Guidelines & Boundaries vs. Rules: Merged Threads, General Discussion

[whatamIdoing]

I think what I'm still struggling with is the concept that other people have that much impact on our couple rules. I know that sounds horrible and unfair, but I think that's where I am. Honesty is a big part of me, so I have to be honest here. I never considered how other people would be able to have an impact on our rules and boundaries for THEIR comfort level. So complex here.

 

[redpepper]

Well, there is much more merging in poly than in swinging, (I started a thread on merging once. I wonder if that would help.) The emotional component is a much larger and more important component than sex. The depth and connection is perhaps more as a result. Swinging doesn't involve love. In fact, saying "I love you" is quite often a firm rule. In poly, love comes first. It's not a friendship with sex on the side. It's a romance, a love affair. It's partnership. Much different.

 

[whatamIdoing]

There is much more merging in poly than swinging. (I started a thread on merging once. I wonder if that would help.) The emotional component is a much larger and more important component than sex. The depth and connection is perhaps more as a result. Swinging doesn't involve love. In fact, saying "I love you" is quite often a firm rule. In poly, love comes first. It's not a friendship with sex on the side. It's a romance, a love affair, a partnership.

I think the thread on merging would be good. I will try to find it.

It's the emotional component that's wrecking my husband. His stability and his comfort are sorely challenged at this point.

What has led me here is that I have started to have feelings for J, feelings that I did not expect. I am not sure what they are or where they are going, and I don't know how to deal with that.

Our rules have to change now. We never had to have the "I love you" rule. We never had to have the "no overnights" rule. None of those things were ever issues. But everything is so UNSETTLED right now, and all I keep hearing is "rules are made to be broken."

Emotions are running high in all aspects of our lives right now...

 

[redpepper]

It's great you are doing so much work. Trying to remember there is no rush might help. Get used to each step before moving forward. There is lots of time, and adjusting will make things a lot more comfortable, I think.

 

[whatamIdoing]

It's great you are doing so much work. Trying to remember there is no rush might help. Get used to each step before moving forward. There is lots of time, and adjusting will make things a lot more comfortable, I think.

And that, my dear Redpepper, is one of the best things I've heard. I guess I do tend to rush things... Slowly, ever so slowly...

I found your thread on merging and it did help! You are very very kind and helpful and I truly appreciate it.

 

[erithacus]

boundaries - when are they ethical, when aren't they

Hi everyone,

I'd like your opinions on a major discussion point between my poly wife and mono me. The question is about boundaries:

When is it acceptable to unilaterally set a boundary? Where does this change from 'asking for respect for a personal preference/problem/value/issue' to 'denying the other person to fully express himself/herself'?

Opinions?

robin

 

[erithacus]

To answer my own question:

When setting a boundary, I think you need to balance the comfort you give up for yourself with the freedom you take away from the other. It is very important that these things should be valued by the persons to whom they apply. E.g., when setting a boundary for my partner, I should be the one that values the comfort I have to give up, but my partner should be the one to value the freedom that she has to give up. Only after communicating very clearly can you ensure these are balanced.

As long as there is balance, the boundary is ethical. When I try to take away too much freedom, or when I have to give up too much comfort, one of the partners gets an unfair deal.

That said, this answer is not working for the relationship I'm in, so I'd like to hear from others, and learn something.

Thanks!
robin

 

[redpepper]

As long as there is balance, the boundary is ethical. When I try to take away too much freedom, or when I have to give up too much comfort, one of the partners gets an unfair deal.

This. I would suggest that if it's not working, then you aren't finished negotiating. Of course, NRE can get in the way for a good long time, so that boundary might have to be renegotiated constantly. No biggy. Just sit down and get comfy with that.

Relationships, in general, are a series of negotiations. Poly isn't different, just more intense, and negotiations happen more often. It can seem like too much at the beginning, but in time, and with practice, the communication flows. Comfort comes when there is a solid foundation to work from. This why poly foundations are so important. (We wrote a thread on that.) For me, they are respectful communication, integrity, empathy and honesty.

 

[erithacus]

If it's not working, then you aren't finished negotiating.

