Dating safety

[Spork]

Opalescent - I will look into Google number thank you!

And that book sounds so familiar, I will check if I have it or have read it. I read a few books on trusting instincts and allowing children to do so too years ago...

I believe that I have good instincts most of the time, but I do worry that my newness to this part of my life may leave me openly vulnerable.

That's why I said what I did. It's so easy to say, "trust your instincts." But when you're brand new to dating...a few things can REALLY get in the way of that even if you have the smartest gut of anyone ever.

- We all want to give others the benefit of the doubt and not judge without due cause.
- You might have a "no" in your gut but a "yes, please" in your pants. Your brain, trying to mediate, will not find logical reasons for your "no" and will talk you into your "yes." (You'll find out the reasons for your bad gut feeling later, and to your dismay.)
- Many women have been socially conditioned from CHILDHOOD to be accomodating and pleasant. It's easy for men to make us feel obligated, to pressure us, and to play on our desire to be pleasing to others. It's documented scientific fact that men interrupt and talk over women more often, and women shut up and let them, waiting only for our turn (as we were taught was polite) to speak, while our male counterparts just barge right in and speak over us like we're not there. I'm not talking about the dangers of winding up with a guy like that, I'm talking about an underlying social thing where we submit ourselves to the wishes of men and don't stand up for ourselves. We might not get raped, but we went along with something we didn't really want. Why? That's happened a BAJILLION TIMES in my life. The amount of times I've had sex with a man, compared to the amount of times that I enthusiastically wanted to, is a pretty small percentage. It was "no big deal" and I "just did it." Why?

So I think it's worthwhile as a first step to keep yourself safe in dating, is to examine your life, habits, successes and failures, any time you went along with something that was uncomfortable, every time you got into a situation you didn't like...check your own self out and look for any habits you might be harboring unchallenged in your psyche that can put you at risk.

It's not about taking on fault or blame for bad things, either. It's about looking for ways we can empower ourselves to stay safe and happy.

...

Oh, and River...the whole safe call thing, it's not remotely a bit much. Not at all. You want a really uncomfortable reality check, ask the ladies in this forum how many of us have had our consent violated.

I see it as similar to being an elderly person who lives alone, and having a neighbor visit every so often...if you fell and broke a hip, who would know? I'm not going to have a friend go sit in the corner and spy on me during a date, but I'll arrange to call, maybe even the next morning or something...and that's not just a safety thing, I love to chit-chat about my dates with a friend or my Mom or whatever. Usually that's what safe calls turn into. "How did it go?" "Well, the conversation was great, but he's got a serious dandruff problem and really squinty, twitchy eyes, and I'm just not attracted to him. Don't think there will be a second date."

But those of us who are into BDSM have additional need for safety protocols, and additional protocols sometimes in place. Even cities with great scenes have their predators and violators and wackos. And even Dominants have to worry about crazies latching onto them. I've seen abusive subs, you betcha. I know a few. That's one of the reasons I LOVE the clubs I'm comfortable with, it's an environment that is monitored, so I know if I call "RED" the activity WILL stop, and habitual abusers are kept out. Zen and I played at our local club for 4 or 5 months before I ever went to his house.

 

[IndieSolo]

Oh, yes - I have a Google Voice number also. Ironically, it was suggested that I get one by someone I met on OKC who turned out to be a bit of a stalker that I had to block! But it does work well. You can make calls and send texts on your computer and/or have all calls and texts to your Google # forwarded to your real cell phone. People calling you will not have your real # and if they start harassing you, you can go online and block them very easily. If blocked, they cannot send a text nor call you. Some cell phone services won't let you block numbers, so this is handy.

- - - - - - - -
To River, I appreciate how you stepped back to consider my words and how women have to think about their safety at all times. However, it is a bit condescending to say that "woman may sometimes perhaps not realize that we men are probably about, perhaps, just as much vulnerable to various forms of violence and abuse as women are -- though differently." Yes, I would say most women are aware of the fact that men can be abused and violated, too.

However, I would not say it is at the same level of "every minute, every day" for men that it is for women. I don't think men are "just as vulnerable" when it comes to being targeted in public, unless they are outwardly perceived to be gay. It is a very sad fact that men who "appear" outwardly to be gay, transgender, or not the picture of masculinity that society demands, will be at huge risk for violence. And one's safety will depend on where you live and how you present yourself to society. For men who appear to most folks to be straight, however, I am doubtful they are at as much physical risk as a woman is simply because of her gender.

