Giving & Receiving

River

River

Well-known member
I'm wanting to participate in a heartfully intelligent conversation on giving and receiving as crucial parts of all kinds of relationships, be they platonic friendships, romantic relationships, or whatever.

I'm thinking/feeling that, as an American, I dwell within a cultural milieu in which, sadly, we as a people don't well understand what giving and receiving are and how they fit together. I suspect it is the fact that our exchange econoy has so nearly totally overtaken our culture that we don't know much about what either is -- in relation to gift.

Giving is never a part of an exchange, because exchange means tit for tat, this for that, equality of barter -- not gift.

How, then are we able to receive? And how can we truly give if we do not receive?

We tend even to think of our intimate relationships in exchange terms, rather than gift terms -- such as our use of the word "negotiate". Yes, some negotiation is necessary, but if that's all we have: negotiation, how will giving and receiving fit into our relating?
 
Hi River

kind of related to this, I've recently become acutely aware I'm good at saying thank you, but not at saying please. This is conceptual rather than just lacking manners, I don't feel comfortable asking for much (I also suck as "closing" as in sales). I love giving though. And I'm grateful to receive, I just don't ask so well. I'm working on it though.

Also, a while ago, I offered reciprocation to one of my dear friends after he'd helped me through a particularly tough time. He very gently shut down that notion by expressing that our love meant there was never any need to keep score. So, yes, there is room for a gift economy in relationships, even though this current market economy driven world would has often been very effective in convincing us otherwise.

ka kite
Evie
 
I love this topic; I've been thinking about it a lot lately. I think you're right.. there's something about Western culture and capitalism that everyone seems to keep score with their giving and many people seem to think they've been taken advantage of... that they are giving SO much and getting taken advantage of over and over. I don't think that necessarily means we have a culture of takers, just a culture of being scared of giving without getting. It's not something people always do consciously, but when conflicts seem to come to a head you hear a lot of "I *always*" and "you NEVER", and often with rebuffs on the other side.

Now I'm sure there are times when you have one person consistently giving and never receiving, in many kinds of relationships.. but I think by and large people are pretty balanced with their gift and take, we just don't KNOW it because we are looking for and expecting completely different things than what we might actually get.

Example: my dad is not very affectionate or verbal with his affection. I could hug him and praise him until I was blue and I would never get that kind of gift back. Because it's how *I* show love and how *I* give, I may look for the same thing to be given in return. But my dad just doesn't work like that. My dad instead often gives me money toward big things in my life because he's so proud of how I planned it and worked hard for my goals. My dad tells OTHER people how awesome I am, not me directly. So he does give, in his own way. But if I expect back only what I give, I'm probably going to not notice the ways he DOES give.

My partner is much the same way; sometimes he can be very affectionate and verbal about it, but not as much as me. For the most part, he shows how he loves me in all the little things; opening the garage door for me so I don't have to get out and do it in the cold, sending me funny videos when he knows I'm having a bad day, stoking the fire in the morning when he leaves so I don't wake up to a cold house, calling me randomly during the day to tell me little things about his day, doing extra work on the weekends so we can be closer to certain life goals. They are not obvious, they are not the way *I* give but it is giving.

So I think maybe sometimes people are giving in completely different ways, so the other person doesn't always notice it, because they are looking for how they themselves give and not how their friend/partner/family member might be giving. I do think to an extent giving without expectation has made me a happier person; I *love* giving. I have gotten stuck in the bad habit of thinking giving in a certain way would elicit the same behaviour back from someone, which was disappointing and foolish (unless you specifically ask for that from someone else and they are happy to try). I have found giving more without expecting has opened me up to see all the ways others DO give in unexpected ways, and I don't feel it is unbalanced much anymore. Although I am often bothered when people do things and I feel an expectation from them to give the same back all the time; I am not sure how to resolve that just yet.

But I am sure things do get out of balance sometimes and that it can be worked on; there are going to be times when we don't feel nourished in a relationship so I think in those instances maybe their giving styles just don't mesh or one/both person(s) may have some issues to work through (or one person is just outright toxic/abusive and it's not resolvable). I think sometimes we try too hard with giving in trying to get some kind of specific behaviour out of another person, so we feel disappointed and like they let us down, but we actually created the imbalance by giving an unsustainable amount and expecting that same right back but that is unfair to ourselves AND the other person.
 
