Having trouble with kink acceptance

[Emm]

TL,DR: Any suggestions for how a mostly vanilla person can get over her gut reaction to the bruises her sadistic boyfriend causes to his masochistic play partner?

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My boyfriend of 8 years or so (the last 5 of which have been long distance) expressed an interest in tying people up some time ago, which I’ve taken advantage of every time we’ve ended up on the same side of the country since. He has been going to rope workshops and—since his wife has no interest in it—has been playing casually with a regular local partner for the last year or so.

So far, so good.

He recently mentioned that he’d discovered a previously unsuspected sadistic side which meshed perfectly with his play partner’s masochistic streak. Ok, not my kink, but if it works for him, great!

A few weeks ago while visiting me, I asked him to stop tickling me while we were in bed together. He tickled me a couple more times, asking “What about like this? Or like this?” until I told him firmly to cut it out (apparently it’s quite clear when I really mean it). A few hours later I realised I’d suddenly developed kink-related trust issues, because while tickling is very minor in the scheme of things, I’d found myself tied to my bed by a sadist who had unexpectedly demonstrated that he won’t always take “no” for an answer.

We discussed what had happened, and it turned out that he didn’t realise that what he was doing during the “what about like this?” part was actually still tickling me, and from his perspective he’d stopped when asked and only continued teasing me about tickling rather than doing it. He thanked me for bringing it up rather than stewing on it, and assured me that he knew I wasn’t interested in seeing his sadistic side or doing anything that involved deliberate pain.

Later that day he sent me a link to an article on fetlife about his brand of sadism and why it’s not something I need to worry about, so I logged in (to the blank account I’d made 5-10 years ago and promptly forgotten about – hooray for the long-term use of password mnemonics) to read it, then figured I might as well friend him while I was there and read some of the other writings he’d liked. Still all good… right? We both added the other to our “polyamorous with” fields, and he flew back east.

When I was looking around on his profile a couple of days later I saw photos (posted weeks earlier) of the bruises his play partner credited him with creating. I know he did it with her full and enthusiastic consent. I know that she enjoyed it. I know that neither of them considers the bruising to be “harm”, although it must have prevented her sitting comfortably for at least a week.

In my mind that amount and depth of bruising is an injury; an injury caused by someone I’ve only ever known as a gentle snuggler. I don’t know if I can let the same hands responsible for causing bruising like that touch me when I next see him, and it seems a little silly to spend 4 hours on a plane just to find out if I’m going to nope out at the last minute or not, especially if there are still any residual trust issues lurking over the tickling thing.

I know it’s my issue to deal with, but I’m not sure where to start. Suggestions, anyone?

 

[ElMango]

THis may get long! Sorry in advanced!

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A few weeks ago while visiting me, I asked him to stop tickling me while we were in bed together. He tickled me a couple more times, asking “What about like this? Or like this?” until I told him firmly to cut it out (apparently it’s quite clear when I really mean it). A few hours later I realised I’d suddenly developed kink-related trust issues, because while tickling is very minor in the scheme of things, I’d found myself tied to my bed by a sadist who had unexpectedly demonstrated that he won’t always take “no” for an answer.

Let me start with ignoring a 'no' is not okay, and is, in the kink community, not part of the "SAFE, SANE, CONSENSUAL" Motto. The only exception is, when previously agreed upon, "no" isn't a "no" until someone uses a safeword. If he is new to kink, he may have (imo still unacceptably) got into the moment and ignored this rule or was very ignorant of it. Still not okay.

Some advice I'd give for you and him, when doing any kink play (I'm pretty kinky and subby and masochistic myself) is to GO SLOW and use the "red, yellow, green" method. Like with the traffic lights, 'green' = I'm good, "yellow" means slow down/need a break, "red"=hard stop now. I use it with sadistic hubby, and he makes sure to check in and watch my body language to make sure I'm not distracted etc.
Everyone bears a responsibility, but the "dom" / "sadist" needs to really be on the ball.

Of course you'd develop trust issues! He broke your trust and consent!