This is a major factor, too:

- Many women have been socially conditioned from CHILDHOOD to be accomodating and pleasant. It's easy for men to make us feel obligated, to pressure us, and to play on our desire to be pleasing to others. It's documented scientific fact that men interrupt and talk over women more often, and women shut up and let them, waiting only for our turn (as we were taught was polite) to speak, while our male counterparts just barge right in and speak over us like we're not there. I'm not talking about the dangers of winding up with a guy like that, I'm talking about an underlying social thing where we submit ourselves to the wishes of men and don't stand up for ourselves. We might not get raped, but we went along with something we didn't really want.

Furthermore, while most women acknowledge that men are just as vulnerable privately, and can be abused within relationships, I must point out that the degree to which you, River, were surprised by the levels of caution many of us were recommending in this thread would seem to indicate that your personal safety when dating and meeting new people hasn't much occupied your mind - so can a man truly say he is "just as vulnerable" as a woman is in this sort of dating situation? And have you ever been stalked? I have - by three men in real life and one online. I learned not to let a guy know where I live after one man stood under my bedroom window calling my name, night after night.

Physically, men have more upper-body and arm strength than women do, which makes it very easy for a man to overpower a woman, or grab and steer them, and not let go. Personally, I've had to free myself from a man's tight grasp, and once even had to throw myself out of a moving car to get away from someone (I was young and foolish enough to go for a ride with this person, but I thought he was not a threat, being a friend of a friend). For women, the best defense when being attacked is to scream and call attention to what is happening, and to rely on our lower-body strength and either run very fast and hard, or hop down onto the ground and kick the assailant (I learned this at a Model Mugging graduation I once attended).

Despite all that I've written above, I still believe that most people are inherently good, and I do not engage in a war between the sexes. What has developed in my life, via my experiences and observations, is a pretty good bullshit detector and more trust in my intuition, which has definitely helped me navigate the dating waters. Anyone making a date with someone they don't know should look at all the possible ways to protect oneself and determine for themselves which route is best and has them feeling the most comfortable and safe.

 

[Spork]

It's also very worth mentioning that I do tend to have a lot of general faith in humanity, and I do tend to think that most men are good people, most people are basically decent, and I'm not walking around looking over my shoulder all the time.

Watching out for yourself in various ways, as a woman, is NOT the equivalent of expecting men in general to be monsters.

Are a few of them in fact dangerous? Yep. We're watching out for them. But there are plenty of more subtle ways that we can end up in unfortunate situations. Watching out for that stuff is the tricky bit. Being emotionally safe, for instance. If we set aside the basic physical dangers of being assaulted or hurt physically, there are tons of other stuff we have to try and avoid. Plenty of that also applies to men.

The main thing that is the age-old women's concern is being deceived into thinking that there might be a good connection by a man who's just trying to get sex. I think that most women have to navigate that minefield in dating.

I've seen lots of lonely men get taken in by your basic scammers online. Either fake profiles, or women who are just users. Trying to phish identity, trying to get him to send money. My ex had multiple women who saw he was a disabled vet, and figured they could get over on him for access to pain meds, to use (addicts) or to sell. He's got one who "friend zoned" him who actually calls him to do her favors like pick up her kids and drive them across town to their grandparents' house or whatever. She is a "friend" and so he does these favors for her...yet they only had a handful of dates and don't hang out as "friends" (or anything else) anymore, haven't for months. I know women who only use OKC to get free meals from first dates.

But while it's probably rarer, women have to watch out for people who will try and take advantage like this, too.

I also did have guys online get hostile when I tried to politely reject them, or demand explanations of why I was saying no, which they would then argue with me about, and demand that I "give them a chance." As a woman, it's like we have to figure out what the guy wants, and if we don't give it to him just however he likes it, we're all sorts of a terrible bitch/slut/prude/what-have-you.

And all of that is not even worrying about rapists, murderers, abusers and stalkers...just the kind of crap that can give you standard issue "dating fatigue." I find that in addition to self awareness, keeping a sense of humor helps with that. But I feel like online dating...which seems to be the "way it's done" now...kind of concentrates the basic hazards of the dating world.

