For Those Who Deeply Love Jesus

[MrFarFromRight]

This is one of the things I'm talking about when I say Christian BASHING. I fully agree that most Christians also have doubts. Most human beings at some point question their beliefs. This is normal.

But you make a generalizations and assumptions that 'most' Christians (and that's 2.1 billion, about a third of the world's population) both that they suppress those doubts, and about why they suppress those doubts.

Perhaps you've known Christians like that, but I have never in my life met or read a Christian who never had doubts, or who suppressed them, or who suppressed them only for fear of going to hell.
[...]And this is another instance of what is Christian BASHING: simply assigning 2.1 billion people as emotional, unable to think rationally. [...]

a) Stating that Christians have doubts is not Christian-bashing. You yourself say that and you're not a Christian-basher.

b) If Magdlyn makes assumptions about the whys of others' beliefs, she is - as you point out - wrong to do so. If she makes generalisations based on close observation of the Christians she has come across, she's also wrong. But it's perhaps understandable.

c) If you make the assumption that all of the 2.1 thousand million people who are CENSUSED as Christians are bona fide believers, you are also mistaken. These numbers often come from ethnic / cultural considerations. In Spain (where I live now) and Germany (where I used to), one is attributed a religion at birth (taking into account the parents [alleged] religion). In both countries - and (I would guess) in others - a portion of your income tax goes to the church that you've been assigned to. There are sincere Christians who protest at this practice, believing - as they should do - in the separation of Church and State.

In both countries it is a difficult bureaucratic process to officially divorce yourself from the religion that you are censused with. My German (ex) girlfriend did so... then, years later, considered attaching herself officially to a church because - in her line of work - it would have made getting a job easier. They didn't mind if she was Protestant or Catholic... as long as she had SOME religion. She could probably have become a Muslim. The important thing was to have FAITH.

I have never had this problem because - although I CHOSE to be baptised - I am not originally from either country and have therefore not entered the census as a believer.

All this means that there are millions of people (and who knows just how MANY millions?) who are officially Christians without being so in reality.

d) There are many, many Christians who question, keep an open mind, analyse... There are also many, many, many who feel that any kind of questioning is doubting God's Word and is therefore a SIN. I shouldn't limit this to Christians: Religion - in general - is perhaps the only arena in which CERTAIN SECTORS teach that thinking for yourself is negative, that the greatest virtue is BLIND FAITH, absolute submission. Well, OK: Religion and the Armed Forces. And the school system. And many hospitals. But Religion - from an early age - paves the way for all the others. One isn't born a soldier... or a woman in childbirth.

e) Again I quote you:

Perhaps you've known Christians like that, but I have never in my life met or read a Christian who never had doubts, or who suppressed them, or who suppressed them only for fear of going to hell.

It's obvious that you haven't met many of the Christians that I have.

Yeah but Magdlyn, the thread title is "For Those Who Deeply Love Jesus" and I just don't get the impression somehow that that describes you. [...] I figure let them have a thread to go to town in if it makes them happy. Cool historical and mythological discussion can happen elsewhere.

Leetah

It is possible to "Deeply Love Jesus" without being a "Christian"... or even being convinced that Jesus ever existed. I gave up being a "Christian" long ago, but I love his (note the small-case h) teachings - or those attributed to him - AS I UNDERSTAND THEM TO HAVE BEEN (which doesn't always square with the version in the Bible). And if there was a man in that time and place who taught what he did, I love him deeply for that. (As I hate how his teachings have been twisted and distorted to mean THE EXACT OPPOSITE of what he was really saying. "Love your neighbour AS YOURSELF" does NOT mean "Wallow in self-loathing" or "Put everybody else before your own interests".)

I once had a discussion with one of my fundamentalist-Christian brothers, in which I said:
"If I had to choose between sharing Heaven with Bush, Cheney, Pinochet, and Maggie Thatcher or hobnobbing in Hell with Gandhi, Bertrand Russell, and Emma Goldman, I'd go for the latter, no question, no hesitation.
"And do you know what?
"I bet that Jesus would come and sit at OUR table."