Great topic, River! It's something I, too, have been considering. I've been described as a 'giving' person by many people. In the past, I've accepted this label and not put much thought into the actual 'giving' or 'receiving'. However, in a quest to be a more authentic, compassionate me, I've recently been examining my motives for everything, including why I give what I give. I do enjoy giving, just for giving's sake...but I've found that I frequently do expect some level of reciprocity, even if I'm not consciously aware that I am. Usually, it's simply an expectation of gratitude, but sometimes, there's a deeper expectation (like hoping someone will then do something for me that I can't do for myself, aka manipulation.) The manipulation thing was particularly painful to acknowledge. Thankfully, it's easy enough to eradicate by simply asking for what I want.

The expectation for gratitude, on the surface, sounds innocent enough, but that's exactly why it's not. I loved everything that Mrs. Brightside said, particularly this:

MrsBrightside said:
I think by and large people are pretty balanced with their gift and take, we just don't KNOW it because we are looking for and expecting completely different things than what we might actually get.

So I think maybe sometimes people are giving in completely different ways, so the other person doesn't always notice it, because they are looking for how they themselves give and not how their friend/partner/family member might be giving.
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I think this can be applied to expressions of gratitude, too. How one person expresses and recognizes gratitude isn't necessarily how another person expresses it.

I think this is why giving in secret feels so good...because we know that we won't receive anything in return, we're free to just enjoy the act of giving :) Ok, and maybe the "high" and all the benefits that comes with the giving ;)

As selfish as my motives for giving can sometimes be, I think I'm worse at receiving! I always feel like I need to "do" something more than just express my gratitude to the giver. As Blue pointed out to me, this is not really fair to the giver! It's an area I'm actively working on.

There are so many facets to the acts of giving and receiving. I'm really enjoying reading everyone else's take.
 
I give too much sometimes, according to Hubby, Guy, and Best Friend (the three people in my life who know me the best). I was brought up to believe that my only purpose in existing was to meet everyone else's needs and take care of everyone else, and that's what I do, often to my own detriment. I want the people I care about to be happy and to have their needs met, and I do everything I can to contribute to those things, even if it hurts me to do so.

I don't expect any reciprocity from my partners, because part of my conditioning as a child, teen, and younger adult was the belief that *I* don't deserve to be happy or have my needs met, I'm just supposed to make sure those things happen for everyone else. I give because it's what I'm "supposed to" do, but also because helping someone or putting a smile on their face or whatever helps me to feel more positive about myself. Mental illness might be telling me I'm a worthless piece of shit, but at least I called Woody when he needed someone to talk to, or I sewed that shirt Hubby loves that he ripped, or whatever.

Receiving, though... I'm still learning that. My partners frequently bring me to tears by doing something as simple as offering to take care of a chore for me, or buy me a pair of shoes, or get a battery put in my car. Receiving service or gifts from them is very difficult, partly because I fear I don't deserve it and partly because I fear accepting it will obligate me to something I might not be okay with. I also worry about "using" them by not somehow giving back as much as they're giving me. All of those fears are based in *past* reality, not in the present, and I know this, but it isn't always easy to get the past crap out of my head.

Receiving things like compliments, or offers to listen when I need someone to talk to, or anything like that is even more difficult, and even more likely to make me cry.
 
PinkPig said:
As selfish as my motives for giving can sometimes be, I think I'm worse at receiving! I always feel like I need to "do" something more than just express my gratitude to the giver. As Blue pointed out to me, this is not really fair to the giver! It's an area I'm actively working on.
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As a kind of social/anthropological ... and social-psychological theorist, I'm suspecting that what may be called "the condition of modernity" has robbed most of us "moderns" of any sort of deep grounding in what may be called "gift culture," which was always a major part of all traditional and indigenous cultures. What we moderns have instead is mostly a world of exchange, where "exchange" means -- primarily -- that x can be exchanged for y if y is of roughly equal value, and where x is "given" there is an implicit assumption that giver of x "owes" a y to said giver. This is the basis of debt. So it is a debt culture, I'm saying. This is why so many people are uncomfortable with both giving and receiving. Our culture has almost no place for gift! We are a debt culture. Receiving a gift is seen as a debt to the giver, rather than an opportunity to share and cooperate.

How, then, can we receive a gift? And if we cannot receive a gift, how can we truly give one?
 
KC43 said:
I want the people I care about to be happy and to have their needs met, and I do everything I can to contribute to those things, even if it hurts me to do so.
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I have tended to do this as well. All part of my codependent nature :/ The thing is, for me, this type of giving ends up hurting my relationships in the long run. Because I'm giving out of compulsion, and often, to my detriment, I end up building up resentments, without realizing that I'm doing it. The worst part is that often, my loved ones don't really need or want what I'm giving so I'm building resentments for nothing, lol! And, in the case of my children, I do things that would be better for them to do themselves...in the long run, I think it's been more of a hindrance than a help.