 

[River]

I have been told I should pass on name and address and arrange safety calls, if I meet someone in private, but I am not sure I would do that. Probably only if I decided to have sex with someone on the second date or something like that. I tend rather tend to get into relationships with people who have been friends/acquaintances for some time, and I would not arrange a safety call for visiting a friend, so what.

After all, if I don't trust a person, I don't go home with them, and if I do, and they turn out not to be what they pretend... can a safety call really save me?

These words relate to my comments, which may have seemed insensitive -- and may even have been a little insensitive. But I definitely wasn't poking fun or belittling! You see, I don't become sexually involved with anyone I've not hung out with long enough to know if they are basically trustworthy -- not dangerous. My work requires me to meet with people I don't know all the time -- usually in public settings such as a coffee shop or cafe. I've never placed a "safety call" -- though I'm perfectly aware of the fact that there are lots of bad and even dangerous people around. I guess I've just accepted the risk which comes with this fact and never taken extraordinary (to me) measures to protect myself from them. I lock my doors at night. I try to feel out who is likely to be dangerous or harmful and keep my distance. Every once in a while I get caught up with an asshole by error of judgement, and I bail myself out.

But it is true; I've never had to worry much about rape. I've seen rape statistics and it's just frightening! But those statistics are largely an abstraction to me, since I don't have any women friends telling me of having recently been raped.

I hope my words did not offend the women here. I really did not intend to! I've been reflecting on these gender matters since Nycindie's post to me. I'll try to be more sensitive in the future about the woman's experience in a world with men who rape.

 

[River]

.... I must point out that the degree to which you, River, were surprised by the levels of caution many of us were recommending in this thread would seem to indicate that your personal safety when dating and meeting new people hasn't much occupied your mind - so can a man truly say he is "just as vulnerable" as a woman is in this sort of dating situation? And have you ever been stalked? I have - by three men in real life and one online. I learned not to let a guy know where I live after one man stood under my bedroom window calling my name, night after night.

This thread (along with other experiences in my life lately) has me deepening my awareness of how very complex the world is, and how easy it is for all of us to make mistakes based on our commonplace human tendency to try and simplify things in order to make sense of them.

My "window" on the world in these matters has very much to do with multiple particular factors, such as the fact that (a) I "date" both men and women, (b) I'm a rather tall and strong (physically) man but of a somewhat lithe build, (c) for twenty years I've lived in a remarkably safe small city with a violent crime rate far lower than the national average in many of the nation's large cities, and many other factors some of which I'm consciously aware and some I am not. I would add to this that while I have some women friends and many women acquaintances I have few very close and intimate women friends (not because I don't want to have). So my knowledge of the inner life of women, in general, is affected by this fact. My personality is such that I tend to have my most intimate friendships in relations with my fellow men. Being intimate with men is like breathing for me. With women, some extra effort is involved because of our gender difference. I guess that makes me a bit of a "regular guy". Or whatever(?).

Only once in the last 30 years or so have I had a bad experience with dating which raised concern for my physical safety. This was in a "date" with a guy. He showed real signs of crazy which were not apparent in the couple of hours we hung out before going to his place with physical intimacy in mind (something I do with extreme rarity, as I have always preferred to get to know a person before going there). He started to become sexually aggressive, more-or-less not taking no for an answer, but it was a bit more nuanced than a rape attempt. But it rightfully scared me, and I started looking around his place for objects I could use to protect myself if push came to shove(!). (The guy turned out to be a supreme jerk.)

So, yeah. One topic woven into this discussion is not just the fact that men tend to have more upper body strength than women, but that they are overwhelmingly more likely to become perpetrators of sexual violence / rape than women are. Women rapists seem to be one of the rarest species of animal on the planet.

"And have you ever been stalked?"

In a manner of speaking, yes. Not in a "dating gone awry" way however. I and the organization I work with is/are being stalked presently by a nut case who can't take no for an answer. This stalking is current for me, and ongoing, and will likely soon involve our calling the police for trespassing. It's a long, complex story I will not detail on the open internet. But I am being victimized personally and we as a group are being victimized in various and numerous ways by a crazy, disgruntled former member. I'd not wish it on my worst enemy. The stalker in question used to be my friend. Or so I had thought.

