doesnt feel comfortable with it.
I mean, she could have asked me if i wanted to talk about this at this time, in which case i would have suggested the next day to talk about it, but she feels so strongly about it, she had to ruin the 6 hours i have with her.
To me, "Date Nights" is a safe space and not talking about respective partners should be clear, even if it wasn't (which im sure it was) talked about before.
Or am i seeing this false? She says she wasnt aware that I see Date Nights like this, and wont let it happen in the future.
I waited for her to apologist, but she didn't, so i told her that if she didnt, I really have to think if the relationship is worth it, because it sure as shit isn't much fun at the moment, and the fun part was the last part of the relationship i can hang onto
She doesnt see it that way, and said i'm not going to hear an apology from her. I'm "allowed" to little time with her, and I dont want to think that she's only there because it has already been arranged. She says she looks forward to seeing me, but im really not sure, based on her obsession with Chris
This is all really playing with my head, and the longer it goes on, the more absurd it gets. We've tried talking about it, but that lasted literally 30 secs.
I do love her, and don't want to stop being with her, but I dont want to be with someone who is potentially? that arrogant.

 

[fuchka]

Was your question "am I seeing this false?"

If so - I can't tell if you've got the wrong idea, based on what you've said.

You seem unsure if you and Anne had confirmed what Date Nights meant, in terms of agreed topics of discussion. Had you explicitly agreed that talk about Chris was off the table, during Date Nights?

If it wasn't explicit, then demanding an apology seems off base. She can't read your mind about what is ok for you. Maybe she could have been more careful - sure. Well she wasn't... She could apologise for that, perhaps. But trying to force something doesn't sound productive to me.

More important: Is she willing and able to do better in the future? Would that be enough for you?

There's clearly more going on here than just Date Nights. So you might have other things to confirm with her, and other things you might need to ask for / seek to negotiate.

NRE is a rush and it takes work to make sure you're tending to an older relationship well, when you are growing a new one.

Some people find this resource helpful, to validate their feelings as the "old relationship" partner:
http://www.kathylabriola.com/articles/are-you-in-poly-hell

 

[fuchka]

Also: thank you for choosing names for Anne and Chris (rather than just using "my partner", "her other partner"). Nicknames that are names (rather than roles or initials) make it easier to follow a story, and better establish each person as a person rather than an extension of someone else. So, thanks. It helps.

 

[MotorM]

Hi Fuchka,
Thanks for your honesty. That's definitely food for thought.
I've thought about if we had talked about specific boundaries regarding Date Night, and to be honest, i'm not 100% that came up, Maybe it was a theme in a podcast we both listened to, maybe we talked about it, or maybe I heard it in a podcast when she wasn't there, I cant remember. Anyway, i think out or respect for the other person, other partners should be taboo for Date Nights. But thats just me personally, and I can't expect everyone to be of that opinion.
But your right, if it wasn't specifically discussed, then to assume the partner is also of that way of thinking is wrong.
As I said, I did also express concern that she talked about Chris in a way that could make me feel uncomfortable. I'm not saying to never mention his name, just to think if what is being said is appropriate.
The thing is also, (and this came to me in a "ah huh" moment) in German, which she is, so this is all said in German, "Entschuldigung" means to take responsibility of your actions, and "Es tut Mir Leid" means I'm sorry. And i've ask, well, more or less demanded that she takes responsibility for fucking up Date Nights for me, but in reality, I think I just want that she acknowledges that it was not cool what she did. I'll run that by her in the morning.
You are also right that we are carrying a lot of baggage from before, and we have to clear that out before we can talk about what direction we are going.
Thanks again for being candid. I very much appreciate it.

 

[fuchka]

"Entschuldigung" means to take responsibility of your actions, and "Es tut Mir Leid" means I'm sorry.

Oh, interesting! I recognise the first phrase from the little German I know, but I didn't realise it wasn't a straight translation of "I'm sorry" (in English).

I had a similar "a-ha!" moment once when I learnt about two types of wrongdoing in Roman law. "Culpa" is when you do something wrong due to negligence / carelessness. "Dolus" is where you have evil intent.

I think we sometimes mix up the two when we talk about being sorry or apologising. Sometimes when we don't mean to cause harm, we feel we don't need to apologise. But we can still say sorry for the harm our actions did cause, whether through negligence or even by accident. "I'm sorry that I hurt you" doesn't need to mean "I'm sorry that I hurt you on purpose".

Maybe German is clearer than English when talking about these issues!

I'm glad you found my comments helpful. I wish you well in working through this with Anne, as well as in your own mind.

 

[MotorM]

Quick Update, I discussed this point with Anne, and well, there is a lot less tension now, in fact, we are getting on swimmingly now, thanks again for your input.
Regarding the 2 meanings of apology, with todays german, the definitions are blending in more with each other, however as Anne is German Speech Coach, she probably took the definitions more literally.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi MotorM,

It sounds like you are getting along better with Anne, like you had the opportunity to discuss things with her, and got some things resolved. I am glad to hear that, if you still need some help (now or in the future), let us know.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[Magdlyn]

This a bit of a long story, so I'll get on with it.

Anne and I were each other's primary for about 18 months, and she moved in about 9 months ago. We have separate rooms.

We are both very socially active people, but because of circumstances, we didn't really share the same social activities. I wouldn't say it was either of our faults, but she couldn't handle the lack of time we spent together, and so started seeing someone else, Chris.

She felt you were too unavailable, so she decided to get a second lover.

I didn't have a problem with this. However, it got very serious, very quickly. They booked a 2 week holiday together before I had even met the guy!