We discussed what had happened, and it turned out that he didn’t realise that what he was doing during the “what about like this?” part was actually still tickling me, and from his perspective he’d stopped when asked and only continued teasing me about tickling rather than doing it. He thanked me for bringing it up rather than stewing on it, and assured me that he knew I wasn’t interested in seeing his sadistic side or doing anything that involved deliberate pain.

Again, he ignored a no and kept tickling. He should have asked right after the no if you were wanting the same type of behaviour.

Later that day he sent me a link to an article on fetlife about his brand of sadism and why it’s not something I need to worry about, so I logged in (to the blank account I’d made 5-10 years ago and promptly forgotten about – hooray for the long-term use of password mnemonics) to read it, then figured I might as well friend him while I was there and read some of the other writings he’d liked. Still all good… right? We both added the other to our “polyamorous with” fields, and he flew back east.

Again ehhhhh, it's still okay in general, but the more important thing was did it feel okay to you? Did it feel like him sending that link to explain his type of sadism feel appropriate? Would you have rather he was more personal and explained it to you himself?

When I was looking around on his profile a couple of days later I saw photos ( of the bruises his play partner credited him with creating. I know he did it with her full and enthusiastic consent.

In my mind that amount and depth of bruising is an injury; an injury caused by someone I’ve only ever known as a gentle snuggler. I don’t know if I can let the same hands responsible for causing bruising like that touch me when I next see him, and it seems a little silly to spend 4 hours on a plane just to find out if I’m going to nope out at the last minute or not, especially if there are still any residual trust issues lurking over the tickling thing.

Understandable. bruising, however much wanted and/or craved, is still an injury. My butt doesn't bruise within my pain limits. Some peoples basically refuse to bruise at all. He had her consent, and that is the most important thing about that kink relationships injury level. Aftercare is an important part of kink; basically one of the most important parts. It's an injury; it's just a wanted one. Maybe thinking of it like that would help?

As for having him touch you and not sure if you want him to. The set a limit of what you want; it can be temporary, or permanent; he broke your trust. He needs to work to build it back. If you fly 4 hours to only cuddle, are you okay with that? And is he? If not, I'd view that as a red flag. What you need from a sexual/romantic relationship is important too!

Just because he wants the kink i your sexual relationship, doesn't mean you have to do it. What is rough and kinky for you may be very vanilla to others. That doesn't negate how kinky it is for you. That idea may be helpful for him in processing how his sadistic side works. if your kink limit is low, and him tickling for example (up to your limit of course) counts as sadism...then it's sadism.

I know it’s my issue to deal with, but I’m not sure where to start. Suggestions, anyone?

Relationships are teamwork. It's not just on you, espcially as the non-kink person, to just figure this out. Yes doing your own research is always a helpful thing and does allow you to go more at your own pace. But, he should still be an active participant in the learning process.

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My partner B is a minor masochist. Very minor; he is more like you for gentle play and he enjoys teasing. So, we respect each others boundaries for that. For him, light spanking or even something like orgasm denial counts as teasing to him because it's teasing to me. If that makes sense?
For us, we playfully tickle a lot; it almost doesn't have the tickle sensation at all. It's just for having fun and giggling! That a lot of the time is our foreplay!

My partner Z and I have spanking and some degrading insults (only the ones I consent to! Some I hate and make me really uncomfortable) and only to the amount we're both comfortable with. He's a sadist; so for him, I'm setting more limits than he is. He can't feel when things hurt too much for me.

I hope that helps!

 

[opalescent]

I've got a few thoughts. Hopefully some will be useful to you.

First, it's totally ok to be repulsed and disturbed by other's kinks. There are so many things in kink land I do not understand at all, and many I just find incredibly disturbing.

One way I deal with this is that I don't look at things I find disturbing. You didn't 'snoop' as you had consent to be friends on a kink site but you did see things you really would have rather not. You found out something about your partner that you really didn't want to know. You can't unsee what you saw but you know what, 'out of sight, out of mind' is a legit strategy to use in this situation. If you can, don't look at his or his play partner's photos again. You may need to unfriend him (or her - not sure if you friended her too) so you don't see those types of photos. I don't enjoy watching my partners have sex or kink scene with others - so I don't watch or look at photos or videos of them doing so. This works well for me.