_______

One last thing for now....

I'm a hiker, and so is my partner and so are most of my friends. We live in a mountain town at the Southernmost part of the Rocky Mountain chain.

We routinely see women hiking alone on the trails -- without dogs or men or firearms to protect them. Seeing this routinely has affected my sense of the level of risk women seem to face in my neck of the woods. I know this cannot be generalized to the larger world around me. I probably live in one of the safest places in the country.

 

[KC43]

Seeing women walking around alone with no visible means of protection doesn't necessarily mean they're safe. It might mean that they're sick and tired of having to take visible means of protection, and they're trying to just live their lives. It might mean that they aren't thinking clearly, or are naive to the dangers, or just don't give a shit anymore. (I had one friend years ago who deliberately walked home from bars, etc. alone... she was suicidal and instead of taking her life decided to try to have someone else take it.)

I've taken a number of unwise risks in my life, mostly during the year and a half between leaving my ex and meeting Hubby. The only time I was ever put in a position where something nonconsensual happened was with a guy one of my best friends set me up with, after a dinner out with my friend and the two women he'd brought along to spend the night with, in a hotel room with my friend four doors down the hall. Times when I did seriously stupid shit like driving 2 hours at 9pm to hook up with a guy I'd been chatting with online for a week or two, everything was perfectly fine.

But I was still seriously stupid. I was even stupider the couple of times I let a guy I'd been chatting with for a week or so come to *my* house; that was probably the worst thing I ever did, considering that hypothetically, they could have come back and harmed Alt and Country. (Hubby was the only guy I ever brought to the house when the kids were *there*; when the other guys I just mentioned came to my house, Alt and Country were with their father or grandparents for visitation. I was at least just barely smart enough not to bring total strangers to my home with my kids present.)

Just because nothing bad happened to me the times I took risks doesn't mean I should have taken the risks. It doesn't mean there were no risks. It means I was damn lucky. And in the 2 years or so since Alt started meeting guys on OKC and Tinder and such, I've had long talks with Alt about how to keep themself safe. Not that they've listened (they went on a first date with a guy last summer and immediately went home with him to spend five days--in another state!) but I've at least tried.

 

[River]

I know there are real risks. But I can't help wondering if we don't exaggerate them to any extent -- any extent at all.

To expand the context of such consideration, what about Donald Trump's stated worry about Muslims? and other "foreign" "threats"? He wants to build a wall around the country and keep the Muslims from coming in -- perhaps even get rid of the Muslims altogether. Should we build a wall to keep the Muslims and Mexicans out of the country? Should we throw the Muslims out? And the Mexicans too?

Should we barricade ourselves in our homes with shotguns loaded inside? Should we let the NSA, CIA, FBI... read our every email and listen to our every phone call in order to protect our "freedom"?

Just how bad is our safety situation, really? And if the Wolves are everywhere, all the time, who would get on a bus, take a train, leave their home, meet a new potential friend?

These are not snarky questions. If we are really so very unsafe that we must never speak to strangers or meet them at a coffee shop, perhaps we should be talking about THAT problem differently than we do. Because then we have a really big problem indeed.

I am not claiming here to have solutions. But if we're really this unsafe in our communities we will need to re-frame all of our conversations to that. That would be the topic, nothing else.

 

[IndieSolo]

. . . for twenty years I've lived in a remarkably safe small city with a violent crime rate far lower than the national average in many of the nation's large cities . . . I probably live in one of the safest places in the country.

And yet, after a quick Googling around, I found that Santa Fe has a prominent Rape Crisis and Trauma Center, and in New Mexico there appears to be a network of safe houses for people who need to escape from domestic violence. There is still so much shame attached to being abused or raped, people don't generally publicize that they are going to meetings for support around this issue.

I felt pretty safe in Santa Fe when I visited last year, but I still had to be on alert there, since I was traveling alone and walking around, doing things by myself. One day I took a walk in the late afternoon to check out the Railyard Park off Cerrillos Road and a weird little guy who was sitting on a bench in the park took an obvious interest in me and followed me a short way. I wasn't too scared of him, since I was probably a full foot taller and he seemed to be altered somehow (drugs), but I had no idea what he was up to, nor if he had a weapon, or friends nearby. So I quickly headed back to my hotel, which was very nearby. I am not the type of person who is always inviting situations like this, either. You just don't realize, River, that these things happen to women all the time, no matter where we are.