Thank you, Redpepper. This is very true. The reason I started this thread is that we have trouble negotiating. I have the feeling that whenever I ask for a boundary, or demand one, I am being accused of unethically holding back my partner. I hear arguments like 'This is just the way I am,' 'I want the freedom to express my feelings,' and 'You are controlling my life,' whenever the subject of boundaries (or even just taking things slow, for that matter) comes up. I have one big need that is not getting met, and that is time to adjust. I don't mean time where nothing happens, but I do mean time where not everything is happening all at once.

But to get back on topic: the fundamental difference in our (my partner's and my) opinions is the question of when a boundary is ethical and when it isn't.

 

[MindfulAgony]

In my view, not everything is negotiable. Things that are not negotiable (I call them needs) are what I use to set boundaries. Things that are negotiable (I call them wants) are used in the give and take to complete whatever the contract is.

I work hard to separate my needs from my wants. The only thing that would make my needs unethical is if they were generally unethical (e.g., called for murder, inflicting intentional harm, etc.).

So, if my needs themselves aren't unethical with respect to setting boundaries, then it is how I handle those needs that might make them unethical. For example, if I hid them while acting upon them, and used them as an excuse for breaking the rules of a particular agreement.

The trick to retaining your integrity is to communicate your needs as early as is reasonable and set the relationship on that solid ground. Selfishness doesn't come into the picture. If our respective needs are incompatible, the relationship never starts, or doesn't develop beyond the initial exploration stage.

 

[MindfulAgony]

The reason I started this thread was that we have trouble negotiating. I have the feeling that whenever I ask for a boundary, or demand one, I am being accused of unethically holding back my partner. I hear arguments like 'This is just the way I am', 'I want the freedom to express my feelings', 'You are controlling my life' whenever the subject of boundaries (or even just taking things slow, for that matter) comes up. I have one big need that is not getting met, and that is time to adjust.

The fundamental difference in our (my partners and mine) opinions is the question of when a boundary is ethical and when it isn't.

Based on what you're saying, I wouldn't call your needs unethical, even if they do infringe on someone else's needs. But you may be running into a core incompatibility, if what you're struggling with is actually a need and isn't masking something else more fundamental.

It seems that when something conflicts with our own values, we can all too easily accuse someone else of being unethical, when in reality, differences in core values are a relatively common occurrence. It is possible, with re-examination, for us to challenge and subsequently change our core values. But it's a low-probability event. I wouldn't bet on such a thing.

If I were in your position, I would try to unravel these issues so that I could get beyond the language of "your needs for certain boundaries are unethical."

 

[preciselove]

It seems that when something conflicts with our own values, we can all too easily accuse someone else of being unethical, when in reality, differences in core values are a relatively common occurrence. It is possible for us to challenge and subsequently change our core values.

I like how you have written this. Too many people forget that our values can be changed and not everything we think we need is actually a "need." Most of the time it's a want, especially in relationships.

The best way to know whether a boundary, or whatever, is going to work is to see if it's logical or not. If someone can present a coherent, logical argument on why they do or don't want something, then I'll listen. If all they give me is "I feel like this," then I'm less likely to consider it until they have had more time to think more about it. This is how you grow. This is how you move past your old childhood issues and reprogram yourself into a better human. And I question myself like this also.

"Feeling" is a weak way to explain something. If they told you, "I've just got this feeling that we'll win the lottery next week, so let's use the mortgage payment for a big-screen TV," you wouldn't be like, "Okay, honey."

 

[ray]

I'm not sure I can go along with that analogy. Sometimes we need something and there may not be a rational reason why. I'm all for being logical and coherent, but relationships and human beings can't always be quantified and rationalized. Feeling is not weaker than logic, it's just different.

There also is a difference between stupidity and feeling. There is just as much idiotic, incorrect logic out there as there are stupid actions based on feelings.

For instance, if you are a musician, and all you have is logic, your music may have great technical proficiency, but it will be fairly empty. As a person that is primarily motivated by feeling, I am still able to recognize the importance of logic. But I think people can be quick to dismiss feelings as weak and frustrating. I think it's perfectly reasonable, if a couple is starting out in poly, and negotiating boundaries, one of them says, "I know it's illogical, but I would really appreciate it if you wouldn't use the same pet name for your OSO as you do for me."