I'd also suggest having more detailed conversations with him about the not stopping tickling incident. I get why that incident so disturbed you. It's really scary to be tied up/restrained and realize that the person you are interacting with may not stop when you want them to. I don't get the sense that he meant to violate your consent. However, what I find potentially very troublesome is that he wasn't aware of what he was physically doing to you. I'd really dig into that with him. Is he generally aware and conscious around you? Does he seem to pay attention and be present in general? If so, this may have been just a lapse that we all have. But if it's a general pattern that he is somewhat unconscious of what he is doing, then that needs addressing.

 

[Emm]

He'd mentioned months ago that his play partner likes to be marked, and we'd discussed how much trouble he'd had reconciling his discovery that he enjoys that type of activity with his self identity as a big cuddly teddy bear type who wouldn't hurt a fly. Intellectually I knew it was going on, but actually seeing the extent of it in the photos was confronting.

I'm sure the tickling thing was a lapse rather than deliberate (not helped by the fact that when I get in a particular mood sometimes everything becomes ticklish), and he knows I'm not into pain and is happy to avoid anything along those lines with me. I do trust him, but I've ended up in a situation where a couple of small things have lined up in such a way as to amplify my reaction out of all proportion. Rationally I know I have nothing to fear from him in terms of personal safety, but now it's my turn to reconcile the gentle man I love with the sadist who can beat someone black and blue, and it's harder than I expected.

 

[ElMango]

That's super understandable! Reconciling things is always hard, and I'm sorry I don't have any super firm or other advice besides what's already been said.

The only thing I can think of as well is really working on some mindfulness to help process things. Sometimes we do just need time to think and process. Kink can be overwhelming even for people who practice it, and things do take practice. If you ever wanna 1 on 1 chat I'm here anytime.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Emm,

I'm very vanilla, and I find the sight of severe bruising to be quite disturbing. When I see a thumbnail of something like that on FetLife, I promptly scroll past it, I would rather not see it. I don't know how well I would handle it if I knew it was my partner who was causing that bruising.

From what you said in your first post, I gather that you are okay with your boyfriend tying you up, but you do not want him to tickle you, and you definitely don't want him to hurt you. Please correct me if I misunderstood any of that. If you do engage in rope play with him, I think it would be a good idea do adopt a green/yellow/red safeword system.

In the meantime, you are contemplating a four-hour plane ride for to visit him, and before you commit to that, I think you should have a long talk with him over the phone (or by email). Tell him that you don't know whether you will be okay with him touching you in the future, ask him how he feels about that and whether it affects how he feels about you coming out to visit him. How you feel about coming out to visit him also matters, of course.

It may be that you will get feeling better about things if you just have time to detox. The sight of those bruises is too raw for you right now, you need some time to try to put those out of your mind. I suggest you hold off on visiting him until you start to feel a little less traumatized by the whole thing. And it is okay to feel traumatized, you experienced some things that are outside of your safe zone. I do think he should have stopped tickling you the first time you said "No," but maybe that is water under the bridge?

Hopefully this thread so far has helped.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[Emm]

Thank you all for your advice and opinions; it's helping me organise my thoughts.

I'll expand on some things and answer questions when I'm not replying on a phone, but I want to clarify that what I actually said during the tickling incident was more along the lines of "please don't do that" rather than "No!", and that I included a description of it not because I felt directly threatened but because I think it contributed to my overall level of angst when added to the rest of the equation.

 

[Emm]

Let me start with ignoring a 'no' is not okay, and is, in the kink community, not part of the "SAFE, SANE, CONSENSUAL" Motto.

Although it makes no difference in a safeword context, he's a proponent of RACK rather than SSC, due in part to his own issues with the use of the word "safe" when talking about deliberately inflicting pain and/or injury.