What I'm trying to do now, is be more intentional about giving. Give when I can do so joyously, without expectation. It's difficult. Sometimes I end up not giving, when I otherwise would have, just because I'm less than enthusiastic about doing so. It's happened several times now, even though I've just recently started the practice!

Last thing, on the giving/receiving, I'm finding that in order for me to give enthusiastically, it means I have to feel free to say NO to requests from others or myself. I believe that in order for a gift to truly be a gift, it must be given freely, not out of compulsion :)

Thank you for the reminder, KC. This was something I wanted to discuss in my previous post but forgot :)
 
PinkPig said:
As selfish as my motives for giving can sometimes be, I think I'm worse at receiving! I always feel like I need to "do" something more than just express my gratitude to the giver. As Blue pointed out to me, this is not really fair to the giver! It's an area I'm actively working on.
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According to Charles Eisenstein, who is a marvelous thinker and feeler about such matters, even in a gift culture there is some very specific and unique kind of obligation associated with receiving a gift, but it is a very different kind of obligation (as I understand it) than the obligation of an exchange economy/culture. In an exchange system/culture, the obligation is to give something of roughly equal value to the one who initiated the giving. So -- in an exchange system -- if I give you a crate of apples you may be "obligated" at some point in the future to give me a crate of pears, or walnuts. Or if I look after your kids while you are out to movie and dinner with your spouse you "owe" me [or perhaps my family] (implicitly, not explicitly) roughly equal time in volunteer duties.

But, in a gift culture, If I receive many gifts from members of my community I'm expected -- or obligated -- only to give to the community, be it to this member/family or another one. And this is the main difference! And it is this sense of obligation and belonging in community which most fundamentally distinguishes a gift culture from an exchange economy, as C. Eisenstein speaks of it (as I understand him at the moment).

Eisenstein seems to be saying that any culture where such a giving system is reduced to near non-existence will also be a place where there is not much experience of authentic "community" -- which is a basic human need.

Cultures dominated by exchange tend not to be places where people experience belonging in community, in other words. And one cannot purchase belonging in community, since community is grounded in gifts.
 
River said:
According to Charles Eisenstein, who is a marvelous thinker and feeler about such matters, even in a gift culture there is some very specific and unique kind of obligation associated with receiving a gift, but it is a very different kind of obligation (as I understand it) than the obligation of an exchange economy/culture. In an exchange system/culture, the obligation is to give something of roughly equal value to the one who initiated the giving. So -- in an exchange system -- if I give you a crate of apples you may be "obligated" at some point in the future to give me a crate of pears, or walnuts. Or if I look after your kids while you are out to movie and dinner with your spouse you "owe" me [or perhaps my family] (implicitly, not explicitly) roughly equal time in volunteer duties.

But, in a gift culture, If I receive many gifts from members of my community I'm expected -- or obligated -- only to give to the community, be it to this member/family or another one. And this is the main difference! And it is this sense of obligation and belonging in community which most fundamentally distinguishes a gift culture from an exchange economy, as C. Eisenstein speaks of it (as I understand him at the moment).

Eisenstein seems to be saying that any culture where such a giving system is reduced to near non-existence will also be a place where there is not much experience of authentic "community" -- which is a basic human need.

Cultures dominated by exchange tend not to be places where people experience belonging in community, in other words. And one cannot purchase belonging in community, since community is grounded in gifts.
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So, like 'pay it forward'? That makes sense. Building into the community through giving (and graciously receiving) would theoretically, make the community stronger. And, make the individual relationships among members, stronger since there wouldn't be a tit-for-tat or tally mindset. I wonder if there are less 'users' in a gift economy vs an exchange economy? Would individual members still police others' giving/receiving as frequently as is the custom in the US? I would think it would be harder to do so...so maybe even if the rate of "users" in each type of society is comparable, overall satisfaction and happiness may be higher in a 'gift economy' since members would be less aware of the users? I would assume that members would feel less pressure to reciprocate in a gift economy, and would be more likely to do so when they were in a position to joyfully give, as opposed to giving begrudgingly, which is so common in our culture. Fascinating topic :)
 