He probably thought me guilty of blasphemy.

 

[WhatHappened]

a) Stating that Christians have doubts is not Christian-bashing. You yourself say that and you're not a Christian-basher.
.

Perhaps you should have read the rest of my statement. I was quite clear that it's not bashing to say they have doubts, but to claim that they all squelch these doubts, and that they all do it out of fear of hell. She is making sweeping, negative generalizations. She goes on to make character assessments that it's impossible to have a rational discussion with a Christian, that they all act purely out of emotion.

Don't put words into my mouth.

 

[WhatHappened]

d) There are many, many Christians who question, keep an open mind, analyse... There are also many, many, many who feel that any kind of questioning is doubting God's Word and is therefore a SIN. I shouldn't limit this to Christians: Religion - in general - is perhaps the only arena in which CERTAIN SECTORS teach that thinking for yourself is negative, that the greatest virtue is BLIND FAITH, absolute submission. Well, OK: Religion and the Armed Forces. And the school system. And many hospitals. But Religion - from an early age - paves the way for all the others. One isn't born a soldier... or a woman in childbirth.

e) Again I quote you:It's obvious that you haven't met many of the Christians that I have..

d) You seem to be making this statement as if setting me straight. Is that your intention? Because I have no doubt there are Christians who feel that questioning is a sin. That changes absolutely nothing I said which was: Mags is making sweeping (and negative) generalizations. You and I are in agreement: Many, many Christians question, search, read, research, analyze, etc. and are...as I said, and contrary to Mags' generalization...coming to their faith with plenty of intelligence and reason, as opposed to the irrational, emotional people she paints them as.

As to religion teaching that you cannot think for yourself--you just pointed out that (at least in your opinion), there are multiple institutions that discourage thinking for oneself. I would add some atheists, some college professors, some liberals, to the list--there are absolutely those in virtually every group who claim to value 'thinking for oneself' but go on to insult, demean, and belittle anyone who comes to a different conclusion than they themselves do.

They hold themselves up as the authority, and declare anyone who comes to a different conclusion 'irrational,' or 'emotional,' or 'impossible to talk to,' or 'not thinking for themselves.

And here again--YOU are making sweeping, negative generalizations about religion as a whole.

e) Again, I ask, are you intending to refute anything I said? I have no doubt such people are out there. I never said they weren't. I said of all the many, many Christians I know and have met, I actually haven't met such people. I said I myself know and have met hundreds of Christians, and they are thoughtful, intelligent people. I said this specifically because mags seems to believe they don't exist, when in fact they're quite common and easy to find.

My point AGAIN was that broad sweeping, negative generalizations are being made, claiming that all or virtually all Christians are X, Y, Z. How is this any less bashing than if someone were to come on this forum and say, "It's impossible to have a rational conversation with a gay man,[or a pagan, or a liberal, or whatever group] they're all so emotional?"

I would hope that the point here is: Let's be kind to one another. Let's get to know people in different groups. I can respect and LIKE a person and acknowledge their intelligence even when I don't share their faith...or lack of faith...or politics...or whatever.

 

[Magdlyn]

Yeah but Magdlyn, the thread title *is* "For Those Who Deeply Love Jesus" and I just don't get the impression somehow that that describes you. Nowadays I might have flashes of deeply loving Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins so I would avoid a thread with this kind of title if I did not see you were posting. I figure let them have a thread to go to town in if it makes them happy. Cool historical and mythological discussion can happen elsewhere.

Leetah

I can deeply love Jesus' philosophy, the words he is made to say in the Bible, without being an "orthodox" Christian. I can be a "gnostic" seeker of God, and take in the tales about Jesus as part of my quest.

I understand orthodox Christians (and that would be the huge majority from 200 CE til now) will get super pissed off at my type of quest. Writers such as Justin in the third century were really pissed off at gnostics too. But do gnostics not have a right to claim they love Jesus? Why would I be so fascinated with this subject if it wasn't feeding me? I don't do it out of hatred. I am not a hater, but a lover.