The only exception is, when previously agreed upon, "no" isn't a "no" until someone uses a safeword. If he is new to kink, he may have (imo still unacceptably) got into the moment and ignored this rule or was very ignorant of it. Still not okay.

Some advice I'd give for you and him, when doing any kink play (I'm pretty kinky and subby and masochistic myself) is to GO SLOW and use the "red, yellow, green" method.

He’s always been very careful about enthusiastic consent, and was appalled when he realised how things had looked from my point of view. The traffic light system is something we've often spoken of, but neither of us has ever had to call yellow or red, and in this particular case being tickled didn’t seem worth invoking it. If I’d realised at the time how strongly it’d stick in my mind I might have chosen differently.

Later that day he sent me a link to an article on fetlife about his brand of sadism and why it’s not something I need to worry about, so I logged in (to the blank account I’d made 5-10 years ago and promptly forgotten about – hooray for the long-term use of password mnemonics) to read it, then figured I might as well friend him while I was there and read some of the other writings he’d liked. Still all good… right? We both added the other to our “polyamorous with” fields, and he flew back east.

Again ehhhhh, it's still okay in general, but the more important thing was did it feel okay to you? Did it feel like him sending that link to explain his type of sadism feel appropriate? Would you have rather he was more personal and explained it to you himself?

This was after we’d discussed it at some length already; he simply felt that it explained the “shared excitement at helping you grow” aspect of how the two of them approach S&M better than he could.

It's an injury; it's just a wanted one. Maybe thinking of it like that would help?

On an intellectual level, yes, which is why I didn’t think I’d have any problems looking at the pictures, although I was really just hoping to see the pretty ropework. It seems that my gut reaction was quite different.

As for having him touch you and not sure if you want him to. The set a limit of what you want; it can be temporary, or permanent; he broke your trust. He needs to work to build it back. If you fly 4 hours to only cuddle, are you okay with that? And is he? If not, I'd view that as a red flag. What you need from a sexual/romantic relationship is important too!

Just because he wants the kink i your sexual relationship, doesn't mean you have to do it.

He’s happy to stay entirely vanilla with me if that’s what I want, so I don’t feel he’s trying to pressure me into anything I wouldn’t otherwise want to do. I'm starting to think that my main issue is that it feels a bit like he's not the person I've thought he was for the past 8 years, with maybe a side serving of drama queen (edit: on my part).

I hope that helps!

It does. Thank you.

 

[Emm]

If you can, don't look at his or his play partner's photos again.

That's the plan for now.

I'd also suggest having more detailed conversations with him about the not stopping tickling incident. I get why that incident so disturbed you. It's really scary to be tied up/restrained and realize that the person you are interacting with may not stop when you want them to.

The discussion we had when I brought it up was reassuring. He thanked me for raising the issue, acknowledged what I said, apologised, explained how it had looked from his side and how he'd misunderstood the situation (without coming across as an attempt to justify anything), and talked about what he'd do to avoid any repeats.

I don't get the sense that he meant to violate your consent. However, what I find potentially very troublesome is that he wasn't aware of what he was physically doing to you. I'd really dig into that with him. Is he generally aware and conscious around you? Does he seem to pay attention and be present in general?

At times I get so ticklish that looking at me sideways is almost enough to set me off. With anyone else what he did probably wouldn't have registered as a tickle.

 

[Emm]

From what you said in your first post, I gather that you are okay with your boyfriend tying you up, but you do not want him to tickle you, and you definitely don't want him to hurt you.

Pretty much. I enjoy the ropework and would like to be comfortable doing it again sooner rather than later. Tickling isn't an issue in itself; it just happened to be what contributed to me overthinking it all in this particular case.

In the meantime, you are contemplating a four-hour plane ride to visit him, and before you commit to that, I think you should have a long talk with him over the phone (or by email).

We usually only get to spend time together in person every few months so it will be a little while before the next visit. I don't want to start planning anything until I sort my shit out, and will definitely have time to talk it through with him before then.

Hopefully this thread so far has helped.

It has, thank you.