River said:
I dwell within a cultural milieu in which, sadly, we as a people don't well understand what giving and receiving are and how they fit together. I suspect it is the fact that our exchange economy has so nearly totally overtaken our culture that we don't know much about what either is -- in relation to gift......We tend even to think of our intimate relationships in exchange terms, rather than gift terms
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MrsBrightside said:
.. there's something about Western culture and capitalism that everyone seems to keep score with their giving and many people seem to think they've been taken advantage of... that they are giving SO much and getting taken advantage of over and over. I don't think that necessarily means we have a culture of takers, just a culture of being scared of giving without getting..
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This is an oft repeated meme about "Western Culture," but in my experience, it just doesn't hold up. There are many instances when people in the US give with no expectation of a return. For instance, the custom of most American subcultures is for individuals to give in many ways when there's been a death - no expectation to get even a thank you note. Certainly many who are affiliated with a church, synagogue, school or community organization regularly give of their time, effort, love and money with no thought to what they'll receive in return. Neighborhoods are fully of mini communities of people who are closely in touch and doing favors all of the time - so much so that they don't even call them favors, they just call it being neighbors. Not sure that I agree with your premise here. The USA is enormous and varied and chock-o-block full of communities and people who very much experience community day to day. I certainly have a strong sense of community, as do most people I know in various parts of the country. There are millions and millions of Americans who do not feel alienated in the way you describe and give as a matter of course without any calculated return.

I'm curious what a specific example of a "gift culture" is, where there is no such thing as expectation in a relationship.


(If you're not looking to debate/discuss your premise, I understand. Please then just continue with your conversation.)
 
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FallenAngelina said:
.... Not sure that I agree with your premise here. The USA is enormous and varied and chock-o-block full of communities and people who very much experience community day to day. I certainly have a strong sense of community, as do most people I know in various parts of the country. There are millions and millions of Americans who do not feel alienated in the way you describe and give as a matter of course without any calculated return.

I'm curious what a specific example of a "gift culture" is, where there is no such thing as expectation in a relationship.


(If you're not looking to debate/discuss your premise, I understand. Please then just continue with your conversation.)
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Well, of course there are a great many perspectives, experiences, viewpoints ... on this as much as any other topic. It's all relative, I suppose. Some people coming from elsewhere will arrive in whatever an average or typical town or city here (if such a thing exists) and find it just outrageously alienating, distancing ... with each having to go it alone.... Others will perhaps find ours a cornucopia of cooperation, sharing and community. The one thing I tend to count on these days is that if you bring a group of people together to discuss anything some will certainly disagree with any basic premise proposed by anyone in the group.

Here's C.E. on community and gift.:


To Build Community, an Economy of Gifts
Charles Eisenstein
http://www.yesmagazine.org/happiness/to-build-community-an-economy-of-gifts

Sacred Economics (2012) - short film by Ian MacKenzie
https://youtu.be/EEZkQv25uEs
 
FallenAngelina said:
I'm curious what a specific example of a "gift culture" is, where there is no such thing as expectation in a relationship.
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I'm certainly no expert on the topic, but my perspective generally is that the older or more "traditional" or indigenous a culture is (or the less 'modern') the more likely that a much higher proportion of what we moderns call "goods and services" belonged to a realm of giving or gift rather than exchange. This is, of course a generalization, but the evidence I've seen upholds it as such.

In his various talks (see YouTube, etc.) books and essays, Charles Eisenstein repeatedly tells a kind of history of the long and gradual replacement of those things which were once gifted with an exchange system. His story certainly resonates with my experience as one who has now lived half a century of history in America. As a child of baby boomers, I was among the first American generations to see certain aspects of life which had previously been treated as gift rather than exchange become appropriated into the exchange economy. An archetypal example is child care. If mama and papa were wanting to go out and have dinner and a movie together, back in the olden days, someone in the neighborhood would simply look after the kids while they did so -- as a gift. When it came time for that person to go out for dinner and a movie, yet another person in the neighborhood would assume the child care role. Later came paid babysitters, then daycare facilities.

The examples are, of course, abundant, but this one serves as an archetype of sorts.

And if you look at "primitive" or indigenousl societies, well little or nothing was done in an exchange mode, with most things being part of a gift culture. Little by little, gift culture was shoved aside and replaced by exchange. At least that's the history as told by folks like David Graeber and Charles Eisenstein.

Child care has been another area of high economic growth in my lifetime. When I was young, it was nothing for friends and neighbors to watch each other’s kids for a few hours after school, a vestige of village or tribal times when children ran free. My ex-wife Patsy speaks movingly of her childhood in rural Taiwan, where children could and did show up at any neighbor’s house around dinner time to be given a bowl of rice. The community took care of the children. In other words, child care was abundant; it would have been impossible to open an after-school day care center. - Charles Eisenstein, from http://sacred-economics.com/sacred-economics-chapter-2-the-illusion-of-scarcity/
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Ah, I see. You're describing a small community of sorts and I see your point that a lot what once was community participation is now a paid service. But I think you idealize "traditional" cultures by saying that community participation equals "no expectations" in relationships. Generally, the smaller the community, the more rigid the relationship roles and arguably, the higher the expectations.