It's OK if people aren't pleased with me. I can not do otherwise. I can not take the Virgin Birth literally. I can not agree the world/cosmos is merely 6000 years old. I do not believe Jesus died on a cross, and that graves burst open, and the dead emerged and walked in Jerusalem at the time of his death. Etc.

Now, I know many "liberal" Christians do not take the Bible literally. So, if you don't, but still "deeply love Jesus," how do you do it, and why are you so mad at me? Do you, like loveboston, just "ignore" parts of the Bible you don't like or understand? Is there some other way you make sense of the writings in this ancient book, rife with demons and actual monsters (in Revelation), while dwelling in 2015?

If you aren't afraid of hell, why do you stop questioning, and more importantly, how?

I don't think this is a bad question to ask of those who love Jesus. Unless you just want to sit around and praise God. Even though you don't actually know who god, Jesus, the Logos, the Spirit, is. Never mind who his mother and consort were.

 

[Magdlyn]

TI fully agree that most Christians also have doubts. Most human beings at some point question their beliefs. This is normal.

But you make a generalizations and assumptions that 'most' Christians (and that's 2.1 billion, about a third of the world's population) both that they suppress those doubts, and about why they suppress those doubts.

Perhaps you've known Christians like that, but I have never in my life met or read a Christian who never had doubts, or who suppressed them, or who suppressed them only for fear of going to hell.

OK, well, my pastor was a fundamentalist, and my ex in-laws were too. So as a child, and then as an adult from age 19-54, I spent a lot of time with fundies.

I have met people in the UU I attended for about 5 years, who probably ID as "liberal Christians," but I didn't bother getting into theological discussions with them, since they aren't constantly saying Praise Jesus or sending me tracts about hellfire and SIN.

Are you saying you and your liberal Christian friends have doubts, ask questions, and are completely satisfied with the answers both spiritually and rationally? And you don't believe in hell (despite its Biblical basis) so therefore do not fear it?

There are many great thinkers who have gone from atheism to Christianity based on historical evidence. C.S. Lewis, for one, set out to once and for all disprove Christianity, but the more he learned, the more he was 'dragged kicking and screaming' to belief.

While I quite like the Narnia books, I find Lewis' "Christianity" kind of flabby and embarrassing, frankly. I have read him and am not on his wavelength at all. Besides, he was writing a good 50 years ago, before the gnostic gospels and the Dead Sea Scrolls were unearthed. Those discoveries have rocked the world of Biblical studies.

I have a shelf full of books by some of the great minds of history who were Christian--plenty of whom converted to it after careful study. I have a number of books on the historical, archaeological, and scientific evidence pointing toward reason to believe in the Abrahamic God. You may disagree with the evidence. That's okay. But why do you feel it necessary to view those--including many highly educated professionals, professors, researchers, etc.--who think that evidence adds up to something different, as irrational, emotional, uneducated, or ignorant?

I take with suspicion any research done by Christian "believers." Give me one good reason to "believe in the Abrahamic God." And I hope it comes from the Bible. Because, I have read the Bible, many many times, and the more I read it, the less I believe in it as any kind of historical fact. And I have talked to many people raised Christian, who, as very young teens, sat down and read the Bible straight through, and came out the other end thinking, "This is one fantastical book! I am no longer a Christian."

I don't know what archeological evidence you think you have that "proves" there is a god and a Jesus as written in the Bible, or that the myths written about actually happened. I see TV shows sometimes about, "We found the Ark on a mountain in Turkey!" and stuff like that, and it's never really the Ark.

(And how did 2 of every animal on the earth fit on that boat anyway? As a liberal Christian, how do you explain things like that? I ask respectfully.)

There are great minds who are atheists and believe it's the most rational position. There are atheists who argue from emotion.

There are great minds who are Christian and believe it's the most rational position. There are Christians who argue from emotion.