I would imagine that as you progress you may find yourself needing fewer "illogical" boundaries, but that doesn't mean they're not valid when you need them.

 

[IndieSolo]

I trust someone's intuition/gut instincts (which comes from the nerve ganglion in the solar plexus) more than their logic! Logic is needed for certain situations, to be sure, but in matters of the heart, such as relationships, I feel it is very important to honor someone's feelings, and not just demand that they comply with my system of rationalization.

 

[preciselove]

I think it's perfectly reasonable if a couple is starting out in poly, and when they negotiate boundaries, one of them says, I know it's illogical, but I would really appreciate it if you wouldn't use the same pet name for your OSO as you do for me. I would imagine as you progress you may find yourself needing less of the 'illogical' boundaries, but that doesn't mean they're not valid when you need them.

I don't find your scenario illogical, though. Using different names for people helps you identify them quicker, That is one thing I would expect my gf to say to me if she has a problem with it. It's also not illogical to want to feel special, as that is a basic human characteristic that we cannot change. So if they said this also, I would be fine with it, in this particular case.

If people can't explain to me why they feel a certain way, then they shouldn't be talking to me about it, as that's just a waste of energy. This idea that as soon as we feel something we must act upon it, or tell somebody, is about as damaging as you can get for a relationship. If I made sure that every thought I had was spoken to everyone around me, I wouldn't have anyone in my life.

Most negative "feelings" that people want to express to you are born from a cultural programming most of us received growing up. Since this culture is on the verge of collapse, we do not need to entertain most of those feelings, do we?

Of course, this is all based on the premise the people involved aren't assholes/selfish/stupid/willfully ignorant/etc., and going from my experiences with people, that's hard to find. I know that most of my advice is probably worthless to the average person.

 

[ray]

I'm not sure I follow your use of terms.

You appear to be saying that you feel frustrated when people try to discuss things in the heat of the moment, before they've figured out what they're thinking/feeling, and therefore, you have issues with people acting impulsively. I can understand that. But when you say that you don't want to waste your energy on talking to some one who doesn't understand their feelings, I find that to be off-putting. Feelings can be hard to understand, and I know sometimes I can use help sorting them out. Perhaps I misunderstand you.

"Most negative 'feelings' that people want to express to you are born from a cultural programming most of us received growing up. Since this culture is on the verge of collapse, we do not need to entertain most of those feelings, do we?"

I'm not sure I agree with this statement. It sounds like throwing the baby out with the bath water. I recognize that many of us wish to change and reprogram certain cultural practices and feelings.

What do you mean by the first sentence? I can think of lots of negative feelings that have little to do with cultural programming. And I think if you want to have healthy meaningful relationships, sometimes you need to entertain feelings of all kinds. Whether or not they become permanent house guests is another thing. Relationships are not all about efficiency. If I had feelings and my partner were to tell me that he didn't wish to entertain them, or discuss them, because they were antiquated, I would be incredibly hurt, and very likely not want to stay in the relationship.

I suppose my beef is that I feel like you're saying that you don't care to discuss your partner's feelings if you deem them to be a waste of time. Let me know if I am off.

 

[preciselove]

And therefore saying you have issues with people acting impulsively?

Yes, I don't like people acting on impulse when it comes to such things.

When you say that you don't want to waste your energy on talking to someone who doesn't understand their feelings I find that to be off-putting. Feelings can be hard to understand, and I know sometimes I can use help sorting them out.

If someone comes to me with, "I want to talk about something I'm feeling," that is a different thing than, "I feel this way, so I want you to do blah blah," with no explanation.

Basically, I don't like people reaching conclusions based on crappy ideas or feelings they haven't processed. If they want help to reach a conclusion, then I'll do my best. I do enjoy hearing about how people did process things themselves and came to certain conclusions.

"I felt like X when I saw you do Y with Jane. But after I thought about it I realized Z."

 

[Mohegan]

To me, this is different in each relationship. And one thing, I think, that made it easier on Karma was to know these boundaries would eventually change.