My younger brother married an Eskimo (contrary to another popular belief, not a slur - it's an actual group of native Alaskans) 25 years ago and had 5 kids. They live in her small, remote Alaskan village and life is about as "traditional" and "unmodern" as life can get in the USA. There is a lot of what you're describing as "gift culture" or community participation, yet the relationship roles are extremely rigid. There's a very strong sense of what's expected between husband-wife, mother-daughter, nephew-uncle, etc. and any straying from the norm is grounds for immediate gossip and public and private correction. "What's expected" is a huge part of life and if someone doesn't do his duty, everyone knows about it and does their part to correct the behavior.
 
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FallenAngelina said:
Ah, I see. You're describing a small community of sorts and I see your point that a lot what once was community participation is now a paid service. But I think you idealize "traditional" cultures by saying that community participation equals "no expectations" in relationships. Generally, the smaller the community, the more rigid the relationship roles and arguably, the higher the expectations.

My younger brother married an Eskimo (contrary to another popular belief, not a slur) 25 years ago and had 5 kids. They live in her small, remote Alaskan village and life is about as "traditional" and "unmodern" as life can get in the USA. There is a lot of what you're describing as "gift culture" or community participation, yet the relationship roles are extremely rigid. There's a very strong sense of what's expected between husband-wife, mother-daughter, nephew-uncle, etc. and any straying from the norm is grounds for immediate gossip and public and private correction. "What's expected" is a huge part of life and if someone doesn't do his duty, everyone knows about it and does their part to correct the behavior.
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Actually, I don't think I am "idealizing" traditional or indigenous people in they way you suggest, F.A. And I'm quite aware of the often rather servere and strident expectations small traditional communities can place on people.

One can point out that traditional and indigenous people had more gift in their "economy" than modern people generally do without idealizing the indigenous or traditional societies -- which have often severely curtailed individual uniqueness, freedom and innovation. One can point out that modern people have lost much of what was good in older, traditional societies without suggesting that we should emulate those societies in every way. Etc.

Exactly how obligation functions in market/exchange societies versus societies much more "in the gift" is a very complex and much debated topic in current anthropology and sociology. It takes a while to even begin to know how to engage the topic in an informed way.
 
FallenAngelina said:
OK, so I'll bow out of the convo. I'm just going by my own experience.
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Gosh, I certainly didn't mean my comment to suggest that only scholars and experts have a right to chime in on this! I'm actually an anti-authoritarian, and we anti-authoritarians don't buy into the whole cult of expertise. But we do often recognize and honor genuine expertise where it exists. But our doing so is in no way meant to exclude anyone from a conversation. And your own experience is as valid and important as anyone else's!

Just because I honor and value the perspective of topic area specialists in the sociological and anthropological realms is no reason for you or anyone else to be intimidated or shy in sharing your experience or views; and I honestly don't value the opinions or perspectives of "experts" over anyone else -- provided that all contributors are sincere and authentic in what they say or offer.

Honestly, experts are often the blindest of people. And, rather ironically, sometimes the experts are the first to say so!

"Does it follow that I reject all authority? Far from me such a thought. In the matter of boots, I refer to the authority of the bootmaker; concerning houses, canals, or railroads, I consult that of the architect or the engineer. For such or such special knowledge I apply to such or such a savant. But I allow neither the bootmaker nor the architect nor savant to impose his authority upon me. I listen to them freely and with all the respect merited by their intelligence, their character, their knowledge, reserving always my incontestable right of criticism and censure. I do not content myself with consulting a single authority in any special branch; I consult several; I compare their opinions, and choose that which seems to me the soundest. But I recognise no infallible authority, even in special questions; consequently, whatever respect I may have for the honesty and the sincerity of such or such individual, I have no absolute faith in any person." -- Mikhail Bakunin
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"In my career as a psychologist, I have talked with hundreds of people previously diagnosed by other professionals with oppositional defiant disorder, attention deficit hyperactive disorder, anxiety disorder and other psychiatric illnesses, and I am struck by 1) how many of those diagnosed are essentially anti-authoritarians; and 2) how those professionals who have diagnosed them are not." -- Bruce E. Levine -- http://www.alternet.org/story/15422...sm_is_deemed_a_mental_health_problem?page=0,2
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How do the five love languages relate to the topic of gifting?
 
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