Atheists can get emotional, but their POV is based in the scientific method. Some Christians might be rational people, but I maintain their Christianity does not come from reason, but from faith and belief in an invisible sky god. A "leap of faith." Or fear of hell. Or some other reason... not to disappoint their parents, or lose their community, lose their job, lose their "culture," or a feeling they owe it to their own kids to have them taught the "faith of their fathers."

An ancient Christian writer said he believes in the fleshly resurrection, and all should, just "because it is absurd."

I know some liberal Christians do not believe Jesus was the Son of God, but (merely) a teacher of goodnes and love, and they just leave it at that! But I find that cowardly, since the book they depend on for his teachings does claim he is the son of God, in a special way unlike we are all children of god!

You simply cannot make the broad, sweeping generalizations you routinely make, about an entire class of people. But you repeatedly, on all these threads, are clear that you think all [or at least most] Christians are unthinking and ignorant.

OK, prove me otherwise. Please. I seem to have satisfied loveboston, one of the most vocal lovers of Jesus on the board. He admits he just ignores the parts of the Bible he doesn't like or understand.

But I am willing to come to agreement with others also, who have other requirements for their belief. If it isn't emotional, what is the PURELY rational basis for a belief in the Abrahamic God and his godman son?

 

[Magdlyn]

BTW, if you cite Lee Strobel's The Case for Christ, save the wear and tear on your fingers... I read his book and found it 100% more embarrassing than CS Lewis.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Case-Chri...9GP349X8&dpSrc=sims&dpST=_AC_UL320_SR206,320_

I prefer this book:

The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man by Robert M Price

http://www.amazon.com/Incredible-Sh...8&qid=1441748000&sr=8-6&keywords=robert+price

And his book, The Case Against the Case for Christ: A New Testament Scholar Refutes the Reverend Lee Strobel

http://www.amazon.com/Case-Against-...8&qid=1441748000&sr=8-5&keywords=robert+price

 

[MrFarFromRight]

And here again--YOU are making sweeping, negative generalizations about religion as a whole.
[...]
My point AGAIN was that broad sweeping, negative generalizations are being made, claiming that all or virtually all Christians are X, Y, Z.

How do you extrapolate this from what I wrote???

1) My point, in an attempt to make it clearer:

a) SOME Christians are open to questioning the fundamental principles on which their faith is based. How does this translate as "sweeping statements".

b) I doubt that many Generals would come straight out and say to their soldiers: "It is WRONG to think for yourselves." The same goes for teachers and school boards, doctors, and hospital administrations. You might argue - and I'd agree with you - that this makes them hypocrites, because they WANT their victims not to think for themselves. (And I use that word "victims" very consciously. Soldiers ARE the victims of their commanding officers. Child-bearing women who are told to "lie back and leave this all to me" instead of being encouraged to do what feels most natural to them are VICTIMS of a hospital system that caters more for the convenience of its doctors than for the well-being of mother and child. Only VERY bad parents would say to their children: "Do NOT think! Do whatever I say WITHOUT thinking." As far as I'm aware, NO politician has ever said: "Do NOT look at the results of my policies before you vote. Do NOT judge me by my voting record, nor by how much money I have accepted from vested interests to whom I have later repaid the favour.")

And yet religious leaders (of ALL religions: not just Christians) who say openly: "Intellectualism is a tool of the DEVIL, to make you doubt your faith. Close your mind to his arguments, because I assure you: the Devil is MUCH cleverer than you are. In a 'logical' argument, he will win EVERY TIME!" are legion. PLEASE don't misquote me. PLEASE don't accuse me of saying that all are like that.

There is a scene in the New Testament where Jesus mocks Thomas for doubting. Today even non-Christians use the name "doubting Thomas" as a derogatory term.

I refuse to believe that ["my"] Jesus EVER mocked anybody for questioning ANYTHING.

