French and Polyamory

[Ravenscroft]

It's one thing to have laws on the books that don't prohibit minorities to run for office, it's quite another to actually elect them.

Well, to be fair, if the U.S. has had such a "lead time" on this, we have certainly not done better.

One Catholic POTUS -- how many since?

How many non-Xtians? Past the Founding Fathers, it seems like we've just had a collection of bible-thumpers & those who kiss bible-thumper butt.

I truly loathe DINO Joe Lieberman... but was interested in seeing whether a Jew could be elected as VPOTUS. (We had one in the past, but that was due to succession.)

 

[Tonberry]

I'm French as well, although I live in the US now. Not sure what to add to this thread right now but I thought I'd pop in and say hi

 

[Al99]

How many non-Xtians? Past the Founding Fathers, it seems like we've just had a collection of bible-thumpers & those who kiss bible-thumper butt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_affiliations_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States

4 Unitarians - non-Christian

2 Quakers - Christian - but certainly not fundamentalist Bible Thumpers - and quite different than traditional Christianity.

A lot of Episcopalians, Methodists, and Presbyterians on the list - mainline protestantism, with these three examples being far more progressive than in years past, and obviously more progressive than the evangelical fundamentalists - although even these more progressive denominations vary by region - with the southern churches in these denominations being more conservative than other areas of the country.

A Mormon (Romney) came close.

Interestingly, scholars are divided about Lincoln.

And, as Ravenscroft pointed out - even those with moderate personal views have to publicly demonstrate a degree of personal religious conviction if they are to have any chance of winning.

A few more cents worth - although not really about France. (sorry...) Al

 

[Ravenscroft]

If the voting populace figures "he's a good church-going, God-fearing Christian," reality doesn't matter. It's like the converse of a mistaken hate crime.

4 Unitarians - non-Christian

Well, you know that, & I know that...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States

Restorationists and other Christians like the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Latter Day Saint movement, Churches of Christ and Church of Christ, Scientist, as well as Unitarian and Universalist communities all spread in the 19th century.

I figure that somewhat upwards of 99.99% of Unistaters would have no idea that Unitarians (formerly Congregationalist, for those who've read history) try to distance themselves from triple-deity Xtianity -- they're sorta wimpy about that, though.

Anyway, half the Unitarian prexies were the Adams boys, so "Founding Fathers."

2 Quakers - Christian - but certainly not fundamentalist Bible Thumpers

Oh, yah, them good liberals, Herbert Hoover & Richard Nixon. I think that falls under "kissing bible-thumper butt."

A Mormon (Romney) came close.

True: Mormons are Christian in the same way that Christians are Jews. But, again, notice that LDS is generally on the same list as UU as "Bible-based" therefore Xtian.

We can elect a black man, maybe even a woman (she DID win the popular vote...) to be POTUS. But let someone stand up & proclaim some other religion -- or maybe none at all -- & they won't have many friends.

...yet. As church-going declines, with people becoming increasingly skeptical &/or rationalist &/or Facebook-addled, & the blinding-white Caucasians losing numeric dominance, I suppose it's possible I might live long enough to see a Muslim & an activist Atheist go head-to-head.

 

[Del]

Then I looked, and found this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mary-duncan/love-french-style_b_4154267.html

And this one, which says that mainly French people find it vulgar to be overt about affairs...
http://www.salon.com/2015/03/12/the_french_are_not_as_cool_with_infidelity_as_you_think/

(So I imagine a lot of DADT hushie hush going on!)

I had a read at last and the Huffington post article is still a little bit of caricature to me. But the Salon, I would mostly agree with.

 

[Al99]

Originally Posted by Al99
2 Quakers - Christian - but certainly not fundamentalist Bible Thumpers
Ravenscroft replied:
Oh, yah, them good liberals, Herbert Hoover & Richard Nixon. I think that falls under "kissing bible-thumper butt."

True enough - Neither did the Quaker brand proud - as it is usually associated with "liberal" causes - social justice, pacifism, etc...

We can elect a black man, maybe even a woman (she DID win the popular vote...) to be POTUS. But let someone stand up & proclaim some other religion -- or maybe none at all -- & they won't have many friends.

...yet. As church-going declines, with people becoming increasingly skeptical &/or rationalist &/or Facebook-addled, & the blinding-white Caucasians losing numeric dominance, I suppose it's possible I might live long enough to see a Muslim & an activist Atheist go head-to-head.
Yesterday 01:11 AM

I wouldn't bet my retirement accounts on it.

 

[vinsanity0]

True enough - Neither did the Quaker brand proud - as it is usually associated with "liberal" causes - social justice, pacifism, etc...



I wouldn't bet my retirement accounts on it.

Why not? It's a safe bet. He only loses when he dies, but if he wins he doubles his money.

Quakers are just as hypocritical as any other brand of Christian. In his autobiography, Ben Franklin had a funny story about the Quakers. They would not okay money for use for gunpowder. They okay'd it when "other powders" was substituted. I guess they wanted plausible deniability if God asked, "Why did you sign THIS?"

 

[Lul]

Hi, so just a french who discovered that polamory was a thing recently, I found this post and just want to tell a bit about the overall feeliing I've got about it in the French culture :

So, as a starter, french litterature, cause yes, there's a bit to say in that. Les liaisons dangereuses, sorry I don't have the author's name.... basically how two ex-lovers now rival try to seduces as many people or the same person, I don't remember exactly... But basicaly it's about more than two peoples in romantics (and sexual if my memory is good) relationship... So I suppose there is that.

Secondly, the gender standard. A man cheating in France is usually just shrugged of, not by his partener but it's not "abnormal". That's probably why it's not that shocking when a french celebrity is caught and it's a big deal yet not that much.... A woman caught cheating on the contrary is seen as the worst person in the world.... Yeay for double standard...
But young adults enjoying life and having multiples relationships in the same time won't be completly frown upon. Although people will assume the person having more than one relationship is cheating.