 

[River]

Seeing women walking around alone with no visible means of protection doesn't necessarily mean they're safe. It might mean that they're sick and tired of having to take visible means of protection, and they're trying to just live their lives.

I know some of these women, and this is exactly what they are doing. Living their lives. Not giving in to constant fear. Just being.

Are women really so unsafe in America that they cannot rightfully expect to take a hike in the mountains without a shotgun, attack dogs or armed security personnel? If they really are so unsafe, I think we should be discussing THAT problem, and not whether I'm being rude and insensitive to women by forcing the freaking question.

 

[River]

And yet, after a quick Googling around, I found that Santa Fe has a prominent Rape Crisis and Trauma Center, and in New Mexico there appears to be a network of safe houses for people who need to escape from domestic violence.

Rape and domestic violence are typically two very distinct things. Domestic violence generally involves spouses (or other domestic kin), for example. Rape generally does not. That my town has a rape crisis center is by no means indicative of the level of rape risk here. It is indicative of the fact that folks in our community look out for one another to some reasonable extent. That's a good sign, right? Now -- what percentage of American towns and cities have rape crisis support? Most of them, I suspect. Right?

You just don't realize, River, that these things happen to women all the time, no matter where we are.

I don't? Well, that's news to me.

Lots of terrible things happen to people most anywhere. But this does not invalidate my point that I'm in a safer town than many or most, now does it?

I concede your point that women ANYWHERE may end up a victim of abuse or rape. This is a terrible thing, and I do have concern about it. I'm 100% for making our communities -- everywhere -- safe for women (and men, and children, and animals...). What worries me is fear run rampant so that we live in fear rather than basic openness with our fellow humans. That's all.

 

[IndieSolo]

No, I wasn't saying that Santa Fe isn't as safe as you say it is, nor am I saying that the community doesn't take care of its residents. I think I expressed myself clumsily, perhaps.

What I meant to point out is that, even in a city that is generally considered very safe, I could not let my guard down. And, even in a relatively safe city, many victims do not report rapes due to shame.

I feel there are very few places a woman can let her guard down without any concern for her safety. It's a little bit different, to me, from "living in fear." I think it is just common sense because we have experienced and been taught the realities of being a woman in a patriarchal society. I'm glad you live in a place that is relatively safer than other cities; I wish I didn't have to always be on alert when I am out and about, or meeting people on dates, but the truth is, I need to be.

 

[FallenAngelina]

My work requires me to meet with people I don't know all the time -- usually in public settings such as a coffee shop or cafe. I've never placed a "safety call" -- though I'm perfectly aware of the fact that there are lots of bad and even dangerous people around. I guess I've just accepted the risk which comes with this fact and never taken extraordinary (to me) measures to protect myself from them.

Work meetings have a very different premise than meeting potential romantic and sex partners. To compare them is apples and basketballs. That said, I do see your overall point, River. While I certainly know all too well what a mine field of physical, emotional and psychological danger the world can be for a woman, and how very deeply the "act like a lady" training runs and what a radical, heroic act it is for any woman to take charge of her sexuality, it's not necessary to cut oneself off from the joy that is meeting potential romantic partners in the name of being safe. When I was actively dating online for two years, I did not run into one unsafe man out of perhaps 30. We always met in public and I always told a friend where I'd be. Beyond that, I only met up with men I had a warm feeling about and had communicated with in messaging and texting. I had many adventures and I probably did some things that are on a few of the aforementioned "Do Not Do" lists, but I always assumed that every man was genuinely looking for love. I would say that every single one was a "perfect gentleman" with me in his own way and certainly my safety was never compromised.

I post this, not to discount any else's reality, but to add to the mix of experiences that online dating can be tons of fun. Most men dating online are really quite wonderful people.

 

[River]

No, I wasn't saying that Santa Fe isn't as safe as you say it is, nor am I saying that the community doesn't take care of its residents. I think I expressed myself clumsily, perhaps.

What I meant to point out is that, even in a city that is generally considered very safe, I could not let my guard down. And, even in a relatively safe city, many victims do not report rapes due to shame.