+++++++++​

WhatHappened, you write that you never met a Christian who suppressed their doubts. You follow that with: "or who suppressed them only for fear of going to hell." My questions:
1) Does the first part of that stand by itself? "I have never in my life met or read a Christian [...] who suppressed [their doubts]"? (In which case surely "or who suppressed them only for fear of going to hell." is superfluous.)
2) Or do you mean "I have never in my life met or read a Christian [...] who suppressed [their doubts]... at least not any who suppressed them only for fear of going to hell."

My comment: I can believe that. And you have been very lucky in the community of Christians that you have associated with.

As I have earlier on this thread written, I grew up in a missionary family of fundamentalist Christians. It took me many years (AFTER I had turned my back on The Church) to have the courage to admit that [fundamentalist definition of my family] to myself. Magdlyn has had wide experience of fundamentalist Christians. I can assure you that it leaves a sour taste in the mouth. 2 of my "good Christian" brothers (I'm repeating myself here) bullied me into leaving my mother's house for the last 5 weeks of my first visit after 10 years of separation. They resented my fighting for her dignity against their bullying tactics and browbeating her. I was offered refuge by an aunt and uncle that I'd never got to know very well before that, 2 of the most truly Christ-like members of my family. I will never forget their generosity or open-heartedness. Not having a driving licence, I was dependent on others to drive me to occasional, SHORT visits to my mother's house. After my 5 weeks' exile was over and I boarded the plane to another continent, I never saw my mother again. I will never forgive those 2 brothers. They justified ALL their cruelty with Christian principles. (One of them also turned 2 of his children out of doors. He didn't allow any of his other children to attend his daughter's wedding. Her husband is a good, conservative Christian... but not her FATHER's choice of a good husband. Although I lived on another continent and couldn't possibly make the trip, she wrote to me to say: "I know that you won't be able to come. But I want at least to invite you to my wedding." NONE of her relatives attended.)

Bitter? Yes, I'm bitter. You're lucky. Many - if not most - of the Christians that I've come across have been real shits. Sweeping statements? No. I don't like them either.

I am currently in love - unrequited love - with an undoubting Christian. She is a good person, one of the finest people that I know. Does her faith make her so? It's a possibility. I'd like to believe that she'd still be a nice person even if she lost her faith. I am.

 

[WhatHappened]

Religion - in general - is perhaps the only arena in which CERTAIN SECTORS teach that thinking for yourself is negative, that the greatest virtue is BLIND FAITH, absolute submission.

I suspect this is going to sound like a generalization to most people. You even use the words 'in general.'

However, thank you for sharing a little more of your background. I do notice you talk a lot about fundamentalist Christians. This is only one part of Christianity. And the people you know are only some of them.

I do sympathize with you, btw. I grew up in a family that professed a certain faith, that also has a history of alcoholism. If I judged the faith by their behavior, I would feel the same. However, it was the alcoholism that is responsible for their bad behavior, not the faith--whose teachings they didn't follow as well as they think they do.

We cannot judge the beliefs or dogmas of a faith by the behavior of individuals, because often enough, people are not actually living what the faith teaches. Sometimes those people themselves are still learning and growing--aren't we all human and don't we all make mistakes?

I am glad that you can believe I have met plenty of good Christians--people who would walk any distance with me, give me the shirt off their backs, people who have been there for me in my most difficult times. I also know people of great joy. I think you and I are not really so far apart in our thoughts.

Mags, your post really highlights exactly what I think Mighty Max was saying: maybe posts like this are the real reason no Christians are speaking up. I didn't come here to prove Christianity to you. Your mind is made up. You are critical, sneering, and dismissive of Christians, calling them 'fundies,' referring to writing you disagree with as 'embarrassing' rather than state why you disagree with it--ie, simply tossing insults, really.

You have made several assumptions about me in your post. I never said I'm a liberal Christian. I never said I'm Christian at all.

I said I agree with Mighty Max that there may well be Christians on this board who don't bother replying to any post associated with Christianity on this board exactly because of this sort of thing. People are not here to be attacked, to be called 'fundies,' to be told no one of their ilk can be spoken to rationally, to blatantly state that any research done by Christians is likely suspect anyway...really, as I said before, if I said these things about any other group, it would be called bigotry and hatred.