 

[kdt26417]

It sounds like you are getting your thoughts organized, and feeling somewhat better about the situation. That's a good sign.

 

[Tinwen]

We usually only get to spend time together in person every few months so it will be a little while before the next visit.

I think this is probably a part of the issue. Accidents like the tickling usually don't stick when partners are close, because they get sorted out more effectively, and because the other person's touch is reassuring.

As for the bruises... yeah, better not to look at their photo's again. Also, often bruises look worse then they feel, and after some time they become difficult to make. If she likes it... and is a regular spanker... he probably had to try hard to please her

 

[Spork]

I think this is probably a part of the issue. Accidents like the tickling usually don't stick when partners are close, because they get sorted out more effectively, and because the other person's touch is reassuring.

As for the bruises... yeah, better not to look at their photo's again. Also, often bruises look worse then they feel, and after some time they become difficult to make. If she likes it... and is a regular spanker... he probably had to try hard to please her

Yes, I was thinking this.

I am on the opposite side of this from you, OP, I love bruises. I like having a reminder thing, I can not only show but poke and get a tiny brain chemical rush with the reminder of the play that put it there. It's a very positive thing for me.

But my bottom almost never bruises anymore.

And I'd also say that the extent of bruising often has WAY more to do with the bottom's skin and flesh and how it will react, than to the actual extremity of the activity itself. So I've seen some bruises and thought "whoa...must have been hardcore pain to get that" but in fact, probably what caused it could be done to me without making a mark that lasted more than a few hours.

But you know what most Sadists I know are getting out of it? The marvel of causing a wanted reaction in a consenting partner. It's not the glee of being just...mean. The way a bottom might squeak or cry out in a scene gives the same rush as the way you might cry out or make sounds of pleasure during something more sexual or sensation based.

So if there is any element at all, of "that's what he really wants, not what I have to offer, but THAT"...(and maybe I'm projecting but I know a bit about how that one feels)...try to let go of it. That's what poly is for, and just because he CAN get something out of that won't mean he doesn't get gratification out of what you do, if it's a hard limit for you. If that makes sense?

 

[Emm]

Also, often bruises look worse then they feel, and after some time they become difficult to make. If she likes it... and is a regular spanker... he probably had to try hard to please her

And I'd also say that the extent of bruising often has WAY more to do with the bottom's skin and flesh and how it will react, than to the actual extremity of the activity itself.

One of the photos was captioned with "So I literally broke a cane on (playpartner)'s butt." The cane in question looked almost as thick as my thumb.

So if there is any element at all, of "that's what he really wants, not what I have to offer, but THAT"...(and maybe I'm projecting but I know a bit about how that one feels)...try to let go of it.

I don't think that's been more than a passing thought, but I'll keep an eye out for it. Thanks for the suggestion

 

[Tinwen]

One of the photos was captioned with "So I literally broke a cane on (playpartner)'s butt." The cane in question looked almost as thick as my thumb.

Well, ok, people sometimes do extreme stuff.

The one time we broke a cane... we were fighting a bit, and I took it from my partner, and then wanted to hit him. But it broke. In the air. No idea how or why

(Ok, that was just my funny story association, not meant to belittle yours, I hope you can reconcile.)

 

[Emm]

I hadn't considered equipment failure as a contributing factor.

 

[ElMango]

I hadn't considered equipment failure as a contributing factor.

I had a spanking implement break and it really shouldn't have. We had duplicates and they had handled way more. SOmetimes you have a naturally weak one, or catch just the wrong angle and physics decides to take control of the wheel. Canes that are made of natural things need care especially to keep them from getting brittle. If it's brittle it'll snap easier.
Sometimes, it's kinda like when you stand under hot water for a long time, at a certain point the original heat of the water doesn't feel so hot. Your skin kinda numbs out and you get used to a certain pain threshold.

I hadn't been spanked with a paddle in ages and today I was. It didn't take much at all to sting and create redness. Other times it's taken ages to get the same affect. My skin doesn't bruise on my butt even if I fell on it full body weight. My legs and arm bruise like peaches.