I feel there are very few places a woman can let her guard down without any concern for her safety. It's a little bit different, to me, from "living in fear." I think it is just common sense because we have experienced and been taught the realities of being a woman in a patriarchal society. I'm glad you live in a place that is relatively safer than other cities; I wish I didn't have to always be on alert when I am out and about, or meeting people on dates, but the truth is, I need to be.

I deeply regret living in a society so freaking messed up that a woman has to live with any generalize fear around men. Much more than I can say! This should not be. It should NOT be. It shames me and grieves me that it is so. I do not deny that it is so at all.

I want EVERYONE to feel a basic sense of safety in their communities in their world.

 

[Spork]

I know there are real risks. But I can't help wondering if we don't exaggerate them to any extent -- any extent at all.

To expand the context of such consideration, what about Donald Trump's stated worry about Muslims? and other "foreign" "threats"? He wants to build a wall around the country and keep the Muslims from coming in -- perhaps even get rid of the Muslims altogether. Should we build a wall to keep the Muslims and Mexicans out of the country? Should we throw the Muslims out? And the Mexicans too?

Should we barricade ourselves in our homes with shotguns loaded inside? Should we let the NSA, CIA, FBI... read our every email and listen to our every phone call in order to protect our "freedom"?

Just how bad is our safety situation, really? And if the Wolves are everywhere, all the time, who would get on a bus, take a train, leave their home, meet a new potential friend?

These are not snarky questions. If we are really so very unsafe that we must never speak to strangers or meet them at a coffee shop, perhaps we should be talking about THAT problem differently than we do. Because then we have a really big problem indeed.

I am not claiming here to have solutions. But if we're really this unsafe in our communities we will need to re-frame all of our conversations to that. That would be the topic, nothing else.

I was trying to say something earlier that would have addressed this, but the internet connection at the office here was lost and so was my reply.

I was going to say that there is the real danger, and there is the social and cultural message that danger is ubiquitous and we have to protect ourselves from it.

Does anyone need LifeLock?

Does anyone need certain kinds of insurance that we pay for ~just in case?~

People play lottery. I'm a lot more likely to get raped than to win the lottery.

Sometimes the things we think about, prepare for, or do...aren't because something is extremely likely to happen. Just the fact that it could is enough.

In some cultures in the world, it's worse...women are considered property for the taking and must be protected and kept and owned by first father, then husband, then sons. Guarded and protected at all times, hidden from view so that other males won't simply take them.

Here in the US, we have the fact that rape prosecution is a complete joke, it is almost guaranteed to produce more trauma than justice in almost every case. And we're inundated with messages about how to prevent assault, how to keep ourselves safe, and that there is "stranger danger" everywhere, from a very young age, and we hear a lot about women who drink, women who dress provacatively, and the virtue in guarding our feminine bodily treasures from the unscrupulous.

Of course the reality is that abuse or rape or assault are a lot more likely from someone we already know who is a part of our lives, than from a stranger.

So there is the reality...and then there is the perception. The reality ain't great. There are a lot of assaults out there. Many that never get reported. But the perception is usually worse, as to how dangerous it really is.

And yet, women do still meet dates for coffee. We just try to put things in place to mitigate risk is all.

 

[River]

Work meetings have a very different premise than meeting potential romantic and sex partners. To compare them is apples and basketballs.

Yes. And also (perhaps) No.

What's at stake is whether these are "apples and basketballs" in terms of potential violence (with rape her understood as a form of violence).

Let me ask you (and all of the women here), Would you be more apt to meet an unknown (stranger) man at a coffee shop (or his home, your home, any private space...) on the basis of "work" than of "potential romance / sex"? If so, why?

Why is a work stranger safer than a play stranger?

 

[IndieSolo]

Well said, Spork.

 

[FallenAngelina]

Why is a work stranger safer than a play stranger?

Easy. For the simple fact that any time a woman puts forth her sexuality, she is stepping into a huge danger zone: real or imagined. Meeting a work stranger, the woman is "working" and not sexual in the least. Meeting a new date, a woman is putting herself forth as sexually expressed and if you don't think that carries very real and deeply ingrained dangers, you're not a woman. The world is full of unrelenting messages that a sexually expressive woman is either dangerous or in danger. Like I said, it's a heroic act for any woman to take charge of her sexuality. We can debate that in another thread, but that's the fact behind why meeting for work is a world away from meeting for a date.