As I said before, many people simply don't have the time. I not only don't have the time, I do not have the interest in 'proving' anything to you. Your mind is made up. We can toss sources back and forth all day, and it's not going to make any difference.

Believe what you like. My point was, is the vitriol and hatred really necessary? I'm sorry you've had bad experiences with some people who called themselves Christians, but your hatred of them is eating away at your own heart. You might find a whole world out there, of people who would love you and be dear and valued friends, if you'd treat them as people, get to know them, instead of thinking of them upfront as you clearly do.

My valued and closest friends, btw, range from very devout Christians to atheists to pagans...because I do not judge them. I accept and love them and get to know them for who they are, instead of judging them based on their beliefs.

I find it sad that over and over on this forum, the word Christianity can't be said without the thread turning into exactly what this has become--not a place for people who love Jesus, but a long discussion of how awful a couple members of this forum think Christians are.

 

[WhatHappened]

I am currently in love - unrequited love - with an undoubting Christian. She is a good person, one of the finest people that I know. Does her faith make her so? It's a possibility. I'd like to believe that she'd still be a nice person even if she lost her faith. I am.

This made me smile.

My XBF and I were of very, very different beliefs. But 18 months or so after the break up, I think we're still in love with each other, still unable to tear apart. I find him full of wonderful qualities, and he likewise admired a great deal about me. He took part in my spiritual practices, and I in his. At the heart of it, we shared core values about how to treat others and how to live life.

 

[MightyMax]

I find this utterly hilarious and it's been my exact experience of pretty much everyone. The thing I like about religious people is that they will often admit that they have narrow, quite bigoted beliefs but they think their beliefs are the key to heaven so they don't actually care what you think about them. Atheists now - whole different story - they hate to be thought of as closed minded or bigoted so they will argue blind that they are not that sort of person, all whilst dismissing the views and beliefs of others, making offensive, sweeping generalizations and basically taking over any "safe space" for theists to share their views. Ie being a bigot! Again, I KNOW Theists are equally capable of this behavior, but Atheists claim that it's this sort of thing that is so desperately wrong about religion. I'd much rather someone who is an overt bigot than a covert bigot. At least I know the Muslims will cut off my head if I do things they disagree with. The Atheists will pretend to welcome me and then throw me under a bus when I least expect it.

It's hilarious!


Magdyln, and MrFarFromRight, thanks for the laughs. It's amazing how you two resemble everything you claim is wrong with religion. It's truly funny... but a little sad too. Just remind me why the "religious bullies" thread wasn't apt for you to share your views?

 

[Magdlyn]

CS Lewis' famous Liar, lunatic or Lord trilemma:

I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God."

That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”
― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

This assertion presupposes we take all the Bible as literal fact, despite the gaps, the contradictions, the belief in demons, the symbolism, etc.

Only lying about himself, a demon or insane? Are those really our only
options?

I don't hate CS Lewis or any Christian (even Josh Duggar), but I just don't find their arguments or lifestyle appealing, nor do they convince me that I should join their side.

Here is a good, simple, basic refutation of Lewis' argument.

https://corthodoxy.wordpress.com/20...with-c-s-lewis-trilemma-liar-lunatic-or-lord/

 

[Magdlyn]

... the "trilemma" is popular among amateur apologists for Christianity. It was first popularized by C.S. Lewis... It is logically weak, but it is rhetorically powerful... [it] was originally for a radio broadcast, and is probably more properly construed as a rhetorical argument rather than a formal logical one... there are other unmentioned alternatives, for example, that Jesus as described in the gospels is a legendary figure, so that the trilemma is false as it stands.

Logically weak, a mere catchy rhetorical argument, not logical, appealing more to the emotions than to the rational mind; which led me to call his assertions and "proofs" flabby.

http://infidels.org/library/modern/jim_perry/trilemma.html

 

[MrFarFromRight]

Originally Posted by MrFarFromRight View Post
Religion - in general - is perhaps the only arena in which CERTAIN SECTORS teach that thinking for yourself is negative, that the greatest virtue is BLIND FAITH, absolute submission.