Currently our boundaries follow our rule of "Happy, healthy and sane," for all parties involved. In the beginning, the boundaries were tight because Karma and Cricket were both trying to rebuild trust with me. I needed to know I could trust them, individually and as a couple. So the boundaries, or rules, as we called them, were tight-- no seeing each other without me there, physical contact was limited, phone calls and e-mails were subject to me being there. No hiding. To me, they lost the right to privacy when they had the affair. As the trust grew, I pulled back on a LOT of that. They were allowed to drive her home without me there, they were allowed to go to a friend's house without me, I stopped reading every e-mail, I encouraged physical contact, even sleepovers (though I had a hard time with that, as I pushed it a little too soon). And we instituted the 24 hour rule-- as long as I had 24 hours notice, they could have visits without me. Eventually it became only about respect and safety.

Our boundaries now include honesty, respect (do I have plans? am I feeling okay? and me respecting them and their plans), and safety. Happy, healthy, sane, as we call it. As long as we are all happy, healthy and sane, it's okay. If not, then it's required we sit down and find out what the issue is and how to fix it.

So, after that long explanation of where we are, my question is, what boundaries are you setting that she feels are getting in the way of who she is?

As was said by someone else, if they are your NEEDS, then they need to be respected, but you also need to respect hers.

Compromise is a huge part of making this work. I believe in compromise, not sacrifice. I think if compromise and communication are an issue, it's time to analyze your relationship, as it stands.

Karma and I are far from perfect, but communication and respect of each other's thoughts and feelings have made all the difference in making this work.

 

[redpepper]

The thing with negotiating boundaries is that you need to compromise until you find the edge of the boundary, the place where if it goes one step further you will be pushed over the edge. When that compromising feeling is gone, you have found your boundary.

I find I ludicrous to stop negotiating with her saying that she wants her freedom and right to do whatever, because it's her life. It isn't just about her. Part of negotiating is to empathize, respect other's feelings, and not be selfish. She is not doing these things, it sounds like.

When Mono told me that under no circumstances would he stay with me if I added another man to my life, I had some hard decisions to make. He was asking me to compromise, and I did. I thought my freedom was taken away from me, my right to do what I want, all of that "need" stuff, but I decided that I would move forward and offer something that I could live with. I asked him to compromise too, and he did. He decided that he could live with me finding connections with other men (the underlying "need" to be able to connect with people), but not ones that involved sex. We continue to explore this negotiation and to compromise. We may always do this; I don't know.

The point is that no one person gets to call the shots, and no one person gets to say what is ethically "right." It has to be agreed upon, as far as I'm concerned. Someone in NRE whining because it isn't fair that they have a partner who is struggling and asking for it all to go slower isn't the one who gets to call all the shots. This isn't monogamy. In mono relationships there is no boundary negotiation like in poly, I think. You get to spend as much time with your partner as you both decide. In poly you get to spend as much time and have as much sex as EVERYONE decides. Not the one at the hinge, at least not usually, anyway.

 

[MindfulAgony]

The thing with negotiating boundaries is that you need to compromise until you find the edge of the boundary; the place where if it goes one step further you will be pushed over the edge. When that compromising feeling is gone, you have found your boundary.

This is an excellent way of putting it.

My wife and I negotiated boundaries. I was trying to deal with the realization that I needed a return to poly and she was struggling to manage that return for us. Poly was pre-marriage, pre-kids for us, and she viewed it more as youthful experimentation, not a way to make a life (even thought we were both in our 30s lol).

My wife didn't realize this immediately. We tried to negotiate to that boundary. But she hit that edge, as RP puts it, and hit it hard. Her language was that she felt like she was losing who she was, giving too much of herself, which I understood completely.

It was hard because she (we) desperately wanted to stay in the marriage. After three years of trying to figure out the right configuration, right boundaries, and ways to maintain respect, safety, and meet each other's needs, we were both at our edge. Ultimately, you can't destroy yourself in order to save a marriage. Doesn't work. When you're at your edge, it certainly feels like something dear is at risk.

Sometimes are edges are incompatible. It's not unethical or selfish to discover and act upon that. Selfishness and unethical behavior can result if we deal poorly with that discovery (something that I, unfortunately, have experience with, as well). But those are two different things.