 

[Spork]

Well said, Spork.

Thank you.

Yes. And also (perhaps) No.

What's at stake is whether these are "apples and basketballs" in terms of potential violence (with rape her understood as a form of violence).

Let me ask you (and all of the women here), Would you be more apt to meet an unknown (stranger) man at a coffee shop (or his home, your home, any private space...) on the basis of "work" than of "potential romance / sex"? If so, why?

Why is a work stranger safer than a play stranger?

I'd say that in general they aren't, but for one thing. Some men are very goal oriented and come to a date with expectations of what they are after and the outcome they desire, and then pursue it in a singleminded manner. They have a preconceived hope that they will get sex, for instance, some of them. Or they come expecting rejection and bearing a pre-emptive hostility about it. There are aggressive and defensive guys out there in the dating world. There are men who see women as they enemy, or opponent in a game, guarding a "goal" they want to attain.

Whereas for work, there may be a small chance that you'll meet someone who has some ulterior motive or is just a creep, but there's probably a greater chance (maybe depending upon your vocation!) that you'll meet someone professional who is there on a work meeting the same as you are.

 

[River]

And yet, women do still meet dates for coffee. We just try to put things in place to mitigate risk is all.

As well they should.

I was just surprised that women were commonly arranging "safe calls" (for example), where midway in a date -- in a public space -- the woman is expected to call a friend to say "Yeah, here I am still at the coffee shop and I'm okay (or "he hasn't harmed me." (Or some such.)

I could not help to wonder, from within my narrow experience, if these same women would go to a coffee shop or cafe on their own, with no date arrangement, without the 'safe call,' or whether they would go out in public at all without a safe call.

I speak as one whose primary mode of transportation is walking, so I spend a LOT of my time out in public, with all of the associated risks. Is my being a man really THAT different from the woman's experience -- that my experience is apples and basketballs? If so, I had not known. I see women in my community quietly going about their lives with men around them all the dang time, with little hint that they are afraid of being in public with men around.

Now, please understand, I'm not talking about bringing a man to her home --, or the man bringing the woman to her home --, or to any other non-public space. It is THIS which, for me, is apples and oranges (if not basketballs). If women are frequently afraid of potential rape in cafes and coffee shops in this country, I've got a lot to learn!

 

[River]

Easy. For the simple fact that any time a woman puts forth her sexuality, she is stepping into a huge danger zone: real or imagined. Meeting a work stranger, the woman is "working" and not sexual in the least. Meeting a new date, a woman is putting herself forth as sexually expressed and if you don't think that carries very real and deeply ingrained dangers, you're not a woman. The world is full of unrelenting messages that a sexually expressive woman is either dangerous or in danger. Like I said, it's a heroic act for any woman to take charge of her sexuality. We can debate that in another thread, but that's the fact behind why meeting for work is a world away from meeting for a date.

Well, okay. Indeed I am not a woman. I had thought I had a basic understanding of a woman's experience, but I may well have been far more mistaken on that than I had presumed.

My experience -- as a man -- about my being a sexual being is that I'm always a sexual being, period. I'm not sometimes a sexual being and sometimes not. As a man.

I had no idea that women were frequently treated as a sexual being sometimes, but never a sexual being while at work -- or whatever, whenever. How could anyone be so utterly stupid to think that women are ever NOT sexual beings, just as men are?

Honestly, my problem is that I have a very great difficulty empathizing with stupidity.

____________

And one more thing...

I NEVER treat any person's sexuality (man or woman) as a thing I can or would want to get from them.

I always think of and experience sexuality as something people can share together in mutuality. (The pleasure of sex is largely in the giving and receiving as gift.)

I have a very difficult time comprehending sex as a commodity or object I can "get" from somebody. Taking it is incomprehensible.

My whole frame of reference here has no real resonances with the mentality of a sexual predator -- which is a way of being I cannot comprehend.

I do fully comprehend that there are sexual predators. I just don't understand what it might be like to be such a person.

Sexual violence, for me, FEELS oxymoronic, in other words. Even though I know it exists, is terrible, and all that. It FEELS ... impossible. Upsidedown. Inconceivable.... but only in feeling, see. I know such a monstrosity is very real.