I suspect this is going to sound like a generalization to most people. You even use the words 'in general.'

I wrote: "CERTAIN SECTORS". This is NOT generalisation. What I meant by "Religion - in general - " was "Religion - NOT just Christianity - "
So... "CERTAIN SECTORS" of MOST religions (with very few exceptions, which I will not name for fear of starting up another round of accusations from other users) teach that thinking for yourself is negative, that the greatest virtue is BLIND FAITH, absolute submission. Is that OK?

You write that you have known Christians "who would walk any distance with me, give me the shirt off their backs, people who have been there for me in my most difficult times". So have I. Some (not - I hope - all) of them did so because their religion told them to. I have also known Buddhists, Wiccans, Muslims, agnostics, and Religion-HATING atheists who would do - and have done - the same. Aside from the Buddhists and the Muslims (some of whom might have been obliged by their religions' teachings), the rest did so because they were good people.

I have also met Christians who have rejected me completely as a person because of the fact that I am not one of them. I have also met Christians (including an 8-year-old nephew of mine) who have taken GREAT glee in announcing to me that I am headed for eternal, excruciatingly-painful damnation. I would find it very difficult to remember a single instance of anybody from any of the other groups mentioned above (you will notice that I left out the Jews [the self-proclaimed "God's Chosen Race"] and the neo-Nazis*, also people who vote Conservative and hard-line Leftists: some of these 4 groups might fit into the last paragraph, but none of these groups fit in this present statement) treating me like that.

* A few weeks back, while hitch-hiking, I got a lift from someone who had written a book that was so right-wing that it had been put on Germany's "A-list": books that are not allowed to be advertised nor sold to people under 21. He himself will never be allowed to become a teacher because of that book (not that he wants to be, that's just the law). If I had known his political views, I'd never have asked him for a lift. We had a mutually respectful, very interesting conversation, agreed to differ, and I - being over 21 - expressed interest in reading his books. Whether he would class himself as neo-Nazi, I don't know and didn't ask.

[My computer's spelling check is suggesting that I "correct" neo-Nazi to no-Nazi, neon-Nazi, eon-Nazi, or nee-Nazi. This is taking political correctness TOO far!]

 

[MrFarFromRight]

I find this utterly hilarious and it's been my exact experience of pretty much everyone. The thing I like about religious people is that they will often admit that they have narrow, quite bigoted beliefs but they think their beliefs are the key to heaven so they don't actually care what you think about them. [...] At least I know the Muslims will cut off my head if I do things they disagree with.

WOW!!!​

Who's the bigot here???

But then again, judging from your preferences,

I'd much rather someone who is an overt bigot than a covert bigot.

not really all that surprising, after all.

 

[MrFarFromRight]

I'd much rather someone who is an overt bigot than a covert bigot.

So you can be proud of yourself.
Always [???] a sign of being well-adjusted.

 

[MightyMax]

WOW!!!​

Who's the bigot here???

But then again, judging from your preferences,not really all that surprising, after all.

Actually, I've lived in countries where Sharia Law is the done thing, where you will be beheaded, stoned, or otherwise horrifically executed (read murdered) for having a different belief system or for certain benign (by most people's standards at least) behaviors. I'm not talking about Muslim communities in the West here, I'm talking about the Middle East and certain parts of Asia and Africa. Of course they are bigoted, but they don't hide it from anyone. They don't pretend to be anything else.


Nice try though.


Again, what's wrong with keeping your obvious hatred towards all things Theological to the "religious bullies" thread?

 

[MrFarFromRight]

Originally Posted by MrFarFromRight

WOW!!!​

Who's the bigot here???

But then again, judging from your preferences, not really all that surprising, after all.