We had talked about this, and we both agreed it was important, if another relationship looked half serious, to introduce the new person to the other.

So not only did she not bring Chris by to meet you, she decided, completely without your consent, to just go swanning off on a 2 week vacation with the guy! That's some NRE crazies right there. Poly or not, it's a careless person who would go off for 2 weeks with someone she just met.

Anyway, things turned a bit ugly for a while. I have never experienced taking a child through puberty, but i can imagine its a lot like having a partner who is infatuated with someone else. Their ability to reason is non- existent.

Finally we were able to work out something amicable. And so began our "Date Nights." Every 8 days, for 6 hours it was guaranteed we could have quality time with each other. We planned different things we could do together, and I was very much looking forward to these nights. Then came corona and put a halt to going outside the flat.

Nevertheless, she is still obsessed with Chris. I was starting to get annoyed with this. For example, we had arranged to meet on a Monday between 1:00 and 4:00 pm, then start our "date" at 5:00 pm. I wasn't going to get up to wait for her at 1:00 pm. If she got home early, great, if not, then not.

So, she wasn't home all night? She was out overnight, and you would be sleeping in until past 1:00 pm? Is this common, for her to be out all night? Where does she stay, normally? With Chris, or someone else? Is she practicing social distancing at all?

She texted me around midday to say that Chris decided not to go to work, so she would stay there, and that she'll be home at 4:00 pm. I was glad she was honest, but there was no real need to be so honest. I was expecting her before 4:00 pm, and that was it. I didn't need to know that her schedule revolved around Chris, and this isnt the only time shes said something like this.

So, normally you wouldn't know or care where your live-in partner was, when she was out all night during a pandemic? That is extreme expectations of "don't ask, don't tell." Did it hurt you to know she was with Chris, and not someone else?

On another note, is Chris at low risk for corona? Do you even know?

I told her that her talking about Chris like this was starting to get annoying, but she didn't understand, I don't think.

Why does it annoy you so much to know she's seeing her OSO? Did you have a DADT contract in place? Or if not, do you need to ask for that, and see if she consents?

I should point out that Chris lives quite a long way from us, and that when she goes there, she stays for 4-5 days, because its too stressful to go there just for a day or two.

So, you assumed when she was out all night, she was at Chris's place. So what's so terrible about knowing she was going to stay at his place until she left to join you at 4:00?

I don't want Chris to come around to our place when I'm there. This might sound selfish, but its nothing against Chris. In fact, I like him, and we have spent a few hours together in my studio making music.

I just don't think my relationship with Anne is strong enough yet accept that he is in the flat.

So you feel your relationship with Anne is shaky. That's one issue that might explain your seeming jealousy.

It's not terrible to not want a metamour in one's home. Some of us think of our homes as our sanctuary, and we don't want to see our SO showing affection for another, or overhear their sex. Also, we might just want to be relaxed in our own home most of the time, not needing to feel like a host.

So, a few weeks ago, on one of our date nights, she got home, and as we lay on the bed starting to snuggle, she asked me what I thought about Chris moving closer to our flat, maybe in the same block of flats, where she could spend more time with him, and less time with me. (Sometimes we could have spontaneous dates when were home at the same time.) She's not a spontaneous person, and doesn't feel comfortable with it.

I don't understand what this means, her not being comfortable with "something," because she doesn't like to be spontaneous.

I mean, she could have asked me if i wanted to talk about this at this time, in which case i would have suggested the next day to talk about it.

Yes, sometimes it's nice to schedule a serious talk, and not just start doing it on what is supposed to be a night of quality time fun.

I do think her not being into spontaneity clashes with her wanting to suddenly go off on a 2 week vacation with a virtual stranger though.

But she felt so strongly about it, she had to ruin the 6 hours I had set aside for her. To me, "Date Nights" are a safe space and not talking about respective partners should be clear, even if it wasn't (but I'm sure it was) talked about before.

So you think she knew that date nights were just for the two of you, and a metamour should never be mentioned. It seems this needs to be clarified. It seems it's difficult for her to be DADT to you about her plans with Chris.

Or am I seeing this false? She says she wasnt aware that I see Date Nights like this, and wont let it happen in the future.

It's OK to need to re-examine and re-confirm relationship agreements. Polyamory takes clear and transparent negotiation, and a lot of trust. It seems Anne is trying to be honest, clear, etc., but it seems you get freaked out whenever she mentions Chris.

I waited for her to apologise, but she didn't. So I told her that if she didn't, I would really have to think about whether our relationship is worth it. It sure as shit isn't much fun at the moment. The fun part was the last part of the relationship I could hang onto.

You'd like more fun and less problems? Sometimes relationships are fun, but sometime transitions are hard. Maybe there will be a "new normal" once you and Anne get the guidelines you seem to want fully understood and agreed to.

She didn't see it that way, and said I'm not going to hear an apology from her. I'm "allowed" to have little time with her, and I don't want to think that she's only there because it has already been arranged. She says she looks forward to seeing me, but I'm really not sure, based on her obsession with Chris.

Her words don't match her actions. You feel dismissed, displaced and neglectd. You admit your schedules don't mesh well, and she had too much free time, so decided to date another guy. But now it seems even the time you can offer her is being taken up with things regarding Chris.

This is all really playing with my head, and the longer it goes on, the more absurd it gets. We've tried talking about it, but that lasted literally 30 seconds.

I do love her, and don't want to stop being with her, but I don't want to be with someone who is potentially that arrogant.

Is this the first time either of you has tried to practice polyamory? This sounds like "poly hell" to me.

http://www.kathylabriola.com/articles/are-you-in-poly-hell

I will check the rest of your thread in a bit.