Oh, also, this is a big caricature, but South France people will be a bit more dramatic, north People wil be a bit more layed back, so there's that too... A cheating affair might become more of a melodrama in south France...

Anyways, in France, everywhere I've been, (I don't know about Paris) adultery is not something you'll do obviously, and also french people tend to assume a lot, it's always better to talk with your partener first.... That's one thing I whish more french would understand....

Also the French revolution hapen after the king decided to help the american revolution, creating a great financial debt. On which the queen didn't help either. But it also came in the middle of the "lumière" where philosophers were defending a society with more equality. There came the "Etats généraux" basically a big council called on by the king to solve the debt problem, with representant of the noble, the clergy and the "tier-état" the people, basicaly. and the people representants decided that they had enough of the others's privileges so they launch a revolt.... The rest is history.
So the american revolution does have a role in the french revolution in a way, mostly because it put the king in a bad place. But it probably wasn't a "model" for the french, a rural country where most village barely got news from the nearest town if it wasn't a state affair.

Okay, I'll stop there, hope it was understandable !
May anybody reading that have a good day

 

[FallenAngelina]

So the american revolution does have a role in the french revolution in a way, mostly because it put the king in a bad place. But it probably wasn't a "model" for the french....

I know it's hip to dog on the USA, but this claim of yours is absurdly false. If this is the typical assumption in France, it's the height of hubris. Of course the American revolution inspired the French revolution. No country had ever done such a thing in the history of mankind. Sure, history is full of coups and revolts, but no republic had ever formed as a result of a democratic revolution and certainly nothing on such a scale. The French revolution would never have happened without the inspiration and modeling of the Americans.


How Did the American Revolution Influence the French Revolution?
"The Americans’ victory over the British may have been the single greatest impact on the French Revolution. The French people saw that a revolt could be successful – even against a major military power – and lasting change was possible. Many experts argue that this gave them the motivation to rebel.
The newly-formed government of the United States also became a model for French reformers. Ideas that were once just abstract thoughts – such as popular sovereignty, natural rights, constitutional checks and balances and separation of powers – were now part of an actual political system that worked.....The National Assembly in France even used the American Declaration of Independence as a model when drafting the Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen in 1789."

 

[opalescent]

Lul is correct. Yes there was some impact of the American Revolution on the French Revolution. However the French Revolution was primarily shaped by French experience and history and not so much outside influences. For example, it was a real Revolution in ways the American one never was. The US was formed out of a revolt of wealthy land owners/slave owners and merchants. These people did not want a democracy and didn’t create one. Instead it was a republic of landowners. To their credit they did create ways for the republic to change and grow. But other people fought for their rights to be included in voting and legal rights. The French Revolution was a radical revolt by poor urban dwellers and poor peasants (at least until it turned on the radicals later on.) The French Revolution is the model for how all revolutions have been studied, understood and debated ever since. All revolutions ever since have been compared and contrasted to the French Revolution.

The French Revolution was much bigger deal and more important to world history than the American Revolution. The end of the monarchy and the subsequent upheavals - the Terror, Napoleon, etc. - shaped European and world history way more than a relatively weak and unimportant new nation did.

Don’t rely on the History Channel - it is actually rather bad at history.

 

[FallenAngelina]

The French Revolution was much bigger deal and more important to world history than the American Revolution.

Did the French stage a "better" revolution than the not-even-a-country-yet United States? Possibly. Highly debatable. The answer would be found in the long term outcome, which by any measure would be enormously positive for both countries. Any historical event is going to have clashing perspectives, but the vast majority of sources would take the position I presented as a matter of course. That the revolutions were different was not my premise. (But if you think that "regular" people did not willingly fight in the American Revolution, then you are woefully ill informed.) Which was more "important" is a matter of debate and also not my premise. That the French were not heavily influenced and inspired by the recent victory of the American Revolution in which they participated is laughably absurd. While there were indeed many domestic reasons, the French Revolution absolutely was modeled on and inspired by the success of the American revolt against the tyranny of the British Crown.

 

[JaneQSmythe]

Hi, so just a french who discovered that polamory was a thing recently, I found this post and just want to tell a bit about the overall feeliing I've got about it in the French culture :

Hello, welcome! Glad to have you! Interesting that your first post is here, in a thread that I know less than nothing about - and, apparently, some have strong opinions on.

A man cheating in France is usually just shrugged of, not by his partener but it's not "abnormal"...A woman caught cheating on the contrary is seen as the worst person in the world.... Yeay for double standard...

I feel like this is slowly changing here in the US...first men cheating was condoned, then villianized, then women cheating caught up....

But young adults enjoying life and having multiples relationships in the same time won't be completly frown upon. Although people will assume the person having more than one relationship is cheating.

So, this is something that is brought up here a lot - that current American culture assumes that you can only "date" one person at a time. Basically that you are exclusive if you agree to a second date! That seems ridiculous to some of us...

 

[Evie]

So, this is something that is brought up here a lot - that current American culture assumes that you can only "date" one person at a time. Basically that you are exclusive if you agree to a second date! That seems ridiculous to some of us...

This strange phenomenon is the norm here (NZ) too and has been all of my "dating" life. It's like we never grow out of the notion of "going around" with someone like we did when first starting to partner up in the school yard. Teenagers are some of the worst at seeing each other as commodities and possessions. Especially young women. They will fight horrifically over guys. And god help the young woman who says yes to a date with a guy who some other girl believes belongs to her. The scarlet letter is no longer A for adulteress, it's S for skank. There's a word that needs to be scrubbed from any language.