Actually, I've lived in countries where Sharia Law is the done thing, where you will be beheaded, stoned, or otherwise horrifically executed (read murdered) for having a different belief system or for certain benign (by most people's standards at least) behaviors. I'm not talking about Muslim communities in the West here, I'm talking about the Middle East and certain parts of Asia and Africa. Of course they are bigoted, but they don't hide it from anyone. They don't pretend to be anything else.


Nice try though.


Again, what's wrong with keeping your obvious hatred towards all things Theological to the "religious bullies" thread?

There is a big difference between saying "Some Muslims would cut off my head if I [did] things they disagree with." and saying "I know the Muslims will cut off my head if I do things they disagree with."

I'm [almost] assuming that you ARE do[ing] things they disagree with. So, when are "the Muslims" coming for you?

Magdlyn and I have been accused of making hateful, sweeping statements. None of what either of us has written seems to me anywhere near as hateful or sweeping as that statement that you made.

Let me just try: I have lived in a country where righteous Christian Ku Klux Klanners have hanged men by their wrists from trees and lit fires under them, then raised and lowered their victims while they screamed in agony, while the victims' families stood to the side and prayed to the torturers' God, and the torturers' friends and their families sat on the grass, having a picnic and laughing at the whole show. And all because those "uppity niggers" had had the temerity to touch a woman of a different colour, look sideways at her, or accidentally lick their lips at the wrong moment.

Nope, sorry! I couldn't do it. I couldn't say that all Christians act like this. I couldn't even write that all Ku Klux Klanners act like this. I just couldn't find it in myself to write "I know the Christians will burn my friend slowly if he touches a White woman."

BTW, I'd MUCH rather have my head chopped off (or even - Heaven preserve me! - be stoned to death) than be lynched à la Ku Klux Klan.

If you will read my past comments, you'll find that I've written

It is possible to "Deeply Love Jesus" without being a "Christian"... or even being convinced that Jesus ever existed. I gave up being a "Christian" long ago, but I love his (note the small-case h) teachings - or those attributed to him - AS I UNDERSTAND THEM TO HAVE BEEN (which doesn't always square with the version in the Bible). And if there was a man in that time and place who taught what he did, I love him deeply for that.

It is also possible to CALL yourself a Christian while hating everything that Jesus really stood for.

INCLUDING accepting the outsider, loving those of different beliefs... and tolerance.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Judging by your spite-filled, prejudiced posts, I have MORE right to be on this thread than you have.

 

[MightyMax]

As i said, nice try on trying to turn it around on me but you are still an Atheist Christian bashing in a thread called "For Those Who Deeply Love Jesus". Carry on, you're simply proving my point.

 

[Magdlyn]

I am sorry I used the word "fundie." That was wrong of me.

I do not hate Christians.

Christians however, have a tendency to feel persecuted and martyred anytime anyone questions their theologies. I've seen this on small and large scales.

I am not an atheist. I have my own spiritual gnosis and practices. They differ from orthodox Christianity, but they work for me. My feeling is "all is god, or nothing is."

For me, God is not a separate entity. God is in me, in you, in every human, animal, plant and rock, and in endless reaches of space above and around us. God is the unifying forces that makes matter exist in the spinning of atoms that let us perceive objects as solid, which is really just an illusion.

If that sounds like hatred to some, I guess I just need to bow out.

 

[kdt26417]

Re:

"Christians however, have a tendency to feel persecuted and martyred anytime anyone questions their theologies."

This is often true.

I cannot, and will not, forbid anyone from posting on this thread who wants to post on this thread. I stand by all I wrote in my original post. I ask that those who post play nice, but, I know that "play nice" can be interpreted in quite a range of different ways, so, I can only hope that things will be nicer on this thread than perhaps they would on some other thread.

Yes I intentionally gave the thread a name that would suggest that "Non-lovers of Jesus need not apply;" however, if I'd really meant it that way, I couldn't have started the thread because I myself am an atheist who doubts Jesus' one-time existence.

I love the man whom I'd like to think Jesus was. That's the most I can say in my defense.